Odonata

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Recent Postings from
Odonata

Updated on Wednesday, September 1 at 07:03 PM ET
The most recently received Mail is at the top.

1 Sep Russet-tipped Clubtail (S. plagiatus) = RFI [Darrin O'Brien ]
31 Aug Re: Help with ID [Jim Johnson ]
31 Aug Help with ID [Larry Little ]
30 Aug Re: [CalOdes] Fwd: dragonfly migration ["George L. Harp" ]
29 Aug Re: (Fwd) Dragonfly [Mass Flight on South CentralOregonCoast] [mike.averill ]
27 Aug Re: Fwd: dragonfly migration [Terry Morse ]
27 Aug Re: [CalOdes] Fwd: dragonfly migration [Kathy &/or Dave Biggs ]
27 Aug Re: Fwd: dragonfly migration [Kathy &/or Dave Biggs ]
27 Aug Fwd: dragonfly migration [Dennis Paulson ]
27 Aug Fwd: dragonfly migration [Dennis Paulson ]
27 Aug Re: (Fwd) Dragonfly [Mass Flight on South CentralOregonCoast] [Marion Dobbs ]
26 Aug Re: newbie ids please? [william ]
25 Aug Re: newbie ids please? [Joshua Rose ]
25 Aug Re: newbie ids please? [Steve Hummel ]
25 Aug newbie ids please? [william ]
25 Aug Fw: Stereo microscope question. ["Frederico A.A. Lencioni" ]
25 Aug Re: (Fwd) Dragonfly [Mass Flight on South CentralOregonCoast []
25 Aug Re: (Fwd) Dragonfly [Mass Flight on South CentralOregonCoast] [Dennis Paulson ]
25 Aug Re: (Fwd) Dragonfly [Mass Flight on South CentralOregonCoast] [Ann Johnson ]
25 Aug Re: (Fwd) Dragonfly [Mass Flight on South CentralOregonCoast] []
25 Aug Re: (Fwd) Dragonfly [Mass Flight on South CentralOregonCoast] [Mike May ]
24 Aug Re: (Fwd) Dragonfly [Mass Flight on South Central OregonCoast] [Chris Hill ]
24 Aug Dragonfly mass flight in Kansas ["Roy J. Beckemeyer" ]
24 Aug Re: (Fwd) Dragonfly [Mass Flight on South Central OregonCoast] [Ola Fincke ]
24 Aug Re: (Fwd) Dragonfly [Mass Flight on South CentralOregonCoast] ["McCormac, Jim" ]
24 Aug Re: (Fwd) Dragonfly [Mass Flight on South Central OregonCoast] [Bob Glotzhober ]
24 Aug (Fwd) Dragonfly [Mass Flight on South Central Oregon Coast] [Terry Morse ]
20 Aug Re: dry pond [Mike May ]
19 Aug dry pond [Kathy &/or Dave Biggs ]
19 Aug dry pond [Kathy &/or Dave Biggs ]
15 Aug Re: basic taxonomy question [Thomas W Donnelly ]
14 Aug Re: Striped Saddlebags (Tramea calverti) !?!?!?!?!?! in NH!!!! [Hal White ]
14 Aug Re: Striped Saddlebags (Tramea calverti) !?!?!?!?!?! in NH!!!! [Hal White ]
14 Aug A new book of the Odonata of Singapore ["Matti Hamalainen" ]
12 Aug Re: basic taxonomy question [John Abbott ]
12 Aug basic taxonomy question [william ]
5 Aug Time-Specific Heightened Coloration, "Obelisking/Presenting" [Martha Smith ]
05 Aug Re: "Obelisking" and other postures.... [Kathy &/or Dave Biggs ]
5 Aug "Obelisking" and other postures-& Great Online Guide, some Calopteryx maculata videos! [Martha Smith ]
4 Aug damselfly behavior ["Tom D. Schultz" ]
3 Aug Calopteryx maculata [George Sims ]
02 Aug Re: Obelisking [Mike May ]
01 Aug Re: Obelisking [Marion Dobbs ]
2 Aug Re: Obelisking []
1 Aug Re: Obelisking [Glenn Corbiere ]
1 Aug Obelisking [George Sims ]
29 Jul Re: Opening a discussion of the "Obelisk" position and hopefully, a better title for the video showing the reproductive movement, possible suggestions for development of a long-term museum habitat [Marion Dobbs ]
30 Jul Re: Opening a discussion of the "Obelisk" position andhopefully, a better title for the video showing the reproductive movement, possible suggestions for development of a long-term museum habitat ["mike.averill" ]
31 Jul Re: Opening a discussion of the "Obelisk" position and hopefully, a better title for the video showing the reproductive movement, possible suggestions for development of a long-term museum habitat [Richard Rowe ]
30 Jul Re: Opening a discussion of the "Obelisk" position and hopefully, a better title for the video showing the reproductive movement, possible suggestions for development of a long-term museum habitat [Sulka Haro ]
30 Jul Re: Opening a discussion of the "Obelisk" position and hopefully, a better title for the video showing the reproductive movement, possible suggestions for development of a long-term museum habitat [Glenn Corbiere ]
30 Jul Re: Opening a discussion of the "Obelisk" position and hopefully, a better title for the video showing the reproductive movement, possible suggestions for development of a long-term museum habitat [Marion Dobbs ]
29 Jul Opening a discussion of the "Obelisk" position and hopefully, a better title for the video showing the reproductive movement, possible suggestions for development of a long-term museum habitat [Tommy Walker ]
29 Jul Re: Opening a discussion of the "Obelisk" position and hopefully, a better title for the video showing the reproductive movement, possible suggestions for development of a long-term museum habitat [Martha Smith ]
29 Jul Small World ["Dave McShaffrey" ]
29 Jul Opening a discussion of the "Obelisk" position and hopefully, a better title for the video showing the reproductive movement, possible suggestions for development of a long-term museum habitat [Martha Smith ]
29 Jul Territorial Behavior []
29 Jul Re: odonata exhibit [Richard Rowe ]
28 Jul Re: odonata exhibit ["John Payne" ]
29 Jul Re: odonata exhibit [Richard Rowe ]
28 Jul Re: odonata exhibit ["Paul M. Brunelle" ]
28 Jul Re: odonata exhibit [Thomas W Donnelly ]
28 Jul Re: odonata exhibit ["Frederico A.A. Lencioni" ]
28 Jul Re: odonata exhibit ["Richard Groover" ]
28 Jul Pachydiplax longipennis "presenting" and exercising penis video [Martha Smith ]
28 Jul Re: odonata exhibit [Thomas Schultz ]
28 Jul Re: odonata exhibit [Ethan Bright ]
28 Jul Re: odonata exhibit ["O'Brien, Mark" ]
28 Jul Re: odonata exhibit [Colin Adams ]
28 Jul Re: odonata exhibit ["J J Daigle" ]
28 Jul Re: odonata exhibit ["Fincke, Ola M." ]
27 Jul Re: odonata exhibit [Dennis Paulson ]
28 Jul Re: odonata exhibit ["Rebecca Kittel" ]
27 Jul Re: [Fwd: Note from Santa Barbara Zoo] [ROBERT BOWLES ]
27 Jul [Fwd: Note from Santa Barbara Zoo] [Kathy &/or Dave Biggs ]
26 Jul Columbus Dispatch coverage of GLOM ["Bob Glotzhober" ]

Subject: Russet-tipped Clubtail (S. plagiatus) = RFI
From: Darrin O'Brien <treecreeper AT wowway.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 20:02:51 -0400

We're gathering info on Russet-tipped Clubtails (Stylurus plagiatus). Please see the link below for further information. http://urbanodes.blogspot.com/2010/08/rfi-russet-tipped-clubtail-habitat.html -- Darrin O'Brien Dearborn, MI _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: Help with ID
From: Jim Johnson <jt_johnson AT comcast.net>
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 20:27:11 -0700

Larry, That's either Northern (Lestes disjunctus) or Lyre-tipped Spreadwing (L. unguiculatus). The easiest way to differentiate the females is by the color of the rear of the head, but that isn't visible in your photo. Female Lyre-tipped tends to have a relatively wide pale humeral stripe (like in your photo), so I would lean toward that species, but no doubt there is some variation in that in both species. Jim Johnson Vancouver, Washington jt_johnson AT comcast.net http://odonata.bogfoot.net/ From: odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu [mailto:odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu] On Behalf Of Larry Little Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 7:57 PM To: Odonata List Server Subject: [Odonata-l] Help with ID Can anyone help me with an id on this female damselfly. She was collected in Kittitas County, Washington state on the 31st next to a medium sized permanent pond. Not many other zygops around so I don't have nor did I see a male to give any help. Thanks in advance for any assistance. L2 DSC_3524.JPG _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Help with ID
From: Larry Little <jcoyote AT comcast.net>
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 19:56:43 -0700

Can anyone help me with an id on this female damselfly. She was collected in Kittitas County, Washington state on the 31st next to a medium sized permanent pond. Not many other zygops around so I don't have nor did I see a male to give any help. Thanks in advance for any assistance. L2 DSC_3524.JPG _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: [CalOdes] Fwd: dragonfly migration
From: "George L. Harp" <glharp AT astate.edu>
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 14:52:53 -0500

Hi, Our home in Cherokee Village, a retirement community in NE Arkansas, is on a loop ca. one mile in diameter. Before I became too gimpy, I used to walk this circle regularly, and in July-August Macromia sp. would patrol the road incessantly. In fact, over about a five-year stretch, I netted about 25 of these guys, all of which I sent to Nick Donnelly when he and Ken Tennessen were working on the M. georgina-M. illinoiensis problem. I have always assumed that these, mostly males, were patrolling their "stream" with procreation on their minds. As an aside, their study threw some light on why I was having so much difficulty in identifying the specimens. It seems we were in a transition zone, and I was catching a lot of M. georgina/illinoiensis hybrids. So now the name I type on the data cards is "Macromia illinoiensis illinoiensis x Macromia illinoiensis georgina. I try to avoid collecting them anymore. George ________________________________ From: odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu on behalf of Kathy &/or Dave Biggs Sent: Fri 8/27/2010 11:27 AM To: Dennis Paulson Cc: Odonata-l; Cal Odes; nw_odonata AT yahoogroups.com; SoWest Odes Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] [CalOdes] Fwd: dragonfly migration Hello all, Both Tim Manolis and I have watched Black Saddlebags, Tramea lacerata, flying down creeks from the mountains/foothills at a rate of at least 1 per minute. At the same time none were seen to move upstream, or linger in any one area. I'm especially remembering what I think was Butte Creek where Tim took folks at the DSA 2003. Cheers!! Kathy -- California Dragonflies http://www.sonic.net/dragonfly Southwest Dragonflies http://southwestdragonflies.net/ Bigsnest Wildlife Pond http://www.bigsnestpond.net/ ---------------------------------------------------------------- Kathy and Dave Biggs bigsnest AT sonic.net 707-823-2911 308 Bloomfield Rd. Sebastopol, CA 95472 dba Azalea Creek Publishing azalea AT sonic.net fax:707-823-2911 http://www.sonic.net/~bigsnest/azaleacreekpublishing/ Dennis Paulson wrote: Hello, all. Here is a report of what are surely Sympetrum corruptum moving southward along the Washington Cascades. Note the elevation. We often see this species in the mountains of Washington in the fall, usually as individuals scattered all over the landscape far from water, but never anything of this magnitude. I think this is the first evidence for a sustained directional movement of this species anywhere away from the Pacific Northwest coast, where it is an annual event. If you extrapolate from 300-500/minute, the numbers are staggering. There must be a lot of these dragonflies emerging from British Columbia lakes and ponds! It also sounds as if there was only one obvious species in the movement. We still have no real evidence for migration in any species in the far West but S. corruptum and Anax junius. Dennis ----- Dennis Paulson 1724 NE 98 St.! Seattle, WA 98115 206-528-1382 dennispaulson AT comcast.net Begin forwarded message: From: "R. Victor Glick" Date: August 27, 2010 6:57:09 AM PDT To: dennispaulson AT comcast.net Subject: dragonfly migration Hello, Victor and I were hiking in Horseshoe Basin , in the eastern Pasayten, the last few days and saw thousands of dragonflies coming over Armstrong Mountain, elevation 8106, and flying south. I counted approximately 300-500 passing by per minute just in one field of view. They were mid-sized (maybe 2 inches or so) and they seemed to have some reddish color. There are lots of springs on the mountain and the still (and very shallow) Loudon Lake and some small ponds, but they we! re not congregating in any of those places. We were fascinated, and th ought you might be able to shed some light on this phenomenon. Thank you ! Libby Schreiner and Victor Glick _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Dragonfly [Mass Flight on South CentralOregonCoast]
From: mike.averill <mike.averill AT blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 23:58:52 +0100

Mike, Jim, & others This is a bit late but still interesting to relate as I have been reading the thread about Dragonfly masses. I have a friend who has recently retuned from Chicago relating tales of the skies being filled with dragonflies at the lakeside. I attach two photos clearly showing the mass and a close up of two fighting on the ground. My friend, not being an Odonatologist didn't realise the photo was of the underside but the larger dragonfly looks like a Green Darner, I will leave it to you to guess at the other. There is some movie footage as well but too large to attach. Apparently the dragonflies were at the Shedd Aquarium, Chicago. However, masses of them were observed all along the lake shore ( walking between Shedd Aquarium (end of Grant Park) and Oak Street Beach to the north. I don't think there was any sense of a direction to the mass. Presumably such masses would show up well on radar giving a good idea of the direction of movement. cheers Mike Averill ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike May To: McCormac, Jim Cc: odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu ; se-odonata AT yahoogroups.com ; TexOdes AT yahoogroups.com ; CalOdes ; neodes AT yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 3:58 PM Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] (Fwd) Dragonfly [Mass Flight on South CentralOregonCoast] Jim (and others), This is great information for those of us with a long term interest in migration. Could you tell if these swarms were simply milling around as if feeding, or were they flying more or less in a particular direction? I'll just add, for the benefit (?) of everyone reading this, that some colleagues and I tried to accumulate information on the occurrence of migratory swarms via the web several years ago (I think Bob Barber's web site that grew out of that effort may still exist, although it's inactive), with mixed success. I would say that two problems ultimately limited the utility of that project: one is the difficulty of tabulating and analyzing the rather diverse data that came in, and the other was the failure, or inability, of many respondents to identify the species of dragonfly involved. The first of these could be solved if I miraculously became a lot smarter and less lazy, which I'm expecting to happen any day now. The second, though, really requires observations from people who can identify dragonflies on the wing, at least the principal migrants, which are fairly distinctive. Without knowing the species comprising at least a major part of the swarm, no sensible interpretation is really possible (Ola, this means that when you're driving 90 mph in bumper-to-bumper traffic on the interstate at dusk with your kids in the car, you just have to do a controlled spin off to the shoulder and hop out to look). It also helps to include time of day and some mention of notable weather conditions, such as recently passed or impending weather fronts and/or wind direction; this is much less vital than species id, however. Anyway, keep the observations coming, somebody may ultimately be able to make sense out of why migrating swarms occur when and where they do, including why in some years they seem much more numerous than in others. Mike May PS I guess I should apologize for cross-posting, but I figure dragonfly talk is always worth reading over a few times. PPS Ola, I also have sometimes had the impression that migrating Anax follow highways. Somebody should so some systematic observations on that possibility. ----- Original Message ----- From: McCormac, Jim To: Bob Glotzhober ; Terry Morse ; odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 2:10 PM Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] (Fwd) Dragonfly [Mass Flight on South CentralOregonCoast] I have witnessed two massive swarms of Anax junius in the last week in Ohio. The first was towards the end of the day on August 21st, on the outskirts of Chillicothe in Ross County. There were untold hundreds and more likely thousands spread across a broad front. The next day, August 22nd, I witnessed another sizeable swarm involving at least hundreds of Anax junius in Adams County, in southernmost Ohio. If these swarms weren't totally Anax junius they must have been close to pure, as I was looking for other species and didn't notice anything else. I have heard of at least four other reports of green darner swarms elsewhere in Ohio. Must be the year of the green darner! Jim McCormac Jim McCormac Ohio Division of Wildlife 2045 Morse Rd., G-2 Columbus, OH 43229 614-265-6440 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu [mailto:odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu] On Behalf Of Bob Glotzhober Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 1:20 PM To: Terry Morse; odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] (Fwd) Dragonfly [Mass Flight on South CentralOregonCoast] I had a report from Urbana, Ohio last Wednesday evening (Aug. 18) of a feeding swarm of "hundreds" of dragonflies. The observer was not skilled in dragonfly ID, but based on her description, it was dominated by Anax junius with secondarily Pantala flavescens and perhaps two other species we could not determine. They actually chased off an unidentified bird that was at first interested in the swarm. In a recent communication with Mike May, he concurred with me that in late summer (mid-August through September) in this part of the country such large feeding swarms are "staging" phenomenon associated with migratory swarms. This may become a repeat of the 1993 season when in Ohio we had 7 reports of very large feeding swarms and 3 reports of large directional, migratory flights. We should all be alert to more observations! Bob ==================== Robert C. Glotzhober 614/ 298-2054 Senior Curator, Natural History bglotzhober AT ohiohistory.org Ohio Historical Society Fax: 614/ 298-2098 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu [mailto:odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu] On Behalf Of Terry Morse Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 1:16 PM To: odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu Subject: [Odonata-l] (Fwd) Dragonfly [Mass Flight on South Central OregonCoast] I received this e-mail this morning concerning a mass flight somewhere near Florence, on the south central Oregon coast. I haven't seen any in the Newport (central central Oregon coast) yet. If true to form, the species involved is Sympetrum corruptum. More details as I get them. Terry Morse tmorse AT teleport.com http://home.teleport.com/~tmorse/index.html ------- Forwarded message follows ------- From: Jim Arishenkoff To: Subject: Dragonfly Date sent: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 09:29:32 -0700 Around 9:00 am Tuesday morning August 24, 2010. Oceania Drive. Thousands of dragonflies going in direction of Florence. Never seen this before, very cool experience. We are from Grand Forks B.C on holidays. Jim ------- End of forwarded message ------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l_______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: Fwd: dragonfly migration
From: Terry Morse <tmorse AT teleport.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 10:19:08 -0700

There was one report of a westward flight through McMinnville, Oregon, in August 1948. McMinnville is well inland, approximately 30 miles SW of Portland, Oregon.� The citation is: Macy, Ralph W. 1949. On a migration of Tarnetrum corruptum (Hagen) (Odonata) in Western Oregon. Canadian Entomologist 81: 50-51. You can read the text at http://tinyurl.com/2w574g4. Terry Morse tmorse AT teleport.com http://home.teleport.com/~tmorse/index.html * "Deep in the sun-searched growths the dragon-fly Hangs like a blue thread loosened from the sky." -- Dante Gabriel Rossetti, The House of Life (1881) On 27 Aug 2010 at 8:47, Dennis Paulson wrote: > ... I think this is the first evidence for a sustained directional > movement of this species anywhere away from the Pacific Northwest > coast, where it is an annual event._______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: [CalOdes] Fwd: dragonfly migration
From: Kathy &/or Dave Biggs <bigsnest AT sonic.net>
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 09:27:40 -0700

Hello all, Both Tim Manolis and I have watched Black Saddlebags, /Tramea lacerata/, flying down creeks from the mountains/foothills at a rate of at least 1 per minute. At the same time none were seen to move upstream, or linger in any one area. I'm especially remembering what I think was Butte Creek where Tim took folks at the DSA 2003. Cheers!! Kathy -- California Dragonflies http://www.sonic.net/dragonfly Southwest Dragonflies http://southwestdragonflies.net/ Bigsnest Wildlife Pond http://www.bigsnestpond.net/ ---------------------------------------------------------------- Kathy and Dave Biggs bigsnest AT sonic.net 707-823-2911 308 Bloomfield Rd. Sebastopol, CA 95472 dba Azalea Creek Publishing azalea AT sonic.net fax:707-823-2911 http://www.sonic.net/~bigsnest/azaleacreekpublishing/ Dennis Paulson wrote: > > > Hello, all. > > Here is a report of what are surely /Sympetrum corruptum/ moving > southward along the Washington Cascades. Note the elevation. We often > see this species in the mountains of Washington in the fall, usually > as individuals scattered all over the landscape far from water, but > never anything of this magnitude. I think this is the first evidence > for a sustained directional movement of this species anywhere away > from the Pacific Northwest coast, where it is an annual event. > > If you extrapolate from 300-500/minute, the numbers are staggering. > There must be a lot of these dragonflies emerging from British > Columbia lakes and ponds! It also sounds as if there was only one > obvious species in the movement. We still have no real evidence for > migration in any species in the far West but /S. corruptum/ and /Anax > junius/. > > Dennis > ----- > Dennis Paulson > 1724 NE 98 St.! > Seattle, WA 98115 > 206-528-1382 > dennispaulson AT comcast.net > > > Begin forwarded message: > >> *From: *"R. Victor Glick" > > >> *Date: *August 27, 2010 6:57:09 AM PDT >> *To: *dennispaulson AT comcast.net >> *Subject: **dragonfly migration* >> >> Hello, >> >> Victor and I were hiking in Horseshoe Basin , in the eastern >> Pasayten, the last few days and saw thousands of dragonflies coming >> over Armstrong Mountain, elevation 8106, and flying south. I counted >> approximately 300-500 passing by per minute just in one field of >> view. They were mid-sized (maybe 2 inches or so) and they seemed to >> have some reddish color. There are lots of springs on the mountain >> and the still (and very shallow) Loudon Lake and some small ponds, >> but they we! re not congregating in any of those places. We were >> fascinated, and th ought you might be able to shed some light on this >> phenomenon. >> >> Thank you ! >> >> Libby Schreiner and Victor Glick >_______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: Fwd: dragonfly migration
From: Kathy &/or Dave Biggs <bigsnest AT sonic.net>
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 09:27:40 -0700

Hello all, Both Tim Manolis and I have watched Black Saddlebags, /Tramea lacerata/, flying down creeks from the mountains/foothills at a rate of at least 1 per minute. At the same time none were seen to move upstream, or linger in any one area. I'm especially remembering what I think was Butte Creek where Tim took folks at the DSA 2003. Cheers!! Kathy -- California Dragonflies http://www.sonic.net/dragonfly Southwest Dragonflies http://southwestdragonflies.net/ Bigsnest Wildlife Pond http://www.bigsnestpond.net/ ---------------------------------------------------------------- Kathy and Dave Biggs bigsnest AT sonic.net 707-823-2911 308 Bloomfield Rd. Sebastopol, CA 95472 dba Azalea Creek Publishing azalea AT sonic.net fax:707-823-2911 http://www.sonic.net/~bigsnest/azaleacreekpublishing/ Dennis Paulson wrote: > > > Hello, all. > > Here is a report of what are surely /Sympetrum corruptum/ moving > southward along the Washington Cascades. Note the elevation. We often > see this species in the mountains of Washington in the fall, usually > as individuals scattered all over the landscape far from water, but > never anything of this magnitude. I think this is the first evidence > for a sustained directional movement of this species anywhere away > from the Pacific Northwest coast, where it is an annual event. > > If you extrapolate from 300-500/minute, the numbers are staggering. > There must be a lot of these dragonflies emerging from British > Columbia lakes and ponds! It also sounds as if there was only one > obvious species in the movement. We still have no real evidence for > migration in any species in the far West but /S. corruptum/ and /Anax > junius/. > > Dennis > ----- > Dennis Paulson > 1724 NE 98 St.! > Seattle, WA 98115 > 206-528-1382 > dennispaulson AT comcast.net > > > Begin forwarded message: > >> *From: *"R. Victor Glick" > > >> *Date: *August 27, 2010 6:57:09 AM PDT >> *To: *dennispaulson AT comcast.net >> *Subject: **dragonfly migration* >> >> Hello, >> >> Victor and I were hiking in Horseshoe Basin , in the eastern >> Pasayten, the last few days and saw thousands of dragonflies coming >> over Armstrong Mountain, elevation 8106, and flying south. I counted >> approximately 300-500 passing by per minute just in one field of >> view. They were mid-sized (maybe 2 inches or so) and they seemed to >> have some reddish color. There are lots of springs on the mountain >> and the still (and very shallow) Loudon Lake and some small ponds, >> but they we! re not congregating in any of those places. We were >> fascinated, and th ought you might be able to shed some light on this >> phenomenon. >> >> Thank you ! >> >> Libby Schreiner and Victor Glick >
Subject: Fwd: dragonfly migration
From: Dennis Paulson <dennispaulson AT comcast.net>
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 08:47:32 -0700

Hello, all. Here is a report of what are surely Sympetrum corruptum moving southward along the Washington Cascades. Note the elevation. We often see this species in the mountains of Washington in the fall, usually as individuals scattered all over the landscape far from water, but never anything of this magnitude. I think this is the first evidence for a sustained directional movement of this species anywhere away from the Pacific Northwest coast, where it is an annual event. If you extrapolate from 300-500/minute, the numbers are staggering. There must be a lot of these dragonflies emerging from British Columbia lakes and ponds! It also sounds as if there was only one obvious species in the movement. We still have no real evidence for migration in any species in the far West but S. corruptum and Anax junius. Dennis ----- Dennis Paulson 1724 NE 98 St. Seattle, WA 98115 206-528-1382 dennispaulson AT comcast.net Begin forwarded message: > From: "R. Victor Glick" > Date: August 27, 2010 6:57:09 AM PDT > To: dennispaulson AT comcast.net > Subject: dragonfly migration > > Hello, > > Victor and I were hiking in Horseshoe Basin , in the eastern Pasayten, the last few days and saw thousands of dragonflies coming over Armstrong Mountain, elevation 8106, and flying south. I counted approximately 300-500 passing by per minute just in one field of view. They were mid-sized (maybe 2 inches or so) and they seemed to have some reddish color. There are lots of springs on the mountain and the still (and very shallow) Loudon Lake and some small ponds, but they were not congregating in any of those places. We were fascinated, and thought you might be able to shed some light on this phenomenon. > > Thank you ! > > Libby Schreiner and Victor Glick_______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Fwd: dragonfly migration
From: Dennis Paulson <dennispaulson AT comcast.net>
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 08:47:32 -0700

Hello, all. Here is a report of what are surely Sympetrum corruptum moving southward along the Washington Cascades. Note the elevation. We often see this species in the mountains of Washington in the fall, usually as individuals scattered all over the landscape far from water, but never anything of this magnitude. I think this is the first evidence for a sustained directional movement of this species anywhere away from the Pacific Northwest coast, where it is an annual event. If you extrapolate from 300-500/minute, the numbers are staggering. There must be a lot of these dragonflies emerging from British Columbia lakes and ponds! It also sounds as if there was only one obvious species in the movement. We still have no real evidence for migration in any species in the far West but S. corruptum and Anax junius. Dennis ----- Dennis Paulson 1724 NE 98 St. Seattle, WA 98115 206-528-1382 dennispaulson AT comcast.net Begin forwarded message: > From: "R. Victor Glick" > Date: August 27, 2010 6:57:09 AM PDT > To: dennispaulson AT comcast.net > Subject: dragonfly migration > > Hello, > > Victor and I were hiking in Horseshoe Basin , in the eastern Pasayten, the last few days and saw thousands of dragonflies coming over Armstrong Mountain, elevation 8106, and flying south. I counted approximately 300-500 passing by per minute just in one field of view. They were mid-sized (maybe 2 inches or so) and they seemed to have some reddish color. There are lots of springs on the mountain and the still (and very shallow) Loudon Lake and some small ponds, but they were not congregating in any of those places. We were fascinated, and thought you might be able to shed some light on this phenomenon. > > Thank you ! > > Libby Schreiner and Victor Glick
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Dragonfly [Mass Flight on South CentralOregonCoast]
From: Marion Dobbs <spreadwing AT mac.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 10:10:13 -0400

Continuing in the water-but-not-migration vein, a couple of years ago, I had a Stylurus laurae attempting to oviposit on the sidewalk in front of the Days Inn motel in downtown Clayton, GA. She must have thought that stream had a really, really sandy bottom! Marion Dobbs 9 Bridlewood Lane Rome GA 30165 ecurlew AT mac.com http://www.mamomi.net http://mariondobbs.smugmug.com/ http://ponddamsel.phanfare.com/ On Aug 25, 2010, at 1:06 PM, Dennis Paulson wrote: > This is getting farther away from migration, but I'll add more about odonates mistaking smooth surfaces for water. We all know that Pantala flavescens does this unendingly, and I have found that parking lots are a good place to look for this species (if I can put thoughts in a dragonfly's mind, "what unbelievable luck, look at all these ponds"). > > A few years ago when I parked a blue car under trees at Sycamore Canyon in southern Arizona, a male Perithemis domitia (Slough Amberwing) appeared and, using the antenna as a perch, seemed to treat the car as a territory. It flew around over it repeatedly and touched it several times, as male Perithemis do when they are looking for oviposition sites. I assumed when we drove away that it would turn its attention to a more appropriate habitat. > > I just returned from leading a "dragonfly nature tour" in Costa Rica, and at the Villa Lapas Hotel in the Pacific lowlands, our lunch was interrupted by watching a male of the same species set up a territory over the shiny tiled floor at the open edge of the dining room. A crack about 4 cm wide and 2 cm deep ran between two sets of tiles, and the male amberwing patrolled back and forth along it, touching it at times. It flew away but returned repeatedly. On one of its flights, it returned with a female and performed the usual Perithemis trick of showing her his chosen oviposition sites. They then copulated briefly, and she began to lay eggs into the crack. This went on for some time, until we disturbed the pair trying to get photos. The next day the same or another male was defending the same crack. > > Dragonflies have great reflexes, but they're not so strong in the thinking area. > > ----- > Dennis Paulson > 1724 NE 98 St. > Seattle, WA 98115 > 206-528-1382 > dennispaulson AT comcast.net > > On Aug 25, 2010, at 9:13 AM, wrote: > >> In a message dated 8/25/2010 7:59:59 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, may AT aesop.rutgers.edu writes: >> Ola, I also have sometimes had the impression that migrating Anax follow highways. Somebody should so some systematic observations on that possibility. >> Here in northern California, I've occasionally observed what appear to be migrating groups or individuals (versus feeding swarms, which one also sees over such waterways) of Common Green Darner and Black Saddlebags (Tramea lacerata) moving downstream along rivers and creeks in August and September. A highway or road might pass for a waterway in the mind of a dragonfly on occasion. Perhaps a correlation here with the phenomenon of some species mistaking certain metallic paints on automobiles for water -- male Flame Skimmers (Libellula saturata) are constantly setting up territory on the radio antenna of my wife's car, and quite often, when I am stopped at an intersection waiting for a light to change, I will see individuals of Variegated Meadowhawk land on the tips of aerial antennae of nearby cars. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Tim > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Odonata-l mailing list > Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu > https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: newbie ids please?
From: william <odes AT wa.net>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 00:12:58 -0500

Hi guys, and thanks much! I uploaded another pic of the Dancer, this time showing the tail tip. Hope this helps to distinguish between the two species. http://www.facebook.com/photo.php? pid=30802790&l=980a710ac7&id=1391239062 -william enid garfield co ok usa odes AT wa.net_______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: newbie ids please?
From: Joshua Rose <opihi AT mindspring.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 23:33:37 -0400

Hi William, I am not sure how many others here are tied into FaceBook, so I'll go ahead and take a stab. On Aug 25, 2010, at 11:10 PM, william wrote: > I have been a birder of a few years, and have a little experience > with butterflies, but am only very recently entering the fascinating > world of the odonata. I have a few photos of 3 dragonflies (maybe > all the same species?), and a damselfly. Hoping that someone may > have the chance to look at the links and provide ids? And maybe some > comments on the diagnostic features of each? Many thanks for your > time! > > http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30802503&l=3b54aee79f&id=1391239062 Common Whitetail (Plathemis lydia), female. The combination of the tree dark spots on each wing, with the two broken pale stripes on the abdomen, is diagnostic. > http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30802506&l=0f31049b6e&id=1391239062 Same species, but immature male this time. The abdomen has the same pattern, but the outer two spots on the female's wing are replaced by a single wide band on the male's. When the male is mature it gains the white tail for which it is named. > http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30802510&l=ad63eb7fe0&id=1391239062 Twelve-spotted Skimmer (Libellula pulchella), male. This species does bear a striking resemblance to the female Whitetail above, but the white spots interspersed with the black ones diagnose the male 12- spot. The female 12-spot is tougher to distinguish from the female Whitetail, but has continuous pale stripes along the abdomen in place of the Whitetail's broken stripes. > http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30802512&l=c822a2c3ec&id=1391239062 Fairly certain that this is a female Powdered Dancer (Argia moesta), blue form. I keep forgetting how to distinguish this from the blue form female Blue-fronted Dancer (A. apicalis), but it seems like I see blue females in the wild much more often among moesta than apicalis. Both have the solid blue, mostly stripeless thorax and lack a terminal blue spot at the tip of the abdomen. Have fun, Josh _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: newbie ids please?
From: Steve Hummel <shummel AT iowatelecom.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 22:31:11 -0500

Steve Hummel shummel AT iowatelecom.net On Aug 25, 2010, at 10:10 PM, william wrote: I have been a birder of a few years, and have a little experience with butterflies, but am only very recently entering the fascinating world of the odonata. I have a few photos of 3 dragonflies (maybe all the same species?), and a damselfly. Hoping that someone may have the chance to look at the links and provide ids? And maybe some comments on the diagnostic features of each? Many thanks for your time! http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30802503&l=3b54aee79f&id=1391239062 female Plathemis lydia Eastern Whitetail http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30802506&l=0f31049b6e&id=1391239062 male Plathemis lydia http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30802510&l=ad63eb7fe0&id=1391239062 male Libellula pulchella 12-spot Skimmer http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30802512&l=c822a2c3ec&id=1391239062 Argia apicalis Blue-fronted Dancer looks like a female, although the end of the abdomen is blurred by the stem in the foreground -william enid garfield co ok usa odes AT wa.net _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: newbie ids please?
From: william <odes AT wa.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 22:10:53 -0500

I have been a birder of a few years, and have a little experience with butterflies, but am only very recently entering the fascinating world of the odonata. I have a few photos of 3 dragonflies (maybe all the same species?), and a damselfly. Hoping that someone may have the chance to look at the links and provide ids? And maybe some comments on the diagnostic features of each? Many thanks for your time! http://www.facebook.com/photo.php? pid=30802503&l=3b54aee79f&id=1391239062 http://www.facebook.com/photo.php? pid=30802506&l=0f31049b6e&id=1391239062 http://www.facebook.com/photo.php? pid=30802510&l=ad63eb7fe0&id=1391239062 http://www.facebook.com/photo.php? pid=30802512&l=c822a2c3ec&id=1391239062 -william enid garfield co ok usa odes AT wa.net_______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Fw: Stereo microscope question.
From: "Frederico A.A. Lencioni" <odonata AT zygoptera.bio.br>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 22:53:10 -0300

Dear Folks, I'm here again asking information on stereo. Sorry, but I'm planning a trip to US next October (or November) and I need to buy a new stereo to finish the second edition of my book. Any of you ever used or see Edmund optics stereomicroscope named e-zoom 6V (http://www.edmundoptics.com/onlinecatalog/displayproduct.cfm?productID=2799)? Is a good microscope? Is quite inexpensive (about US$ 3,000.00) with a complete digital video capture instaled. Any experience with Z2 from great scopes (http://www.greatscopes.com/zoom.htm) ? Thank you for any help. Hugs, Fred_______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Dragonfly [Mass Flight on South CentralOregonCoast
From: <dallanfitc AT aol.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 13:34:01 -0400

A fascinating observation that probably tells us as much about the nature of odonate vision as about "thinking" - or that arthropod cognition is very removed from what we call thinking. You can only process the data you take in. The visual data about topography and landscape are taken in in forms that seem not to differentiate well among TYPES of reflective surfaces, and thus a crack between tiles is interpreted as a good oviposition site, just as shiny cars are interpreted as reflective pond surfaces. I can't give you correct technical terms, but the ode has several types of eyes, and the multi-ommatidia "big eyes" don't put together at all the same type of picture we get from our retina - acuity and detail are, I suspect, more "pixillated", and then there's less visual cortex to process it. At WDA 2001 in Gallivare, Rob Oldberg presented some research about different cells in the aeshnid eye responding to motion across the field of vision in different angles - lateral movement versus dropping- with direct links to motor responses to dive after falling prey - not mediated by basal ganglia processing or "thought". Question for Dennis, in that part of Costa Rica do Perithemis sometimes oviposit into cracks in dried out lake bottoms - a similar crevice between flat surfaces - or into a trickle in a mud flat? Or would they normally OP only into open water? Was this, perhaps, an apocalyptic portent of future flooding? Beware when odes OP in your roof gutters, they may know something you don't. David Allan Fitch, WDA Treasurer -----Original Message----- From: Dennis Paulson . . . at the Villa Lapas Hotel in the Pacific lowlands, our lunch was interrupted by watching a male of the same species set up a territory over the shiny tiled floor at the open edge of the dining room. A crack about 4 cm wide and 2 cm deep ran between two sets of tiles, and the male amberwing patrolled back and forth along it, touching it at times. It flew away but returned repeatedly. On one of its flights, it returned with a female and performed the usual Perithemis trick of showing her his chosen oviposition sites. They then copulated briefly, and she began to lay eggs into the crack. This went on for some time, until we disturbed the pair trying to get photos. The next day the same or another male was defending the same crack. Dragonflies have great reflexes, but they're not so strong in the thinking area. _______________________________________________ donata-l mailing list donata-l AT listhost.ups.edu ttps://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l_______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Dragonfly [Mass Flight on South CentralOregonCoast]
From: Dennis Paulson <dennispaulson AT comcast.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 10:06:42 -0700

This is getting farther away from migration, but I'll add more about odonates mistaking smooth surfaces for water. We all know that Pantala flavescens does this unendingly, and I have found that parking lots are a good place to look for this species (if I can put thoughts in a dragonfly's mind, "what unbelievable luck, look at all these ponds"). A few years ago when I parked a blue car under trees at Sycamore Canyon in southern Arizona, a male Perithemis domitia (Slough Amberwing) appeared and, using the antenna as a perch, seemed to treat the car as a territory. It flew around over it repeatedly and touched it several times, as male Perithemis do when they are looking for oviposition sites. I assumed when we drove away that it would turn its attention to a more appropriate habitat. I just returned from leading a "dragonfly nature tour" in Costa Rica, and at the Villa Lapas Hotel in the Pacific lowlands, our lunch was interrupted by watching a male of the same species set up a territory over the shiny tiled floor at the open edge of the dining room. A crack about 4 cm wide and 2 cm deep ran between two sets of tiles, and the male amberwing patrolled back and forth along it, touching it at times. It flew away but returned repeatedly. On one of its flights, it returned with a female and performed the usual Perithemis trick of showing her his chosen oviposition sites. They then copulated briefly, and she began to lay eggs into the crack. This went on for some time, until we disturbed the pair trying to get photos. The next day the same or another male was defending the same crack. Dragonflies have great reflexes, but they're not so strong in the thinking area. ----- Dennis Paulson 1724 NE 98 St. Seattle, WA 98115 206-528-1382 dennispaulson AT comcast.net On Aug 25, 2010, at 9:13 AM, wrote: > In a message dated 8/25/2010 7:59:59 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, may AT aesop.rutgers.edu writes: > Ola, I also have sometimes had the impression that migrating Anax follow highways. Somebody should so some systematic observations on that possibility. > Here in northern California, I've occasionally observed what appear to be migrating groups or individuals (versus feeding swarms, which one also sees over such waterways) of Common Green Darner and Black Saddlebags (Tramea lacerata) moving downstream along rivers and creeks in August and September. A highway or road might pass for a waterway in the mind of a dragonfly on occasion. Perhaps a correlation here with the phenomenon of some species mistaking certain metallic paints on automobiles for water -- male Flame Skimmers (Libellula saturata) are constantly setting up territory on the radio antenna of my wife's car, and quite often, when I am stopped at an intersection waiting for a light to change, I will see individuals of Variegated Meadowhawk land on the tips of aerial antennae of nearby cars. > > Cheers, > > Tim _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Dragonfly [Mass Flight on South CentralOregonCoast]
From: Ann Johnson <aj AT hologrambirds.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 11:45:24 -0500

Tim's comments remind me of a few years ago when several of us had scopes set up at the September Pelican Festival held at the upper reaches of Saylorville Reservoir along the Des Moines River. As we scanned the river there was a constant flight of Common Green Darners just cruising downstream. It was hard to get any kind of count since we were busy showing kids pelicans as well, but I would say that several thousand passed by in the three hours or so we were watching. Ann Johnson From: odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu [mailto:odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu] On Behalf Of Ylightfoot AT aol.com Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 11:13 AM To: odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] (Fwd) Dragonfly [Mass Flight on South CentralOregonCoast] In a message dated 8/25/2010 7:59:59 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, may AT aesop.rutgers.edu writes: Ola, I also have sometimes had the impression that migrating Anax follow highways. Somebody should so some systematic observations on that possibility. Here in northern California, I've occasionally observed what appear to be migrating groups or individuals (versus feeding swarms, which one also sees over such waterways) of Common Green Darner and Black Saddlebags (Tramea lacerata) moving downstream along rivers and creeks in August and September. A highway or road might pass for a waterway in the mind of a dragonfly on occasion. Perhaps a correlation here with the phenomenon of some species mistaking certain metallic paints on automobiles for water -- male Flame Skimmers (Libellula saturata) are constantly setting up territory on the radio antenna of my wife's car, and quite often, when I am stopped at an intersection waiting for a light to change, I will see individuals of Variegated Meadowhawk land on the tips of aerial antennae of nearby cars. Cheers, Tim _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Dragonfly [Mass Flight on South CentralOregonCoast]
From: <Ylightfoot AT aol.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 12:13:04 -0400

In a message dated 8/25/2010 7:59:59 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, may AT aesop.rutgers.edu writes: Ola, I also have sometimes had the impression that migrating Anax follow highways. Somebody should so some systematic observations on that possibility. Here in northern California, I've occasionally observed what appear to be migrating groups or individuals (versus feeding swarms, which one also sees over such waterways) of Common Green Darner and Black Saddlebags (Tramea lacerata) moving downstream along rivers and creeks in August and September. A highway or road might pass for a waterway in the mind of a dragonfly on occasion. Perhaps a correlation here with the phenomenon of some species mistaking certain metallic paints on automobiles for water -- male Flame Skimmers (Libellula saturata) are constantly setting up territory on the radio antenna of my wife's car, and quite often, when I am stopped at an intersection waiting for a light to change, I will see individuals of Variegated Meadowhawk land on the tips of aerial antennae of nearby cars. Cheers, Tim_______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Dragonfly [Mass Flight on South CentralOregonCoast]
From: Mike May <may AT aesop.rutgers.edu>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 10:58:57 -0400

Jim (and others), This is great information for those of us with a long term interest in migration. Could you tell if these swarms were simply milling around as if feeding, or were they flying more or less in a particular direction? I'll just add, for the benefit (?) of everyone reading this, that some colleagues and I tried to accumulate information on the occurrence of migratory swarms via the web several years ago (I think Bob Barber's web site that grew out of that effort may still exist, although it's inactive), with mixed success. I would say that two problems ultimately limited the utility of that project: one is the difficulty of tabulating and analyzing the rather diverse data that came in, and the other was the failure, or inability, of many respondents to identify the species of dragonfly involved. The first of these could be solved if I miraculously became a lot smarter and less lazy, which I'm expecting to happen any day now. The second, though, really requires observations from people who can identify dragonflies on the wing, at least the principal migrants, which are fairly distinctive. Without knowing the species comprising at least a major part of the swarm, no sensible interpretation is really possible (Ola, this means that when you're driving 90 mph in bumper-to-bumper traffic on the interstate at dusk with your kids in the car, you just have to do a controlled spin off to the shoulder and hop out to look). It also helps to include time of day and some mention of notable weather conditions, such as recently passed or impending weather fronts and/or wind direction; this is much less vital than species id, however. Anyway, keep the observations coming, somebody may ultimately be able to make sense out of why migrating swarms occur when and where they do, including why in some years they seem much more numerous than in others. Mike May PS I guess I should apologize for cross-posting, but I figure dragonfly talk is always worth reading over a few times. PPS Ola, I also have sometimes had the impression that migrating Anax follow highways. Somebody should so some systematic observations on that possibility. ----- Original Message ----- From: McCormac, Jim To: Bob Glotzhober ; Terry Morse ; odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 2:10 PM Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] (Fwd) Dragonfly [Mass Flight on South CentralOregonCoast] I have witnessed two massive swarms of Anax junius in the last week in Ohio. The first was towards the end of the day on August 21st, on the outskirts of Chillicothe in Ross County. There were untold hundreds and more likely thousands spread across a broad front. The next day, August 22nd, I witnessed another sizeable swarm involving at least hundreds of Anax junius in Adams County, in southernmost Ohio. If these swarms weren't totally Anax junius they must have been close to pure, as I was looking for other species and didn't notice anything else. I have heard of at least four other reports of green darner swarms elsewhere in Ohio. Must be the year of the green darner! Jim McCormac Jim McCormac Ohio Division of Wildlife 2045 Morse Rd., G-2 Columbus, OH 43229 614-265-6440 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu [mailto:odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu] On Behalf Of Bob Glotzhober Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 1:20 PM To: Terry Morse; odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] (Fwd) Dragonfly [Mass Flight on South CentralOregonCoast] I had a report from Urbana, Ohio last Wednesday evening (Aug. 18) of a feeding swarm of "hundreds" of dragonflies. The observer was not skilled in dragonfly ID, but based on her description, it was dominated by Anax junius with secondarily Pantala flavescens and perhaps two other species we could not determine. They actually chased off an unidentified bird that was at first interested in the swarm. In a recent communication with Mike May, he concurred with me that in late summer (mid-August through September) in this part of the country such large feeding swarms are "staging" phenomenon associated with migratory swarms. This may become a repeat of the 1993 season when in Ohio we had 7 reports of very large feeding swarms and 3 reports of large directional, migratory flights. We should all be alert to more observations! Bob ==================== Robert C. Glotzhober 614/ 298-2054 Senior Curator, Natural History bglotzhober AT ohiohistory.org Ohio Historical Society Fax: 614/ 298-2098 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu [mailto:odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu] On Behalf Of Terry Morse Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 1:16 PM To: odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu Subject: [Odonata-l] (Fwd) Dragonfly [Mass Flight on South Central OregonCoast] I received this e-mail this morning concerning a mass flight somewhere near Florence, on the south central Oregon coast. I haven't seen any in the Newport (central central Oregon coast) yet. If true to form, the species involved is Sympetrum corruptum. More details as I get them. Terry Morse tmorse AT teleport.com http://home.teleport.com/~tmorse/index.html ------- Forwarded message follows ------- From: Jim Arishenkoff To: Subject: Dragonfly Date sent: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 09:29:32 -0700 Around 9:00 am Tuesday morning August 24, 2010. Oceania Drive. Thousands of dragonflies going in direction of Florence. Never seen this before, very cool experience. We are from Grand Forks B.C on holidays. Jim ------- End of forwarded message ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Dragonfly [Mass Flight on South Central OregonCoast]
From: Chris Hill <chill AT coastal.edu>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 15:24:01 -0400

On Aug 24, 2010, at 3:09 PM, Ola Fincke wrote: > It was almost as if they were using the interstate for an unfettered > flight path.....but that must have only been my imagination at work. Not necessarily your imagination. Birds (racing pigeons) have been shown to follow highways home, even to the extent of following the traffic around a cloverleaf to get onto a different highway (I think I got that last detail right). Maybe the drragonflies are following the river of cars... CH ************************************************************************ Christopher E. Hill Biology Department Coastal Carolina University Conway, SC 29528-1954 chill AT coastal.edu http://ww2.coastal.edu/chill/chill.htm Good judgement comes from experience. The most useful experience comes from bad judgement _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Dragonfly mass flight in Kansas
From: "Roy J. Beckemeyer" <RoyJBeckemeyer AT cox.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 13:52:08 -0500

Another mass flight report: Conni Nevius of Spring Hill, Kansas (just south of Kansas City) reported she, her friends and neighbors had seen a "massive flyover of dragonflies.just thousands of them" on the 21st of August. None of the observers knew anything about dragonfly identification, so no species data accompanied the report. Roy Roy Beckemeyer 957 Perry Ave. Wichita, KS 67203-3141 royjbeckemeyer AT cox.net www.windsofkansas.com _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Dragonfly [Mass Flight on South Central OregonCoast]
From: Ola Fincke <fincke AT ou.edu>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 14:09:37 -0500

Driving home from MI 15 Aug, I saw swarms of migrating dragonflies along route 44 between Tulsa and OKC; it was getting dark, and I was driving so couldn't really even guess at an ID, but have never seen anything like it. The swarms occurred over a distance of 50 miles or so. Thankfully they seemed pretty good at dodging cars and only 1 hit mine. They were headed east. It was almost as if they were using the interstate for an unfettered flight path.....but that must have only been my imagination at work. Given the heat awaiting us in OK, I too, wish I could migrate East......I was told OK experienced one of the hottest summers on record, with no rain for over 6 weeks, and temperatures over 100 for nearly that long. Ola Ola Fincke EEB Graduate Program Dept. of Zoology University of Oklahoma Norman, OK 73019 Tel: 405-325-5514 Fax: 405-325-6202 On Aug 24, 2010, at 12:19 PM, Bob Glotzhober wrote: > I had a report from Urbana, Ohio last Wednesday evening (Aug. 18) > of a feeding swarm of �hundreds� of dragonflies. The observer was > not skilled in dragonfly ID, but based on her description, it was > dominated by Anax junius with secondarily Pantala flavescens and > perhaps two other species we could not determine. They actually > chased off an unidentified bird that was at first interested in the > swarm. In a recent communication with Mike May, he concurred with > me that in late summer (mid-August through September) in this part > of the country such large feeding swarms are �staging� phenomenon > associated with migratory swarms. This may become a repeat of the > 1993 season when in Ohio we had 7 reports of very large feeding > swarms and 3 reports of large directional, migratory flights. We > should all be alert to more observations! > > Bob > > ==================== > Robert C. Glotzhober 614/ 298-2054 > Senior Curator, Natural History bglotzhober AT ohiohistory.org > Ohio Historical Society Fax: 614/ 298-2098 > From: odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu [mailto:odonata-l- > bounces AT listhost.ups.edu] On Behalf Of Terry Morse > Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 1:16 PM > To: odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu > Subject: [Odonata-l] (Fwd) Dragonfly [Mass Flight on South Central > OregonCoast] > > I received this e-mail this morning concerning a mass flight > somewhere near Florence, on the south central Oregon coast. I > haven't seen any in the Newport (central central Oregon coast) > yet. If true to form, the species involved is Sympetrum > corruptum. More details as I get them. > > Terry Morse > tmorse AT teleport.com > http://home.teleport.com/~tmorse/index.html > > ------- Forwarded message follows ------- > From: Jim Arishenkoff > To: > Subject: Dragonfly > Date sent: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 09:29:32 -0700 > > Around 9:00 am Tuesday morning August 24, 2010. Oceania Drive. > Thousands of dragonflies going in direction of Florence. Never seen > this before, very cool experience. > We are from Grand Forks B.C on holidays. > Jim > > ------- End of forwarded message ------- > _______________________________________________ > Odonata-l mailing list > Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu > https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Dragonfly [Mass Flight on South CentralOregonCoast]
From: "McCormac, Jim" <Jim.McCormac AT dnr.state.oh.us>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 14:10:22 -0400

I have witnessed two massive swarms of Anax junius in the last week in Ohio. The first was towards the end of the day on August 21st, on the outskirts of Chillicothe in Ross County. There were untold hundreds and more likely thousands spread across a broad front. The next day, August 22nd, I witnessed another sizeable swarm involving at least hundreds of Anax junius in Adams County, in southernmost Ohio. If these swarms weren't totally Anax junius they must have been close to pure, as I was looking for other species and didn't notice anything else. I have heard of at least four other reports of green darner swarms elsewhere in Ohio. Must be the year of the green darner! Jim McCormac Jim McCormac Ohio Division of Wildlife 2045 Morse Rd., G-2 Columbus, OH 43229 614-265-6440 ________________________________ From: odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu [mailto:odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu] On Behalf Of Bob Glotzhober Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 1:20 PM To: Terry Morse; odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] (Fwd) Dragonfly [Mass Flight on South CentralOregonCoast] I had a report from Urbana, Ohio last Wednesday evening (Aug. 18) of a feeding swarm of "hundreds" of dragonflies. The observer was not skilled in dragonfly ID, but based on her description, it was dominated by Anax junius with secondarily Pantala flavescens and perhaps two other species we could not determine. They actually chased off an unidentified bird that was at first interested in the swarm. In a recent communication with Mike May, he concurred with me that in late summer (mid-August through September) in this part of the country such large feeding swarms are "staging" phenomenon associated with migratory swarms. This may become a repeat of the 1993 season when in Ohio we had 7 reports of very large feeding swarms and 3 reports of large directional, migratory flights. We should all be alert to more observations! Bob ==================== Robert C. Glotzhober 614/ 298-2054 Senior Curator, Natural History bglotzhober AT ohiohistory.org Ohio Historical Society Fax: 614/ 298-2098 ________________________________ From: odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu [mailto:odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu] On Behalf Of Terry Morse Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 1:16 PM To: odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu Subject: [Odonata-l] (Fwd) Dragonfly [Mass Flight on South Central OregonCoast] I received this e-mail this morning concerning a mass flight somewhere near Florence, on the south central Oregon coast. I haven't seen any in the Newport (central central Oregon coast) yet. If true to form, the species involved is Sympetrum corruptum. More details as I get them. Terry Morse tmorse AT teleport.com http://home.teleport.com/~tmorse/index.html ------- Forwarded message follows ------- From: Jim Arishenkoff To: Subject: Dragonfly Date sent: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 09:29:32 -0700 Around 9:00 am Tuesday morning August 24, 2010. Oceania Drive. Thousands of dragonflies going in direction of Florence. Never seen this before, very cool experience. We are from Grand Forks B.C on holidays. Jim ------- End of forwarded message ------- _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Dragonfly [Mass Flight on South Central OregonCoast]
From: Bob Glotzhober <bglotzhober AT ohiohistory.org>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 13:19:49 -0400

I had a report from Urbana, Ohio last Wednesday evening (Aug. 18) of a feeding swarm of "hundreds" of dragonflies. The observer was not skilled in dragonfly ID, but based on her description, it was dominated by Anax junius with secondarily Pantala flavescens and perhaps two other species we could not determine. They actually chased off an unidentified bird that was at first interested in the swarm. In a recent communication with Mike May, he concurred with me that in late summer (mid-August through September) in this part of the country such large feeding swarms are "staging" phenomenon associated with migratory swarms. This may become a repeat of the 1993 season when in Ohio we had 7 reports of very large feeding swarms and 3 reports of large directional, migratory flights. We should all be alert to more observations! Bob ==================== Robert C. Glotzhober 614/ 298-2054 Senior Curator, Natural History bglotzhober AT ohiohistory.org Ohio Historical Society Fax: 614/ 298-2098 ________________________________ From: odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu [mailto:odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu] On Behalf Of Terry Morse Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 1:16 PM To: odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu Subject: [Odonata-l] (Fwd) Dragonfly [Mass Flight on South Central OregonCoast] I received this e-mail this morning concerning a mass flight somewhere near Florence, on the south central Oregon coast. I haven't seen any in the Newport (central central Oregon coast) yet. If true to form, the species involved is Sympetrum corruptum. More details as I get them. Terry Morse tmorse AT teleport.com http://home.teleport.com/~tmorse/index.html ------- Forwarded message follows ------- From: Jim Arishenkoff To: Subject: Dragonfly Date sent: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 09:29:32 -0700 Around 9:00 am Tuesday morning August 24, 2010. Oceania Drive. Thousands of dragonflies going in direction of Florence. Never seen this before, very cool experience. We are from Grand Forks B.C on holidays. Jim ------- End of forwarded message ------- _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: (Fwd) Dragonfly [Mass Flight on South Central Oregon Coast]
From: Terry Morse <tmorse AT teleport.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 10:15:45 -0700

I received this e-mail this morning concerning a mass flight somewhere near Florence, on the south central Oregon coast. I haven't seen any in the Newport (central central Oregon coast) yet. If true to form, the species involved is Sympetrum corruptum. More details as I get them. Terry Morse tmorse AT teleport.com http://home.teleport.com/~tmorse/index.html ------- Forwarded message follows ------- From: Jim Arishenkoff To: Subject: Dragonfly Date sent: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 09:29:32 -0700 Around 9:00 am Tuesday morning August 24, 2010.Oceania Drive. Thousands of dragonflies going in direction of Florence. Never seen this before, very cool experience. We are from Grand Forks B.C on holidays. Jim ------- End of forwarded message -------_______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: dry pond
From: Mike May <may AT aesop.rutgers.edu>
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 10:52:13 -0400

Rob and/or Syd Cannings published an article in Odonatologica a number of years ago documenting survivial of Aeshna sitchensis in damp mud or moss in dry ponds. I suspect it's a reasonably common, but seldom documented, drought survival strategy of species that develop in ponds that are subject to intermittant drying. A few spp., including a published record for Somatochlora semicircularis and a pers. comm. from Minter Westfall concerning Tramea carolina, have been found apparently completely dehydrated (i.e., brittle, bodies float when returned to water) but that recovered after being put back in a container of water. Others can follow a humidity gradient to areas, or even nearby separate ponds that still have water (e.g., Libellula depressa studied by an Italian group, publ Ecology, Ethology & Evolution in 2007). Mike May ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathy &/or Dave Biggs" To: ; "CalOdes" ; "SoWest Odes" ; "North West Ode group" ; "Nancy Bauer" ; "Gloria & Harry Conley" Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 11:24 PM Subject: [Odonata-l] dry pond > Hello, > > Sorry for any `cross posting... > > I wanted to share an interesting observation: > > When we arrived at our summer home near Mt. Shasta (CA), we were > dismayed to find our liner pond nearly drained. That was very > disappointing, and due to range cattle damage. When we arrived, the > areas in the pond that formerly had a build-up of soil 1-3" deep and > plant roots, was still moist but cracking. By 2 hot days later, the mud > was now dry and cracked. I wanted to 'save' any plant roots that I > could, so one morning I threw a bucket of water up from the pond that > was slowly being refilled (difficult to refill as we are totally off the > grid). I was amazed when within a minute or two, two /Aeshna /type > darner nymph crawled up to the surface of the mud! Since ours is a liner > type pond, they couldn't have burrowed very deep, and berms built up > below the liner made it so they couldn't burrow down to where the small > amount of water was retained. But, it was obvious to me that this was > their survival 'tool' in the case of a pond drying up. I don't have > Corbett's (sp?) book with me, so maybe this is a well known phenomenon > with Darners, but it was interesting to me! > > Another interesting tidbit from this 20X30' pond: > > We've been having 12-spotted Skimmers (/Libellula pulchella/) emerging > each day....and one morning, I found one of our local chipmunks snacking > on a teneral one! And here I thought it was only seeds they were > searching for when they ran about the pond edges!! > > Cheers!! > Kathy Biggs > > -- > California Dragonflies http://www.sonic.net/dragonfly > Southwest Dragonflies http://southwestdragonflies.net/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Odonata-l mailing list > Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu > https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: dry pond
From: Kathy &/or Dave Biggs <bigsnest AT sonic.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 20:24:25 -0700

Hello, Sorry for any `cross posting... I wanted to share an interesting observation: When we arrived at our summer home near Mt. Shasta (CA), we were dismayed to find our liner pond nearly drained. That was very disappointing, and due to range cattle damage. When we arrived, the areas in the pond that formerly had a build-up of soil 1-3" deep and plant roots, was still moist but cracking. By 2 hot days later, the mud was now dry and cracked. I wanted to 'save' any plant roots that I could, so one morning I threw a bucket of water up from the pond that was slowly being refilled (difficult to refill as we are totally off the grid). I was amazed when within a minute or two, two /Aeshna /type darner nymph crawled up to the surface of the mud! Since ours is a liner type pond, they couldn't have burrowed very deep, and berms built up below the liner made it so they couldn't burrow down to where the small amount of water was retained. But, it was obvious to me that this was their survival 'tool' in the case of a pond drying up. I don't have Corbett's (sp?) book with me, so maybe this is a well known phenomenon with Darners, but it was interesting to me! Another interesting tidbit from this 20X30' pond: We've been having 12-spotted Skimmers (/Libellula pulchella/) emerging each day....and one morning, I found one of our local chipmunks snacking on a teneral one! And here I thought it was only seeds they were searching for when they ran about the pond edges!! Cheers!! Kathy Biggs -- California Dragonflies http://www.sonic.net/dragonfly Southwest Dragonflies http://southwestdragonflies.net/ _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: dry pond
From: Kathy &/or Dave Biggs <bigsnest AT sonic.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 20:24:25 -0700

Hello, Sorry for any `cross posting... I wanted to share an interesting observation: When we arrived at our summer home near Mt. Shasta (CA), we were dismayed to find our liner pond nearly drained. That was very disappointing, and due to range cattle damage. When we arrived, the areas in the pond that formerly had a build-up of soil 1-3" deep and plant roots, was still moist but cracking. By 2 hot days later, the mud was now dry and cracked. I wanted to 'save' any plant roots that I could, so one morning I threw a bucket of water up from the pond that was slowly being refilled (difficult to refill as we are totally off the grid). I was amazed when within a minute or two, two /Aeshna /type darner nymph crawled up to the surface of the mud! Since ours is a liner type pond, they couldn't have burrowed very deep, and berms built up below the liner made it so they couldn't burrow down to where the small amount of water was retained. But, it was obvious to me that this was their survival 'tool' in the case of a pond drying up. I don't have Corbett's (sp?) book with me, so maybe this is a well known phenomenon with Darners, but it was interesting to me! Another interesting tidbit from this 20X30' pond: We've been having 12-spotted Skimmers (/Libellula pulchella/) emerging each day....and one morning, I found one of our local chipmunks snacking on a teneral one! And here I thought it was only seeds they were searching for when they ran about the pond edges!! Cheers!! Kathy Biggs -- California Dragonflies http://www.sonic.net/dragonfly Southwest Dragonflies http://southwestdragonflies.net/
Subject: Re: basic taxonomy question
From: Thomas W Donnelly <tdonelly AT binghamton.edu>
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 21:14:35 -0400

Happily there is no rule at all. Most people now feel that the damselflies display the characters that are least evolved and consequently list them first. You will not be made to stay after school if you put dragonflies first. Nick Donnelly On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 1:49 AM, william wrote: > I am just beginning to study Odonata and have the first of many > questions. Which is supposed to come first in proper taxonomical > sequence Damselflies or Dragonflies? I was told that OdoonataCentral > is the authority to follow, but they seem to be the only ones listing > Anisoptera before Zygoptera, this in their world catalog. Every other > source i can find lists Damselflies first. Many thanks if someone can > clear up this confusion! > > -william > enid ok > william AT wa.net > _______________________________________________ > Odonata-l mailing list > Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu > https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l >_______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: Striped Saddlebags (Tramea calverti) !?!?!?!?!?! in NH!!!!
From: Hal White <halwhite AT udel.edu>
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 14:12:40 -0400

Pam, I was just about to post the first record of Tramea calverti for Delaware. It was photographed by Jim White (no relation) in Kent County Delaware near Delaware Bay on August 11. I guess there is some payoff for all of the tropical weather we have had. I wonder whether some other southern species and coastal migrants like Miathyria marcella, Orthemis ferruginea, Sympetrum corruptum, and Macrodiplax balteata might make it farther north this summer. There are many places here that have dried up and perhaps caused adult Odonata to look for new homes. Interestingly related to another current but related thread, I have seen very few Pantala flavescens this summer. Pantala hymenaea are more common in my experience. Hal Pamela Hunt wrote: > Hey everyone! > > Thanks for helping Jason on this ID - I didn't get his original email > (to my work address) until I saw is later post to the NH list. In any > event, this is species #164 for NH (if we count Gray Petaltail, which > I have doubts about). It it also clearly part of a larger movement of > southern species (Epiaeschna, T. carolina, Pantala) into the > Northeast this summer, and as Blair says, more of these will likely > be breeding soon... > > I don't subscribe to NE-Odes at work, and am having trouble sending > emails from my home account. Could someone post Jason's find to the > NH-Odes list? I think it's worth others knowing of the potential. > > And now I'm heading to Chichester, by way of other gravel pit ponds > in the vicinity... > > Pam > > >>>> Blair Nikula 08/13/10 9:14 PM >>> > > Oops, sorry, I hit the send button before writing anything. > > I completely agree this is a Striped Saddlebags. Although the > stripes are faint (probably the result of age), they're definitely > there. The other species to consider is Vermilion Saddlebags (T. > abdominalis), which was collected once on Nantucket in the 1800's. > However, in addition to an unmarked thorax, that species usually has > less black on the tip of the abdomen (especially S10) and longer > cerci. > > Congratulations - a nice find! (Though the rate things are going, > they may be breeding here in a decade or two!) > > Blair > > On 8/13/2010 7:13 PM, Steve Mirick wrote: > >> Jason Lambert caught this dragonfly this afternoon in Chichester, >> NH. Looks a lot like a potential candidate for Tramea calverti!! >> He caught it, took some photos and then released it thinking it was >> T. carolina. This is the only photo right now, but he's going to >> try to post another photo or two later. He says there are faint >> stripes on the thorax, although hard to see in photo. >> >> Opinions? >> >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/43649961 AT N02/4889388242/in/set-72157624718809860/#/ >> >> >> >> ...............Steve >> >> >> >> >> > >
Subject: Re: Striped Saddlebags (Tramea calverti) !?!?!?!?!?! in NH!!!!
From: Hal White <halwhite AT udel.edu>
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 14:12:40 -0400

Pam, I was just about to post the first record of Tramea calverti for Delaware. It was photographed by Jim White (no relation) in Kent County Delaware near Delaware Bay on August 11. I guess there is some payoff for all of the tropical weather we have had. I wonder whether some other southern species and coastal migrants like Miathyria marcella, Orthemis ferruginea, Sympetrum corruptum, and Macrodiplax balteata might make it farther north this summer. There are many places here that have dried up and perhaps caused adult Odonata to look for new homes. Interestingly related to another current but related thread, I have seen very few Pantala flavescens this summer. Pantala hymenaea are more common in my experience. Hal Pamela Hunt wrote: > Hey everyone! > > Thanks for helping Jason on this ID - I didn't get his original email > (to my work address) until I saw is later post to the NH list. In any > event, this is species #164 for NH (if we count Gray Petaltail, which > I have doubts about). It it also clearly part of a larger movement of > southern species (Epiaeschna, T. carolina, Pantala) into the > Northeast this summer, and as Blair says, more of these will likely > be breeding soon... > > I don't subscribe to NE-Odes at work, and am having trouble sending > emails from my home account. Could someone post Jason's find to the > NH-Odes list? I think it's worth others knowing of the potential. > > And now I'm heading to Chichester, by way of other gravel pit ponds > in the vicinity... > > Pam > > >>>> Blair Nikula 08/13/10 9:14 PM >>> > > Oops, sorry, I hit the send button before writing anything. > > I completely agree this is a Striped Saddlebags. Although the > stripes are faint (probably the result of age), they're definitely > there. The other species to consider is Vermilion Saddlebags (T. > abdominalis), which was collected once on Nantucket in the 1800's. > However, in addition to an unmarked thorax, that species usually has > less black on the tip of the abdomen (especially S10) and longer > cerci. > > Congratulations - a nice find! (Though the rate things are going, > they may be breeding here in a decade or two!) > > Blair > > On 8/13/2010 7:13 PM, Steve Mirick wrote: > >> Jason Lambert caught this dragonfly this afternoon in Chichester, >> NH. Looks a lot like a potential candidate for Tramea calverti!! >> He caught it, took some photos and then released it thinking it was >> T. carolina. This is the only photo right now, but he's going to >> try to post another photo or two later. He says there are faint >> stripes on the thorax, although hard to see in photo. >> >> Opinions? >> >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/43649961 AT N02/4889388242/in/set-72157624718809860/#/ >> >> >> >> ...............Steve >> >> >> >> >> > >
Subject: A new book of the Odonata of Singapore
From: "Matti Hamalainen" <matti.hamalainen AT helsinki.fi>
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 16:53:17 +0300

Hi, A new book "A photographic guide to the dragonflies of Singapore" authored by H.B. Tang, L.K. Wang and M. H�m�l�inen was launched on 2 August at Raffles Museum, Singapore. The book covers all 124 species of Odonata (both dragonflies and damselflies) so far recorded in Singapore. There are fine colour photos of nearly all species, most of them taken in natural conditions. The book provides information on the occurrence of each species in Singapore and elsewhere, tips for identification and data on biology. The paperback book is a very good value for the money (ca. 16 USD + postage). For sample pages, see http://www.greenunity.net/odonata/DOS_Book.html This website gives also a link where to buy the volume. For further information on Singapore dragonflies, see Tang's webpage http://www.greenunity.net/odonata/intro.asp Cheers, Matti H�m�l�inen_______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: basic taxonomy question
From: John Abbott <jcabbott AT mail.utexas.edu>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 09:30:48 -0500

Hi William, The online catalog hosted by OdonataCentral is alphabetical, not phylogenetic. This is a feature (putting checklists, the catalog, etc.. in phylogenetic order) I hope to implement in the future, but because these are dynamically generated, it is a bit complicated. OC also hosts a pdf of Rosser Garrison's New World Odonata list and that is in phylogenetic order (http://www.odonatacentral.org/views/pdfs/NWOL.pdf). Damselflies are generally considered the more basal group. Hope this helps. John william wrote: > I am just beginning to study Odonata and have the first of many > questions. Which is supposed to come first in proper taxonomical > sequence Damselflies or Dragonflies? I was told that OdoonataCentral > is the authority to follow, but they seem to be the only ones listing > Anisoptera before Zygoptera, this in their world catalog. Every other > source i can find lists Damselflies first. Many thanks if someone can > clear up this confusion! > > -william > enid ok > william AT wa.net > _______________________________________________ > Odonata-l mailing list > Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu > https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l > -- John C. Abbott, Ph.D. Curator of Entomology, Texas Natural Science Center Section of Integrative Biology 2907 Lake Austin Blvd. The University of Texas at Austin Austin, Texas 78703 USA Lab Phone: (512) 232-1896 Fax: (512) 475-6286 http://www.sbs.utexas.edu/jcabbott http://www.odonatacentral.org http://www.abbottnaturephotography.com _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: basic taxonomy question
From: william <william AT wa.net>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 00:49:20 -0500

I am just beginning to study Odonata and have the first of many questions. Which is supposed to come first in proper taxonomical sequence Damselflies or Dragonflies? I was told that OdoonataCentral is the authority to follow, but they seem to be the only ones listing Anisoptera before Zygoptera, this in their world catalog. Every other source i can find lists Damselflies first. Many thanks if someone can clear up this confusion! -william enid ok william AT wa.net _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Time-Specific Heightened Coloration, "Obelisking/Presenting"
From: Martha Smith <scldrgnfly AT gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 17:31:21 -0400

I would also like to make the assertion that in addition to the Pruinescent period as part of the reproductive behavior system there is a more time - specific coloration change due to the production of this "pre-copulation" fluid. In all stages camouflage is important, at times of extreme, immediate attraction, in most cases color enhancement and extra fluids are present - almost across the animal kingdom. Has anybody felt warm and got red cheeks recently when someone special comes into the room and I don't mean those of the Hamadryas Baboon! LOL! Thanks. Martha_______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: "Obelisking" and other postures....
From: Kathy &/or Dave Biggs <bigsnest AT sonic.net>
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2010 13:28:41 -0700

I think it would be worthwhile to view Dustin Huntington's DVD of NM species to see if his absolutely clear video photography has shown any of this. I just received a replacement copy for my ruined copy of this great resource and I'll try to view it soon....actually, I have 2 new copies, if anyone is interested in buying the 2nd copy, let me know. Otherwise contact Dustin at dhuntington AT exsys.com - this DVD is useful for a much larger area than just NM, but I can't find a link for it on the Internet anymore.... Cheers!! Kathy Biggs -- California Dragonflies http://www.sonic.net/dragonfly Southwest Dragonflies http://southwestdragonflies.net/ Bigsnest Wildlife Pond http://www.bigsnestpond.net/ ---------------------------------------------------------------- Kathy and Dave Biggs bigsnest AT sonic.net 707-823-2911 308 Bloomfield Rd. Sebastopol, CA 95472 dba Azalea Creek Publishing azalea AT sonic.net fax:707-823-2911 http://www.sonic.net/~bigsnest/azaleacreekpublishing/ Martha Smith wrote: > Great online guide to damselflies! Thanks Sue, John and Marla > Garrison! It's very easy to understand! > > Thank you everyone for all of this incredible information, especially > for all the published/scanned Corbet from Dr. Rowe and the link to > this wonderful resource: http://medusa.jcu.edu.au/Dragonflies/home.php. > > Mike may has been very helpful, too. Mike, could I have access to your > Florida work? Also, it is listed on the link above, but there is no > link to the actual work. I think it would be great if people could > get to your papers through there, too! Your work on thermoregulation > sounds very interesting. > > The discussion is fascinating! I am still leaning toward an > "attractive" _possibility_, as an additional purpose for the "Obelisk" > stance. I realize that by only filming a singular isolated habitat > for the past 10 years, my observations of behaviors and the behaviors > themselves can be essentially "site specific." Because of many of the > behaviors I have filmed, I do think some of them could be dual- or > multi-purpose, but I now have some understanding of the > thermo-regulatory purpose. > > I know that I have clearer videos of a dragonfly exercising its penis, > but the footage I am thinking of is of two different instances of a > perching Libellula vibrans. I shall look for them and other instances > of the behaviors to share. I am thinking, that in each of those > instances, as with the Pachydiplax longipennis on the 25th, the action > took place pre-copulation - possibly - in preparation? I will try to > put them up as soon as I can find them. It is a bit like looking for > a needle in a haystack. Ha! Ha! In addition, I will try to put up a > better upload of the female Calopteryx maculata which also appears to > be what I would term as "presenting," in order to attract for > reproduction. > > Here are some of my reasons as I just begin to formulate why I have > been thinking along these lines. I want to know what you think. I > don't want to misinterpret what I see, but I do think some of my > reasoning could be valid: > > First, I would like to preface my thoughts with the Suzuki quote > Marion Dobbs sent: "In the beginner's mind there are many > possibilities, but in the expert's mind there are few." _Shunryu > Suzuki - that is GREAT!. As a designer, I have been trained to think > outside the box and consider as many variables as possible. I also > love the Einstein quote, too: "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit > a very persistent one."_Albert Einstein. > > Also, are any of you familiar with the work of Helen Ghiradella on the > Morpho peleides, or Suichi Kinoshita and Shinya Yoshioka on structural > colors and their applications in biological systems? > > * I was looking for a behavior that is in addition to the > pruinescent stage would warn me about when they might get a > female to copulate so that I could be prepared to film the > coupling in action. Once they become pruinescent, they stay > that way, only to lose this coloring (coating?) in the act of > repeated couplings. > * From the first year (2001), I was able to film and then > determine particular physical behaviors that I think are > directly related to the immediate action of copulation. > * Also,from the first year (2001), I was able to film and then > determine particular observational (dragonflies) behaviors that > I think are directly related to the immediate action of > copulation for the purposes of site choice for immediate > oviposition - some of which can employ human > cooperation/intervention. > > 1. At the commencement of the reproductive period the pruinescent > coating appears dry and powdery. > 2. When ready to begin the direct copulation period (not only a > daily, but periodic throughout the day depending on > circumstances) the male checks the area of for intended > oviposition by scanning. > 3. As the male begins to breath more heavily, a form of fluid > coating is produced on the abdomen quite visible on the dorsal > side with drips appearing to either form at or come from the > lateral segment sides (openings?) > 4. He scans the oviposition area again, and within 5 minutes or > more, depending on the scarcity of female partners. > > * Several possible purposes: > > 1. Extra lubrication for the exoskeleton pre-copulation and/OR-for > skin buckling-referring to item #3 and attraction (I believe I > have seen this behavior more prevalent in the > "Obelisking/Presentation" position. > 2. Possibly contains pheromone/attractive substance. > 3. Additional possibility relating to the "Obelisking/Presentation" > position and my other luminescent/reflective questions of the > past: The pruinescent coating and coloring becomes much more > highly reflective and bright in the sunshine. Question: Does > this substance contain any enxymes? Or Pheromone components? > > * Things I do realize about the more complicated assumptions: > > 1. *I know the dragonflies' time is short, and so what purpose does > any of this serve? > 2. **It's daytime what would be the need of any possible > "Bioluminescent" properties? > 3. ***What purpose would the buckling of the skin serve? > > * Possible Hypotheses? > > 1. *Time is short. > 2. **They must prevail and populate, _quickly_, hence "shock and > awe"/and/or attraction. > 3. ***Increase optical reflectance. > > Very interesting observation just reaffirmed last night when I looked > at the Youtube video more closely last night. One, I think I have seen > "Obelisking/Presenting" without the form of Perspiration produced just > before going to get a female to copulate and in females, and a form of > buckling in the dry state - BUT - if you look closely at the > "Obelisking/Presenting" Pachydiplax longipennis video, you will see > that there is a difference from the shade position to the sun > position, especially when at .23 and after he extracts his penis, his > pruinescent coating is much more vivid, reflective, bright and > buckled, and at the same time the very visible "Perspiration" coat has > been produced on his abdomen (it's difficult to tell about the thorax > involvement, because it is a bit smoother-although the stripes are > highly reflective)-I'll never forget seeing an Erythemis > simplicicollis fly by out of the corner of my eye, it looked like a > green/yellow/black bar code : > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-zjoNUdKvM > > Noting the observations relating to the above video, and realizing > that the moisture film does not seem to be present in the first > shadier footage, this could possibly be evidence of the "warming (as > opposed to "cooling")" purpose of the "Obelisking/Presenting" > position, and the need for the warmth/sun (just to play with your > brains-vitamin D absorption-LOL!??) in preparation for the production > of the "Perspiration-like" substance seemingly necessary directly > before the search for a mate and copulation. > > Before I get a chance to do a new upload for the Calopteryx maculata, > here are some links to what I did quite a while ago when I filmed a > pair over a week's period that summer. I put to some lovely Thomas > Newman music from the Australian movie based on the book by Peter > Carey, "Oscar and Lucinda (any of you into Pascal both mathematician > and philosopher?)." I am hoping to do a better job of the C. maculata > albums, since I have a newer computer with a better graphics card and > can upload again. > > My idea was to combine the "real-time" footage with footage that I > took each frame and lengthened the time of the frame by a few seconds > so one could see the particular behavior somewhat better. If you have > a slow dial-up you might try later in the night, or it might not come > through at all. Consequently, while I like to think it looks rather > artistic, it is a bit of a challenge to watch without the music. LOL! > At first, because of the time delays, it is very choppy. I'll do > better next time. > > I was trying to show how the female lifted up her tail in a manner of > "presentation," but not only that, over the week's time I took the > film, the bright white substance on her tail grew from several > "glowing (ambient light reflection?)," spots to quite large, highly > reflective spots, it's as if the "presentation" mode began and reached > a period of peak reproductive time. In the darkness, when the one is > facing the camera, you can see it gently dragging its tail in the > water and lifting it and putting it back in the water on the other > side of a piece of grass. I hope to redo it soon, because I think the > actions are so interesting and relate somewhat to the "Obelisking" > position of the Pachdiplax longipennis extracting his penis on the > previously mentioned Youtube video. > > It's very dark and the resolution is not great, BUT, it includes > several very interesting behaviors, and not just the C. maculata. > Towards the end of the video, you can actually see a frog's eye come > up to the surface and blink when the C. maculata flies off! It looks > quite bizarre. I do like the music! > > Try using the 200% view. > > The first 2 minute album: > > http://marthasmith.mediashare.com?selectedalbum=marthasmith160118 > > The 7 minute extended more slide like version, the frog's eye appears > at 6:58-6:06: > http://marthasmith.mediashare.com?selectedalbum=marthasmith159751 > > The 11 minute slide like version with the tail > dipping: > http://marthasmith.mediashare.com?selectedalbum=marthasmith158981 > > > Sincerely, > > Martha Edwards Smith > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Odonata-l mailing list >Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu >https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l > >_______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: "Obelisking" and other postures-& Great Online Guide, some Calopteryx maculata videos!
From: Martha Smith <scldrgnfly AT gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 15:58:53 -0400

Great online guide to damselflies! Thanks Sue, John and Marla Garrison! It's very easy to understand! Thank you everyone for all of this incredible information, especially for all the published/scanned Corbet from Dr. Rowe and the link to this wonderful resource: http://medusa.jcu.edu.au/Dragonflies/home.php. Mike may has been very helpful, too. Mike, could I have access to your Florida work? Also, it is listed on the link above, but there is no link to the actual work. I think it would be great if people could get to your papers through there, too! Your work on thermoregulation sounds very interesting. The discussion is fascinating! I am still leaning toward an "attractive" * possibility*, as an additional purpose for the "Obelisk" stance. I realize that by only filming a singular isolated habitat for the past 10 years, my observations of behaviors and the behaviors themselves can be essentially "site specific." Because of many of the behaviors I have filmed, I do think some of them could be dual- or multi-purpose, but I now have some understanding of the thermo-regulatory purpose. I know that I have clearer videos of a dragonfly exercising its penis, but the footage I am thinking of is of two different instances of a perching Libellula vibrans. I shall look for them and other instances of the behaviors to share. I am thinking, that in each of those instances, as with the Pachydiplax longipennis on the 25th, the action took place pre-copulation - possibly - in preparation? I will try to put them up as soon as I can find them. It is a bit like looking for a needle in a haystack. Ha! Ha! In addition, I will try to put up a better upload of the female Calopteryx maculata which also appears to be what I would term as "presenting," in order to attract for reproduction. Here are some of my reasons as I just begin to formulate why I have been thinking along these lines. I want to know what you think. I don't want to misinterpret what I see, but I do think some of my reasoning could be valid: First, I would like to preface my thoughts with the Suzuki quote Marion Dobbs sent: "In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's mind there are few." _Shunryu Suzuki - that is GREAT!. As a designer, I have been trained to think outside the box and consider as many variables as possible. I also love the Einstein quote, too: "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."_Albert Einstein. Also, are any of you familiar with the work of Helen Ghiradella on the Morpho peleides, or Suichi Kinoshita and Shinya Yoshioka on structural colors and their applications in biological systems? - I was looking for a behavior that is in addition to the pruinescent stage would warn me about when they might get a female to copulate so that I could be prepared to film the coupling in action. Once they become pruinescent, they stay that way, only to lose this coloring (coating?) in the act of repeated couplings. - From the first year (2001), I was able to film and then determine particular physical behaviors that I think are directly related to the immediate action of copulation. - Also,from the first year (2001), I was able to film and then determine particular observational (dragonflies) behaviors that I think are directly related to the immediate action of copulation for the purposes of site choice for immediate oviposition - some of which can employ human cooperation/intervention. 1. At the commencement of the reproductive period the pruinescent coating appears dry and powdery. 2. When ready to begin the direct copulation period (not only a daily, but periodic throughout the day depending on circumstances) the male checks the area of for intended oviposition by scanning. 3. As the male begins to breath more heavily, a form of fluid coating is produced on the abdomen quite visible on the dorsal side with drips appearing to either form at or come from the lateral segment sides (openings?) 4. He scans the oviposition area again, and within 5 minutes or more, depending on the scarcity of female partners. - Several possible purposes: 1. Extra lubrication for the exoskeleton pre-copulation and/OR-for skin buckling-referring to item #3 and attraction (I believe I have seen this behavior more prevalent in the "Obelisking/Presentation" position. 2. Possibly contains pheromone/attractive substance. 3. Additional possibility relating to the "Obelisking/Presentation" position and my other luminescent/reflective questions of the past: The pruinescent coating and coloring becomes much more highly reflective and bright in the sunshine. Question: Does this substance contain any enxymes? Or Pheromone components? - Things I do realize about the more complicated assumptions: 1. *I know the dragonflies' time is short, and so what purpose does any of this serve? 2. **It's daytime what would be the need of any possible "Bioluminescent" properties? 3. ***What purpose would the buckling of the skin serve? - Possible Hypotheses? 1. *Time is short. 2. **They must prevail and populate, *quickly*, hence "shock and awe"/and/or attraction. 3. ***Increase optical reflectance. Very interesting observation just reaffirmed last night when I looked at the Youtube video more closely last night. One, I think I have seen "Obelisking/Presenting" without the form of Perspiration produced just before going to get a female to copulate and in females, and a form of buckling in the dry state - BUT - if you look closely at the "Obelisking/Presenting" Pachydiplax longipennis video, you will see that there is a difference from the shade position to the sun position, especially when at .23 and after he extracts his penis, his pruinescent coating is much more vivid, reflective, bright and buckled, and at the same time the very visible "Perspiration" coat has been produced on his abdomen (it's difficult to tell about the thorax involvement, because it is a bit smoother-although the stripes are highly reflective)-I'll never forget seeing an Erythemis simplicicollis fly by out of the corner of my eye, it looked like a green/yellow/black bar code : > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-zjoNUdKvM Noting the observations relating to the above video, and realizing that the moisture film does not seem to be present in the first shadier footage, this could possibly be evidence of the "warming (as opposed to "cooling")" purpose of the "Obelisking/Presenting" position, and the need for the warmth/sun (just to play with your brains-vitamin D absorption-LOL!??) in preparation for the production of the "Perspiration-like" substance seemingly necessary directly before the search for a mate and copulation. Before I get a chance to do a new upload for the Calopteryx maculata, here are some links to what I did quite a while ago when I filmed a pair over a week's period that summer. I put to some lovely Thomas Newman music from the Australian movie based on the book by Peter Carey, "Oscar and Lucinda (any of you into Pascal both mathematician and philosopher?)." I am hoping to do a better job of the C. maculata albums, since I have a newer computer with a better graphics card and can upload again. My idea was to combine the "real-time" footage with footage that I took each frame and lengthened the time of the frame by a few seconds so one could see the particular behavior somewhat better. If you have a slow dial-up you might try later in the night, or it might not come through at all. Consequently, while I like to think it looks rather artistic, it is a bit of a challenge to watch without the music. LOL! At first, because of the time delays, it is very choppy. I'll do better next time. I was trying to show how the female lifted up her tail in a manner of "presentation," but not only that, over the week's time I took the film, the bright white substance on her tail grew from several "glowing (ambient light reflection?)," spots to quite large, highly reflective spots, it's as if the "presentation" mode began and reached a period of peak reproductive time. In the darkness, when the one is facing the camera, you can see it gently dragging its tail in the water and lifting it and putting it back in the water on the other side of a piece of grass. I hope to redo it soon, because I think the actions are so interesting and relate somewhat to the "Obelisking" position of the Pachdiplax longipennis extracting his penis on the previously mentioned Youtube video. It's very dark and the resolution is not great, BUT, it includes several very interesting behaviors, and not just the C. maculata. Towards the end of the video, you can actually see a frog's eye come up to the surface and blink when the C. maculata flies off! It looks quite bizarre. I do like the music! Try using the 200% view. The first 2 minute album: http://marthasmith.mediashare.com?selectedalbum=marthasmith160118 The 7 minute extended more slide like version, the frog's eye appears at 6:58-6:06: http://marthasmith.mediashare.com?selectedalbum=marthasmith159751 The 11 minute slide like version with the tail dipping: http://marthasmith.mediashare.com?selectedalbum=marthasmith158981 Sincerely, Martha Edwards Smith_______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: damselfly behavior
From: "Tom D. Schultz" <schultz AT denison.edu>
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 07:33:18 -0400

Dear Everyone, If you have familiarity with the damselflies Enallagma concisum (Cherry Bluet),E. sulcatum (Golden Bluet), or E. pollutum (Florida Bluet), I'd like to hear about your observations of males in the field. Although bluet males are not perceived as having fixed territories, some exhibit aggressive behaviors towards other males, chasing or fighting with males flying by while returning to the same perch. If you have observed this behavior in any of the three species above, I'd like to hear about. Thank you! Tom Tom D. Schultz, Ph.D. Professor of Biology Denison University Granville, OH 43023 740-587-6218 _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Calopteryx maculata
From: George Sims <georgesims AT hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 16:48:34 -0500

Folks, I'm interested in learning EVERYTHING I can about Ebony jewelwings. They are ubiquitous in southern Missouri, obscenely easy to identify and catch (for a 58-year-old geezer), and fascinating to watch. Since I am not an academic, and have no access to scientific papers, I'd appreciate .pdf files on any subject relating to C. maculata. Even with my terribly slow dialup Internet service, I can access and print anything you might find of interest. Feel free to e-mail me at georgesims AT hotmail.com.odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu Thanks. George Sims Mansfield, Missouri _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: Obelisking
From: Mike May <may AT aesop.rutgers.edu>
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 14:02:30 -0400

Quite awhile ago, I spent several hot but enjoyable Florida summers studying body temperature regulation in a variety of dragonflies, especially in Pachydiplax longipennis. This was published (May, M. L. 1976. Thermoregulation and adaptation to temperature in dragonflies (Odonata: Anisoptera). Ecol. Monogr. 46:1-32), and I have pdf's if anyone wants the whole story in one indigestible lump. It would take too long to describe all the nuances of behavior here, but suffice it to say that the obelisk is pretty clearly a very important posture that is almost (but I'll hedge on this) always used to prevent excessive heating, and it can be shown to be pretty effective in doing this. Pachydiplax don't seem to seek shade unless it's so hot that they simply have to abandon feeding or reproduction and go hide out; they may perch in shade if air temperature is high enough to permit this, but they don't obviously seek it out in response to high temperature (I won't vouch for this in desert or semidesert areas of the western U.S. or Mexico, though). By far the most common basking posture, i.e., one that serves to maximize heat gain when air temperature is cool, is, as Dennis says, to hold the body flat but oriented perpendicular to the sun. They will also sometimes hang on the side of a stem with their back to the sun, as Dennis describes for Libellula and others. On very rare occasions, I have seen them face the sun and raise their abdomen, apparently gaining heat in the way that George and Glenn suggest, but this is exceptional. It is also true, as Cliff Johnson documented even more years ago, that male Pachydiplax will raise their abdomen, either while perched or in flight, as a threat display directed at other males during territorial disputes at rendezvous sites. This can be mistaken for an obelisk, but usually the abdomen is slightly curled upward rather than being held straight, and there's almost always another male either being chased or threatening back. One comment on Dennis' comment that the obelisk is does not occur in Erythemis - I've never seen it either, but James Needham, in the original Needham & Westfall (1955) says the following about Erythemis peruviana (Flame-tailed Pondhawk): "Adult males may sometimes be seen sitting in the sun, with body flattened down against a floating leaf, flaming red abdomen erected and held steadily aloft, like a miniature obelisk." I don't know if his observation was correct, but this is, to my knowledge, the first use of the term "obelisk" in connection with this behavior. This discussion originated with the observation and video posted to YouTube by Martha Smith of a male Pachydiplax in an obelisk, repeatedly extruding and retracting it's penis. That was actually the most interesting part of the observation to me (which may say something about my Freudian depths). The best idea I can come up with is that the individual had recently mated and was divesting itself of (formerly) rival sperm that it had removed from that female. Any additional ideas? Mike May ----- Original Message ----- From: dennispaulson AT comcast.net To: George Sims Cc: odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 8:51 PM Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Obelisking George, Odonates very commonly perch with their body perpendicular to the sun's rays to warm up in the morning and evening, but they do it with the abdomen pointing down, rather than up. I have never seen the reverse. Several people have presented good information on obelisking. One interesting thing is that it seems only to be done by libellulids and gomphids, probably also by calopterygids and at least a few species of Argia in the Coenagrionidae. If anyone has seen any other odonates doing it, I'd like to hear which ones. I guess it's obvious that the "fliers" that hang down when they perch wouldn't do this, but there are also some perchers that don't do it. Species of the genera Libellula and Orthemis and perhaps many of their relatives in the tribe or clade Libellulini (females of most of these have flanges on the 8th abdominal segment) don't seem to obelisk. Instead, when they are under hot midday situations, they hang in the shade of a stem much like an aeshnid or corduliid would do. I think this is true of Orthetrum also, but I know that genus less well. Some other genera seem never to obelisk or hang, e.g., Erythemis and Plathemis. Perhaps it is because most of their perching is on or near the ground. Is their thermoregulatory behavior dictated from their ground-perching, or is their ground-perching dictated by their use of a particular thermoregulatory strategy? There are still many unanswered questions about perching behavior in dragonflies. Why do some droop their wings, others raise them, and others do neither? Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Sims" To: odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu Sent: Sunday, August 1, 2010 3:48:24 PM Subject: [Odonata-l] Obelisking I appreciate that "obelisking" is used to cool the body, by pointing the abdomen directly toward the heat source (sun), thus exposing a smaller total body surface to the heat. Could it not also be used to warm the body early in the morning or late in the evening, when the same posture would expose MORE of the abdomen to heat? > From: odonata-l-request AT listhost.ups.edu > Subject: Odonata-l Digest, Vol 79, Issue 1 > To: odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu > Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 12:00:05 -0700 > > Send Odonata-l mailing list submissions to > odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > odonata-l-request AT listhost.ups.edu > > You can reach the person managing the list at > odonata-l-owner AT listhost.ups.edu > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Odonata-l digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Opening a discussion of the "Obelisk" position and > hopefully, a better title for the video showing the reproductive > movement, possible suggestions for development of a long-term > museum habitat (Marion Dobbs) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 19:47:35 -0400 > From: Marion Dobbs > Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Opening a discussion of the "Obelisk" > position and hopefully, a better title for the video showing the > reproductive movement, possible suggestions for development of a > long-term museum habitat > To: Odonata List Server > Message-ID: <72E3860F-6185-4764-9A5E-4F58F5C7C5FD AT mac.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Martha, > > I highly recommend this book: Dragonflies: Behaviour and Ecology of Odonata by Philip S. Corbet > > It is pricey, but your interest level seems high enough to possibly warrant the investment. Reading it would answer many of your questions, I think. > > As for obelisking, any number of references describe this behavior as thermoregulatory in nature. But it is a means of cooling, not warming the body. This is accomplished by minimizing the surface area exposed to the sun and is a good strategy for these insects which are exothermic and thus unable to internally regulate body temperature as are we humans, for instance. > > Marion Dobbs > > Marion Dobbs > 9 Bridlewood Lane > Rome GA 30165 > ecurlew AT mac.com > http://www.mamomi.net > http://mariondobbs.smugmug.com/ > http://ponddamsel.phanfare.com/ > > "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."_Albert Einstein > > > On Jul 29, 2010, at 7:06 PM, Martha Smith wrote: > > > I would like to open up a discussion about the "Obelisk" position and I am resubmitting the link in yesterday's email to my video with, I hope a better title and word usage, since I have been told my unfortunate choice of words probably sent many of your posts to your SPAM box. Everyone, feel free to correct me, and help me with the descriptive anatomical terms. The title now is: "Dragonfly "Obelisk" For Warming? Or, Form of "Presenting" for Reproductive Purposes?" Most importantly, at about .23 it will begin to exercise its reproductive organs. > > > > The Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-zjoNUdKvM > > > > I apologize if I am not up to speed on recent discussions about the "Obelisk" position and other things discussed, I am a designer and I have a very busy 17 year old who is beginning to apply for colleges. I also apologize for talking for such a long time about what I have filmed and not getting it out there for you all to see for comment. I have had numerous difficulties with aged, but fantastic equipment, and most importantly, I had to wait for the technology to catch up with my dreams of sharing it with all of you. > > > > First - Observations: > > > > **It is my understanding that the previous thinking has been the "Obelisk" position is a means for warming up the body of the dragonfly and better exposing the abdomen to the sun, for warmth. I think my previous films of my habitat may provide some clues, but I shall have to go back to provide proof of some of my hypotheses.** Please let me know if this thinking has changed until now. If it hasn't, I think my observations and videos may shed some light on this particular behavior and help us to figure out its significance. > > For the first several years that I observed and filmed this particular habitat, I did not see the Pachydiplax longipennis dragonflies exhibiting this behavior. > > I think the first time I saw this behavior was in a female, and, at the time, I wondered if it was so a male could see her more easily, over the last few years the males use this behavior more and more. > > None of the other species in adjacent habitats or the Libellula vibrans' in this particular habitat had exhibited this behavior until last year > > I will have to go back and look, BUT, there seem to be several factors that have happened concurrently with this behavior: * Competition, which was nonexistent, has increased, *We have experienced extreme drought conditions, after a long term high water level situation, *This year, especially, our summer temperatures are much higher. > > Beginning last year, more and more often, I see both male and female P. l.'s in the "Obelisk" position -- but, most importantly, on July 24th when I was trying to film a segment for "Life In A Day," once there was an available female waiting in the bushes near the oviposition site, neither the male nor female used this behavior, they just stayed in their normal position while resting. > > Interestingly enough,the film that is up on Youtube that shows the "Obelisk" position and the exhibition of reproductive organs was shot on the 25th - the day after. On the 25, the female had disappeared (died, moved to another habitat, or whatever). Over and over the male would go over to the section of bush where she had rested. After repeatedly checking the section of bushes where she had rested each time on the 24th, he resorted to first, going to the central location of the rope to - as I have begun calling it "Present (for what I think may be reproductive attraction)." When that centrally located spot did not produce results, the dragonfly moved to a much higher position, closer to the actual oviposition site, and closer to a more universally visible area, which is also closer to another section of bushes where dragonflies have also rested/or waited for possible mates. > > When all else fails, they move way over to the other side of the 12 foot bushes on the eastern side, which is most open to the rest of the neighborhood and the open, almost dried up stream 150' away, where there is a great deal of competition and possible free mates. > > At the highest branches of our trees (80 ft.), waiting dragonflies have a great vantage point to see where not only possible mates are, but also the best places to bring mates for healthy oviposition. > > They don't mind nasty water, but there needs to be some, and up until this year, I thought the sun was a big factor in choice - the heat of the sun, yes, but not necessarily its light . > > On the 24th, I got some footage of ovipositing in a very dark spot in our habitat. Now I know the temperature was very warm, but I sincerely think, one reason for this choice is because of some of the erosion we have had in our habitat. The shadier sections have a much higher content of clay, my foot sinks deeply into the loam and leaves wonderfully deep depressions that hold the water for quite a long time before sinking into the soil. The higher sunnier sections have more sand and are harder, less porous surfaces. I can hardly jam my heel into the sand, and it no longer leaves much of a place for a very long standing pool of water. > > In addition to all of this is the issue of our town beginning to spray for mosquitoes in the past several years - does this have an effect on the number of females produced in a specific habitat? > > Possible Conclusions: > > The "Obelisk" position is possibly for reproductive attraction in times of competition, either due to the results of more difficult environments, toxins or just fewer females or males at a given time - only once did I see females competing for a male in the past years. > > When it comes to the exercising of the reproductive organs, does the "Obelisk" position tend to dry out those areas and in order for them to work properly and not stick together, do they need to be worked? Because--I often see the dragonflies in this position without their having the need to exercise them, IE. the first segment of the video.--AND--it the first segment was in a less sunny area. > > While I say Global Climate Change - I do wonder if it has to do with the ability of the diminished water level in a given area to keep temperatures down in particular areas. > > I would say clay is an important component in a specific habitat's soil. It seems to keep the water from sinking into the ground too fast for the oviposited eggs. I have film of the male dragonflies seemingly checking out this property before bringing a female back to oviposit in a specific area. > > I think once eggs are washed or placed in a specific area, possibly nymphs, they will "come back," there is definitely species habitat memory or allegiance-need a better term. The soil can dry out at times, but during the reproductive phase, it has to have a very good amount of water, especially during the times of 11 a.m. to 2 p.m. > > Give it three years to establish and I think it could be a great open museum habitat. > > Thanks. > > > > Martha Edwards Smith > > _______________________________________________ > > Odonata-l mailing list > > Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu > > https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l > > Marion M. Dobbs > 9 Bridlewood Lane > Rome GA 30165 > pond_damsel AT comcast.net > http://www.mamomi.net/Odonata > http://ponddamsel.phanfare.com > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://mailweb.ups.edu/pipermail/odonata-l/attachments/20100729/6667092d/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Odonata-l mailing list > Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu > https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l > > > End of Odonata-l Digest, Vol 79, Issue 1 > **************************************** _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: Obelisking
From: Marion Dobbs <spreadwing AT mac.com>
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2010 22:08:56 -0400

Personal observation - tiny sample. In light of this discussion, I paid particular attention when I was recently in the field - in the pond actually - on a day that was sunny and hot (98F); I was there from about 1:30 to 2:30 PM. The most common species present was Blue Dasher (Pachydiplax longipennis), I probably saw 15-20. With two exceptions, each individual was obelisking or assumed that position shortly after perching. The two which were not pointing up were pointing down, i.e., hanging from a stem with abdomen pointed diagonally downward. Marion Marion Dobbs 9 Bridlewood Lane Rome GA 30165 ecurlew AT mac.com http://www.mamomi.net http://mariondobbs.smugmug.com/ http://ponddamsel.phanfare.com/ "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge." _ Daniel Boorstin On Aug 1, 2010, at 8:51 PM, dennispaulson AT comcast.net wrote: > George, > > Odonates very commonly perch with their body perpendicular to the sun's rays to warm up in the morning and evening, but they do it with the abdomen pointing down, rather than up. I have never seen the reverse. > > Several people have presented good information on obelisking. One interesting thing is that it seems only to be done by libellulids and gomphids, probably also by calopterygids and at least a few species of Argia in the Coenagrionidae. If anyone has seen any other odonates doing it, I'd like to hear which ones. I guess it's obvious that the "fliers" that hang down when they perch wouldn't do this, but there are also some perchers that don't do it. > > Species of the genera Libellula and Orthemis and perhaps many of their relatives in the tribe or clade Libellulini (females of most of these have flanges on the 8th abdominal segment) don't seem to obelisk. Instead, when they are under hot midday situations, they hang in the shade of a stem much like an aeshnid or corduliid would do. I think this is true of Orthetrum also, but I know that genus less well. Some other genera seem never to obelisk or hang, e.g., Erythemis and Plathemis. Perhaps it is because most of their perching is on or near the ground. Is their thermoregulatory behavior dictated from their ground-perching, or is their ground-perching dictated by their use of a particular thermoregulatory strategy? > > There are still many unanswered questions about perching behavior in dragonflies. Why do some droop their wings, others raise them, and others do neither? > > Dennis > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "George Sims" > To: odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu > Sent: Sunday, August 1, 2010 3:48:24 PM > Subject: [Odonata-l] Obelisking > > I appreciate that "obelisking" is used to cool the body, by pointing the abdomen directly toward the heat source (sun), thus exposing a smaller total body surface to the heat. Could it not also be used to warm the body early in the morning or late in the evening, when the same posture would expose MORE of the abdomen to heat? > > > From: odonata-l-request AT listhost.ups.edu > > Subject: Odonata-l Digest, Vol 79, Issue 1 > > To: odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu > > Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 12:00:05 -0700 > > > > Send Odonata-l mailing list submissions to > > odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > odonata-l-request AT listhost.ups.edu > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > odonata-l-owner AT listhost.ups.edu > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Odonata-l digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: Opening a discussion of the "Obelisk" position and > > hopefully, a better title for the video showing the reproductive > > movement, possible suggestions for development of a long-term > > museum habitat (Marion Dobbs) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: Obelisking
From: dennispaulson AT comcast.net
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 00:51:28 +0000 (UTC)

George, Odonates very commonly perch with their body perpendicular to the sun's rays to warm up in the morning and evening, but they do it with the abdomen pointing down, rather than up. I have never seen the reverse. Several people have presented good information on obelisking. One interesting thing is that it seems only to be done by libellulids and gomphids, probably also by calopterygids and at least a few species of Argia in the Coenagrionidae. If anyone has seen any other odonates doing it, I'd like to hear which ones. I guess it's obvious that the "fliers" that hang down when they perch wouldn't do this, but there are also some perchers that don't do it. Species of the genera Libellula and Orthemis and perhaps many of their relatives in the tribe or clade Libellulini (females of most of these have flanges on the 8th abdominal segment) don't seem to obelisk. Instead, when they are under hot midday situations, they hang in the shade of a stem much like an aeshnid or corduliid would do. I think this is true of Orthetrum also, but I know that genus less well. Some other genera seem never to obelisk or hang, e.g., Erythemis and Plathemis . Perhaps it is because most of their perching is on or near the ground. Is their thermoregulatory behavior dictated from their ground-perching, or is their ground-perching dictated by their use of a particular thermoregulatory strategy? There are still many unanswered questions about perching behavior in dragonflies. Why do some droop their wings, others raise them, and others do neither? Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Sims" To: odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu Sent: Sunday, August 1, 2010 3:48:24 PM Subject: [Odonata-l] Obelisking I appreciate that "obelisking" is used to cool the body, by pointing the abdomen directly toward the heat source (sun), thus exposing a smaller total body surface to the heat. Could it not also be used to warm the body early in the morning or late in the evening, when the same posture would expose MORE of the abdomen to heat? > From: odonata-l-request AT listhost.ups.edu > Subject: Odonata-l Digest, Vol 79, Issue 1 > To: odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu > Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 12:00:05 -0700 > > Send Odonata-l mailing list submissions to > odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > odonata-l-request AT listhost.ups.edu > > You can reach the person managing the list at > odonata-l-owner AT listhost.ups.edu > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Odonata-l digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Opening a discussion of the "Obelisk" position and > hopefully, a better title for the video showing the reproductive > movement, possible suggestions for development of a long-term > museum habitat (Marion Dobbs) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 19:47:35 -0400 > From: Marion Dobbs > Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Opening a discussion of the "Obelisk" > position and hopefully, a better title for the video showing the > reproductive movement, possible suggestions for development of a > long-term museum habitat > To: Odonata List Server > Message-ID: <72E3860F-6185-4764-9A5E-4F58F5C7C5FD AT mac.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Martha, > > I highly recommend this book: Dragonflies: Behaviour and Ecology of Odonata by Philip S. Corbet > > It is pricey, but your interest level seems high enough to possibly warrant the investment. Reading it would answer many of your questions, I think. > > As for obelisking, any number of references describe this behavior as thermoregulatory in nature. But it is a means of cooling, not warming the body. This is accomplished by minimizing the surface area exposed to the sun and is a good strategy for these insects which are exothermic and thus unable to internally regulate body temperature as are we humans, for instance. > > Marion Dobbs > > Marion Dobbs > 9 Bridlewood Lane > Rome GA 30165 > ecurlew AT mac.com > http://www.mamomi.net > http://mariondobbs.smugmug.com/ > http://ponddamsel.phanfare.com/ > > "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."_Albert Einstein > > > On Jul 29, 2010, at 7:06 PM, Martha Smith wrote: > > > I would like to open up a discussion about the "Obelisk" position and I am resubmitting the link in yesterday's email to my video with, I hope a better title and word usage, since I have been told my unfortunate choice of words probably sent many of your posts to your SPAM box. Everyone, feel free to correct me, and help me with the descriptive anatomical terms. The title now is: "Dragonfly "Obelisk" For Warming? Or, Form of "Presenting" for Reproductive Purposes?" Most importantly, at about .23 it will begin to exercise its reproductive organs. > > > > The Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-zjoNUdKvM > > > > I apologize if I am not up to speed on recent discussions about the "Obelisk" position and other things discussed, I am a designer and I have a very busy 17 year old who is beginning to apply for colleges. I also apologize for talking for such a long time about what I have filmed and not getting it out there for you all to see for comment. I have had numerous difficulties with aged, but fantastic equipment, and most importantly, I had to wait for the technology to catch up with my dreams of sharing it with all of you. > > > > First - Observations: > > > > **It is my understanding that the previous thinking has been the "Obelisk" position is a means for warming up the body of the dragonfly and better exposing the abdomen to the sun, for warmth. I think my previous films of my habitat may provide some clues, but I shall have to go back to provide proof of some of my hypotheses.** Please let me know if this thinking has changed until now. If it hasn't, I think my observations and videos may shed some light on this particular behavior and help us to figure out its significance. > > For the first several years that I observed and filmed this particular habitat, I did not see the Pachydiplax longipennis dragonflies exhibiting this behavior. > > I think the first time I saw this behavior was in a female, and, at the time, I wondered if it was so a male could see her more easily, over the last few years the males use this behavior more and more. > > None of the other species in adjacent habitats or the Libellula vibrans' in this particular habitat had exhibited this behavior until last year > > I will have to go back and look, BUT, there seem to be several factors that have happened concurrently with this behavior: * Competition, which was nonexistent, has increased, *We have experienced extreme drought conditions, after a long term high water level situation, *This year, especially, our summer temperatures are much higher. > > Beginning last year, more and more often, I see both male and female P. l.'s in the "Obelisk" position -- but, most importantly, on July 24th when I was trying to film a segment for "Life In A Day," once there was an available female waiting in the bushes near the oviposition site, neither the male nor female used this behavior, they just stayed in their normal position while resting. > > Interestingly enough,the film that is up on Youtube that shows the "Obelisk" position and the exhibition of reproductive organs was shot on the 25th - the day after. On the 25, the female had disappeared (died, moved to another habitat, or whatever). Over and over the male would go over to the section of bush where she had rested. After repeatedly checking the section of bushes where she had rested each time on the 24th, he resorted to first, going to the central location of the rope to - as I have begun calling it "Present (for what I think may be reproductive attraction)." When that centrally located spot did not produce results, the dragonfly moved to a much higher position, closer to the actual oviposition site, and closer to a more universally visible area, which is also closer to another section of bushes where dragonflies have also rested/or waited for possible mates. > > When all else fails, they move way over to the other side of the 12 foot bushes on the eastern side, which is most open to the rest of the neighborhood and the open, almost dried up stream 150' away, where there is a great deal of competition and possible free mates. > > At the highest branches of our trees (80 ft.), waiting dragonflies have a great vantage point to see where not only possible mates are, but also the best places to bring mates for healthy oviposition. > > They don't mind nasty water, but there needs to be some, and up until this year, I thought the sun was a big factor in choice - the heat of the sun, yes, but not necessarily its light . > > On the 24th, I got some footage of ovipositing in a very dark spot in our habitat. Now I know the temperature was very warm, but I sincerely think, one reason for this choice is because of some of the erosion we have had in our habitat. The shadier sections have a much higher content of clay, my foot sinks deeply into the loam and leaves wonderfully deep depressions that hold the water for quite a long time before sinking into the soil. The higher sunnier sections have more sand and are harder, less porous surfaces. I can hardly jam my heel into the sand, and it no longer leaves much of a place for a very long standing pool of water. > > In addition to all of this is the issue of our town beginning to spray for mosquitoes in the past several years - does this have an effect on the number of females produced in a specific habitat? > > Possible Conclusions: > > The "Obelisk" position is possibly for reproductive attraction in times of competition, either due to the results of more difficult environments, toxins or just fewer females or males at a given time - only once did I see females competing for a male in the past years. > > When it comes to the exercising of the reproductive organs, does the "Obelisk" position tend to dry out those areas and in order for them to work properly and not stick together, do they need to be worked? Because--I often see the dragonflies in this position without their having the need to exercise them, IE. the first segment of the video.--AND--it the first segment was in a less sunny area. > > While I say Global Climate Change - I do wonder if it has to do with the ability of the diminished water level in a given area to keep temperatures down in particular areas. > > I would say clay is an important component in a specific habitat's soil. It seems to keep the water from sinking into the ground too fast for the oviposited eggs. I have film of the male dragonflies seemingly checking out this property before bringing a female back to oviposit in a specific area. > > I think once eggs are washed or placed in a specific area, possibly nymphs, they will "come back," there is definitely species habitat memory or allegiance-need a better term. The soil can dry out at times, but during the reproductive phase, it has to have a very good amount of water, especially during the times of 11 a.m. to 2 p.m. > > Give it three years to establish and I think it could be a great open museum habitat. > > Thanks. > > > > Martha Edwards Smith > > _______________________________________________ > > Odonata-l mailing list > > Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu > > https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l > > Marion M. Dobbs > 9 Bridlewood Lane > Rome GA 30165 > pond_damsel AT comcast.net > http://www.mamomi.net/Odonata > http://ponddamsel.phanfare.com > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://mailweb.ups.edu/pipermail/odonata-l/attachments/20100729/6667092d/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Odonata-l mailing list > Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu > https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l > > > End of Odonata-l Digest, Vol 79, Issue 1 > **************************************** _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: Obelisking
From: Glenn Corbiere <gcorbiere AT dragonhunter.net>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 17:24:42 -0700 (PDT)

I'm with George on this one - it seems to me that the two would go hand in hand. Glenn Glenn Corbiere 100 Prospect St. Chester, MA. 01011-9657 www.dragonhunter.net ________________________________ From: George Sims To: odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu Sent: Sun, August 1, 2010 6:48:24 PM Subject: [Odonata-l] Obelisking I appreciate that "obelisking" is used to cool the body, by pointing the abdomen directly toward the heat source (sun), thus exposing a smaller total body surface to the heat. Could it not also be used to warm the body early in the morning or late in the evening, when the same posture would expose MORE of the abdomen to heat? > From: odonata-l-request AT listhost.ups.edu > Subject: Odonata-l Digest, Vol 79, Issue 1 > To: odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu > Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 12:00:05 -0700 > > Send Odonata-l mailing list submissions to > odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > odonata-l-request AT listhost.ups.edu > > You can reach the person managing the list at > odonata-l-owner AT listhost.ups.edu > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Odonata-l digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Opening a discussion of the "Obelisk" position and > hopefully, a better title for the video showing the reproductive > movement, possible suggestions for development of a long-term > museum habitat (Marion Dobbs) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 19:47:35 -0400 > From: Marion Dobbs > Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Opening a discussion of the "Obelisk" > position and hopefully, a better title for the video showing the > reproductive movement, possible suggestions for development of a > long-term museum habitat > To: Odonata List Server > Message-ID: <72E3860F-6185-4764-9A5E-4F58F5C7C5FD AT mac.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Martha, > > I highly recommend this book: Dragonflies: Behaviour and Ecology of Odonata by >Philip S. Corbet > > > It is pricey, but your interest level seems high enough to possibly warrant the >investment. Reading it would answer many of your questions, I think. > > As for obelisking, any number of references describe this behavior as >thermoregulatory in nature. But it is a means of cooling, not warming the body. >This is accomplished by minimizing the surface area exposed to the sun and is a >good strategy for these insects which are exothermic and thus unable to >internally regulate body temperature as are we humans, for instance. > > Marion Dobbs > > Marion Dobbs > 9 Bridlewood Lane > Rome GA 30165 > ecurlew AT mac.com > http://www.mamomi.net > http://mariondobbs.smugmug.com/ > http://ponddamsel.phanfare.com/ > > "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."_Albert Einstein > > > On Jul 29, 2010, at 7:06 PM, Martha Smith wrote: > > > I would like to open up a discussion about the "Obelisk" position and I am >resubmitting the link in yesterday's email to my video with, I hope a better >title and word usage, since I have been told my unfortunate choice of words >probably sent many of your posts to your SPAM box. Everyone, feel free to >correct me, and help me with the descriptive anatomical terms. The title now is: >"Dragonfly "Obelisk" For Warming? Or, Form of "Presenting" for Reproductive >Purposes?" Most importantly, at about .23 it will begin to exercise its >reproductive organs. > > > > The Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-zjoNUdKvM > > > > I apologize if I am not up to speed on recent discussions about the "Obelisk" >position and other things discussed, I am a designer and I have a very busy 17 >year old who is beginning to apply for colleges. I also apologize for talking >for such a long time about what I have filmed and not getting it out there for >you all to see for comment. I have had numerous difficulties with aged, but >fantastic equipment, and most importantly, I had to wait for the technology to >catch up with my dreams of sharing it with all of you. > > > > First - Observations: > > > > **It is my understanding that the previous thinking has been the "Obelisk" >position is a means for warming up the body of the dragonfly and better exposing >the abdomen to the sun, for warmth. I think my previous films of my habitat may >provide some clues, but I shall have to go back to provide proof of some of my >hypotheses.** Please let me know if this thinking has changed until now. If it >hasn't, I think my observations and videos may shed some light on this >particular behavior and help us to figure out its significance. > > For the first several years that I observed and filmed this particular >habitat, I did not see the Pachydiplax longipennis dragonflies exhibiting this >behavior. > > I think the first time I saw this behavior was in a female, and, at the time, >I wondered if it was so a male could see her more easily, over the last few >years the males use this behavior more and more. > > None of the other species in adjacent habitats or the Libellula vibrans' in >this particular habitat had exhibited this behavior until last year > > I will have to go back and look, BUT, there seem to be several factors that >have happened concurrently with this behavior: * Competition, which was >nonexistent, has increased, *We have experienced extreme drought conditions, >after a long term high water level situation, *This year, especially, our summer >temperatures are much higher. > > Beginning last year, more and more often, I see both male and female P. l.'s >in the "Obelisk" position -- but, most importantly, on July 24th when I was >trying to film a segment for "Life In A Day," once there was an available female >waiting in the bushes near the oviposition site, neither the male nor female >used this behavior, they just stayed in their normal position while resting. > > Interestingly enough,the film that is up on Youtube that shows the "Obelisk" >position and the exhibition of reproductive organs was shot on the 25th - the >day after. On the 25, the female had disappeared (died, moved to another >habitat, or whatever). Over and over the male would go over to the section of >bush where she had rested. After repeatedly checking the section of bushes where >she had rested each time on the 24th, he resorted to first, going to the central >location of the rope to - as I have begun calling it "Present (for what I think >may be reproductive attraction)." When that centrally located spot did not >produce results, the dragonfly moved to a much higher position, closer to the >actual oviposition site, and closer to a more universally visible area, which is >also closer to another section of bushes where dragonflies have also rested/or >waited for possible mates. > > When all else fails, they move way over to the other side of the 12 foot >bushes on the eastern side, which is most open to the rest of the neighborhood >and the open, almost dried up stream 150' away, where there is a great deal of >competition and possible free mates. > > At the highest branches of our trees (80 ft.), waiting dragonflies have a >great vantage point to see where not only possible mates are, but also the best >places to bring mates for healthy oviposition. > > They don't mind nasty water, but there needs to be some, and up until this >year, I thought the sun was a big factor in choice - the heat of the sun, yes, >but not necessarily its light . > > On the 24th, I got some footage of ovipositing in a very dark spot in our >habitat. Now I know the temperature was very warm, but I sincerely think, one >reason for this choice is because of some of the erosion we have had in our >habitat. The shadier sections have a much higher content of clay, my foot sinks >deeply into the loam and leaves wonderfully deep depressions that hold the water >for quite a long time before sinking into the soil. The higher sunnier sections >have more sand and are harder, less porous surfaces. I can hardly jam my heel >into the sand, and it no longer leaves much of a place for a very long standing >pool of water. > > In addition to all of this is the issue of our town beginning to spray for >mosquitoes in the past several years - does this have an effect on the number of >females produced in a specific habitat? > > Possible Conclusions: > > The "Obelisk" position is possibly for reproductive attraction in times of >competition, either due to the results of more difficult environments, toxins or >just fewer females or males at a given time - only once did I see females >competing for a male in the past years. > > When it comes to the exercising of the reproductive organs, does the >"Obelisk" position tend to dry out those areas and in order for them to work >properly and not stick together, do they need to be worked? Because--I often see >the dragonflies in this position without their having the need to exercise them, >IE. the first segment of the video.--AND--it the first segment was in a less >sunny area. > > While I say Global Climate Change - I do wonder if it has to do with the >ability of the diminished water level in a given area to keep temperatures down >in particular areas. > > I would say clay is an important component in a specific habitat's soil. It >seems to keep the water from sinking into the ground too fast for the oviposited >eggs. I have film of the male dragonflies seemingly checking out this property >before bringing a female back to oviposit in a specific area. > > I think once eggs are washed or placed in a specific area, possibly nymphs, >they will "come back," there is definitely species habitat memory or >allegiance-need a better term. The soil can dry out at times, but during the >reproductive phase, it has to have a very good amount of water, especially >during the times of 11 a.m. to 2 p.m. > > Give it three years to establish and I think it could be a great open museum >habitat. > > Thanks. > > > > Martha Edwards Smith > > _______________________________________________ > > Odonata-l mailing list > > Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu > > https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l > > Marion M. Dobbs > 9 Bridlewood Lane > Rome GA 30165 > pond_damsel AT comcast.net > http://www.mamomi.net/Odonata > http://ponddamsel.phanfare.com > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: >http://mailweb.ups.edu/pipermail/odonata-l/attachments/20100729/6667092d/attachment-0001.html > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Odonata-l mailing list > Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu > https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l > > > End of Odonata-l Digest, Vol 79, Issue 1 > ****************************************_______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Obelisking
From: George Sims <georgesims AT hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 17:48:24 -0500

I appreciate that "obelisking" is used to cool the body, by pointing the abdomen directly toward the heat source (sun), thus exposing a smaller total body surface to the heat. Could it not also be used to warm the body early in the morning or late in the evening, when the same posture would expose MORE of the abdomen to heat? > From: odonata-l-request AT listhost.ups.edu > Subject: Odonata-l Digest, Vol 79, Issue 1 > To: odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu > Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 12:00:05 -0700 > > Send Odonata-l mailing list submissions to > odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > odonata-l-request AT listhost.ups.edu > > You can reach the person managing the list at > odonata-l-owner AT listhost.ups.edu > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Odonata-l digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Opening a discussion of the "Obelisk" position and > hopefully, a better title for the video showing the reproductive > movement, possible suggestions for development of a long-term > museum habitat (Marion Dobbs) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 19:47:35 -0400 > From: Marion Dobbs > Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Opening a discussion of the "Obelisk" > position and hopefully, a better title for the video showing the > reproductive movement, possible suggestions for development of a > long-term museum habitat > To: Odonata List Server > Message-ID: <72E3860F-6185-4764-9A5E-4F58F5C7C5FD AT mac.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Martha, > > I highly recommend this book: Dragonflies: Behaviour and Ecology of Odonata by Philip S. Corbet > > It is pricey, but your interest level seems high enough to possibly warrant the investment. Reading it would answer many of your questions, I think. > > As for obelisking, any number of references describe this behavior as thermoregulatory in nature. But it is a means of cooling, not warming the body. This is accomplished by minimizing the surface area exposed to the sun and is a good strategy for these insects which are exothermic and thus unable to internally regulate body temperature as are we humans, for instance. > > Marion Dobbs > > Marion Dobbs > 9 Bridlewood Lane > Rome GA 30165 > ecurlew AT mac.com > http://www.mamomi.net > http://mariondobbs.smugmug.com/ > http://ponddamsel.phanfare.com/ > > "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."_Albert Einstein > > > On Jul 29, 2010, at 7:06 PM, Martha Smith wrote: > > > I would like to open up a discussion about the "Obelisk" position and I am resubmitting the link in yesterday's email to my video with, I hope a better title and word usage, since I have been told my unfortunate choice of words probably sent many of your posts to your SPAM box. Everyone, feel free to correct me, and help me with the descriptive anatomical terms. The title now is: "Dragonfly "Obelisk" For Warming? Or, Form of "Presenting" for Reproductive Purposes?" Most importantly, at about .23 it will begin to exercise its reproductive organs. > > > > The Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-zjoNUdKvM > > > > I apologize if I am not up to speed on recent discussions about the "Obelisk" position and other things discussed, I am a designer and I have a very busy 17 year old who is beginning to apply for colleges. I also apologize for talking for such a long time about what I have filmed and not getting it out there for you all to see for comment. I have had numerous difficulties with aged, but fantastic equipment, and most importantly, I had to wait for the technology to catch up with my dreams of sharing it with all of you. > > > > First - Observations: > > > > **It is my understanding that the previous thinking has been the "Obelisk" position is a means for warming up the body of the dragonfly and better exposing the abdomen to the sun, for warmth. I think my previous films of my habitat may provide some clues, but I shall have to go back to provide proof of some of my hypotheses.** Please let me know if this thinking has changed until now. If it hasn't, I think my observations and videos may shed some light on this particular behavior and help us to figure out its significance. > > For the first several years that I observed and filmed this particular habitat, I did not see the Pachydiplax longipennis dragonflies exhibiting this behavior. > > I think the first time I saw this behavior was in a female, and, at the time, I wondered if it was so a male could see her more easily, over the last few years the males use this behavior more and more. > > None of the other species in adjacent habitats or the Libellula vibrans' in this particular habitat had exhibited this behavior until last year > > I will have to go back and look, BUT, there seem to be several factors that have happened concurrently with this behavior: * Competition, which was nonexistent, has increased, *We have experienced extreme drought conditions, after a long term high water level situation, *This year, especially, our summer temperatures are much higher. > > Beginning last year, more and more often, I see both male and female P. l.'s in the "Obelisk" position -- but, most importantly, on July 24th when I was trying to film a segment for "Life In A Day," once there was an available female waiting in the bushes near the oviposition site, neither the male nor female used this behavior, they just stayed in their normal position while resting. > > Interestingly enough,the film that is up on Youtube that shows the "Obelisk" position and the exhibition of reproductive organs was shot on the 25th - the day after. On the 25, the female had disappeared (died, moved to another habitat, or whatever). Over and over the male would go over to the section of bush where she had rested. After repeatedly checking the section of bushes where she had rested each time on the 24th, he resorted to first, going to the central location of the rope to - as I have begun calling it "Present (for what I think may be reproductive attraction)." When that centrally located spot did not produce results, the dragonfly moved to a much higher position, closer to the actual oviposition site, and closer to a more universally visible area, which is also closer to another section of bushes where dragonflies have also rested/or waited for possible mates. > > When all else fails, they move way over to the other side of the 12 foot bushes on the eastern side, which is most open to the rest of the neighborhood and the open, almost dried up stream 150' away, where there is a great deal of competition and possible free mates. > > At the highest branches of our trees (80 ft.), waiting dragonflies have a great vantage point to see where not only possible mates are, but also the best places to bring mates for healthy oviposition. > > They don't mind nasty water, but there needs to be some, and up until this year, I thought the sun was a big factor in choice - the heat of the sun, yes, but not necessarily its light . > > On the 24th, I got some footage of ovipositing in a very dark spot in our habitat. Now I know the temperature was very warm, but I sincerely think, one reason for this choice is because of some of the erosion we have had in our habitat. The shadier sections have a much higher content of clay, my foot sinks deeply into the loam and leaves wonderfully deep depressions that hold the water for quite a long time before sinking into the soil. The higher sunnier sections have more sand and are harder, less porous surfaces. I can hardly jam my heel into the sand, and it no longer leaves much of a place for a very long standing pool of water. > > In addition to all of this is the issue of our town beginning to spray for mosquitoes in the past several years - does this have an effect on the number of females produced in a specific habitat? > > Possible Conclusions: > > The "Obelisk" position is possibly for reproductive attraction in times of competition, either due to the results of more difficult environments, toxins or just fewer females or males at a given time - only once did I see females competing for a male in the past years. > > When it comes to the exercising of the reproductive organs, does the "Obelisk" position tend to dry out those areas and in order for them to work properly and not stick together, do they need to be worked? Because--I often see the dragonflies in this position without their having the need to exercise them, IE. the first segment of the video.--AND--it the first segment was in a less sunny area. > > While I say Global Climate Change - I do wonder if it has to do with the ability of the diminished water level in a given area to keep temperatures down in particular areas. > > I would say clay is an important component in a specific habitat's soil. It seems to keep the water from sinking into the ground too fast for the oviposited eggs. I have film of the male dragonflies seemingly checking out this property before bringing a female back to oviposit in a specific area. > > I think once eggs are washed or placed in a specific area, possibly nymphs, they will "come back," there is definitely species habitat memory or allegiance-need a better term. The soil can dry out at times, but during the reproductive phase, it has to have a very good amount of water, especially during the times of 11 a.m. to 2 p.m. > > Give it three years to establish and I think it could be a great open museum habitat. > > Thanks. > > > > Martha Edwards Smith > > _______________________________________________ > > Odonata-l mailing list > > Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu > > https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l > > Marion M. Dobbs > 9 Bridlewood Lane > Rome GA 30165 > pond_damsel AT comcast.net > http://www.mamomi.net/Odonata > http://ponddamsel.phanfare.com > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://mailweb.ups.edu/pipermail/odonata-l/attachments/20100729/6667092d/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Odonata-l mailing list > Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu > https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l > > > End of Odonata-l Digest, Vol 79, Issue 1 > **************************************** _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: Opening a discussion of the "Obelisk" position and hopefully, a better title for the video showing the reproductive movement, possible suggestions for development of a long-term museum habitat
From: Marion Dobbs <ecurlew AT mac.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 19:47:35 -0400

Martha, I highly recommend this book: Dragonflies: Behaviour and Ecology of Odonata by Philip S. Corbet It is pricey, but your interest level seems high enough to possibly warrant the investment. Reading it would answer many of your questions, I think. As for obelisking, any number of references describe this behavior as thermoregulatory in nature. But it is a means of cooling, not warming the body. This is accomplished by minimizing the surface area exposed to the sun and is a good strategy for these insects which are exothermic and thus unable to internally regulate body temperature as are we humans, for instance. Marion Dobbs Marion Dobbs 9 Bridlewood Lane Rome GA 30165 ecurlew AT mac.com http://www.mamomi.net http://mariondobbs.smugmug.com/ http://ponddamsel.phanfare.com/ "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."_Albert Einstein On Jul 29, 2010, at 7:06 PM, Martha Smith wrote: > I would like to open up a discussion about the "Obelisk" position and I am resubmitting the link in yesterday's email to my video with, I hope a better title and word usage, since I have been told my unfortunate choice of words probably sent many of your posts to your SPAM box. Everyone, feel free to correct me, and help me with the descriptive anatomical terms. The title now is: "Dragonfly "Obelisk" For Warming? Or, Form of "Presenting" for Reproductive Purposes?" Most importantly, at about .23 it will begin to exercise its reproductive organs. > > The Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-zjoNUdKvM > > I apologize if I am not up to speed on recent discussions about the "Obelisk" position and other things discussed, I am a designer and I have a very busy 17 year old who is beginning to apply for colleges. I also apologize for talking for such a long time about what I have filmed and not getting it out there for you all to see for comment. I have had numerous difficulties with aged, but fantastic equipment, and most importantly, I had to wait for the technology to catch up with my dreams of sharing it with all of you. > > First - Observations: > > **It is my understanding that the previous thinking has been the "Obelisk" position is a means for warming up the body of the dragonfly and better exposing the abdomen to the sun, for warmth. I think my previous films of my habitat may provide some clues, but I shall have to go back to provide proof of some of my hypotheses.** Please let me know if this thinking has changed until now. If it hasn't, I think my observations and videos may shed some light on this particular behavior and help us to figure out its significance. > For the first several years that I observed and filmed this particular habitat, I did not see the Pachydiplax longipennis dragonflies exhibiting this behavior. > I think the first time I saw this behavior was in a female, and, at the time, I wondered if it was so a male could see her more easily, over the last few years the males use this behavior more and more. > None of the other species in adjacent habitats or the Libellula vibrans' in this particular habitat had exhibited this behavior until last year > I will have to go back and look, BUT, there seem to be several factors that have happened concurrently with this behavior: * Competition, which was nonexistent, has increased, *We have experienced extreme drought conditions, after a long term high water level situation, *This year, especially, our summer temperatures are much higher. > Beginning last year, more and more often, I see both male and female P. l.'s in the "Obelisk" position -- but, most importantly, on July 24th when I was trying to film a segment for "Life In A Day," once there was an available female waiting in the bushes near the oviposition site, neither the male nor female used this behavior, they just stayed in their normal position while resting. > Interestingly enough,the film that is up on Youtube that shows the "Obelisk" position and the exhibition of reproductive organs was shot on the 25th - the day after. On the 25, the female had disappeared (died, moved to another habitat, or whatever). Over and over the male would go over to the section of bush where she had rested. After repeatedly checking the section of bushes where she had rested each time on the 24th, he resorted to first, going to the central location of the rope to - as I have begun calling it "Present (for what I think may be reproductive attraction)." When that centrally located spot did not produce results, the dragonfly moved to a much higher position, closer to the actual oviposition site, and closer to a more universally visible area, which is also closer to another section of bushes where dragonflies have also rested/or waited for possible mates. > When all else fails, they move way over to the other side of the 12 foot bushes on the eastern side, which is most open to the rest of the neighborhood and the open, almost dried up stream 150' away, where there is a great deal of competition and possible free mates. > At the highest branches of our trees (80 ft.), waiting dragonflies have a great vantage point to see where not only possible mates are, but also the best places to bring mates for healthy oviposition. > They don't mind nasty water, but there needs to be some, and up until this year, I thought the sun was a big factor in choice - the heat of the sun, yes, but not necessarily its light . > On the 24th, I got some footage of ovipositing in a very dark spot in our habitat. Now I know the temperature was very warm, but I sincerely think, one reason for this choice is because of some of the erosion we have had in our habitat. The shadier sections have a much higher content of clay, my foot sinks deeply into the loam and leaves wonderfully deep depressions that hold the water for quite a long time before sinking into the soil. The higher sunnier sections have more sand and are harder, less porous surfaces. I can hardly jam my heel into the sand, and it no longer leaves much of a place for a very long standing pool of water. > In addition to all of this is the issue of our town beginning to spray for mosquitoes in the past several years - does this have an effect on the number of females produced in a specific habitat? > Possible Conclusions: > The "Obelisk" position is possibly for reproductive attraction in times of competition, either due to the results of more difficult environments, toxins or just fewer females or males at a given time - only once did I see females competing for a male in the past years. > When it comes to the exercising of the reproductive organs, does the "Obelisk" position tend to dry out those areas and in order for them to work properly and not stick together, do they need to be worked? Because--I often see the dragonflies in this position without their having the need to exercise them, IE. the first segment of the video.--AND--it the first segment was in a less sunny area. > While I say Global Climate Change - I do wonder if it has to do with the ability of the diminished water level in a given area to keep temperatures down in particular areas. > I would say clay is an important component in a specific habitat's soil. It seems to keep the water from sinking into the ground too fast for the oviposited eggs. I have film of the male dragonflies seemingly checking out this property before bringing a female back to oviposit in a specific area. > I think once eggs are washed or placed in a specific area, possibly nymphs, they will "come back," there is definitely species habitat memory or allegiance-need a better term. The soil can dry out at times, but during the reproductive phase, it has to have a very good amount of water, especially during the times of 11 a.m. to 2 p.m. > Give it three years to establish and I think it could be a great open museum habitat. > Thanks. > > Martha Edwards Smith > _______________________________________________ > Odonata-l mailing list > Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu > https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l Marion M. Dobbs 9 Bridlewood Lane Rome GA 30165 pond_damsel AT comcast.net http://www.mamomi.net/Odonata http://ponddamsel.phanfare.com _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: Opening a discussion of the "Obelisk" position andhopefully, a better title for the video showing the reproductive movement, possible suggestions for development of a long-term museum habitat
From: "mike.averill" <mike.averill AT blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 22:11:27 +0100

Perhaps sadly, we do not get high temperatures very often in the UK and the whole obelisking position is rarely seen, however I have seen Sympetrums adopting this position when air temperatures (measured in the shade) reach 25 degrees Centigrade-77 Fahrenheit. The ones I have most often seen doing this are Sympetrum sanguineum and Sympetrum fonscolombii but there is always the thought in the back of my mind as to whether these two species which are known to migrate from the Continent, particularly the latter, may be bringing their hot climate habits with them. Mike Averill England ----- Original Message ----- From: Sulka Haro To: Odonata List Server Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 7:37 PM Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Opening a discussion of the "Obelisk" position andhopefully,a better title for the video showing the reproductive movement,possible suggestions for development of a long-term museum habitat In my knowledge and experience thermo-regulation (specifically cooling) is the explanation for the post in most cases - except not always. When observing the same species in different environments, the obelisk position practically always occurs in areas of high temperature. For example, observing Orthetrum coerulescens in Sardinia versus Finland, the species can be very frequently observed in obelisk position in Sardinia where the typical temperature is very high. In Finland, where the ambient temperature is easily 10 degrees lower, I can't remember seeing the species ever posing in obelisk position as the temperatures just haven't been high enough - even when the pose would have suited catching more sun for warming up at the end of the season / in the evenings. Having said that, there are huge differences between species in their behavior, so I'm 100% certain certain species are much more likely to use the pose than others. Also, there are species which use a pose similar to obelisk as part of their normal behavior, like Calopteryx haemorrhoidalis, which has a red "tail-lamp" which the males show off regularly by lifting their body up. See a photo here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/sulka/4773637017/ Hence it's entirely possible for a certain species to use the pose as part of their mating rituals but I'd say the pose is generally used for thermo-regulation. I have no knowledge of the behavior of Blue dashers so I can't comment on that species. It'd be interested to know if that particular species behavior has been subjected to a study. ;) And yes, I can also vouch for Corbet's book. The book got a new print in 2008 so the price went down to $58 from $150. This is pretty much The Book in regards to dragonflies, so if you're interested in the actual biology of dragons, it's a must read. http://www.amazon.com/Dragonflies-Collins-Naturalist-Philip-Corbet/dp/0007151683/ sulka On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 5:44 PM, Glenn Corbiere wrote: I do think that thermo-regulation is the reason for this behavior. I know I have often seen the behavior on sunny hot days. I suspect that it is at times used for warming too. If a dragonfly would use it to minimize exposure to the suns rays, why wouldn't it use it at times to maximize it? As for display purposes - I suspect this is not the case. It is not that I do not believe that all dragonflies completely ignore still objects. I have very good reason to believe that there is some sort of a reasoning or evaluation process at work at times. If that is the case, then display might not be out of the question. If you pay close attention to dragonflies, you know some species study you at times. You know it with the dragonflies whose vision is more directional - the Gomphidae. They are always tilting their heads to get a better view. I have seen it countless times where, if I get too close, they tilt their head towards you. They watch you. They study you. They do not tilt their head back until they have decided, in their dragonfly way of doing so, that you are not a threat. The coloring, the patterns in various species all let you know that visual clues are important. But..... I have never obeserved a dragonfly obelisking on an overcast day. Glenn Glenn Corbiere 100 Prospect St. Chester, MA. 01011-9657 www.dragonhunter.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Marion Dobbs To: Odonata List Server Sent: Fri, July 30, 2010 7:56:04 AM Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Opening a discussion of the "Obelisk" position and hopefully, a better title for the video showing the reproductive movement, possible suggestions for development of a long-term museum habitat Martha, I highly recommend this book: Dragonflies: Behaviour and Ecology of Odonata by Philip S. Corbet It is pricey, but your interest level seems high enough to possibly warrant the investment. Reading it would answer many of your questions, I think. As for obelisking, any number of references describe this behavior as thermoregulatory in nature. But it is a means of cooling, not warming the body. This is accomplished by minimizing the surface area exposed to the sun and is a good strategy for these insects which are exothermic and thus unable to internally regulate body temperature as are we humans, for instance. Marion Dobbs Marion Dobbs 9 Bridlewood Lane Rome GA 30165 ecurlew AT mac.com http://www.mamomi.net/ http://mariondobbs.smugmug.com/ http://ponddamsel.phanfare.com/ "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."_Albert Einstein On Jul 29, 2010, at 7:06 PM, Martha Smith wrote: I would like to open up a discussion about the "Obelisk" position and I am resubmitting the link in yesterday's email to my video with, I hope a better title and word usage, since I have been told my unfortunate choice of words probably sent many of your posts to your SPAM box. Everyone, feel free to correct me, and help me with the descriptive anatomical terms. The title now is: "Dragonfly "Obelisk" For Warming? Or, Form of "Presenting" for Reproductive Purposes?" Most importantly, at about .23 it will begin to exercise its reproductive organs. The Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-zjoNUdKvM I apologize if I am not up to speed on recent discussions about the "Obelisk" position and other things discussed, I am a designer and I have a very busy 17 year old who is beginning to apply for colleges. I also apologize for talking for such a long time about what I have filmed and not getting it out there for you all to see for comment. I have had numerous difficulties with aged, but fantastic equipment, and most importantly, I had to wait for the technology to catch up with my dreams of sharing it with all of you. First - Observations: 1.. **It is my understanding that the previous thinking has been the "Obelisk" position is a means for warming up the body of the dragonfly and better exposing the abdomen to the sun, for warmth. I think my previous films of my habitat may provide some clues, but I shall have to go back to provide proof of some of my hypotheses.** Please let me know if this thinking has changed until now. If it hasn't, I think my observations and videos may shed some light on this particular behavior and help us to figure out its significance. Marion Dobbs Rome (Floyd Co.) GA spreadwing AT mac.com pond_damsel AT comcast.net http://www.mamomi.net http://ponddamsel.phanfare.com http://mariondobbs.smugmug.com/ "In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's mind there are few." _Shunryu Suzuki _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l -- http://www.flickr.com/photos/sulka/ http://www.sulka.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l_______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: Opening a discussion of the "Obelisk" position and hopefully, a better title for the video showing the reproductive movement, possible suggestions for development of a long-term museum habitat
From: Richard Rowe <richard.rowe AT jcu.edu.au>
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 11:51:10 +1000

Sulka Haro wrote: > > In my knowledge and experience thermo-regulation (specifically > cooling) is the explanation for the post in most cases - except not > always. > > When observing the same species in different environments, the obelisk > position practically always occurs in areas of high temperature. For > example, observing Orthetrum coerulescens in Sardinia versus Finland, > the species can be very frequently observed in obelisk position in > Sardinia where the typical temperature is very high. In Finland, where > the ambient temperature is easily 10 degrees lower, I can't remember > seeing the species ever posing in obelisk position as the temperatures > just haven't been high enough - even when the pose would have suited > catching more sun for warming up at the end of the season / in the > evenings. > > Having said that, there are huge differences between species in their > behavior, so I'm 100% certain certain species are much more likely to > use the pose than others. Also, there are species which use a pose > similar to obelisk as part of their normal behavior, like Calopteryx > haemorrhoidalis, which has a red "tail-lamp" which the males show off > regularly by lifting their body up. See a photo here: > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/sulka/4773637017/ > > Hence it's entirely possible for a certain species to use the pose as > part of their mating rituals but I'd say the pose is generally used > for thermo-regulation. I have no knowledge of the behavior of Blue > dashers so I can't comment on that species. It'd be interested to know > if that particular species behavior has been subjected to a study. ;) > > And yes, I can also vouch for Corbet's book. The book got a new print > in 2008 so the price went down to $58 from $150. This is pretty much > The Book in regards to dragonflies, so if you're interested in the > actual biology of dragons, it's a must read. > > http://www.amazon.com/Dragonflies-Collins-Naturalist-Philip-Corbet/dp/0007151683/ > This is an error - the 2008 book is Corbet & Brooks, and is the replacement for Corbet, Longfield & Moore 1960 (+ reissue). Corbet & Brooks is certainly a worthwhile book in its own right. Corbet 1999 has been reprinted at least 3 times - so much for the publisher's original timidity! There is also a Japanese language edition prepared in consultation with Philip ... A scan of Corbet 1962 (courtesy of Philip Corbet) is available on the web at http://www.jcu.edu.au/school/tbiol/zoology/auxillry/odonata/corbet.htm Also with links through http://medusa.jcu.edu.au/Dragonflies/home.php (via 'references') Richard -- Dr Richard Rowe Zoology & Tropical Ecology School of Marine & Tropical Biology James Cook University Townsville 4811 AUSTRALIA ph +61 7 47 81 4851 fax +61 7 47 25 1570 JCU has CRICOS Provider Code 00117J _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: Opening a discussion of the "Obelisk" position and hopefully, a better title for the video showing the reproductive movement, possible suggestions for development of a long-term museum habitat
From: Sulka Haro <sulka AT sulka.net>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 21:37:57 +0300

In my knowledge and experience thermo-regulation (specifically cooling) is the explanation for the post in most cases - except not always. When observing the same species in different environments, the obelisk position practically always occurs in areas of high temperature. For example, observing Orthetrum coerulescens in Sardinia versus Finland, the species can be very frequently observed in obelisk position in Sardinia where the typical temperature is very high. In Finland, where the ambient temperature is easily 10 degrees lower, I can't remember seeing the species ever posing in obelisk position as the temperatures just haven't been high enough - even when the pose would have suited catching more sun for warming up at the end of the season / in the evenings. Having said that, there are huge differences between species in their behavior, so I'm 100% certain certain species are much more likely to use the pose than others. Also, there are species which use a pose similar to obelisk as part of their normal behavior, like Calopteryx haemorrhoidalis, which has a red "tail-lamp" which the males show off regularly by lifting their body up. See a photo here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/sulka/4773637017/ Hence it's entirely possible for a certain species to use the pose as part of their mating rituals but I'd say the pose is generally used for thermo-regulation. I have no knowledge of the behavior of Blue dashers so I can't comment on that species. It'd be interested to know if that particular species behavior has been subjected to a study. ;) And yes, I can also vouch for Corbet's book. The book got a new print in 2008 so the price went down to $58 from $150. This is pretty much The Book in regards to dragonflies, so if you're interested in the actual biology of dragons, it's a must read. http://www.amazon.com/Dragonflies-Collins-Naturalist-Philip-Corbet/dp/0007151683/ sulka On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 5:44 PM, Glenn Corbiere wrote: > I do think that thermo-regulation is the reason for this behavior. I know > I have often seen the behavior on sunny hot days. I suspect that it is at > times used for warming too. If a dragonfly would use it to minimize > exposure to the suns rays, why wouldn't it use it at times to maximize it? > > As for display purposes - I suspect this is not the case. It is not that > I do not believe that all dragonflies completely ignore still objects. > I have very good reason to believe that there is some sort of a reasoning or > evaluation process at work at times. If that is the case, then display > might not be out of the question. If you pay close attention to > dragonflies, you know some species study you at times. You know it with the > dragonflies whose vision is more directional - the Gomphidae. They are > always tilting their heads to get a better view. I have seen it countless > times where, if I get too close, they tilt their head towards you. They > watch you. They study you. They do not tilt their head back until they have > decided, in their dragonfly way of doing so, that you are not a threat. The > coloring, the patterns in various species all let you know that visual clues > are important. > > But..... > > I have never obeserved a dragonfly obelisking on an overcast day. > > > Glenn > > > > Glenn Corbiere > 100 Prospect St. > Chester, MA. 01011-9657 > > www.dragonhunter.net > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Marion Dobbs > *To:* Odonata List Server > *Sent:* Fri, July 30, 2010 7:56:04 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [Odonata-l] Opening a discussion of the "Obelisk" position > and hopefully, a better title for the video showing the reproductive > movement, possible suggestions for development of a long-term museum habitat > > Martha, > > I highly recommend this book: Dragonflies: Behaviour and Ecology of > Odonata > by Philip S. Corbet > > > It is pricey, but your interest level seems high enough to possibly warrant > the investment. Reading it would answer many of your questions, I think. > > As for obelisking, any number of references describe this behavior as > thermoregulatory in nature. But it is a means of *cooling*, not warming > the body. This is accomplished by minimizing the surface area exposed to the > sun and is a good strategy for these insects which are exothermic and thus > unable to internally regulate body temperature as are we humans, for > instance. > > Marion Dobbs > > Marion Dobbs > 9 Bridlewood Lane > Rome GA 30165 > ecurlew AT mac.com > http://www.mamomi.net/ > http://mariondobbs.smugmug.com/ > http://ponddamsel.phanfare.com/ > > "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."_Albert > Einstein > > > On Jul 29, 2010, at 7:06 PM, Martha Smith wrote: > > I would like to open up a discussion about the "Obelisk" position and I am > resubmitting the link in yesterday's email to my video with, I hope a better > title and word usage, since I have been told my unfortunate choice of words > probably sent many of your posts to your SPAM box. Everyone, feel free to > correct me, and help me with the descriptive anatomical terms. The title > now is: "Dragonfly "Obelisk" For Warming? Or, Form of "Presenting" for > Reproductive Purposes?" Most importantly, at about .23 it will begin to > exercise its reproductive organs. > > The Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-zjoNUdKvM > > I apologize if I am not up to speed on recent discussions about the > "Obelisk" position and other things discussed, I am a designer and I have a > very busy 17 year old who is beginning to apply for colleges. I also > apologize for talking for such a long time about what I have filmed and not > getting it out there for you all to see for comment. I have had numerous > difficulties with aged, but fantastic equipment, and most importantly, I had > to wait for the technology to catch up with my dreams of sharing it with all > of you. > > First - Observations: > > > 1. **It is my understanding that the previous thinking has been the > "Obelisk" position is a means for *warming* up the body of the > dragonfly and better exposing the abdomen to the sun, for warmth. I think > my previous films of my habitat may provide some clues, but I shall have to > go back to provide proof of some of my hypotheses.** Please let me know if > this thinking has changed until now. If it hasn't, I think my observations > and videos may shed some light on this particular behavior and help us to > figure out its significance. > > Marion Dobbs > Rome (Floyd Co.) GA > spreadwing AT mac.com > pond_damsel AT comcast.net > http://www.mamomi.net > http://ponddamsel.phanfare.com > http://mariondobbs.smugmug.com/ > > "In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's > mind there are few." _Shunryu Suzuki > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Odonata-l mailing list > Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu > https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l > > -- http://www.flickr.com/photos/sulka/ http://www.sulka.net/_______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: Opening a discussion of the "Obelisk" position and hopefully, a better title for the video showing the reproductive movement, possible suggestions for development of a long-term museum habitat
From: Glenn Corbiere <gcorbiere AT dragonhunter.net>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 07:44:38 -0700 (PDT)

I do think that thermo-regulation is the reason for this behavior.��I know I have�often seen the behavior on sunny hot days.��I suspect that it is at times used for warming too.� If a dragonfly would use�it to minimize exposure to the suns rays, why wouldn't it use it at times to maximize it? As for display purposes - I�suspect�this is not the case.�� It is not that I do not believe that�all dragonflies completely ignore�still objects. I�have very good reason�to believe that there is some sort of a reasoning�or evaluation process at work at times.��If that is the case, then display might not be out of the question.� If you pay close attention to dragonflies, you know�some species study you at times.� You know it with the dragonflies�whose vision is more directional - the�Gomphidae.�They�are always tilting their heads to get a better�view. I have seen it countless times where, if I get too close, they�tilt their head towards you.� They watch you. They study you. They do not tilt their head back until they have decided, in their dragonfly way of doing so, that you are not a threat.��The coloring, the�patterns in various species all let you know that visual clues are important. But..... I have never�obeserved a dragonfly obelisking on an overcast day. Glenn � Glenn Corbiere 100 Prospect St. Chester, MA. 01011-9657 www.dragonhunter.net ________________________________ From: Marion Dobbs To: Odonata List Server Sent: Fri, July 30, 2010 7:56:04 AM Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Opening a discussion of the "Obelisk" position and hopefully, a better title for the video showing the reproductive movement, possible suggestions for development of a long-term museum habitat Martha, I highly recommend this book:�Dragonflies: Behaviour and Ecology of Odonata�by�Philip S. Corbet� It is pricey, but your interest level seems high enough to possibly warrant the investment. Reading it would answer many of your questions, I think. As for obelisking, any number of references describe this behavior as thermoregulatory in nature. But it is a means of�cooling, not warming the body. This is accomplished by minimizing the surface area exposed to the sun and is a good strategy for these insects which are exothermic and thus unable to internally regulate body temperature as are we humans, for instance. Marion Dobbs Marion Dobbs 9 Bridlewood Lane Rome GA� 30165ecurlew AT�mac.com http://www.mamomi.net/ http://mariondobbs.smugmug.com/ http://ponddamsel.phanfare.com/ "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."_Albert Einstein On Jul 29, 2010, at 7:06 PM, Martha Smith wrote: I would like to open up a discussion about the "Obelisk" position and I am resubmitting the link in yesterday's email to my video with, I hope a better title and word usage, since I have been told my unfortunate choice of words probably sent many of your posts to your SPAM box.� Everyone, feel free to correct me, and help me with the descriptive anatomical terms.� The title now is:� "Dragonfly "Obelisk" For Warming? Or, Form of "Presenting" for Reproductive Purposes?" Most importantly, at about .23 it will begin to exercise its reproductive organs. > >The Link:� http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-zjoNUdKvM > >I apologize if I am not up to speed on recent discussions about the "Obelisk" >position and other things discussed, I am a designer and I have a very busy 17 >year old who is beginning to apply for colleges.� I also apologize for talking >for such a long time about what I have filmed and not getting it out there for >you all to see for comment.� I have had numerous difficulties with aged, but >fantastic equipment, and most importantly, I had to wait for the technology to >catch up with my dreams of sharing it with all of you. > >First - Observations: > > > 1. **It is my understanding that the previous thinking has been the "Obelisk" >position is a means for warming up the body of the dragonfly and better exposing >the abdomen to the sun, for warmth.� I think my previous films of my habitat may >provide some clues, but I shall have to go back to provide proof of some of my >hypotheses.**� Please let me know if this thinking has changed until now.� If it >hasn't, I think my observations and videos may shed some light on this >particular behavior and help us to figure out its significance. Marion Dobbs Rome (Floyd Co.) GA spreadwing AT mac.com pond_damsel AT comcast.net http://www.mamomi.net http://ponddamsel.phanfare.com http://mariondobbs.smugmug.com/ "In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's mind there are few." _Shunryu Suzuki_______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: Opening a discussion of the "Obelisk" position and hopefully, a better title for the video showing the reproductive movement, possible suggestions for development of a long-term museum habitat
From: Marion Dobbs <spreadwing AT mac.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 07:56:04 -0400

Martha, I highly recommend this book: Dragonflies: Behaviour and Ecology of Odonata by Philip S. Corbet It is pricey, but your interest level seems high enough to possibly warrant the investment. Reading it would answer many of your questions, I think. As for obelisking, any number of references describe this behavior as thermoregulatory in nature. But it is a means of cooling, not warming the body. This is accomplished by minimizing the surface area exposed to the sun and is a good strategy for these insects which are exothermic and thus unable to internally regulate body temperature as are we humans, for instance. Marion Dobbs Marion Dobbs 9 Bridlewood Lane Rome GA 30165 ecurlew AT mac.com http://www.mamomi.net http://mariondobbs.smugmug.com/ http://ponddamsel.phanfare.com/ "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."_Albert Einstein On Jul 29, 2010, at 7:06 PM, Martha Smith wrote: > I would like to open up a discussion about the "Obelisk" position and I am resubmitting the link in yesterday's email to my video with, I hope a better title and word usage, since I have been told my unfortunate choice of words probably sent many of your posts to your SPAM box. Everyone, feel free to correct me, and help me with the descriptive anatomical terms. The title now is: "Dragonfly "Obelisk" For Warming? Or, Form of "Presenting" for Reproductive Purposes?" Most importantly, at about .23 it will begin to exercise its reproductive organs. > > The Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-zjoNUdKvM > > I apologize if I am not up to speed on recent discussions about the "Obelisk" position and other things discussed, I am a designer and I have a very busy 17 year old who is beginning to apply for colleges. I also apologize for talking for such a long time about what I have filmed and not getting it out there for you all to see for comment. I have had numerous difficulties with aged, but fantastic equipment, and most importantly, I had to wait for the technology to catch up with my dreams of sharing it with all of you. > > First - Observations: > > **It is my understanding that the previous thinking has been the "Obelisk" position is a means for warming up the body of the dragonfly and better exposing the abdomen to the sun, for warmth. I think my previous films of my habitat may provide some clues, but I shall have to go back to provide proof of some of my hypotheses.** Please let me know if this thinking has changed until now. If it hasn't, I think my observations and videos may shed some light on this particular behavior and help us to figure out its significance. Marion Dobbs Rome (Floyd Co.) GA spreadwing AT mac.com pond_damsel AT comcast.net http://www.mamomi.net http://ponddamsel.phanfare.com http://mariondobbs.smugmug.com/ "In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's mind there are few." _Shunryu Suzuki _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Opening a discussion of the "Obelisk" position and hopefully, a better title for the video showing the reproductive movement, possible suggestions for development of a long-term museum habitat
From: Tommy Walker <birdman3607 AT yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 20:54:31 -0700 (PDT)

Martha/All, � �� In my short time observing and photgraphing�odonates, it seems easier that a dragonfly could indeed escape the heat by resorting to shade. I do see them in the shade but more often in the sun. And on a hot day they are usually obelisking. A very interesting behavior that has been explained as I understand it as a means for the ode in question to lower body temps. and still perform effectively as a hunter. I think that has been established here now. �� So, that being said, Martha I truly enjoyed your video link. One thing that I noticed is that your ode was both obelisking and hunting. It appears from your video that the dragonfly was actually perched on a branch right in a swarm of gnats or such insect. This observation becomes more obvious towards the end of the video.�That the ode was actually swarmed and was moving around the swarm as to hold the obelisking position�until the right opportunity presented itself for a catch, or maybe already fed and satisfied? Perhaps from your video the two behaviors gave an impression that the dragonfly was showing a display of�some sort? �� Great video and even better observation! Thank you for the video. This thread truly is interesting!!! My two cents. � Tommy Walker Jr. The only thing you must do in life is to constantly make decisions.... Tommy Walker, Jr. 504-201-4661 Kenner, La. �� --- On Thu, 7/29/10, Martha Smith wrote: From: Martha Smith Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] Opening a discussion of the "Obelisk" position and hopefully, a better title for the video showing the reproductive movement, possible suggestions for development of a long-term museum habitat To: rbehrstock AT cox.net, "Odonata List Server" Date: Thursday, July 29, 2010, 8:14 PM Thank you so much, Robert!� After I sent that, I started thinking, that although I just read that on the Internet, it could be the opposite.� Sorry for the mix-up! BUT, I still do wonder if it could also be true that the stance is for attraction purposes in times of competition and scarcity of mates, especially, due to the fact that although the temperatures were about the same each day (nearing 100), the male dragonfly did not resort to the "Obelisk" position until he made repeated efforts to find the female in the bush she had been the previous day.� It did not use this pose the previous day when there were only he and the one female occupying the space.� Also, the previous day when the female had a male at "the ready," even in the heat of the day, she did not resort to this pose, either. Also, as I have often seen, there are numerous branches in more shade to which they can and do escape the sun's rays to cool themselves and rest.� Most of the times I have seen the "Obelisk" position behavior have been in the heat of the day, either prominently on a singular perch or near the end of a prominent branch, but this is also the prime time for reproductive behavior and the attraction of prime mates.� They are not seeking shade at these times. So---What does everyone think?� Could there be merit in my question? Thanks. Martha Edwards Smith On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 7:14 PM, wrote: **It is my understanding that the previous thinking has been the "Obelisk" position is a means for warming up the body of the dragonfly and better exposing the abdomen to the sun, for warmth. �I think my previous films of my habitat may provide some clues, but I shall have to go back to provide proof of some of my hypotheses.** �Please let me know if this thinking has changed until now. �If it hasn't, I think my observations and videos may shed some light on this particular behavior and help us to figure out its significance. Hi Martha, I think it;s most people's understanding that the obelisk position is the opposite of what you wrote; that is, it's a way of avoiding the sun's rays. That's why all the dragons are obelisking when it's blazing hot outside. This behavior is clarified in everything that's been published on dragonflies. Best, RAB -- Robert A. Behrstock 10359 S. Thicket Pl. Hereford, AZ 85615 Phone/FAX: �(520) 378-3262 N31� 22' 49.75" �W110� 13' 41.08", �5,012' elev. Naturewide Images http://www.naturewideimages.com/ Birdlife of Houston, Galveston, and the Upper Texas Coast http://www.tamu.edu/upress/BOOKS/2006/eubanks.htm Finding Birds on the Great Texas Coastal Birding Trail http://www.tamu.edu/upress/BOOKS/2008/eubanks.htm Dragonflies & Damselflies of the Southwest http://www.rionuevo.com/book.php?book_isbn=9781933855141 -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l_______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: Opening a discussion of the "Obelisk" position and hopefully, a better title for the video showing the reproductive movement, possible suggestions for development of a long-term museum habitat
From: Martha Smith <scldrgnfly AT gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 21:14:37 -0400

Thank you so much, Robert! After I sent that, I started thinking, that although I just read that on the Internet, it could be the opposite. Sorry for the mix-up! BUT, I still do wonder if it could also be true that the stance is for attraction purposes in times of competition and scarcity of mates, especially, due to the fact that although the temperatures were about the same each day (nearing 100), the male dragonfly did not resort to the "Obelisk" position until he made repeated efforts to find the female in the bush she had been the previous day. It did not use this pose the previous day when there were only he and the one female occupying the space. Also, the previous day when the female had a male at "the ready," even in the heat of the day, she did not resort to this pose, either. Also, as I have often seen, there are numerous branches in more shade to which they can and do escape the sun's rays to cool themselves and rest. Most of the times I have seen the "Obelisk" position behavior have been in the heat of the day, either prominently on a singular perch or near the end of a prominent branch, but this is also the prime time for reproductive behavior and the attraction of prime mates. They are not seeking shade at these times. So---What does everyone think? Could there be merit in my question? Thanks. Martha Edwards Smith On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 7:14 PM, wrote: > **It is my understanding that the previous thinking has been the "Obelisk" > position is a means for warming up the body of the dragonfly and better > exposing the abdomen to the sun, for warmth. I think my previous films of > my habitat may provide some clues, but I shall have to go back to provide > proof of some of my hypotheses.** Please let me know if this thinking has > changed until now. If it hasn't, I think my observations and videos may > shed some light on this particular behavior and help us to figure out its > significance. > > Hi Martha, > > I think it;s most people's understanding that the obelisk position is the > opposite of what you wrote; that is, it's a way of avoiding the sun's rays. > That's why all the dragons are obelisking when it's blazing hot outside. > This behavior is clarified in everything that's been published on > dragonflies. > > Best, > RAB > > -- > Robert A. Behrstock > 10359 S. Thicket Pl. > Hereford, AZ 85615 > Phone/FAX: (520) 378-3262 > N31� 22' 49.75" W110� 13' 41.08", 5,012' elev. > Naturewide Images > http://www.naturewideimages.com/ > Birdlife of Houston, Galveston, and the Upper Texas Coast > http://www.tamu.edu/upress/BOOKS/2006/eubanks.htm > Finding Birds on the Great Texas Coastal Birding Trail > http://www.tamu.edu/upress/BOOKS/2008/eubanks.htm > Dragonflies & Damselflies of the Southwest > http://www.rionuevo.com/book.php?book_isbn=9781933855141 > >_______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Small World
From: "Dave McShaffrey" <mcshaffd AT marietta.edu>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 21:06:52 -0400

Anyone in Wisconsin with a silver Honda Element and the license plate ODON8? A former student just posted a picture of your license plate on facebook. She said her sister's garden up there in "infested with Cordulegasters of some sort". Must be a hot spot! Dave Dave McShaffrey Department of Biology and Environmental Science Marietta College Marietta, OH 45750 mcshaffd AT marietta.edu www.marietta.edu/~mcshaffd 740-376-4743 _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Opening a discussion of the "Obelisk" position and hopefully, a better title for the video showing the reproductive movement, possible suggestions for development of a long-term museum habitat
From: Martha Smith <scldrgnfly AT gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 19:06:30 -0400

I would like to open up a discussion about the "Obelisk" position and I am resubmitting the link in yesterday's email to my video with, I hope a better title and word usage, since I have been told my unfortunate choice of words probably sent many of your posts to your SPAM box. Everyone, feel free to correct me, and help me with the descriptive anatomical terms. The title now is: "Dragonfly "Obelisk" For Warming? Or, Form of "Presenting" for Reproductive Purposes?" Most importantly, at about .23 it will begin to exercise its reproductive organs. The Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-zjoNUdKvM I apologize if I am not up to speed on recent discussions about the "Obelisk" position and other things discussed, I am a designer and I have a very busy 17 year old who is beginning to apply for colleges. I also apologize for talking for such a long time about what I have filmed and not getting it out there for you all to see for comment. I have had numerous difficulties with aged, but fantastic equipment, and most importantly, I had to wait for the technology to catch up with my dreams of sharing it with all of you. First - Observations: 1. **It is my understanding that the previous thinking has been the "Obelisk" position is a means for *warming* up the body of the dragonfly and better exposing the abdomen to the sun, for warmth. I think my previous films of my habitat may provide some clues, but I shall have to go back to provide proof of some of my hypotheses.** Please let me know if this thinking has changed until now. If it hasn't, I think my observations and videos may shed some light on this particular behavior and help us to figure out its significance. 2. For the first several years that I observed and filmed this particular habitat, I did not see the Pachydiplax longipennis dragonflies exhibiting this behavior. 3. I think the first time I saw this behavior was in a female, and, at the time, I wondered if it was so a male could see her more easily, over the last few years the males use this behavior more and more. 4. None of the other species in adjacent habitats or the Libellula vibrans' in this particular habitat had exhibited this behavior until last year 5. I will have to go back and look, BUT, there seem to be several factors that have happened concurrently with this behavior: * Competition, which was nonexistent, has increased, *We have experienced extreme drought conditions, after a long term high water level situation, *This year, especially, our summer temperatures are much higher. 6. Beginning last year, more and more often, I see both male and female P. l.'s in the "Obelisk" position -- but, most importantly, on July 24th when I was trying to film a segment for "Life In A Day," once there was an available female waiting in the bushes near the oviposition site, neither the male nor female used this behavior, they just stayed in their normal position while resting. 7. Interestingly enough,the film that is up on Youtube that shows the "Obelisk" position and the exhibition of reproductive organs was shot on the 25th - the day after. On the 25, the female had disappeared (died, moved to another habitat, or whatever). Over and over the male would go over to the section of bush where she had rested. After repeatedly checking the section of bushes where she had rested each time on the 24th, he resorted to first, going to the central location of the rope to - as I have begun calling it "Present (for what I think may be reproductive attraction)." When that centrally located spot did not produce results, the dragonfly moved to a much higher position, closer to the actual oviposition site, and closer to a more universally visible area, which is also closer to another section of bushes where dragonflies have also rested/or waited for possible mates. 8. When all else fails, they move way over to the other side of the 12 foot bushes on the eastern side, which is most open to the rest of the neighborhood and the open, almost dried up stream 150' away, where there is a great deal of competition and possible free mates. 9. At the highest branches of our trees (80 ft.), waiting dragonflies have a great vantage point to see where not only possible mates are, but also the best places to bring mates for healthy oviposition. 10. They don't mind nasty water, but there needs to be some, and up until this year, I thought the sun was a big factor in choice - the heat of the sun, yes, but not necessarily its light . 11. On the 24th, I got some footage of ovipositing in a very dark spot in our habitat. Now I know the temperature was very warm, but I sincerely think, one reason for this choice is because of some of the erosion we have had in our habitat. The shadier sections have a much higher content of clay, my foot sinks deeply into the loam and leaves wonderfully deep depressions that hold the water for quite a long time before sinking into the soil. The higher sunnier sections have more sand and are harder, less porous surfaces. I can hardly jam my heel into the sand, and it no longer leaves much of a place for a very long standing pool of water. 12. In addition to all of this is the issue of our town beginning to spray for mosquitoes in the past several years - does this have an effect on the number of females produced in a specific habitat? Possible Conclusions: 1. The "Obelisk" position is possibly for reproductive attraction in times of competition, either due to the results of more difficult environments, toxins or just fewer females or males at a given time - only once did I see females competing for a male in the past years. 2. When it comes to the exercising of the reproductive organs, does the "Obelisk" position tend to dry out those areas and in order for them to work properly and not stick together, do they need to be worked? Because--I often see the dragonflies in this position without their having the need to exercise them, IE. the first segment of the video.--AND--it the first segment was in a less sunny area. 3. While I say Global Climate Change - I do wonder if it has to do with the ability of the diminished water level in a given area to keep temperatures down in particular areas. 4. I would say clay is an important component in a specific habitat's soil. It seems to keep the water from sinking into the ground too fast for the oviposited eggs. I have film of the male dragonflies seemingly checking out this property before bringing a female back to oviposit in a specific area. 5. I think once eggs are washed or placed in a specific area, possibly nymphs, they will "come back," there is definitely species habitat memory or allegiance-need a better term. The soil can dry out at times, but during the reproductive phase, it has to have a very good amount of water, especially during the times of 11 a.m. to 2 p.m. 6. Give it three years to establish and I think it could be a great open museum habitat. Thanks. Martha Edwards Smith_______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Territorial Behavior
From: Maskedbird AT aol.com
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 09:24:06 EDT

Concerning the ongoing, but probably concluded discussion on dragonflies in captivity...My first thought would be the territoriality of some species (particularly the pond breeding species who stake out a bit of shoreline). If one were to attempt to try a large enclosed exhibit anyway, how do you think such species who defend an area would react? Would they give up the behavior, reduce territory size or just become perpetual motion bodies and exhaust themselves defending? Caryl Buck_______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: odonata exhibit
From: Richard Rowe <richard.rowe AT jcu.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 13:52:40 +1000

_______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: odonata exhibit
From: "John Payne" <jcpayne AT uw.edu>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 20:04:56 -0700

I would add that in my experience (studying dragonflies in eastern Washington lakes), it is important to exclude fish from the ponds; or at least, you will have a much less diverse fauna if you allow them. John Payne -----Original Message----- From: odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu [mailto:odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu] On Behalf Of Richard Rowe Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 5:56 PM To: Thomas W Donnelly Cc: odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu; dnoble AT sbzoo.org; Kathy &/or Dave Biggs; Rebecca Kittel Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] odonata exhibit Thomas W Donnelly wrote: > I once devised a small exhibit containing a few dozen gomphid larvae > just ready to emerge. They did so in rather spectacular fashion and > the exhibit managed to dominate the hallway in which it was located > for more than a week. This required very little hardware (a small > aquarium and suitable screening) but did require someone to collect > the larvae and to deal with the emergents. It was, of course, very > much date dependent and couldn't be followed by similar exhibits > throughout the year. Odonate emergence is a very interesting thing to > watch. It was great fun for all. And adding the quotation from Gilgamesh: "It is only the nymph of the dragonfly who sheds her larva and sees the sun in her glory." Which is a suspect translation - but serves our purpose ... -- Dr Richard Rowe Zoology & Tropical Ecology School of Marine & Tropical Biology James Cook University Townsville 4811 AUSTRALIA ph +61 7 47 81 4851 fax +61 7 47 25 1570 JCU has CRICOS Provider Code 00117J _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: odonata exhibit
From: Richard Rowe <richard.rowe AT jcu.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 10:56:22 +1000

Thomas W Donnelly wrote: > I once devised a small exhibit containing a few dozen gomphid larvae > just ready to emerge. They did so in rather spectacular fashion and > the exhibit managed to dominate the hallway in which it was located > for more than a week. This required very little hardware (a small > aquarium and suitable screening) but did require someone to collect > the larvae and to deal with the emergents. It was, of course, very > much date dependent and couldn't be followed by similar exhibits > throughout the year. Odonate emergence is a very interesting thing to > watch. It was great fun for all. And adding the quotation from Gilgamesh: "It is only the nymph of the dragonfly who sheds her larva and sees the sun in her glory." Which is a suspect translation - but serves our purpose ... -- Dr Richard Rowe Zoology & Tropical Ecology School of Marine & Tropical Biology James Cook University Townsville 4811 AUSTRALIA ph +61 7 47 81 4851 fax +61 7 47 25 1570 JCU has CRICOS Provider Code 00117J _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: odonata exhibit
From: "Paul M. Brunelle" <pmb2 AT eastlink.ca>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 21:47:34 -0300

Hello All; Nick certainly has a point � even people indifferent to larvae are enthralled by emergence. Kids in particular. Date is a factor, but I have found that many species will emerge in the fall if collected in October (C. shurtleffii, B. janata, Cordulegaster maculatus, S. septentrionalis � usually those which emerge early in the spring). This is excellent timing for an 'emergence tank' in schools near the beginning of the school year. Regards, Paul ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------- Paul M. Brunelle, BDes, FGDC 64 Buccaneer Road, East Chester Nova Scotia, Canada, B0J 1J0 902-277-0101 About 44.58�N, -64.0�W. Fellow of the Society of Graphic Designers of Canada Research Associate, New Brunswick Museum Regional Coordinator, Atlantic Dragonfly Inventory Program Coordinator, Maine Damselfly and Dragonfly Survey ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------- On Jul 28, 2010, at 9:39 PM, Thomas W Donnelly wrote: > I once devised a small exhibit containing a few dozen gomphid > larvae just ready to emerge. They did so in rather spectacular > fashion and the exhibit managed to dominate the hallway in which it > was located for more than a week. This required very little > hardware (a small aquarium and suitable screening) but did require > someone to collect the larvae and to deal with the emergents. It > was, of course, very much date dependent and couldn't be followed > by similar exhibits throughout the year. Odonate emergence is a > very interesting thing to watch. It was great fun for all. > > Nick Donnelly > > On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 4:14 PM, Richard Groover > wrote: > Some additional information: > > > One case of adult Odonata rearing may be found at: > > Michiels, N.K. and Dhondt, A.A. 1991a. Characteristics of dispersal > in sexually mature damselflies. Ecological Entomology. 16: 449 � 459. > They made observations using �a large field enclosure (10 x 20 x 5 > m) containing a pond (8 x 3 m) in a nature reserve near Turnhout, > Belgium (50 00' E, 510 16' N) in 1986.� > > > Next summer I will be holding some adult dragonflies for a short > duration inside a 12� x 12� picnic tent (with mosquitoes netting). > I will be feeding them fruit flies attracted to old bananas and > houseflies that are emerging from maggots �preloaded� on rotting > meat, both inside the enclosure. > > > Richard > > > From: odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu [mailto:odonata-l- > bounces AT listhost.ups.edu] On Behalf Of Dennis Paulson > Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 10:48 PM > > > To: Rebecca Kittel > Cc: odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu; dnoble AT sbzoo.org; Kathy &/or Dave > Biggs > Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] odonata exhibit > > > > Hello, all. > > > It has proven quite difficult to keep adult dragonflies > (Anisoptera) in captivity. It has been done with Sympetrum danae > (Black Meadowhawk, Black Darter), with flight cages set up by > researchers. I don't think anyone has tried it with really large > walk-in enclosures as are used in butterfly displays all over the > world. But in smaller cages, most anisopterans just fly to the mesh > and hang on, with no normal behavior. Dragonflies seem to need > quite a large space to maneuver, even the smaller species. > > > Damselflies such as Enallagma (bluets) and Ischnura (forktails) > have been kept in smaller enclosures and would probably thrive in > an environment just like that where they were collected, but > they're not so impressive to visitors. > > > I would hope that someone somewhere would have the opportunity and > the spirit of experimentation to try a dragonfly exhibit that > entailed nothing more than collecting individuals of local species > and releasing them in a large, beautifully landscaped wetland > enclosure to see which, if any, would thrive in such an > environment. I think it would have to be large. If they were local > species, they would just live out their lives (which aren't > terribly long) and die. Of course you'd have to provide food, fruit > flies and/or house flies and/or midges. Perhaps large areas could > be mesh of a size that would not allow odonates out but would allow > other small insects in. > > > Another way to do this would be to stock these enclosed water > bodies with local pond larvae to see what happened. But again, the > tenerals would probably fly up and hang on the mesh, and I have no > idea what they would do ultimately. In most cases, they disperse > well away from where they emerged, and it may be that without that > dispesal event, they wouldn't move into a mode of normal behavior. > > > I would strongly advise against getting exotic species, even those > from a few states away. I guess those are the ones Rebecca asked > about in her last sentence. Thank goodness that no one is selling > live dragonflies, to my knowledge. > > > I would say an easy way to experiment would be just to introduce > some local dragonflies into butterfly houses, but you wouldn't want > to have the species that favored Lepidoptera for lunch! I think > small species such as Pachydiplax and Sympetrum would probably be > fine in that milieu, if they would take to it. I doubt very much if > you could get really large, showy species established in such a place. > > > Dennis > > > > On Jul 27, 2010, at 6:58 PM, Rebecca Kittel wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > I think it depends on some factors. > You can easily construct a walk through pavilion like a couple of > butterfly or tropical houses have it (with double mesh doors). > But the difficult thing is to raise the dragonflies (and > damselflies?). You have to provide different water habitats (e.g. > ponds, streams) for the different odonata species and plenty of > food. Ideally, you should be aware where (on which plant and at > which distance to the water) the shown species emerge to give them > a good start. > Or in the case that you only want to display the adults: you have > to catch them (and the food!) at regular intervals, due to the > short life span. > As far as I know, it is not common to sell (alive) dragonflies as > you can buy butterflies. So you are depending on the species you > have in your area. > > And one question to think about: what do you do with the speciments > after the exhibition? > > Cheers, > Rebecca > > PS: I heard once from a dragonfly Museum in Japan, but I couldn't > find it... > > > > Can anyone give Dean (see message below) any further info? > > I mentioned dragonflies needing food and their short flight > seasons.... > > Thanks!! > > Would appreciate your responding to the whole group as I know other > > places are interested in such endeavors!! > > Kathy Biggs > > > -------- Original Message -------- > > Subject: Note from Santa Barbara Zoo > > Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 15:33:36 -0700 > > From: Dean Noble > > To: > > > > > Dear Ms. Biggs: > > > How difficult would it be for the Santa Barbara Zoo to build a > temporary > > walk-thru dragonfly pavilion exhibit? > > > We envision it running May 1st through Labor Day weekend (or > longer) in > > 2011. > > > Do you know of such a facility anywhere else? > > > Cordially, > > > > Dean Noble > > > Director of Marketing > > > Santa Barbara Zoo > > > 500 Ninos Drive > > > Santa Barbara, CA 93103 > > > > > (805)962-5339 ext. 116 > > > (805)962-3659 FAX > > > dnoble AT sbzoo.org > > > www.sbzoo.org > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Kathy and Dave Biggs bigsnest AT sonic.net 707-823-2911 > > 308 Bloomfield Rd. Sebastopol, CA 95472 > > > > ----- > > Dennis Paulson > > 1724 NE 98 St. > > Seattle, WA 98115 > > 206-528-1382 > > dennispaulson AT comcast.net > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Odonata-l mailing list > Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu > https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l > > > _______________________________________________ > Odonata-l mailing list > Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu > https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: odonata exhibit
From: Thomas W Donnelly <tdonelly AT binghamton.edu>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 20:39:10 -0400

I once devised a small exhibit containing a few dozen gomphid larvae just ready to emerge. They did so in rather spectacular fashion and the exhibit managed to dominate the hallway in which it was located for more than a week. This required very little hardware (a small aquarium and suitable screening) but did require someone to collect the larvae and to deal with the emergents. It was, of course, very much date dependent and couldn't be followed by similar exhibits throughout the year. Odonate emergence is a very interesting thing to watch. It was great fun for all. Nick Donnelly On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 4:14 PM, Richard Groover wrote: > Some additional information: > > > > One case of adult Odonata rearing may be found at: > Michiels, N.K. and Dhondt, A.A. 1991a. Characteristics of dispersal in > sexually mature damselflies. Ecological Entomology. 16: 449 � 459. > > They made observations using �a large field enclosure (10 x 20 x 5 m) > containing a pond (8 x 3 m) in a nature reserve near Turnhout, Belgium (50 > 00' E, 510 16' N) in 1986.� > > > > Next summer I will be holding some adult dragonflies for a short duration > inside a 12� x 12� picnic tent (with mosquitoes netting). I will be feeding > them fruit flies attracted to old bananas and houseflies that are emerging > from maggots �preloaded� on rotting meat, both inside the enclosure. > > > > Richard > > > > *From:* odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu [mailto: > odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu] *On Behalf Of *Dennis Paulson > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 27, 2010 10:48 PM > > *To:* Rebecca Kittel > *Cc:* odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu; dnoble AT sbzoo.org; Kathy &/or Dave Biggs > *Subject:* Re: [Odonata-l] odonata exhibit > > > > Hello, all. > > > > It has proven quite difficult to keep adult dragonflies (Anisoptera) in > captivity. It has been done with *Sympetrum danae* (Black Meadowhawk, > Black Darter), with flight cages set up by researchers. I don't think anyone > has tried it with really large walk-in enclosures as are used in butterfly > displays all over the world. But in smaller cages, most anisopterans just > fly to the mesh and hang on, with no normal behavior. Dragonflies seem to > need quite a large space to maneuver, even the smaller species. > > > > Damselflies such as *Enallagma* (bluets) and *Ischnura* (forktails) have > been kept in smaller enclosures and would probably thrive in an environment > just like that where they were collected, but they're not so impressive to > visitors. > > > > I would hope that someone somewhere would have the opportunity and the > spirit of experimentation to try a dragonfly exhibit that entailed nothing > more than collecting individuals of local species and releasing them in a > large, beautifully landscaped wetland enclosure to see which, if any, would > thrive in such an environment. I think it would have to be large. If they > were local species, they would just live out their lives (which aren't > terribly long) and die. Of course you'd have to provide food, fruit flies > and/or house flies and/or midges. Perhaps large areas could be mesh of a > size that would not allow odonates out but would allow other small insects > in. > > > > Another way to do this would be to stock these enclosed water bodies with > local pond larvae to see what happened. But again, the tenerals would > probably fly up and hang on the mesh, and I have no idea what they would do > ultimately. In most cases, they disperse well away from where they emerged, > and it may be that without that dispesal event, they wouldn't move into a > mode of normal behavior. > > > > I would strongly advise against getting exotic species, even those from a > few states away. I guess those are the ones Rebecca asked about in her last > sentence. Thank goodness that no one is selling live dragonflies, to my > knowledge. > > > > I would say an easy way to experiment would be just to introduce some local > dragonflies into butterfly houses, but you wouldn't want to have the species > that favored Lepidoptera for lunch! I think small species such as * > Pachydiplax* and *Sympetrum* would probably be fine in that milieu, if > they would take to it. I doubt very much if you could get really large, > showy species established in such a place. > > > > Dennis > > > > > > On Jul 27, 2010, at 6:58 PM, Rebecca Kittel wrote: > > > > Hi, > > I think it depends on some factors. > You can easily construct a walk through pavilion like a couple of butterfly > or tropical houses have it (with double mesh doors). > But the difficult thing is to raise the dragonflies (and damselflies?). You > have to provide different water habitats (e.g. ponds, streams) for the > different odonata species and plenty of food. Ideally, you should be aware > where (on which plant and at which distance to the water) the shown species > emerge to give them a good start. > Or in the case that you only want to display the adults: you have to catch > them (and the food!) at regular intervals, due to the short life span. > As far as I know, it is not common to sell (alive) dragonflies as you can > buy butterflies. So you are depending on the species you have in your area. > > And one question to think about: what do you do with the speciments after > the exhibition? > > Cheers, > Rebecca > > PS: I heard once from a dragonfly Museum in Japan, but I couldn't find > it... > > > > Can anyone give Dean (see message below) any further info? > > I mentioned dragonflies needing food and their short flight seasons.... > > Thanks!! > > Would appreciate your responding to the whole group as I know other > > places are interested in such endeavors!! > > Kathy Biggs > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > > Subject: Note from Santa Barbara Zoo > > Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 15:33:36 -0700 > > From: Dean Noble > > To: > > > > > > > > Dear Ms. Biggs: > > > > How difficult would it be for the Santa Barbara Zoo to build a temporary > > walk-thru dragonfly pavilion exhibit? > > > > We envision it running May 1st through Labor Day weekend (or longer) in > > 2011. > > > > Do you know of such a facility anywhere else? > > > > Cordially, > > > > > > Dean Noble > > > > Director of Marketing > > > > Santa Barbara Zoo > > > > 500 Ninos Drive > > > > Santa Barbara, CA 93103 > > > > > > > > (805)962-5339 ext. 116 > > > > (805)962-3659 FAX > > > > dnoble AT sbzoo.org > > > > > www.sbzoo.org > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Kathy and Dave Biggs bigsnest AT sonic.net 707-823-2911 > > 308 Bloomfield Rd. Sebastopol, CA 95472 > > > > > > ----- > > Dennis Paulson > > 1724 NE 98 St. > > Seattle, WA 98115 > > 206-528-1382 > > dennispaulson AT comcast.net > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Odonata-l mailing list > Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu > https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l > >_______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: odonata exhibit
From: "Frederico A.A. Lencioni" <odonata AT zygoptera.bio.br>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 18:21:04 -0300

Dear Ola and folks, I know how hard is raise and keep alive adult damselflies but, can you imagine a large place with Pseudostigmatidae alive flying around humans? Observe Mecistogaster specimens flying and feeding on spider webs was one of the most incredible situation I lived. Hugs to all, Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Fincke, Ola M. To: Dennis Paulson ; Rebecca Kittel Cc: odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu ; dnoble AT sbzoo.org ; Kathy &/or Dave Biggs Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 8:14 AM Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] odonata exhibit Dear All, especially the zoo managers - As one who has spent a lot of US tax payers money trying to get odonates to perform in insectaries, I agree with Dennis, and add this opinion. The best thing for any zoo to do is to build some small, outdoor ponds in the area of human foragers (i.e. near kiosks or other places where humans feed). Even small water bodies will attract local species, and offer endless amusement for the more astute observer. Europe does this very well, not just in zoos but in biological gardens, parks, and the like. Putting money into a 'dragronfly walk through' pavillon is a waste of money, in my opinion. You will get much better results putting the time, effort, and money into providing actual breeding sites. Even if all you attract are the 'mundane' species, it won't make a difference - the public hat bothers to observe twill still marvel at the behavior of dragonflies and damselflies. Cheers, Ola Fincke ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu [odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu] on behalf of Dennis Paulson [dennispaulson AT comcast.net] Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 9:47 PM To: Rebecca Kittel Cc: odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu; dnoble AT sbzoo.org; Kathy &/or Dave Biggs Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] odonata exhibit Hello, all. It has proven quite difficult to keep adult dragonflies (Anisoptera) in captivity. It has been done with Sympetrum danae (Black Meadowhawk, Black Darter), with flight cages set up by researchers. I don't think anyone has tried it with really large walk-in enclosures as are used in butterfly displays all over the world. But in smaller cages, most anisopterans just fly to the mesh and hang on, with no normal behavior. Dragonflies seem to need quite a large space to maneuver, even the smaller species. Damselflies such as Enallagma (bluets) and Ischnura (forktails) have been kept in smaller enclosures and would probably thrive in an environment just like that where they were collected, but they're not so impressive to visitors. I would hope that someone somewhere would have the opportunity and the spirit of experimentation to try a dragonfly exhibit that entailed nothing more than collecting individuals of local species and releasing them in a large, beautifully landscaped wetland enclosure to see which, if any, would thrive in such an environment. I think it would have to be large. If they were local species, they would just live out their lives (which aren't terribly long) and die. Of course you'd have to provide food, fruit flies and/or house flies and/or midges. Perhaps large areas could be mesh of a size that would not allow odonates out but would allow other small insects in. Another way to do this would be to stock these enclosed water bodies with local pond larvae to see what happened. But again, the tenerals would probably fly up and hang on the mesh, and I have no idea what they would do ultimately. In most cases, they disperse well away from where they emerged, and it may be that without that dispesal event, they wouldn't move into a mode of normal behavior. I would strongly advise against getting exotic species, even those from a few states away. I guess those are the ones Rebecca asked about in her last sentence. Thank goodness that no one is selling live dragonflies, to my knowledge. I would say an easy way to experiment would be just to introduce some local dragonflies into butterfly houses, but you wouldn't want to have the species that favored Lepidoptera for lunch! I think small species such as Pachydiplax and Sympetrum would probably be fine in that milieu, if they would take to it. I doubt very much if you could get really large, showy species established in such a place. Dennis On Jul 27, 2010, at 6:58 PM, Rebecca Kittel wrote: Hi, I think it depends on some factors. You can easily construct a walk through pavilion like a couple of butterfly or tropical houses have it (with double mesh doors). But the difficult thing is to raise the dragonflies (and damselflies?). You have to provide different water habitats (e.g. ponds, streams) for the different odonata species and plenty of food. Ideally, you should be aware where (on which plant and at which distance to the water) the shown species emerge to give them a good start. Or in the case that you only want to display the adults: you have to catch them (and the food!) at regular intervals, due to the short life span. As far as I know, it is not common to sell (alive) dragonflies as you can buy butterflies. So you are depending on the species you have in your area. And one question to think about: what do you do with the speciments after the exhibition? Cheers, Rebecca PS: I heard once from a dragonfly Museum in Japan, but I couldn't find it... Can anyone give Dean (see message below) any further info? I mentioned dragonflies needing food and their short flight seasons.... Thanks!! Would appreciate your responding to the whole group as I know other places are interested in such endeavors!! Kathy Biggs -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Note from Santa Barbara Zoo Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 15:33:36 -0700 From: Dean Noble To: Dear Ms. Biggs: How difficult would it be for the Santa Barbara Zoo to build a temporary walk-thru dragonfly pavilion exhibit? We envision it running May 1st through Labor Day weekend (or longer) in 2011. Do you know of such a facility anywhere else? Cordially, Dean Noble Director of Marketing Santa Barbara Zoo 500 Ninos Drive Santa Barbara, CA 93103 (805)962-5339 ext. 116 (805)962-3659 FAX dnoble AT sbzoo.org www.sbzoo.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- Kathy and Dave Biggs bigsnest AT sonic.net 707-823-2911 308 Bloomfield Rd. Sebastopol, CA 95472 ----- Dennis Paulson 1724 NE 98 St. Seattle, WA 98115 206-528-1382 dennispaulson AT comcast.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l_______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: odonata exhibit
From: "Richard Groover" <rgroover AT reynolds.edu>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 16:14:29 -0400

Some additional information: One case of adult Odonata rearing may be found at: Michiels, N.K. and Dhondt, A.A. 1991a. Characteristics of dispersal in sexually mature damselflies. Ecological Entomology. 16: 449 - 459. They made observations using "a large field enclosure (10 x 20 x 5 m) containing a pond (8 x 3 m) in a nature reserve near Turnhout, Belgium (50 00' E, 510 16' N) in 1986." Next summer I will be holding some adult dragonflies for a short duration inside a 12' x 12' picnic tent (with mosquitoes netting). I will be feeding them fruit flies attracted to old bananas and houseflies that are emerging from maggots "preloaded" on rotting meat, both inside the enclosure. Richard From: odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu [mailto:odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu] On Behalf Of Dennis Paulson Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 10:48 PM To: Rebecca Kittel Cc: odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu; dnoble AT sbzoo.org; Kathy &/or Dave Biggs Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] odonata exhibit Hello, all. It has proven quite difficult to keep adult dragonflies (Anisoptera) in captivity. It has been done with Sympetrum danae (Black Meadowhawk, Black Darter), with flight cages set up by researchers. I don't think anyone has tried it with really large walk-in enclosures as are used in butterfly displays all over the world. But in smaller cages, most anisopterans just fly to the mesh and hang on, with no normal behavior. Dragonflies seem to need quite a large space to maneuver, even the smaller species. Damselflies such as Enallagma (bluets) and Ischnura (forktails) have been kept in smaller enclosures and would probably thrive in an environment just like that where they were collected, but they're not so impressive to visitors. I would hope that someone somewhere would have the opportunity and the spirit of experimentation to try a dragonfly exhibit that entailed nothing more than collecting individuals of local species and releasing them in a large, beautifully landscaped wetland enclosure to see which, if any, would thrive in such an environment. I think it would have to be large. If they were local species, they would just live out their lives (which aren't terribly long) and die. Of course you'd have to provide food, fruit flies and/or house flies and/or midges. Perhaps large areas could be mesh of a size that would not allow odonates out but would allow other small insects in. Another way to do this would be to stock these enclosed water bodies with local pond larvae to see what happened. But again, the tenerals would probably fly up and hang on the mesh, and I have no idea what they would do ultimately. In most cases, they disperse well away from where they emerged, and it may be that without that dispesal event, they wouldn't move into a mode of normal behavior. I would strongly advise against getting exotic species, even those from a few states away. I guess those are the ones Rebecca asked about in her last sentence. Thank goodness that no one is selling live dragonflies, to my knowledge. I would say an easy way to experiment would be just to introduce some local dragonflies into butterfly houses, but you wouldn't want to have the species that favored Lepidoptera for lunch! I think small species such as Pachydiplax and Sympetrum would probably be fine in that milieu, if they would take to it. I doubt very much if you could get really large, showy species established in such a place. Dennis On Jul 27, 2010, at 6:58 PM, Rebecca Kittel wrote: Hi, I think it depends on some factors. You can easily construct a walk through pavilion like a couple of butterfly or tropical houses have it (with double mesh doors). But the difficult thing is to raise the dragonflies (and damselflies?). You have to provide different water habitats (e.g. ponds, streams) for the different odonata species and plenty of food. Ideally, you should be aware where (on which plant and at which distance to the water) the shown species emerge to give them a good start. Or in the case that you only want to display the adults: you have to catch them (and the food!) at regular intervals, due to the short life span. As far as I know, it is not common to sell (alive) dragonflies as you can buy butterflies. So you are depending on the species you have in your area. And one question to think about: what do you do with the speciments after the exhibition? Cheers, Rebecca PS: I heard once from a dragonfly Museum in Japan, but I couldn't find it... Can anyone give Dean (see message below) any further info? I mentioned dragonflies needing food and their short flight seasons.... Thanks!! Would appreciate your responding to the whole group as I know other places are interested in such endeavors!! Kathy Biggs -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Note from Santa Barbara Zoo Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 15:33:36 -0700 From: Dean Noble To: Dear Ms. Biggs: How difficult would it be for the Santa Barbara Zoo to build a temporary walk-thru dragonfly pavilion exhibit? We envision it running May 1st through Labor Day weekend (or longer) in 2011. Do you know of such a facility anywhere else? Cordially, Dean Noble Director of Marketing Santa Barbara Zoo 500 Ninos Drive Santa Barbara, CA 93103 (805)962-5339 ext. 116 (805)962-3659 FAX dnoble AT sbzoo.org www.sbzoo.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- Kathy and Dave Biggs bigsnest AT sonic.net 707-823-2911 308 Bloomfield Rd. Sebastopol, CA 95472 ----- Dennis Paulson 1724 NE 98 St. Seattle, WA 98115 206-528-1382 dennispaulson AT comcast.net _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Pachydiplax longipennis "presenting" and exercising penis video
From: Martha Smith <scldrgnfly AT gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 15:45:54 -0400

I thought you all might like to see what some of the movements of a dragonfly's extended abdomen might look like from the side when it extends its abdomen and moves it around in a form of "presentation" during the reproductive stage. Part way through the video he is exposing part of his genitals and then he actually sticks his penis out and exercises it. This was shortly before it left its perch to engage a nearby female. The Youtube channel is - *scldrgnfly* - Here's the direct Youtube link for the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-zjoNUdKvM It should be posted soon. If you can't pull it up, just plug in - scldrgnfly - in the search box on youtube and look for where it says the number of videos on my channel and look for the page that has, "Dragonfly Pachydiplax longipennis Blue Dasher Presenting and Exercising Its Penis." Thanks. Martha Edwards Smith_______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: odonata exhibit
From: Thomas Schultz <schultz AT denison.edu>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 09:25:10 -0400

The Brookfield Zoo outside of Chicago, Illinois, has created just such a water park, like a butterfly garden, for dragonflies. Tom Tom D. Schultz, Ph.D. Professor of Biology Denison University Granville, OH 43023 740-587-6218 schultz AT denison.edu On Jul 28, 2010, at 7:14 AM, Fincke, Ola M. wrote: > Dear All, especially the zoo managers - > > As one who has spent a lot of US tax payers money trying to get > odonates to perform in insectaries, I agree with Dennis, and add > this opinion. > > The best thing for any zoo to do is to build some small, outdoor > ponds in the area of human foragers (i.e. near kiosks or other > places where humans feed). Even small water bodies will attract > local species, and offer endless amusement for the more astute > observer. Europe does this very well, not just in zoos but in > biological gardens, parks, and the like. > > Putting money into a 'dragronfly walk through' pavillon is a waste > of money, in my opinion. You will get much better results putting > the time, effort, and money into providing actual breeding sites. > Even if all you attract are the 'mundane' species, it won't make a > difference - the public hat bothers to observe twill still marvel > at the behavior of dragonflies and damselflies. > > Cheers, > Ola Fincke > > > From: odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu [odonata-l- > bounces AT listhost.ups.edu] on behalf of Dennis Paulson > [dennispaulson AT comcast.net] > Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 9:47 PM > To: Rebecca Kittel > Cc: odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu; dnoble AT sbzoo.org; Kathy &/or Dave > Biggs > Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] odonata exhibit > > Hello, all. > > It has proven quite difficult to keep adult dragonflies > (Anisoptera) in captivity. It has been done with Sympetrum danae > (Black Meadowhawk, Black Darter), with flight cages set up by > researchers. I don't think anyone has tried it with really large > walk-in enclosures as are used in butterfly displays all over the > world. But in smaller cages, most anisopterans just fly to the mesh > and hang on, with no normal behavior. Dragonflies seem to need > quite a large space to maneuver, even the smaller species. > > Damselflies such as Enallagma (bluets) and Ischnura (forktails) > have been kept in smaller enclosures and would probably thrive in > an environment just like that where they were collected, but > they're not so impressive to visitors. > > I would hope that someone somewhere would have the opportunity and > the spirit of experimentation to try a dragonfly exhibit that > entailed nothing more than collecting individuals of local species > and releasing them in a large, beautifully landscaped wetland > enclosure to see which, if any, would thrive in such an > environment. I think it would have to be large. If they were local > species, they would just live out their lives (which aren't > terribly long) and die. Of course you'd have to provide food, fruit > flies and/or house flies and/or midges. Perhaps large areas could > be mesh of a size that would not allow odonates out but would allow > other small insects in. > > Another way to do this would be to stock these enclosed water > bodies with local pond larvae to see what happened. But again, the > tenerals would probably fly up and hang on the mesh, and I have no > idea what they would do ultimately. In most cases, they disperse > well away from where they emerged, and it may be that without that > dispesal event, they wouldn't move into a mode of normal behavior. > > I would strongly advise against getting exotic species, even those > from a few states away. I guess those are the ones Rebecca asked > about in her last sentence. Thank goodness that no one is selling > live dragonflies, to my knowledge. > > I would say an easy way to experiment would be just to introduce > some local dragonflies into butterfly houses, but you wouldn't want > to have the species that favored Lepidoptera for lunch! I think > small species such as Pachydiplax and Sympetrum would probably be > fine in that milieu, if they would take to it. I doubt very much if > you could get really large, showy species established in such a place. > > Dennis > > > On Jul 27, 2010, at 6:58 PM, Rebecca Kittel wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I think it depends on some factors. >> You can easily construct a walk through pavilion like a couple of >> butterfly or tropical houses have it (with double mesh doors). >> But the difficult thing is to raise the dragonflies (and >> damselflies?). You have to provide different water habitats (e.g. >> ponds, streams) for the different odonata species and plenty of >> food. Ideally, you should be aware where (on which plant and at >> which distance to the water) the shown species emerge to give them >> a good start. >> Or in the case that you only want to display the adults: you have >> to catch them (and the food!) at regular intervals, due to the >> short life span. >> As far as I know, it is not common to sell (alive) dragonflies as >> you can buy butterflies. So you are depending on the species you >> have in your area. >> >> And one question to think about: what do you do with the >> speciments after the exhibition? >> >> Cheers, >> Rebecca >> >> PS: I heard once from a dragonfly Museum in Japan, but I couldn't >> find it... >> >> >>> Can anyone give Dean (see message below) any further info? >>> I mentioned dragonflies needing food and their short flight >>> seasons.... >>> Thanks!! >>> Would appreciate your responding to the whole group as I know other >>> places are interested in such endeavors!! >>> Kathy Biggs >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> Subject: Note from Santa Barbara Zoo >>> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 15:33:36 -0700 >>> From: Dean Noble >>> To: >>> >>> >>> >>> Dear Ms. Biggs: >>> >>> How difficult would it be for the Santa Barbara Zoo to build a >>> temporary >>> walk-thru dragonfly pavilion exhibit? >>> >>> We envision it running May 1st through Labor Day weekend (or >>> longer) in >>> 2011. >>> >>> Do you know of such a facility anywhere else? >>> >>> Cordially, >>> >>> >>> Dean Noble >>> >>> Director of Marketing >>> >>> Santa Barbara Zoo >>> >>> 500 Ninos Drive >>> >>> Santa Barbara, CA 93103 >>> >>> >>> >>> (805)962-5339 ext. 116 >>> >>> (805)962-3659 FAX >>> >>> dnoble AT sbzoo.org >>> >>> www.sbzoo.org >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Kathy and Dave Biggs bigsnest AT sonic.net 707-823-2911 >>> 308 Bloomfield Rd. Sebastopol, CA 95472 >>> > > ----- > Dennis Paulson > 1724 NE 98 St. > Seattle, WA 98115 > 206-528-1382 > dennispaulson AT comcast.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > Odonata-l mailing list > Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu > https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: odonata exhibit
From: Ethan Bright <ethanbr AT umich.edu>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 09:18:41 -0400

Perhaps too much emphasis on the adult phase? Perhaps a better way to approach it is to focus on nymphs - raise locally collected specimens in aquariums and follow their growth phases until they emerge, with a final release into the environment. That way people can maybe observe feeding modes, diet (midges, fish, oligochaets, etc.), and habit (clingers, sprawlers, burrowers, etc.). Just a thought. Cheers, Ethan On 7/28/2010 7:14 AM, Fincke, Ola M. wrote: > Dear All, especially the zoo managers - > > As one who has spent a lot of US tax payers money trying to get > odonates to perform in insectaries, I agree with Dennis, and add this > opinion. > > The best thing for any zoo to do is to build some small, outdoor ponds > in the area of human foragers (i.e. near kiosks or other places where > humans feed). Even small water bodies will attract local species, and > offer endless amusement for the more astute observer. Europe does > this very well, not just in zoos but in biological gardens, parks, > and the like. > > Putting money into a 'dragronfly walk through' pavillon is a waste of > money, in my opinion. You will get much better results putting the > time, effort, and money into providing actual breeding sites. Even if > all you attract are the 'mundane' species, it won't make a difference > - the public hat bothers to observe twill still marvel at the behavior > of dragonflies and damselflies. _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: odonata exhibit
From: "O'Brien, Mark" <mfobrien AT umich.edu>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 09:09:31 -0400

I agree with Ola. Odonates do not do well in enclosures, and unlike butterflies, are not lured to a nectar source where they can be observed. The best thing anyone can do is provide outdoor habitat to attract local species. You can not only use this as an introduction to Odonata, but also as a way to impress upon people that aquatic habitats are necessary for their survival, and that Odonata are part of an ecology that is under constant threat - especially in California and other water-starved states. The average person on the street often doesn't even know that there are two widely different life stages in dragonflies, and that the nymphs need an aquatic habitat. Mark From: odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu [mailto:odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu] On Behalf Of Fincke, Ola M. Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 7:14 AM To: Dennis Paulson; Rebecca Kittel Cc: odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu; dnoble AT sbzoo.org; Kathy &/or Dave Biggs Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] odonata exhibit Dear All, especially the zoo managers - As one who has spent a lot of US tax payers money trying to get odonates to perform in insectaries, I agree with Dennis, and add this opinion. The best thing for any zoo to do is to build some small, outdoor ponds in the area of human foragers (i.e. near kiosks or other places where humans feed). Even small water bodies will attract local species, and offer endless amusement for the more astute observer. Europe does this very well, not just in zoos but in biological gardens, parks, and the like. Putting money into a 'dragronfly walk through' pavillon is a waste of money, in my opinion. You will get much better results putting the time, effort, and money into providing actual breeding sites. Even if all you attract are the 'mundane' species, it won't make a difference - the public hat bothers to observe twill still marvel at the behavior of dragonflies and damselflies. Cheers, Ola Fincke ________________________________ From: odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu [odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu] on behalf of Dennis Paulson [dennispaulson AT comcast.net] Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 9:47 PM To: Rebecca Kittel Cc: odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu; dnoble AT sbzoo.org; Kathy &/or Dave Biggs Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] odonata exhibit Hello, all. It has proven quite difficult to keep adult dragonflies (Anisoptera) in captivity. It has been done with Sympetrum danae (Black Meadowhawk, Black Darter), with flight cages set up by researchers. I don't think anyone has tried it with really large walk-in enclosures as are used in butterfly displays all over the world. But in smaller cages, most anisopterans just fly to the mesh and hang on, with no normal behavior. Dragonflies seem to need quite a large space to maneuver, even the smaller species. Damselflies such as Enallagma (bluets) and Ischnura (forktails) have been kept in smaller enclosures and would probably thrive in an environment just like that where they were collected, but they're not so impressive to visitors. I would hope that someone somewhere would have the opportunity and the spirit of experimentation to try a dragonfly exhibit that entailed nothing more than collecting individuals of local species and releasing them in a large, beautifully landscaped wetland enclosure to see which, if any, would thrive in such an environment. I think it would have to be large. If they were local species, they would just live out their lives (which aren't terribly long) and die. Of course you'd have to provide food, fruit flies and/or house flies and/or midges. Perhaps large areas could be mesh of a size that would not allow odonates out but would allow other small insects in. Another way to do this would be to stock these enclosed water bodies with local pond larvae to see what happened. But again, the tenerals would probably fly up and hang on the mesh, and I have no idea what they would do ultimately. In most cases, they disperse well away from where they emerged, and it may be that without that dispesal event, they wouldn't move into a mode of normal behavior. I would strongly advise against getting exotic species, even those from a few states away. I guess those are the ones Rebecca asked about in her last sentence. Thank goodness that no one is selling live dragonflies, to my knowledge. I would say an easy way to experiment would be just to introduce some local dragonflies into butterfly houses, but you wouldn't want to have the species that favored Lepidoptera for lunch! I think small species such as Pachydiplax and Sympetrum would probably be fine in that milieu, if they would take to it. I doubt very much if you could get really large, showy species established in such a place. Dennis On Jul 27, 2010, at 6:58 PM, Rebecca Kittel wrote: Hi, I think it depends on some factors. You can easily construct a walk through pavilion like a couple of butterfly or tropical houses have it (with double mesh doors). But the difficult thing is to raise the dragonflies (and damselflies?). You have to provide different water habitats (e.g. ponds, streams) for the different odonata species and plenty of food. Ideally, you should be aware where (on which plant and at which distance to the water) the shown species emerge to give them a good start. Or in the case that you only want to display the adults: you have to catch them (and the food!) at regular intervals, due to the short life span. As far as I know, it is not common to sell (alive) dragonflies as you can buy butterflies. So you are depending on the species you have in your area. And one question to think about: what do you do with the speciments after the exhibition? Cheers, Rebecca PS: I heard once from a dragonfly Museum in Japan, but I couldn't find it... Can anyone give Dean (see message below) any further info? I mentioned dragonflies needing food and their short flight seasons.... Thanks!! Would appreciate your responding to the whole group as I know other places are interested in such endeavors!! Kathy Biggs -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Note from Santa Barbara Zoo Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 15:33:36 -0700 From: Dean Noble > To: > Dear Ms. Biggs: How difficult would it be for the Santa Barbara Zoo to build a temporary walk-thru dragonfly pavilion exhibit? We envision it running May 1st through Labor Day weekend (or longer) in 2011. Do you know of such a facility anywhere else? Cordially, Dean Noble Director of Marketing Santa Barbara Zoo 500 Ninos Drive Santa Barbara, CA 93103 (805)962-5339 ext. 116 (805)962-3659 FAX dnoble AT sbzoo.org www.sbzoo.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- Kathy and Dave Biggs bigsnest AT sonic.net 707-823-2911 308 Bloomfield Rd. Sebastopol, CA 95472 ----- Dennis Paulson 1724 NE 98 St. Seattle, WA 98115 206-528-1382 dennispaulson AT comcast.net _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: odonata exhibit
From: Colin Adams <colinpauladams AT googlemail.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 12:22:09 +0100

I would say also to provide signboard displays adjacent to the ponds showing what species can be expected works well. More people will then make the effort to observe. I.E. flag there attention. On 28 July 2010 12:14, Fincke, Ola M. wrote: > Dear All, especially the zoo managers - > > > The best thing for any zoo to do is to build some small, outdoor ponds in > the area of human foragers (i.e. near kiosks or other places where humans > feed). Even small water bodies will attract local species, and offer > endless amusement for the more astute observer. > - the public hat bothers to observe twill still marvel at the > behavior of dragonflies and damselflies. > > Cheers, > Ola Fincke > -- Colin Adams Preston, Lancashire, ENGLAND () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments_______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: odonata exhibit
From: "J J Daigle" <jdaigle AT nettally.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 07:20:43 -0400

Aloha, Compadres! I agree with Ola. Aloha nui! Jerrell ----- Original Message ----- From: Fincke, Ola M. To: Dennis Paulson ; Rebecca Kittel Cc: odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu ; dnoble AT sbzoo.org ; Kathy &/or Dave Biggs Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 7:14 AM Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] odonata exhibit Dear All, especially the zoo managers - As one who has spent a lot of US tax payers money trying to get odonates to perform in insectaries, I agree with Dennis, and add this opinion. The best thing for any zoo to do is to build some small, outdoor ponds in the area of human foragers (i.e. near kiosks or other places where humans feed). Even small water bodies will attract local species, and offer endless amusement for the more astute observer. Europe does this very well, not just in zoos but in biological gardens, parks, and the like. Putting money into a 'dragronfly walk through' pavillon is a waste of money, in my opinion. You will get much better results putting the time, effort, and money into providing actual breeding sites. Even if all you attract are the 'mundane' species, it won't make a difference - the public hat bothers to observe twill still marvel at the behavior of dragonflies and damselflies. Cheers, Ola Fincke ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu [odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu] on behalf of Dennis Paulson [dennispaulson AT comcast.net] Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 9:47 PM To: Rebecca Kittel Cc: odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu; dnoble AT sbzoo.org; Kathy &/or Dave Biggs Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] odonata exhibit Hello, all. It has proven quite difficult to keep adult dragonflies (Anisoptera) in captivity. It has been done with Sympetrum danae (Black Meadowhawk, Black Darter), with flight cages set up by researchers. I don't think anyone has tried it with really large walk-in enclosures as are used in butterfly displays all over the world. But in smaller cages, most anisopterans just fly to the mesh and hang on, with no normal behavior. Dragonflies seem to need quite a large space to maneuver, even the smaller species. Damselflies such as Enallagma (bluets) and Ischnura (forktails) have been kept in smaller enclosures and would probably thrive in an environment just like that where they were collected, but they're not so impressive to visitors. I would hope that someone somewhere would have the opportunity and the spirit of experimentation to try a dragonfly exhibit that entailed nothing more than collecting individuals of local species and releasing them in a large, beautifully landscaped wetland enclosure to see which, if any, would thrive in such an environment. I think it would have to be large. If they were local species, they would just live out their lives (which aren't terribly long) and die. Of course you'd have to provide food, fruit flies and/or house flies and/or midges. Perhaps large areas could be mesh of a size that would not allow odonates out but would allow other small insects in. Another way to do this would be to stock these enclosed water bodies with local pond larvae to see what happened. But again, the tenerals would probably fly up and hang on the mesh, and I have no idea what they would do ultimately. In most cases, they disperse well away from where they emerged, and it may be that without that dispesal event, they wouldn't move into a mode of normal behavior. I would strongly advise against getting exotic species, even those from a few states away. I guess those are the ones Rebecca asked about in her last sentence. Thank goodness that no one is selling live dragonflies, to my knowledge. I would say an easy way to experiment would be just to introduce some local dragonflies into butterfly houses, but you wouldn't want to have the species that favored Lepidoptera for lunch! I think small species such as Pachydiplax and Sympetrum would probably be fine in that milieu, if they would take to it. I doubt very much if you could get really large, showy species established in such a place. Dennis On Jul 27, 2010, at 6:58 PM, Rebecca Kittel wrote: Hi, I think it depends on some factors. You can easily construct a walk through pavilion like a couple of butterfly or tropical houses have it (with double mesh doors). But the difficult thing is to raise the dragonflies (and damselflies?). You have to provide different water habitats (e.g. ponds, streams) for the different odonata species and plenty of food. Ideally, you should be aware where (on which plant and at which distance to the water) the shown species emerge to give them a good start. Or in the case that you only want to display the adults: you have to catch them (and the food!) at regular intervals, due to the short life span. As far as I know, it is not common to sell (alive) dragonflies as you can buy butterflies. So you are depending on the species you have in your area. And one question to think about: what do you do with the speciments after the exhibition? Cheers, Rebecca PS: I heard once from a dragonfly Museum in Japan, but I couldn't find it... Can anyone give Dean (see message below) any further info? I mentioned dragonflies needing food and their short flight seasons.... Thanks!! Would appreciate your responding to the whole group as I know other places are interested in such endeavors!! Kathy Biggs -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Note from Santa Barbara Zoo Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 15:33:36 -0700 From: Dean Noble To: Dear Ms. Biggs: How difficult would it be for the Santa Barbara Zoo to build a temporary walk-thru dragonfly pavilion exhibit? We envision it running May 1st through Labor Day weekend (or longer) in 2011. Do you know of such a facility anywhere else? Cordially, Dean Noble Director of Marketing Santa Barbara Zoo 500 Ninos Drive Santa Barbara, CA 93103 (805)962-5339 ext. 116 (805)962-3659 FAX dnoble AT sbzoo.org www.sbzoo.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- Kathy and Dave Biggs bigsnest AT sonic.net 707-823-2911 308 Bloomfield Rd. Sebastopol, CA 95472 ----- Dennis Paulson 1724 NE 98 St. Seattle, WA 98115 206-528-1382 dennispaulson AT comcast.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3032 - Release Date: 07/27/10 14:34:00 _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: odonata exhibit
From: "Fincke, Ola M." <fincke AT ou.edu>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 11:14:14 +0000

Dear All, especially the zoo managers - As one who has spent a lot of US tax payers money trying to get odonates to perform in insectaries, I agree with Dennis, and add this opinion. The best thing for any zoo to do is to build some small, outdoor ponds in the area of human foragers (i.e. near kiosks or other places where humans feed). Even small water bodies will attract local species, and offer endless amusement for the more astute observer. Europe does this very well, not just in zoos but in biological gardens, parks, and the like. Putting money into a 'dragronfly walk through' pavillon is a waste of money, in my opinion. You will get much better results putting the time, effort, and money into providing actual breeding sites. Even if all you attract are the 'mundane' species, it won't make a difference - the public hat bothers to observe twill still marvel at the behavior of dragonflies and damselflies. Cheers, Ola Fincke ________________________________ From: odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu [odonata-l-bounces AT listhost.ups.edu] on behalf of Dennis Paulson [dennispaulson AT comcast.net] Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 9:47 PM To: Rebecca Kittel Cc: odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu; dnoble AT sbzoo.org; Kathy &/or Dave Biggs Subject: Re: [Odonata-l] odonata exhibit Hello, all. It has proven quite difficult to keep adult dragonflies (Anisoptera) in captivity. It has been done with Sympetrum danae (Black Meadowhawk, Black Darter), with flight cages set up by researchers. I don't think anyone has tried it with really large walk-in enclosures as are used in butterfly displays all over the world. But in smaller cages, most anisopterans just fly to the mesh and hang on, with no normal behavior. Dragonflies seem to need quite a large space to maneuver, even the smaller species. Damselflies such as Enallagma (bluets) and Ischnura (forktails) have been kept in smaller enclosures and would probably thrive in an environment just like that where they were collected, but they're not so impressive to visitors. I would hope that someone somewhere would have the opportunity and the spirit of experimentation to try a dragonfly exhibit that entailed nothing more than collecting individuals of local species and releasing them in a large, beautifully landscaped wetland enclosure to see which, if any, would thrive in such an environment. I think it would have to be large. If they were local species, they would just live out their lives (which aren't terribly long) and die. Of course you'd have to provide food, fruit flies and/or house flies and/or midges. Perhaps large areas could be mesh of a size that would not allow odonates out but would allow other small insects in. Another way to do this would be to stock these enclosed water bodies with local pond larvae to see what happened. But again, the tenerals would probably fly up and hang on the mesh, and I have no idea what they would do ultimately. In most cases, they disperse well away from where they emerged, and it may be that without that dispesal event, they wouldn't move into a mode of normal behavior. I would strongly advise against getting exotic species, even those from a few states away. I guess those are the ones Rebecca asked about in her last sentence. Thank goodness that no one is selling live dragonflies, to my knowledge. I would say an easy way to experiment would be just to introduce some local dragonflies into butterfly houses, but you wouldn't want to have the species that favored Lepidoptera for lunch! I think small species such as Pachydiplax and Sympetrum would probably be fine in that milieu, if they would take to it. I doubt very much if you could get really large, showy species established in such a place. Dennis On Jul 27, 2010, at 6:58 PM, Rebecca Kittel wrote: Hi, I think it depends on some factors. You can easily construct a walk through pavilion like a couple of butterfly or tropical houses have it (with double mesh doors). But the difficult thing is to raise the dragonflies (and damselflies?). You have to provide different water habitats (e.g. ponds, streams) for the different odonata species and plenty of food. Ideally, you should be aware where (on which plant and at which distance to the water) the shown species emerge to give them a good start. Or in the case that you only want to display the adults: you have to catch them (and the food!) at regular intervals, due to the short life span. As far as I know, it is not common to sell (alive) dragonflies as you can buy butterflies. So you are depending on the species you have in your area. And one question to think about: what do you do with the speciments after the exhibition? Cheers, Rebecca PS: I heard once from a dragonfly Museum in Japan, but I couldn't find it... Can anyone give Dean (see message below) any further info? I mentioned dragonflies needing food and their short flight seasons.... Thanks!! Would appreciate your responding to the whole group as I know other places are interested in such endeavors!! Kathy Biggs -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Note from Santa Barbara Zoo Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 15:33:36 -0700 From: Dean Noble > To: > Dear Ms. Biggs: How difficult would it be for the Santa Barbara Zoo to build a temporary walk-thru dragonfly pavilion exhibit? We envision it running May 1st through Labor Day weekend (or longer) in 2011. Do you know of such a facility anywhere else? Cordially, Dean Noble Director of Marketing Santa Barbara Zoo 500 Ninos Drive Santa Barbara, CA 93103 (805)962-5339 ext. 116 (805)962-3659 FAX dnoble AT sbzoo.org www.sbzoo.org ---------------------------------------------------------------- Kathy and Dave Biggs bigsnest AT sonic.net 707-823-2911 308 Bloomfield Rd. Sebastopol, CA 95472 ----- Dennis Paulson 1724 NE 98 St. Seattle, WA 98115 206-528-1382 dennispaulson AT comcast.net _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: odonata exhibit
From: Dennis Paulson <dennispaulson AT comcast.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 19:47:39 -0700

Hello, all. It has proven quite difficult to keep adult dragonflies (Anisoptera) in captivity. It has been done with Sympetrum danae (Black Meadowhawk, Black Darter), with flight cages set up by researchers. I don't think anyone has tried it with really large walk-in enclosures as are used in butterfly displays all over the world. But in smaller cages, most anisopterans just fly to the mesh and hang on, with no normal behavior. Dragonflies seem to need quite a large space to maneuver, even the smaller species. Damselflies such as Enallagma (bluets) and Ischnura (forktails) have been kept in smaller enclosures and would probably thrive in an environment just like that where they were collected, but they're not so impressive to visitors. I would hope that someone somewhere would have the opportunity and the spirit of experimentation to try a dragonfly exhibit that entailed nothing more than collecting individuals of local species and releasing them in a large, beautifully landscaped wetland enclosure to see which, if any, would thrive in such an environment. I think it would have to be large. If they were local species, they would just live out their lives (which aren't terribly long) and die. Of course you'd have to provide food, fruit flies and/or house flies and/or midges. Perhaps large areas could be mesh of a size that would not allow odonates out but would allow other small insects in. Another way to do this would be to stock these enclosed water bodies with local pond larvae to see what happened. But again, the tenerals would probably fly up and hang on the mesh, and I have no idea what they would do ultimately. In most cases, they disperse well away from where they emerged, and it may be that without that dispesal event, they wouldn't move into a mode of normal behavior. I would strongly advise against getting exotic species, even those from a few states away. I guess those are the ones Rebecca asked about in her last sentence. Thank goodness that no one is selling live dragonflies, to my knowledge. I would say an easy way to experiment would be just to introduce some local dragonflies into butterfly houses, but you wouldn't want to have the species that favored Lepidoptera for lunch! I think small species such as Pachydiplax and Sympetrum would probably be fine in that milieu, if they would take to it. I doubt very much if you could get really large, showy species established in such a place. Dennis On Jul 27, 2010, at 6:58 PM, Rebecca Kittel wrote: > Hi, > > I think it depends on some factors. > You can easily construct a walk through pavilion like a couple of butterfly or tropical houses have it (with double mesh doors). > But the difficult thing is to raise the dragonflies (and damselflies?). You have to provide different water habitats (e.g. ponds, streams) for the different odonata species and plenty of food. Ideally, you should be aware where (on which plant and at which distance to the water) the shown species emerge to give them a good start. > Or in the case that you only want to display the adults: you have to catch them (and the food!) at regular intervals, due to the short life span. > As far as I know, it is not common to sell (alive) dragonflies as you can buy butterflies. So you are depending on the species you have in your area. > > And one question to think about: what do you do with the speciments after the exhibition? > > Cheers, > Rebecca > > PS: I heard once from a dragonfly Museum in Japan, but I couldn't find it... > > >> Can anyone give Dean (see message below) any further info? >> I mentioned dragonflies needing food and their short flight seasons.... >> Thanks!! >> Would appreciate your responding to the whole group as I know other >> places are interested in such endeavors!! >> Kathy Biggs >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> Subject: Note from Santa Barbara Zoo >> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 15:33:36 -0700 >> From: Dean Noble >> To: >> >> >> >> Dear Ms. Biggs: >> >> How difficult would it be for the Santa Barbara Zoo to build a temporary >> walk-thru dragonfly pavilion exhibit? >> >> We envision it running May 1st through Labor Day weekend (or longer) in >> 2011. >> >> Do you know of such a facility anywhere else? >> >> Cordially, >> >> >> Dean Noble >> >> Director of Marketing >> >> Santa Barbara Zoo >> >> 500 Ninos Drive >> >> Santa Barbara, CA 93103 >> >> >> >> (805)962-5339 ext. 116 >> >> (805)962-3659 FAX >> >> dnoble AT sbzoo.org >> >> www.sbzoo.org >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> Kathy and Dave Biggs bigsnest AT sonic.net 707-823-2911 >> 308 Bloomfield Rd. Sebastopol, CA 95472 >> ----- Dennis Paulson 1724 NE 98 St. Seattle, WA 98115 206-528-1382 dennispaulson AT comcast.net _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: odonata exhibit
From: "Rebecca Kittel" <Oma-Wetterwachs AT gmx.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 03:58:51 +0200

Hi, I think it depends on some factors. You can easily construct a walk through pavilion like a couple of butterfly or tropical houses have it (with double mesh doors). But the difficult thing is to raise the dragonflies (and damselflies?). You have to provide different water habitats (e.g. ponds, streams) for the different odonata species and plenty of food. Ideally, you should be aware where (on which plant and at which distance to the water) the shown species emerge to give them a good start. Or in the case that you only want to display the adults: you have to catch them (and the food!) at regular intervals, due to the short life span. As far as I know, it is not common to sell (alive) dragonflies as you can buy butterflies. So you are depending on the species you have in your area. And one question to think about: what do you do with the speciments after the exhibition? Cheers, Rebecca PS: I heard once from a dragonfly Museum in Japan, but I couldn't find it... > Can anyone give Dean (see message below) any further info? > I mentioned dragonflies needing food and their short flight seasons.... > Thanks!! > Would appreciate your responding to the whole group as I know other > places are interested in such endeavors!! > Kathy Biggs > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Note from Santa Barbara Zoo > Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 15:33:36 -0700 > From: Dean Noble > To: > > > > Dear Ms. Biggs: > > How difficult would it be for the Santa Barbara Zoo to build a temporary > walk-thru dragonfly pavilion exhibit? > > We envision it running May 1st through Labor Day weekend (or longer) in > 2011. > > Do you know of such a facility anywhere else? > > Cordially, > > > Dean Noble > > Director of Marketing > > Santa Barbara Zoo > > 500 Ninos Drive > > Santa Barbara, CA 93103 > > > > (805)962-5339 ext. 116 > > (805)962-3659 FAX > > dnoble AT sbzoo.org > > www.sbzoo.org > > > > > -- > California Dragonflies http://www.sonic.net/dragonfly > Southwest Dragonflies http://southwestdragonflies.net/ > Bigsnest Wildlife Pond http://www.bigsnestpond.net/ > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Kathy and Dave Biggs bigsnest AT sonic.net 707-823-2911 > 308 Bloomfield Rd. Sebastopol, CA 95472 > > dba Azalea Creek Publishing azalea AT sonic.net fax:707-823-2911 > http://www.sonic.net/~bigsnest/azaleacreekpublishing/ > > > > > > -- GMX DSL: Internet-, Telefon- und Handy-Flat ab 19,99 EUR/mtl. Bis zu 150 EUR Startguthaben inklusive! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Note from Santa Barbara Zoo]
From: ROBERT BOWLES <rbowles AT rogers.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 16:32:06 -0700 (PDT)

I would be interested in any information that anyone has in setting up a display like this on dragonfliles since this is something that I have wanted to do as an educational and learning experience in southern Ontario in Canada maybe part of our Orillia Dragonfly Festival that we hold every summer. � Thanks, Bob Bowles Orillia, Ontario � --- On Tue, 7/27/10, Kathy &/or Dave Biggs wrote: From: Kathy &/or Dave Biggs Subject: [Odonata-l] [Fwd: Note from Santa Barbara Zoo] To: "Odonata discussion group" Date: Tuesday, July 27, 2010, 7:11 PM Can anyone give Dean (see message below) any further info? I mentioned dragonflies needing food and their short flight seasons.... Thanks!! Would appreciate your responding to the whole group as I know other places are interested in such endeavors!! Kathy Biggs -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Note from Santa Barbara Zoo Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 15:33:36 -0700 From: Dean Noble To: Dear Ms. Biggs: � How difficult would it be for the Santa Barbara Zoo to build a temporary walk-thru dragonfly pavilion exhibit? � We envision it running May 1st through Labor Day weekend (or longer) in 2011. � Do you know of such a facility anywhere else?� � Cordially, � Dean Noble Director of Marketing Santa Barbara Zoo 500 Ninos Drive Santa Barbara, CA� 93103 � (805)962-5339 ext. 116 (805)962-3659 FAX dnoble AT sbzoo.org www.sbzoo.org � -- California Dragonflies http://www.sonic.net/dragonfly Southwest Dragonflies http://southwestdragonflies.net/ Bigsnest Wildlife Pond http://www.bigsnestpond.net/ ---------------------------------------------------------------- Kathy and Dave Biggs bigsnest AT sonic.net 707-823-2911 308 Bloomfield Rd. Sebastopol, CA 95472 dba Azalea Creek Publishing azalea AT sonic.net fax:707-823-2911 http://www.sonic.net/~bigsnest/azaleacreekpublishing/ -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l_______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: [Fwd: Note from Santa Barbara Zoo]
From: Kathy &/or Dave Biggs <bigsnest AT sonic.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 16:11:43 -0700

Can anyone give Dean (see message below) any further info? I mentioned dragonflies needing food and their short flight seasons.... Thanks!! Would appreciate your responding to the whole group as I know other places are interested in such endeavors!! Kathy Biggs -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Note from Santa Barbara Zoo Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 15:33:36 -0700 From: Dean Noble To: Dear Ms. Biggs: How difficult would it be for the Santa Barbara Zoo to build a temporary walk-thru dragonfly pavilion exhibit? We envision it running May 1st through Labor Day weekend (or longer) in 2011. Do you know of such a facility anywhere else? Cordially, Dean Noble Director of Marketing Santa Barbara Zoo 500 Ninos Drive Santa Barbara, CA 93103 (805)962-5339 ext. 116 (805)962-3659 FAX dnoble AT sbzoo.org www.sbzoo.org -- California Dragonflies http://www.sonic.net/dragonfly Southwest Dragonflies http://southwestdragonflies.net/ Bigsnest Wildlife Pond http://www.bigsnestpond.net/ ---------------------------------------------------------------- Kathy and Dave Biggs bigsnest AT sonic.net 707-823-2911 308 Bloomfield Rd. Sebastopol, CA 95472 dba Azalea Creek Publishing azalea AT sonic.net fax:707-823-2911 http://www.sonic.net/~bigsnest/azaleacreekpublishing/ _______________________________________________ Odonata-l mailing list Odonata-l AT listhost.ups.edu https://mailweb.ups.edu/mailman/listinfo/odonata-l
Subject: Columbus Dispatch coverage of GLOM
From: "Bob Glotzhober" <bglotzhober AT ohiohistory.org>
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 08:04:41 -0400

Well, it was two weeks after the fact, but the Columbus Dispatch covered the GLOM with about three-quarters of the front page on the Science/Insight section in yesterday's paper. Here is a link to the article http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/science/stories/2010/07/25/crouchin g-naturalist-hidden-dragonfly.html?sid=101 While they did not mention the DSA nor the GLOM specifically, it is a very nice article and a good PR piece for dragonflies and those of us in general who enjoy chasing, catching or photographing them. There is also a link to an online only slide show which shows more of the event. For those of you who could not attend, those of us from central Ohio were a little disappointed in what we were able to show off along the Big Darby and Little Darby creeks. Repeated heavy rains in June appear to have flushed a lot of dragonflies out of the system, and even with two weeks after the last heavy rain (usually enough for the system to recover) species numbers and diversity were distinctly lowered. Local ponds were still "hot" with lots of what central Ohioans would consider "common" species - with the nice exception of the uncommon Comet Darner, which most folks were able to see. I have not gotten a full species list yet, but I'm pretty sure observations included Dragonhunters, Black-shouldered Spinylegs, Royal River Cruisers and at least a couple of our little understood (hybrid?) river cruiser that haunts the large flat pools of the northern sections of the Big Darby. On Sunday I led one group of folks to Cedar Bog Nature Preserve, where everyone got good looks (and lots of photos taken) of our State Endangered Elfin Skimmers and Seepage Dancers. We also saw Eastern Red Damsels and other more common species. As we were walking out, we finally spotted two or three Gray Petaltails - one of which landed on each of our visitors from Illinois - though I don't think they stayed around long enough for any successful photos. A bit later, a few of us made another sweep of the boardwalk hoping for better views of the Gray Petaltails. We did not see them again - but several folks got photos of a very cooperative Great Blue Skimmer. Turns out, this was not only a new record from Cedar Bog - but also a new record for Champaign County, Ohio. A great end to an enjoyable weekend. Those who arrived early enough for Friday's field trip joined us on trip under cloudy skies to the Hocking Hills of southeastern Ohio. We had reasoned that the Tiger Spiketail flies in such heavy shade that clouds would not daunt them. We split into two groups and headed up two different small tributaries at Clear Creek Metro Parks. At least three people in each group were able to spot Tiger Spiketails flying over the streamlets before a deluge of rain washed us back to the vehicles. We also were able to recover three larvae, one of which we kept to show the rest of the folks. Friday evening we had a series of wonderful talks, preceded by a cookout of grilled Shish-ka-bobs, corn on the cob, French fries and other wonderful food - all from local Ohio sources. Ohio Odonata Society members Chad Edgar and Steve Chordas were the cooks extraordinaire. We were all grateful to not just the Ohio Odonata Society, but also the Metro Parks of Columbus and Franklin County who co-hosted, supplied the evening meeting place, and contributed naturalists Mac Albin and Andrew Boose who helped lead some of the field trips. Bob Glotzhober ==================== Robert C. Glotzhober 614/ 298-2054 Senior Curator, Natural History bglotzhober AT ohiohistory.org Ohio Historical Society Fax: 614/ 297-2546 1982 Velma Avenue Columbus, Ohio 43211-2497 Visit the website of the Ohio Historical Society at: www.ohiohistory.org and check out our online collections catalog. Visit the Ohio Odonata website at: http://www.marietta.edu/~odonata/index.html Celebrating 125 Years of serving Ohioans.

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