The New York Birding List

Birdingonthe.Net

Recent Postings from
The New York Birding List

Updated on Thursday, February 9 at 11:47 AM EST
The most recently received Mail is at the top.

9 Feb Black Vultures [Ardith Bondi ]
8 Feb Follow up to this morning's report of 2 C.Ravens at the Hampton Bays Water Authority property, Suffolk Co. [ROBERT ADAMO ]
8 Feb Saratoga Airport, Milton, NY [Dan ]
8 Feb Ravens hanging around New Rochelle [Andrew Block ]
8 Feb lark sparrow-no []
8 Feb Fwd: Western Grebe - Cayuga Co. [Tom Johnson ]
8 Feb Common Ravens- Hampton Bays, LI [Eileen Schwinn ]
7 Feb Snowy Owl Dust-up: Mea Culpa [Archer Midland ]
7 Feb Re: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it [Kyle Bardwell ]
7 Feb RFI - Barnacle Goose []
7 Feb Re: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it [Tom Kerr ]
7 Feb F. King Eider, Cackling Goose -YES- Glen Cove [Arie Gilbert ]
7 Feb RE: ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds [Patrick Santinello ]
7 Feb Re: ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds [Nadine Scarpa ]
7 Feb Back to birding: Jamaica Bay and Floyd Bennett Field [Sy Schiff ]
7 Feb Re: ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds [Jim Osterlund ]
7 Feb Re: AMNH RUHU-Retrix* Molt (NYC) [Peter Scully ]
7 Feb Monk Parakeets continue in Massapequa / Seaford, Nassau County [David Klauber ]
7 Feb RE: Of Owls, Birders, Photographers, Harry Potter, and the New York Giants [ROBERT ADAMO ]
7 Feb Lark Sparrow at Ditch Plains [Anthony Collerton ]
7 Feb Of Owls, Birders, Photographers, Harry Potter, and the New York Giants [Fred Baumgarten ]
7 Feb Re:Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it [Charles Scheffold ]
7 Feb RE: Bad behavior [Mark Barriger ]
7 Feb AMNH RUHU-Retrice Molt (NYC) [Peter Scully ]
7 Feb Pelham Bay Park, Bronx - Razorbill and others 2/6 [Richard Aracil ]
6 Feb Fwd: [MASSBIRD] Loblolly Cove residents upset [Jacob Drucker ]
6 Feb Re: Bad behavior [Ardith Bondi ]
6 Feb Re: Bad behavior [Michael Zablocky ]
6 Feb Syracuse RBA [Joseph Brin ]
6 Feb Black Vulture and Short-eared Owls at Shawangunk Grasslands NWR [Anthony Collerton ]
6 Feb Bad behavior [Isaac Grant ]
6 Feb Barrow's Goldeneye (YES) @ Jamaica Bay Wildlife Refuge Queens County... [Andrew Baksh ]
6 Feb RE: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it [Will Raup ]
6 Feb ADMIN: Courtesy and Rules ["Christopher T. Tessaglia-Hymes" ]
6 Feb Re: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it [Arie Gilbert ]
6 Feb Re:Bad behavior ["Peter W. Post" ]
6 Feb Re: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it [Jacob Drucker ]
6 Feb Re: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it [Felipe Pimentel ]
6 Feb Re: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it [Robert Lewis ]
6 Feb Re: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it []
6 Feb Turkey Vultures Suffolk County [Joel Horman ]
6 Feb Re: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it [Gregory Fisher ]
6 Feb Re: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it [Dan ]
6 Feb RE: ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds [Mark Barriger ]
6 Feb Re: bird disturbance and 'photographers' [Gregory Fisher ]
6 Feb bird disturbance and 'photographers' [Adam Welz ]
6 Feb Suggestion - How to Observe and Photograph Owls Guide [John Laver ]
6 Feb BirdCallsRadio Archives | Pete Dunne [Mardi Dickinson ]
6 Feb RE: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it [Gregory Fisher ]
6 Feb RE: ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds ["Kevin J. McGowan" ]
6 Feb Easy solution []
6 Feb [ebirdsnyc] Re: 'photographers' and disturbance [Michael Zablocky ]
6 Feb Re: ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds [Gregory Fisher ]
6 Feb Re: ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds [Jim Osterlund ]
6 Feb Re: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it [Felipe Pimentel ]
6 Feb Re: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it [Felipe Pimentel ]
6 Feb Re: ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds [Fred Baumgarten ]
6 Feb Re: Photographer problem at Breezy Point [Nadine Scarpa ]
6 Feb Re: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it [Nadine Scarpa ]
6 Feb a reality check [Diana Teta ]
6 Feb ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds [Peter Priolo ]
6 Feb RE: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it [Mark Barriger ]
6 Feb Lewis woodpecker an apology [Diana Teta ]
6 Feb Fwd: Photographer problem at Breezy Point [Jim Osterlund ]
6 Feb Jamaica Bay Wildlife Refuge (JBWR) This Morning (Queens Co.) [ken feustel ]
6 Feb Re: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it [Felipe Pimentel ]
6 Feb Re: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it [Dan ]
6 Feb Re: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it [Nadine Scarpa ]
6 Feb Re: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it [Seth Ausubel ]
6 Feb Re: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it [Robert Lewis ]
6 Feb Re: Photographer problem at Breezy Point [Nadine Scarpa ]
6 Feb Re: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it [Gregory Fisher ]
6 Feb ADMIN: Ethics Thread ["Christopher T. Tessaglia-Hymes" ]
6 Feb RE: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it [Lloyd Spitalnik ]
6 Feb Croton Point 2/5 [Matthew Wills ]
6 Feb Re: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it [Sam Stuart ]

Subject: Black Vultures
From: Ardith Bondi <ardbon AT earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 11:36:46 -0500

2 circling overhead just now in Pawling, NY. Ardith Bondi Sent from my iPhone -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Follow up to this morning's report of 2 C.Ravens at the Hampton Bays Water Authority property, Suffolk Co.
From: ROBERT ADAMO <radamo2 AT msn.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 21:55:40 -0500

Arriving mid-afternoon, I found both birds sitting side by side on the a fore-mentioned electric transmission tower, which runs along the LIRR tracks, located ~ 100 yards n/o the water tower. Cheers, Bob -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Saratoga Airport, Milton, NY
From: Dan <peterbilt.birder AT yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 17:39:30 -0500

02-08-12, 4:15pm to 5:35pm. 30f, wind SSW 6 mph. Feels like +26f. No raptors :( 2 Horned lark, in visitors parking lot grasses. 5 European starling. Dan Furbish peterbilt.birder AT yahoo.com -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Ravens hanging around New Rochelle
From: Andrew Block <ablock22168 AT yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 14:02:53 -0800

Had two of the Common Ravens I've been seeing at 10 Commerce Dr. in New Rochelle again yesterday flying in a northeast direction. They are always coming back and coming from more or less the south so are definately in the immediate area when roosting because I see them usually in the early to mid morning. I then today had one of them flying low over the Shoprite across the street from me along Cedar St. and then land in the lot by the dumpsters. The other may have been with it but not noticed. This is getting quite interesting:-) Andrew Andrew v. F. Block Consulting Naturalist/Wildlife Biologist 37 Tanglewylde Avenue Bronxville, Westchester Co., New York 10708-3131 Phone: 914-337-1229; Cell: 914-319-9701; Fax: 914-771-8036 -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: lark sparrow-no
From: <mikehigg AT optonline.net>
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 21:24:18 +0000

We visited the feeder on Ditch Plains Road in Montauk from 9:45 to 11:15 but did not see the lark sparrow. Best bird of the morning was a fox sparrow feeding at the base of the feeder.Mike Higgiston -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Fwd: Western Grebe - Cayuga Co.
From: Tom Johnson <tbj4 AT cornell.edu>
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 16:02:27 -0500

---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Tom Johnson Date: Wednesday, February 8, 2012 Subject: Western Grebe - Cayuga Co. To: Tom Johnson Cc: cayugabirds We were wrong. There are actually TWO Western Grebes here. On Wednesday, February 8, 2012, Tom Johnson wrote: > Hi, > Jay McGowan and I are looking at a Western Grebe at Twin Oaks Campground on the east side of Cayuga Lake north of Union Springs. The bird is with a big Aythya raft. > Cheers, > Tom > > -- > Tom Johnson > Hummelstown, PA > tbj4 AT cornell.edu > -- Tom Johnson Hummelstown, PA tbj4 AT cornell.edu -- Tom Johnson Hummelstown, PA tbj4 AT cornell.edu -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Common Ravens- Hampton Bays, LI
From: Eileen Schwinn <beachmed AT optonline.net>
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 10:01:45 -0500

A pair of Common Ravens were seen and heard this morning at the Hampton Bays Water Authority property - same location as last summer. One bird was seen calling from the high power wire tower along the train tracks, while the other was foraging on the grass near the water spigot. Eileen Schwinn Mike Higgiston Sent from my iPhone -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Snowy Owl Dust-up: Mea Culpa
From: Archer Midland <archerdanielsmidland AT gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 20:03:06 -0500

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen, I seem to have shot the Archduke Ferdinand. As the majority of my life-birding experience has involved walking around the abandoned fields and parks of Houston sans binoculars, guidebook or camera, this whole arena of birders vs. photographers, publicity vs privacy etc is all pretty new to me. There was enough open space and deficit of interest in Houston that I nor the birds were ever bothered in our encounters with each other. I now live in the largest and most densely populated city in these United states. I also have since joined the binoculars and guide crew, but not yet the listing crew or the photo crew. This was my first foray into the reporting crew, and I can't say it has been overwhelmingly successful. Maybe it is the fact of this city's density, the need to connect with others, the need to contrast steel and concrete with "wildlife" that has led to a greater participation in the birding community. One thing is certain, this participation has been largely based upon and shepherded by the Internet. Through eBird, listings, and the great work of bloggers such as Mr.Jett and Mr.Dorosh I have been introduced to a different sort of exploration and viewing, and been introduced to some of NYC's more amazing "natural" places, all the more special for their inherent paradox. Would I have explored the amazingly abandoned Calvert Vaux if not for a posting of a rare white-fronted goose? Probably not. Due to this, my being "brought up" in this community due to the internet, I felt obliged to return something and share the sighting of these owls. I would argue that indeed there are times where birds should not be reported to the larger community. If I were to espy a nesting pair of heath hens in Flushing Meadows, you can be certain I would go to the proper wildlife authorities instead of announcing their presence to the general public. Contrarily, we are now experiencing an unusually large irruption of Snowy Owls in the states, with hundreds and maybe even thousands of sightings being reported. Snowy Owls are also not an endangered species. In this context and light it didn't feel it wrong to post about the owls. In addition, I believe that there no longer exists any square mile of land anywhere in the tri-state area or perhaps in the world that can truly be called "wild." Nature at this point in history exists in a tenuous struggle with mankind at every level. If the goal is the conservation and expansion of spaces in which Nature takes a larger role, Man must first be enlisted to this purpose. In this light it would be in our best interest to show Snowy Owls to anyone who wants to see them, and indeed to those who could care less about them, for nothing educates like raw experience. To those who wish to keep the Owls to yourselves, you will literally not be missed, but to announce your owl-retention in public is tantalizingly close to the old-style biblical example of hypocrisy. If you engage others then spaces such as the Ridgewood reservoir and Four Sparrow Marsh will have more advocates instead of less. The context should be one of active as opposed to passive participation in these hybrid spaces. If it is your judgement that ignorant behavior is being practiced in the field you will feel better if you at least talk to the person. Perhaps in the future if sensitive birds are to be posted, there should be some precautions taken to make sure the educational experience is as enlightening as possible, to those in predator-photography mode, dog-running stick breaking mode and naive-with-open eyes child mode all. There needs to be a greater forum for these arenas of interaction. Now about those black rails I saw on the lower east side...... Archer M. Brooklyn, NY -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Re: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
From: Kyle Bardwell <ktbardwell AT yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 14:25:40 -0800

Hello, I wanted to share my view as an 18 year old freshman in college. I have been birding hard for 4 years now. I have met many people, and since we are talking about birdwatching, I have met many older people. There have been many times where I have said WOW what an amazing day of birding, and I get the response " you should have seen it 30 years ago." I think that if the birding community focuses all of its attention on parasitic bird photographers, in the future I will be the one telling a young kid " you should have seen it 30 years ago". Isn't there much bigger threats to bird populations than bird photographers. Are they the reason why birding is not as good as it used to be. I am only 18 but I dont think so. Correct me if I am wrong, but I remember reading a post about a threat to the Four Sparrow Marsh. There were maybe three replies to that email. I think that should get a whole lot more attention. I have won a few awards on researcg regarding populations of eastern screech owls in relation to urbanization. I talked to over three hundred third fourth and fifth graders about the inportance of biodiversity and birds in our area. I have also recieved an audubon award for a bird picture I took. What group am I in? Am i parasite? Am i a birdwatcher? I am just a fan of birds Kyle Bardwell From: Tom Kerr To: NYSBirds Sent: Tuesday, February 7, 2012 4:06 PM Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it Hi Everyone, Just to add my 2 cents on Owls. I was taught owls are not to be posted. I found a Saw-whet Owl once and returned with friends the next day. There were dozens of pellets at the base of the tree. This owl had been there for weeks. I never saw it again. 4 people were enough to chase it off in the dead of winter for good, and I learned my lesson. The only owl I have reported seeing to an RBA was a Snowy Owl on an inaccessible island visible from shore, hundreds of yards out. If I ask a birder I have just met about owls and they don't want to tell me where they are, that is just fine. I have asked and been told "no, its a secret." I have more respect for a birder that thinks about the bird's well-being first than one who wants to brag and show it off like a trophy. If you post the location of a roosting owl, or any bird for that matter, you have to share some responsibility for what happens to it, good or bad. If you know photographers are going to chase after it, or people are going to play calls at it all day long, you should probably take the bird's best interests into account and keep it to yourself. Use common sense. If this means new birders don't get to see it, then that's the way it has to be. I don't see anything wrong with having to earn your way into the birding community. On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 5:26 PM, Will Raup wrote: >Photographers are clearly muggles, but the birding community has its share of deatheaters. > > >Will Raup >Albany, NY > > > >Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it >From: jacobdrucker AT msn.com >Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 16:53:32 -0500 >CC: gregoryfisher AT sprintmail.com; peterbilt.birder AT yahoo.com; nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu >To: fpimentel AT verizon.net > > >When will Harry Potter fans get involved in this discussion? > > >Jacob > > >On Feb 6, 2012, at 4:45 PM, Felipe Pimentel wrote: > >Dan, >> >> >>The problem with your suggestion is the potential danger of creating a kind of "birding war" that would not help to solve any problem but may create new ones, including potentially violent encounters in the field that we must avoid. More productive could be the development of some flexible guidelines by some local groups (like the Audubon society) about what birders or bird photographers should do and not do in the field. Codes of ethics are by definition general moral principles. In my humble opinion the best policy is self-restraint and a good sense of personal responsibility. >> There are issues that will never be solved. For example, the issue of "disturbing" birds or approaching birds. Maybe for a particular birder being too close to a bird means 50 feet away while for others may be only 30. Massive birding by definition is a potential disturbance for many birds. When you have 60 bird watchers congregated on the same spot that could create be more disturbance than a single photographer taking pictures of the same bird even at a closer distance. >> What I am trying to say is that things cannot be one-dimensional and that practical common sense cannot be like the Ten Commandments (for those who are believers), written in stone. >>FP >> >>On Feb 6, 2012, at 3:39 PM, Gregory Fisher wrote: >> >> >>>Hey Dan, >>> >>> I am fine with that as long as you at least try to educate the individuals exhibiting the poor behavior. Some people are just ignorant and just need a little guidance. Yesterday's example by Adam is a prime example. You approach them, try to considerately educate them. When they resist and blow you off then communicate to others. Everyone deserves a fair shake. >>> >>>Greg >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>> >>>From: Dan >>>> >>>Sent: Feb 6, 2012 3:35 PM >>>> >>>To: Gregory Fisher >>>> >>>Cc: "" , NY BIRDS Cornell >>>> >>>Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it >>>> >>> >>>> >>>Let's all take photos of photographers that misbehave. Be SURE to post them to the appropriate listserve. If you see that photographer enter their vehicle, try to photograph the make and model and the license plate number too :) >>>> >>> >>>> >>>Good birding! >>>> >>> >>>> >>>Dan Furbish >>>> >>>peterbilt.birder AT yahoo.com >>>> >>> >>>-- >>> >>>NYSbirds-L List Info: >>>http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME >>>http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES >>>http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm >>> >>>ARCHIVES: >>>1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html >>>2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L >>>3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html >>> >>>Please submit your observations to eBird: >>>http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ >>> >>>-- >>> >> >>-- >>NYSbirds-L List Info: >>Welcome and Basics >>Rules and Information >>Subscribe, Configuration and Leave >>Archives: >>The Mail Archive >>Surfbirds >>BirdingOnThe.Net >>Please submit your observations to eBird! >>-- > >-- >NYSbirds-L List Info: >Welcome and Basics >Rules and Information >Subscribe, Configuration and Leave >Archives: >The Mail Archive >Surfbirds >BirdingOnThe.Net >Please submit your observations to eBird! >-- >-- >NYSbirds-L List Info: >Welcome and Basics >Rules and Information >Subscribe, Configuration and Leave >Archives: >The Mail Archive >Surfbirds >BirdingOnThe.Net >Please submit your observations to eBird! >-- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basics Rules and Information Subscribe, Configuration and Leave Archives: The Mail Archive Surfbirds BirdingOnThe.Net Please submit your observations to eBird! -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: RFI - Barnacle Goose
From: <fresha2411 AT aol.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 17:25:14 -0500

Does anybody know if the Barnacle Goose is still being seen in Eastport? If it's not, I'd still like to know of any recent sightings of it. Thanks -Doug Gochfeld -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Re: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
From: Tom Kerr <tyrannustyrannus AT gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 16:06:29 -0500

Hi Everyone, Just to add my 2 cents on Owls. I was taught owls are not to be posted. I found a Saw-whet Owl once and returned with friends the next day. There were dozens of pellets at the base of the tree. This owl had been there for weeks. I never saw it again. 4 people were enough to chase it off in the dead of winter for good, and I learned my lesson. The only owl I have reported seeing to an RBA was a Snowy Owl on an inaccessible island visible from shore, hundreds of yards out. If I ask a birder I have just met about owls and they don't want to tell me where they are, that is just fine. I have asked and been told "no, its a secret." I have more respect for a birder that thinks about the bird's well-being first than one who wants to brag and show it off like a trophy. If you post the location of a roosting owl, or any bird for that matter, you have to share some responsibility for what happens to it, good or bad. If you know photographers are going to chase after it, or people are going to play calls at it all day long, you should probably take the bird's best interests into account and keep it to yourself. Use common sense. If this means new birders don't get to see it, then that's the way it has to be. I don't see anything wrong with having to earn your way into the birding community. On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 5:26 PM, Will Raup wrote: > > Photographers are clearly muggles, but the birding community has its share > of deatheaters. > > > Will Raup > Albany, NY > > > ------------------------------ > Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't > get it > From: jacobdrucker AT msn.com > Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 16:53:32 -0500 > CC: gregoryfisher AT sprintmail.com; peterbilt.birder AT yahoo.com; > nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu > To: fpimentel AT verizon.net > > > When will Harry Potter fans get involved in this discussion? > > Jacob > > On Feb 6, 2012, at 4:45 PM, Felipe Pimentel wrote: > > Dan, > > The problem with your suggestion is the potential danger of creating a > kind of "birding war" that would not help to solve any problem but may > create new ones, including potentially violent encounters in the field that > we must avoid. More productive could be the development of some flexible > guidelines by some local groups (like the Audubon society) about what > birders or bird photographers should do and not do in the field. Codes of > ethics are by definition general moral principles. In my humble opinion the > best policy is self-restraint and a good sense of personal responsibility. > > There are issues that will never be solved. For example, the issue of > "disturbing" birds or approaching birds. Maybe for a particular birder > being too close to a bird means 50 feet away while for others may be only > 30. Massive birding by definition is a potential disturbance for many > birds. When you have 60 bird watchers congregated on the same spot that > could create be more disturbance than a single photographer taking pictures > of the same bird even at a closer distance. > > What I am trying to say is that things cannot be one-dimensional and > that practical common sense cannot be like the Ten Commandments (for those > who are believers), written in stone. > > FP > > > On Feb 6, 2012, at 3:39 PM, Gregory Fisher wrote: > > > Hey Dan, > > I am fine with that as long as you at least try to educate the > individuals exhibiting the poor behavior. Some people are just ignorant > and just need a little guidance. Yesterday's example by Adam is a prime > example. You approach them, try to considerately educate them. When they > resist and blow you off then communicate to others. Everyone deserves a > fair shake. > > Greg > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dan > > Sent: Feb 6, 2012 3:35 PM > > To: Gregory Fisher > > Cc: "" , NY BIRDS Cornell > > > Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't > get it > > > Let's all take photos of photographers that misbehave. Be SURE to post > them to the appropriate listserve. If you see that photographer enter their > vehicle, try to photograph the make and model and the license plate number > too :) > > > Good birding! > > > Dan Furbish > > peterbilt.birder AT yahoo.com > > > > -- > > NYSbirds-L List Info: > http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME > http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES > http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm > > ARCHIVES: > 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html > 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L > 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html > > Please submit your observations to eBird: > http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ > > -- > > > -- > *NYSbirds-L List Info:* > Welcome and Basics > Rules and Information > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > *Archives:* > The Mail Archive > Surfbirds > BirdingOnThe.Net > *Please submit your observations to **eBird* > *!* > -- > > > -- > *NYSbirds-L List Info:* > Welcome and Basics > Rules and Information > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > *Archives:* > The Mail Archive > Surfbirds > BirdingOnThe.Net > *Please submit your observations to **eBird* > *!* > -- > -- > *NYSbirds-L List Info:* > Welcome and Basics > Rules and Information > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > *Archives:* > The Mail Archive > Surfbirds > BirdingOnThe.Net > *Please submit your observations to **eBird* > *!* > -- > -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: F. King Eider, Cackling Goose -YES- Glen Cove
From: Arie Gilbert <ariegilbert AT optonline.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 16:09:56 -0500

Subject: RE: ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds
From: Patrick Santinello <patrick AT qprocorp.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 15:54:21 -0500

So to recap the final score in the Birding Super Bowl of Whining!!!! Indignant casual birder 14 Righteous photographers who cause no harm 9 Elitist birders who withhold sightings 7 Sensitive birders who see all sides 17 Pushy photographers who flush Owls 0 Silent lurkers who enjoy reading posts about birds 176,894 Can't we get back to birds?? Sorry but, is this subject not beaten to death at this point?..please accept my humorous suggestion to move on. Thanks. Patrick in Eastport From: bounce-39770075-13703895 AT list.cornell.edu [mailto:bounce-39770075-13703895 AT list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Nadine Scarpa Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 3:40 PM To: Jim Osterlund Cc: NYSBIRDS-L AT cornell.edu Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 1:58 PM, Jim Osterlund wrote: "Capitalism is the American way, and I'm all for it. So let's consider a capitalistic approach to the problem. Let's boycott, and advocate boycotting to others, the sale of those photos. Let's point out to the editors of publications we see with photos that cause us concern exactly what our concerns are and that our concerns might lead us to ceasing to subscribe. " The sale of WHICH photos? How on earth are you going to know which photos were taken "appropriately" (without causing a disturbance to the subject) and which were taken "inappropriately"? MANY photographers have amazingly huge lenses that allow for shots from long distances - so you would have no way to know how close a photo was taken. Now it appears you may be punishing ALL photographers for the actions of a few. If you know a specific NAME of a photographer who acts inappropriately while taking wildlife photos, go ahead and boycott them. However, many photographers sell their photos to other companies, so that wouldn't even work. There is no good way to do this, other than to try and educate the photographers and birders who WANT to be educated, and report the rest to the appropriate authorities. On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 1:58 PM, Jim Osterlund wrote: Response I got from NYSDEC echos that given to another who's posted here. It was basically advise to contact the appropriate ECO, but it included a discouraging addition; "Yes harassing wildlife is a violation of the ECL. Proving it and prosecuting it is another issue." So, we've heard anecdotes, opinions, bile, ridicule and humor, but little has been gained beyond exposing the old-school secret-society element. That has been useful to me personally. it has been my wont to accurately show locations with my posts and even to supplement the posts of others; I will discontinue that practice lest I incur reprisal for offending them. One aspect of the original problem has gone untouched, curiously enough, and goes to the distinction between "them" and "us". "We" are amateurs, hobbyists; even those of us with credentials are to be so considered because we don't get paid for it. When we get a particularly good sighting or photograph, we take it home and cherish it. "They" copyright and post their photos, offering them for sale. "We" try for the best view or shot we can get, the more to cherish; "they" try for the better shot to increase its value. "They" are at work; "we" are at play. Things like codes of ethics, consideration, good manners; these are for the likes of "us", and not for professionals at work. Capitalism is the American way, and I'm all for it. So let's consider a capitalistic approach to the problem. Let's boycott, and advocate boycotting to others, the sale of those photos. Let's point out to the editors of publications we see with photos that cause us concern exactly what our concerns are and that our concerns might lead us to ceasing to subscribe. Let word of this spread amongst "them"; we saw in an anecdote posted earlier that a photographer doing wrong responded immediately and correctly - to word from another photographer. -- NYSbirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basics Rules and Information Subscribe, Configuration and Leave Archives: The Mail Archive Surfbirds BirdingOnThe.Net Please submit your observations to eBird! -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basics Rules and Information Subscribe, Configuration and Leave Archives: The Mail Archive Surfbirds BirdingOnThe.Net Please submit your observations to eBird! -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Re: ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds
From: Nadine Scarpa <nadinescarpahomes AT gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 15:39:54 -0500

On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 1:58 PM, Jim Osterlund wrote: "Capitalism is the American way, and I'm all for it. So let's consider a capitalistic approach to the problem. Let's boycott, and advocate boycotting to others, the sale of those photos. Let's point out to the editors of publications we see with photos that cause us concern exactly what our concerns are and that our concerns might lead us to ceasing to subscribe. " The sale of WHICH photos? How on earth are you going to know which photos were taken "appropriately" (without causing a disturbance to the subject) and which were taken "inappropriately"? MANY photographers have amazingly huge lenses that allow for shots from long distances - so you would have no way to know how close a photo was taken. Now it appears you may be punishing ALL photographers for the actions of a few. If you know a specific NAME of a photographer who acts inappropriately while taking wildlife photos, go ahead and boycott them. However, many photographers sell their photos to other companies, so that wouldn't even work. There is no good way to do this, other than to try and educate the photographers and birders who WANT to be educated, and report the rest to the appropriate authorities. On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 1:58 PM, Jim Osterlund wrote: > Response I got from NYSDEC echos that given to another who's posted here. > It was basically advise to contact the appropriate ECO, but it included a > discouraging addition; "Yes harassing wildlife is a violation of the > ECL. Proving it and prosecuting it is another issue." > > So, we've heard anecdotes, opinions, bile, ridicule and humor, but little > has been gained beyond exposing the old-school secret-society element. > That has been useful to me personally. it has been my wont to accurately > show locations with my posts and even to supplement the posts of others; I > will discontinue that practice lest I incur reprisal for offending them. > > One aspect of the original problem has gone untouched, curiously enough, > and goes to the distinction between "them" and "us". "We" are amateurs, > hobbyists; even those of us with credentials are to be so considered > because we don't get paid for it. When we get a particularly good sighting > or photograph, we take it home and cherish it. "They" copyright and post > their photos, offering them for sale. "We" try for the best view or shot > we can get, the more to cherish; "they" try for the better shot to > increase its value. "They" are at work; "we" are at play. Things like > codes of ethics, consideration, good manners; these are for the likes of > "us", and not for professionals at work. > > Capitalism is the American way, and I'm all for it. So let's consider a > capitalistic approach to the problem. Let's boycott, and advocate > boycotting to others, the sale of those photos. Let's point out to the > editors of publications we see with photos that cause us concern exactly > what our concerns are and that our concerns might lead us to ceasing to > subscribe. Let word of this spread amongst "them"; we saw in an anecdote > posted earlier that a photographer doing wrong responded immediately and > correctly - to word from another photographer. > -- > *NYSbirds-L List Info:* > Welcome and Basics > Rules and Information > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > *Archives:* > The Mail Archive > Surfbirds > BirdingOnThe.Net > *Please submit your observations to **eBird* > *!* > -- > -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Back to birding: Jamaica Bay and Floyd Bennett Field
From: Sy Schiff <icterus AT optonline.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 14:43:20 -0500

Jamaica Bay Wildlife Refuge 7 February Joe Giunta and I (Sy Schiff) arrived at the West Pond at 7:05 AM to find Debbie Martin focused on the BARROW'S GOLDENEYE. Soon joined by others for great looks, the Goldeneyes took off at 7:18. There had been at least 50 COMMON GOLDENEYES on the pond with a dozen still remaining. Walking back to the car, we found our FOS RED-WINGED BLACKBIRD singing from the top of a tree. Floyd Bennett Field The target Bluebird Box had an adult AMERICAN KESTREL perched on it, but the Northern Shrike was not found. Extensive looks from along the shore (Archery and Fisherman Fields) failed to locate the Eurasian Wigeon among the 100+ AMERICAN WIGEON scattered throughout. While driving about we saw our FOS COMMON GRACKLE. Sy -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Re: ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds
From: Jim Osterlund <jamesost AT optonline.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 13:58:10 -0500

Response I got from NYSDEC echos that given to another who's posted here. It was basically advise to contact the appropriate ECO, but it included a discouraging addition; "Yes harassing wildlife is a violation of the ECL. Proving it and prosecuting it is another issue." So, we've heard anecdotes, opinions, bile, ridicule and humor, but little has been gained beyond exposing the old-school secret-society element. That has been useful to me personally. it has been my wont to accurately show locations with my posts and even to supplement the posts of others; I will discontinue that practice lest I incur reprisal for offending them. One aspect of the original problem has gone untouched, curiously enough, and goes to the distinction between "them" and "us". "We" are amateurs, hobbyists; even those of us with credentials are to be so considered because we don't get paid for it. When we get a particularly good sighting or photograph, we take it home and cherish it. "They" copyright and post their photos, offering them for sale. "We" try for the best view or shot we can get, the more to cherish; "they" try for the better shot to increase its value. "They" are at work; "we" are at play. Things like codes of ethics, consideration, good manners; these are for the likes of "us", and not for professionals at work. Capitalism is the American way, and I'm all for it. So let's consider a capitalistic approach to the problem. Let's boycott, and advocate boycotting to others, the sale of those photos. Let's point out to the editors of publications we see with photos that cause us concern exactly what our concerns are and that our concerns might lead us to ceasing to subscribe. Let word of this spread amongst "them"; we saw in an anecdote posted earlier that a photographer doing wrong responded immediately and correctly - to word from another photographer. -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Re: AMNH RUHU-Retrix* Molt (NYC)
From: Peter Scully <peterandrewscullyii AT yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 09:23:10 -0800

Actually, looks like the RUHU dropped R1, R2, and R5 on the left side, leaving R3 and R4. R2 is gone, contrary to the observation made in my previous post. -Peter --- On Tue, 2/7/12, Peter Scully wrote: From: Peter Scully Subject: [nysbirds-l] AMNH RUHU-Retrice Molt (NYC) To: nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu Date: Tuesday, February 7, 2012, 3:53 AM The Rufous Hummingbird at the AMNH has dropped the majority of its retrices, including both R1s. The perched bird offers excellent views of the R2s, whether the tail is spread or not. An interesting look: www.flickr.com/photos/scullybirds/ -- NYSbirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basics Rules and Information Subscribe, Configuration and Leave Archives: The Mail Archive Surfbirds BirdingOnThe.Net Please submit your observations to eBird! -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Monk Parakeets continue in Massapequa / Seaford, Nassau County
From: David Klauber <davehawkowl AT msn.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 12:20:51 -0500

I hadn't seen the parakeets for a while, but around 11:30 this morning there were 5 Monk Parakeets at the large stick nest. This is on the west side of Hicksville Road / Route 107, about 1/2 mile south of the Southern State Parkway exit, on the west side of the road just before a Gulf station. The entrance hole now seems to have moved to the south side -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: RE: Of Owls, Birders, Photographers, Harry Potter, and the New York Giants
From: ROBERT ADAMO <radamo2 AT msn.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 11:54:08 -0500

Can I get an "Amen"? Cheers,Bob Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 08:57:02 -0500 Subject: [nysbirds-l] Of Owls, Birders, Photographers, Harry Potter, and the New York Giants From: fredbee.eater AT gmail.com To: NYSBirds-L AT cornell.edu All: I have been birding for exactly 1,396 years, give or take a few. I have chased birds on nine continents, including Atlantis. I have shaken hands (webbed feet) with Dodos (birds, that is), dined on turtle soup with Audubon, and been burned at the stake for practicing wishcraft to make birds appear. I told the town elders it was only spishing, but hey, it was 1642, and what did they know? After all that, I can honestly say I have no idea any more.what this discussion is all about. But it is the most entertaining, testosterone-fueled ego-contest since the Super Bowl, all of two days ago. I say let's nuke the owls, ourselves, and everything else, except the rock doves, er, pigeons. We all know they're going to inherit the earth anyway. In other news...in the past three days I have heard Northern Cardinals, Black-capped Chickadees, and Song Sparrows all singing. This is unremarkable in and of itself for early February, but only feels weirder because of the March-April weather. P.S. Did you hear that Daniel Radcliffe was frequently drunk on the set of the HP movies? He darn well better not have mistreated poor Hedwig. Maybe that's really him (Hedwig, not Harry) out on those dunes.... P.P.S. I'm taking bets on whether this e-mail gets in before the listserve owner mercifully pulls the plug. Caractacus Pott Professional Curmudgeon aka Fred Baumgarten Sharon, CT/Westchester, NY And Points In-Between fredbee.eater AT gmail.com -- NYSbirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basics Rules and Information Subscribe, Configuration and Leave Archives: The Mail Archive Surfbirds BirdingOnThe.Net Please submit your observations to eBird! -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Lark Sparrow at Ditch Plains
From: Anthony Collerton <icollerton AT gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 08:53:27 -0500

Still present at 8:53am Sent from my iPhone -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Of Owls, Birders, Photographers, Harry Potter, and the New York Giants
From: Fred Baumgarten <fredbee.eater AT gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 08:57:02 -0500

All: I have been birding for exactly 1,396 years, give or take a few. I have chased birds on nine continents, including Atlantis. I have shaken hands (webbed feet) with Dodos (birds, that is), dined on turtle soup with Audubon, and been burned at the stake for practicing wishcraft to make birds appear. I told the town elders it was only spishing, but hey, it was 1642, and what did they know? After all that, I can honestly say I have no idea any more.what this discussion is all about. But it is the most entertaining, testosterone-fueled ego-contest since the Super Bowl, all of two days ago. I say let's nuke the owls, ourselves, and everything else, except the rock doves, er, pigeons. We all know they're going to inherit the earth anyway. In other news...in the past three days I have heard Northern Cardinals, Black-capped Chickadees, and Song Sparrows all singing. This is unremarkable in and of itself for early February, but only feels weirder because of the March-April weather. P.S. Did you hear that Daniel Radcliffe was frequently drunk on the set of the HP movies? He darn well better not have mistreated poor Hedwig. Maybe that's really him (Hedwig, not Harry) out on those dunes.... P.P.S. I'm taking bets on whether this e-mail gets in before the listserve owner mercifully pulls the plug. Caractacus Pott Professional Curmudgeon aka Fred Baumgarten Sharon, CT/Westchester, NY And Points In-Between fredbee.eater AT gmail.com -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Re:Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
From: Charles Scheffold <cs AT sid6581.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 08:19:56 -0500

I like to watch birds. I also like to photograph them. I shoot with an 800mm lens and quite often a 1.4x or 2x teleconverter. Would I like to be closer? Yes of course. But my mommy taught me manners and I know how to behave myself. I saw a Snowy Owl this year for the first time in my life, and it was magnificent. If not for this list, I never would have experienced such beauty. I've had many great locations shared with me by both birders and photographers alike. An idiot is an idiot. But a misinformed person can always be informed. Does it really matter if they have a camera or a scope? I'll leave that up to you. Charles Scheffold http://lenselements.com -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: RE: Bad behavior
From: Mark Barriger <mark8bud8 AT hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 08:18:59 -0500

Nobody is saying to go out and harass every bird EXCEPT owls. Yes, you can flush a Yellow-rump, a Junco, sparrows, and just about every bird in our guides. But saying that flushing these birds and birders/photographers chasing a Snowy Owl up and down a beach is the same is wrong. Reading a quote like " Is that really a huge deal if a Snowy Owl flies a few hundred yards down the beach? I really do not think so and I have no clue why so many people think that. These birds did just fly hundreds of miles south didn't they?" First of all when birders/photographers flush a Snowy Owl down the beach a few hundred yards they don't call it a day and they don't leave. Most of them walk the beach and again get to close and flush it again. I have seen this sort of behavior go on for hours and if you don't see an issue with this then shame on you. Snowy Owls don't fly hundreds of miles to go on a vacation and usually by the time they get this far south they're all beat up and lacking food, water, and rest. When you get a chance talk to someone who specializes in owl rehabilitation and they will tell you that a good deal of these Snowy Owls will never see the tundra again. I have seen at least 20 Snowy Owls and I have never seen one actively hunting. Why is that? Find a Snowy Owl, set up a chair or if you can sit in your car, and wait till dusk. Most of the time when I see Snowy Owls hunting its well after dusk. Thats why some people (including myself) do take issue with people flushing them during the day because most of the time they're just trying to rest. I think that birders cause significantly more disturbance than photographers do. Do we all really think that when 30 people are lined up (even at a reasonable distance) from a Snowy Owl that you are not "on its mind", that it is not extremely aware of your presents? Of course we are on his mind and nobody is arguing that BUT I have been to places with large groups of people watching Snowy Owls and if you stand back at a reasonable distance they never flush and I have seen plenty close they're eyes and rest. Just because the owl is aware of our presence doesn't mean that we are doing harm to the bird. Now even though the photographers move up slowly you'll see an alert owl who focuses in on them and eventually gets up and flies. I think that birders cause significantly more disturbance than photographers do. Well then in your 30 years of birding you must have missed a bunch because most photographers go to great lengths to get "the shot". Some have the patience to wait for good pictures but plenty need to cross that line to do whatever they have to in order to fill that memory card, get home, and upload all those photos. I have never seen a birder bring bait to bring an owl in closer. I have never seen a birder climb a tree and cut branches to get a better picture of that roosting owl. Most photographers will lie or stand still and quietly most of the time. Maybe when it comes to other bird species but they have little patience to wait for owls. Normally you'll see them pull up, hop out of the car, set up the camera, and just start walking right towards the resting owl. Rarely will they be standing back with the rest of the clear headed birders watching from a safe distance. The Breezy owls will have to deal with dogs, people and loads of 4x4's on the beach. They will do their best to stay away from the people and when they feel disturbed they will fly. That is about the best they can do. Your absolutely right on this one. Most Snowy Owls that fly south have plenty to deal with. Whether it's dog walkers, joggers, atv's, cars, and of course us birders/photographers. Thats why we need to make sure that we are doing our part to not add any extra stress to them. Mark Barriger Wallingford, CT From: hosesbroadbill AT hotmail.com To: nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu Subject: [nysbirds-l] Bad behavior Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 19:31:10 -0500 Here is my two cents based off of over 30 years of birding in this state. I find this entire discussion absurd and think that everyone has pretty much missed the real point. I have no clue why people get so up in arms about flushing owls. Let me preface this by saying that some of the people that I am about to criticize are people that I bird with frequently, people that I have known for over 20 years, people that have been to my home and my wedding. I find it all extremely contradictory and hypocritical . The same people that are finger pointing and bad mouthing and video taping and planning secret groups because a few people get too close to a bird, have no problem walking through the east pond and fulshing hundreds if not thousands of migratory shorebirds that are desparately trying to refuel for their huge migration south. Is is possible to walk the east pond without flushing loads of birds? Does any one care if they flush a flock of peeps, dowitchers or yellow legs or even give at a second thought while they are searching for a Godwit or Stint? They have no probelm walking through a field in the fall and flushing hordes of birds in the hopes that a Clay Colored or Lark Sparrow be found amongst the hordes of Savannah Sparrows and Song Sparrows and more common species. Can anyone see a sparrow in NY without flushing it first? These same people have no problem pshing in any number of song birds during migration. Doesn't that disturb these birds more than an occasional flush by a photographer or flash? The examples are endless. What birder has not flushed flock after flock of Dunlin and Sanderling while walking on the beach at Breezy and Jones Beach looking for one of those Snowy Owls? What birder has not crashed through median strip at Jones Beach looking for Crossbills or Sawwhets and not flushed Yellowrumps and Juncos, etc. What birder has not walked the trail out to Breezy and not flushed numerous Yellowrupms and Cardinals and blackbirds. What birder has not walked near a pond and not had every duck swim to the other side of it? What birder has not flushed loads of Ring-billed and Herring Gulls on the beach while trying to find a Glaucous or Iceland Gull? What birder has not walked through central park and not flushed a Hermit thrush or Ovenbird? I have never gone to Point Lookout and seen the Harlequin Ducks without them continuously swimming away from me. Maybe they just don't like me but I think that they are obviously wary of people and do their best to keep their distance. The obvious answer to all of my questions is that it is impossible to be a birder and to not continuously disturb birds. Do any of us really think that everytime we walk on a beach or thrugh the woods or in a field that we are not disturbing the birds that are trying to see? I am not in any way condoning someone who is purposely flushing an owl or approaching unnecessarily close. But we need to keep in perspective what it is that all of us (certainly including myself) are doing every time we enter the field? I do not think that you can randolmly decide what birds are OK to disturb and which ones are not. That seems to be an absurd thing to do. All of us, photgraphers and birders alike need to be aware of our impact on our surroundings and stop pointing the fingers at others. And now for what may get me lynched. I think that birders cause significantly more disturbance than photographers do. Do we all really think that when 30 people are lined up (even at a reasonable distance) from a Snowy Owl that you are not "on its mind", that it is not extremely aware of your presence? Do you think that it feels comfortable hunting while a crowd is present? I don't. At least most photographers will make a reasonable effort to slowly approach these birds so that they can actually not make it fly. That is how you get a good picture isn't it? These birds are comming to public places and are surrounded by dogs and loads of people. When they are bothered enough, they will fly. Is that really a huge deal if a Snowy Owl flies a few hundred yards down the beach? I really do not think so and I have no clue why so many people think that. These birds did just fly hundereds of miles south didn't they? I would argue that the continued presence of a crowd of birders in a field or a swamp or the beach has a much greater negative impact on the birds than people may think. I have seen at least 20 Snowy Owls and I have never seen one actively hunting. Why is that? Probably because I was there and wether or not I approached it too closely still did not mean that I was not disturbing the bird. These birds are choosing to or have been forced to winter in what is unfortunately a public area. The Breezy owls will have to deal with dogs, people and loads of 4x4's on the beach. They will do their best to stay away from the people and when they feel distrubed they will fly. That is about the best they can do. My experience has been that if you are birding anywhere (and I have lots of experience having birdered in every continent other than Antarctica) and you are still and quiet then you will see more birds. The birds seem to not be disturbed as much and will approach extremely close without being alarmed or flushing. Ever see a bird and it flies as soon as you pick up your binoucluars to look at it? You disturbed it by your movements. Most photoagraphers will lie or stand still and quitely most of the time. In my opinion that disturbs the birds less than a group of birders talking and snapping pictures. So what does that mean for birders vs. photographers. Well it means nothing. Everyone always thinks that someone else is doing more harm than they are. I think you look quickly and then leave and that is what will cause the least disturbance to these birds. I think that 30 people that are at a reasonable distance does a lot more harm than everyone is talking about. My vote is that birders are doing more harm than the photograhers. And we all need to look in the mirror a little bit more before we point the finger toward others. -- NYSbirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basics Rules and Information Subscribe, Configuration and Leave Archives: The Mail Archive Surfbirds BirdingOnThe.Net Please submit your observations to eBird! -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: AMNH RUHU-Retrice Molt (NYC)
From: Peter Scully <peterandrewscullyii AT yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 04:53:25 -0800

The Rufous Hummingbird at the AMNH has dropped the majority of its retrices, including both R1s. The perched bird offers excellent views of the R2s, whether the tail is spread or not. An interesting look: www.flickr.com/photos/scullybirds/ -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Pelham Bay Park, Bronx - Razorbill and others 2/6
From: Richard Aracil <raptorara AT hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 04:50:01 +0000

Hi All, Had a great day in the Turtle Cove/Hunter Island section for the park. Highlights included a Razorbill seen well east of Twin Island, a flock of 20+ purple sandpipers on the rocks off Glen Island, 2 Long-Tailed Ducks and a Great Cormorant seen distantly off Twin and a Bald Eagle over the Orchard Beach Lagoon. Good Birding, Richard Aracil -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Fwd: [MASSBIRD] Loblolly Cove residents upset
From: Jacob Drucker <jacobdrucker AT msn.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 22:01:08 -0500

Another pressing topic.... dare I forward this email? --JD Begin forwarded message: > From: Ian Lynch > Date: February 6, 2012 9:17:17 PM EST > To: MassBird > Subject: [MASSBIRD] Loblolly Cove residents upset > Reply-To: Ian Lynch > > I went to Loblolly Cove in Rockport this morning in search of the Spotted Towhee. I wasn't there long before a neighbor driving by stopped to tell the other birder and me that the residents are getting tired of the birders and their inconsiderate behavior, which includes rutted roads and torn up grass. I asked him specifically how I could act considerately today while there. He half-jokingly suggested leaving. I thought about the fact that although I could make claims to a public space that my "rights" did not trump his and so I did the considerate thing and left. It is only a tick on a list and our excessive attention may even harm the bird in the long run and certainly is inconveniencing the neighborhood. > > Ian Lynch > Revianlynch AT gmail.com > Brimfield, MA > > Sent from my iPhone > -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Re: Bad behavior
From: Ardith Bondi <ardbon AT earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 22:06:10 -0500

Brilliant, Isaac. Thank you. Ardith Bondi bird photographer On 2/6/12 7:31 PM, Isaac Grant wrote: > Here is my two cents based off of over 30 years of birding in this > state. I find this entire discussion absurd and think that everyone has > pretty much missed the real point. I have no clue why people get so up > in arms about flushing owls. Let me preface this by saying that some of > the people that I am about to criticize are people that I bird with > frequently, people that I have known for over 20 years, people that have > been to my home and my wedding. I find it all extremely contradictory > and hypocritical . > > The same people that are finger pointing and bad mouthing and video > taping and planning secret groups because a few people get too close to > a bird, have no problem walking through the east pond and fulshing > hundreds if not thousands of migratory shorebirds that are desparately > trying to refuel for their huge migration south. Is is possible to walk > the east pond without flushing loads of birds? Does any one care if they > flush a flock of peeps, dowitchers or yellow legs or even give at a > second thought while they are searching for a Godwit or Stint? They have > no probelm walking through a field in the fall and flushing hordes of > birds in the hopes that a Clay Colored or Lark Sparrow be found amongst > the hordes of Savannah Sparrows and Song Sparrows and more common > species. Can anyone see a sparrow in NY without flushing it first? These > same people have no problem pshing in any number of song birds during > migration. Doesn't that disturb these birds more than an occasional > flush by a photographer or flash? The examples are endless. What birder > has not flushed flock after flock of Dunlin and Sanderling while walking > on the beach at Breezy and Jones Beach looking for one of those Snowy > Owls? What birder has not crashed through median strip at Jones Beach > looking for Crossbills or Sawwhets and not flushed Yellowrumps and > Juncos, etc. What birder has not walked the trail out to Breezy and not > flushed numerous Yellowrupms and Cardinals and blackbirds. What birder > has not walked near a pond and not had every duck swim to the other side > of it? What birder has not flushed loads of Ring-billed and Herring > Gulls on the beach while trying to find a Glaucous or Iceland Gull? What > birder has not walked through central park and not flushed a Hermit > thrush or Ovenbird? I have never gone to Point Lookout and seen the > Harlequin Ducks without them continuously swimming away from me. Maybe > they just don't like me but I think that they are obviously wary of > people and do their best to keep their distance. > > The obvious answer to all of my questions is that it is impossible to be > a birder and to not continuously disturb birds. Do any of us really > think that everytime we walk on a beach or thrugh the woods or in a > field that we are not disturbing the birds that are trying to see? I am > not in any way condoning someone who is purposely flushing an owl or > approaching unnecessarily close. But we need to keep in perspective what > it is that all of us (certainly including myself) are doing every time > we enter the field? I do not think that you can randolmly decide what > birds are OK to disturb and which ones are not. That seems to be an > absurd thing to do. All of us, photgraphers and birders alike need to be > aware of our impact on our surroundings and stop pointing the fingers at > others. > > And now for what may get me lynched. I think that birders cause > significantly more disturbance than photographers do. Do we all really > think that when 30 people are lined up (even at a reasonable distance) > from a Snowy Owl that you are not "on its mind", that it is not > extremely aware of your presence? Do you think that it feels comfortable > hunting while a crowd is present? I don't. At least most photographers > will make a reasonable effort to slowly approach these birds so that > they can actually not make it fly. That is how you get a good picture > isn't it? These birds are comming to public places and are surrounded by > dogs and loads of people. When they are bothered enough, they will fly. > Is that really a huge deal if a Snowy Owl flies a few hundred yards down > the beach? I really do not think so and I have no clue why so many > people think that. These birds did just fly hundereds of miles south > didn't they? I would argue that the continued presence of a crowd of > birders in a field or a swamp or the beach has a much greater negative > impact on the birds than people may think. I have seen at least 20 Snowy > Owls and I have never seen one actively hunting. Why is that? Probably > because I was there and wether or not I approached it too closely still > did not mean that I was not disturbing the bird. These birds are > choosing to or have been forced to winter in what is unfortunately a > public area. The Breezy owls will have to deal with dogs, people and > loads of 4x4's on the beach. They will do their best to stay away from > the people and when they feel distrubed they will fly. That is about the > best they can do. My experience has been that if you are birding > anywhere (and I have lots of experience having birdered in every > continent other than Antarctica) and you are still and quiet then you > will see more birds. The birds seem to not be disturbed as much and will > approach extremely close without being alarmed or flushing. Ever see a > bird and it flies as soon as you pick up your binoucluars to look at it? > You disturbed it by your movements. Most photoagraphers will lie or > stand still and quitely most of the time. In my opinion that disturbs > the birds less than a group of birders talking and snapping pictures. > > So what does that mean for birders vs. photographers. Well it means > nothing. Everyone always thinks that someone else is doing more harm > than they are. I think you look quickly and then leave and that is what > will cause the least disturbance to these birds. I think that 30 people > that are at a reasonable distance does a lot more harm than everyone is > talking about. My vote is that birders are doing more harm than the > photograhers. And we all need to look in the mirror a little bit more > before we point the finger toward others. > -- > *NYSbirds-L List Info:* > Welcome and Basics > Rules and Information > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > > *Archives:* > The Mail Archive > > Surfbirds > BirdingOnThe.Net > *Please submit your observations to **eBird* > *!* > -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Re: Bad behavior
From: Michael Zablocky <mszablocky AT me.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 20:45:41 -0500

Bravo, Isaac! Phil Jeffrey threw me off ebirds for my heretical piece earlier today. I'm happy to hear another birder criticize behavior that really needs to be addressed. Not to be misunderstood, if hobbyists want to spend insane sums of money, absolutely. I endorse capitalism, these sales are great for our economy. But I agree with you, Isaac, let's not be high and mighty and condemn others in the pursuit of their hobbies. It's extremely hypocritical to bemoan the waste of gasoline used by the 4X4s, or snow mobile enthusiasts, or ATV's. I still would like to see some numbers on how much gasoline and aircraft fuel is burned up by birding enthusiasts. Again, this is a personal choice, and people are free to make it. But it's like what Edward Abbey said, that there is a certain group who are loving nature to death. The crowds of birders and photographers that descend on rarities made me just stop going altogether. It ruins the experience of being outdoors, for me at least. I have seen so much bad, and yes, crazy, behavior in the field that I made some personal decisions concerning my birding habits. And they are my decisions. Others can make up their own minds. I remember one Fall many years ago at Cape May. There must have been more than twenty birders crammed onto a platform that really only had room for about five. We were were watching a Common Snipe at fairly close range. The bird was clearly terrified. It was backing up against the reeds, but they were too dense for it to get through. It couldn't fly forward because it was ringed by birders, who by the way, were loud and shoving at one another. A short, very rude woman demanded to use my scope, to 'get her good look' at this terrified animal. I wasn't able to shorten my scope for her because of the crowd, so she spent the next five minutes abusing me about not being considerate of short people. A total stranger mind you, complaining about my choice, of my personal equipment. I shouldered my scope and pushed through the crowd and left in disgust. Unfortunately, scenes like this were not uncommon throughout my fifteen years of birding. So, last thoughts before I make it two for two and Chris knocks me off this list also. People, do a reality check. Birding and bird photography are not our vocations. We are not, mostly, naturalists or scientists. I'm always amused how quickly people I've known go from buying their first digital camera to billing themselves as 'wildlife photographers' on their homemade websites. I really believe the internet has made it too easy for a lot of us to immerse ourselves in this 'outdoor' fantasy world we create. When we observe birds it's exactly the uncertainty principle. Our mere looking at a bird alters its behavior. These creatures are far more aware of us than we are of them. We kid ourselves into thinking we see them acting naturally. Thanks for posting, Isaac. It was a very good read! And please people, stop obsessing about the owls. It's weird already. This is New York City, if it gets to be to much for them they can always leave. To paraphrase George Thouroughgood, "I bird alone!" Michael Zablocky On Feb 6, 2012, at 7:31 PM, Isaac Grant wrote: > Here is my two cents based off of over 30 years of birding in this state. I find this entire discussion absurd and think that everyone has pretty much missed the real point. I have no clue why people get so up in arms about flushing owls. Let me preface this by saying that some of the people that I am about to criticize are people that I bird with frequently, people that I have known for over 20 years, people that have been to my home and my wedding. I find it all extremely contradictory and hypocritical . > > The same people that are finger pointing and bad mouthing and video taping and planning secret groups because a few people get too close to a bird, have no problem walking through the east pond and fulshing hundreds if not thousands of migratory shorebirds that are desparately trying to refuel for their huge migration south. Is is possible to walk the east pond without flushing loads of birds? Does any one care if they flush a flock of peeps, dowitchers or yellow legs or even give at a second thought while they are searching for a Godwit or Stint? They have no probelm walking through a field in the fall and flushing hordes of birds in the hopes that a Clay Colored or Lark Sparrow be found amongst the hordes of Savannah Sparrows and Song Sparrows and more common species. Can anyone see a sparrow in NY without flushing it first? These same people have no problem pshing in any number of song birds during migration. Doesn't that disturb these birds more than an occasional flush by a photographer or flash? The examples are endless. What birder has not flushed flock after flock of Dunlin and Sanderling while walking on the beach at Breezy and Jones Beach looking for one of those Snowy Owls? What birder has not crashed through median strip at Jones Beach looking for Crossbills or Sawwhets and not flushed Yellowrumps and Juncos, etc. What birder has not walked the trail out to Breezy and not flushed numerous Yellowrupms and Cardinals and blackbirds. What birder has not walked near a pond and not had every duck swim to the other side of it? What birder has not flushed loads of Ring-billed and Herring Gulls on the beach while trying to find a Glaucous or Iceland Gull? What birder has not walked through central park and not flushed a Hermit thrush or Ovenbird? I have never gone to Point Lookout and seen the Harlequin Ducks without them continuously swimming away from me. Maybe they just don't like me but I think that they are obviously wary of people and do their best to keep their distance. > > The obvious answer to all of my questions is that it is impossible to be a birder and to not continuously disturb birds. Do any of us really think that everytime we walk on a beach or thrugh the woods or in a field that we are not disturbing the birds that are trying to see? I am not in any way condoning someone who is purposely flushing an owl or approaching unnecessarily close. But we need to keep in perspective what it is that all of us (certainly including myself) are doing every time we enter the field? I do not think that you can randolmly decide what birds are OK to disturb and which ones are not. That seems to be an absurd thing to do. All of us, photgraphers and birders alike need to be aware of our impact on our surroundings and stop pointing the fingers at others. > > And now for what may get me lynched. I think that birders cause significantly more disturbance than photographers do. Do we all really think that when 30 people are lined up (even at a reasonable distance) from a Snowy Owl that you are not "on its mind", that it is not extremely aware of your presence? Do you think that it feels comfortable hunting while a crowd is present? I don't. At least most photographers will make a reasonable effort to slowly approach these birds so that they can actually not make it fly. That is how you get a good picture isn't it? These birds are comming to public places and are surrounded by dogs and loads of people. When they are bothered enough, they will fly. Is that really a huge deal if a Snowy Owl flies a few hundred yards down the beach? I really do not think so and I have no clue why so many people think that. These birds did just fly hundereds of miles south didn't they? I would argue that the continued presence of a crowd of birders in a field or a swamp or the beach has a much greater negative impact on the birds than people may think. I have seen at least 20 Snowy Owls and I have never seen one actively hunting. Why is that? Probably because I was there and wether or not I approached it too closely still did not mean that I was not disturbing the bird. These birds are choosing to or have been forced to winter in what is unfortunately a public area. The Breezy owls will have to deal with dogs, people and loads of 4x4's on the beach. They will do their best to stay away from the people and when they feel distrubed they will fly. That is about the best they can do. My experience has been that if you are birding anywhere (and I have lots of experience having birdered in every continent other than Antarctica) and you are still and quiet then you will see more birds. The birds seem to not be disturbed as much and will approach extremely close without being alarmed or flushing. Ever see a bird and it flies as soon as you pick up your binoucluars to look at it? You disturbed it by your movements. Most photoagraphers will lie or stand still and quitely most of the time. In my opinion that disturbs the birds less than a group of birders talking and snapping pictures. > > So what does that mean for birders vs. photographers. Well it means nothing. Everyone always thinks that someone else is doing more harm than they are. I think you look quickly and then leave and that is what will cause the least disturbance to these birds. I think that 30 people that are at a reasonable distance does a lot more harm than everyone is talking about. My vote is that birders are doing more harm than the photograhers. And we all need to look in the mirror a little bit more before we point the finger toward others. > -- > NYSbirds-L List Info: > Welcome and Basics > Rules and Information > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > Archives: > The Mail Archive > Surfbirds > BirdingOnThe.Net > Please submit your observations to eBird! > -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Syracuse RBA
From: Joseph Brin <brinjoseph AT yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 16:53:34 -0800

RBA Â *Â New York *Â Syracuse *Â February 06, 2012 *Â NYSY 02.06.12 Hotline: Syracuse Rare bird Alert Dates(s): January 30, 2012 - February 06, 2012 to report by e-mail: brinjoseph AT yahoo.com covering upstate NY counties: Cayuga, Montezuma National Wildlife Refuge and Montezuma Wetlands Complex (MWC) (just outside Cayuga County), Onondaga, Oswego, Lewis, Jefferson, Oneida, Herkimer,Â Madison & Cortland compiled:February 06 AT 7:30 p.m. (EST) compiler: Joseph Brin Onondaga Audubon Homepage: www.onondagaaudubon.org Â Â #291 -Monday February 06, 2012 Â Â Greetings! This is the Syracuse Area Rare Bird Alert for the week of January 30 , 2012 Â Highlights: ----------- RED -THROATED LOON WESTERN GREBE (Extralimital) TUNDRA SWAN NORTHERN HARRIER TURKEY VULTURE ICELAND GULL GLAUCOUS GULL SNOWY OWL NORTHERN SHRIKE FISH CROW BOHEMIAN WAXWING YELLOW-RUMPED WARBLER WHITE-WINGED CROSSBILL COMMON REDPOLL PINE SISKIN Montezuma National Wildlife Refuge (MNWR) and Montezuma Wetlands Complex (MWC) ------------ Â Â Â Â 2/6: NORTHERN HARRIERS were seen at the Visitorâ€™s Center and Mayâ€™s Point. Onondaga County ------------ Â Â Â Â SNOWY OWLS were reported at Syracuseâ€™s Hancock Airport again this week, mostly from the Corregidor Road area but also from Malden Road south of the airport. Also being seen was a dark phase ROUGH-LEGGED HAWK. Â Â Â Â 1/31: CANVASBACK and RED HEAD ducks were seen in Skaneateles Lake from the village. Â Â Â Â 2/1: 9 species of waterfowl including GREEN-WINGED TEAL and CANVASBACK were seen at the mouth of Nine Mile Creek on Onondaga Lake. 10 FISH CROWS were found at the Marina in Liverpool. Â Â Â Â 2/2: A NORTHERN HARRIER was seen on Maple Road in the Town of Clay. A TURKEY VULTURE and a YELLOW-RUMPED WARBLER were found in the fields east of 60 Road at Three Rivers WMA north of Baldwinsville. Â Â Â Â 2/4: PINE SISKINS were seen on Shakham Road near the Cortland County line. Â Â Â Â 2/6: A YELLOW-BELLIED SAPSUCKER and a NORTHERN SHRIKE were seen in the fields east of 60 Road in the Three Rivers WMA. Madison County ------------ Â Â Â Â 2/1: 7 ICELAND GULLS and 1 GLAUCOUS GULL were seen at the Madison County Landfill. Â Â Â Â 2/6: A ROUGH-LEGGED HAWK and a NORTHERN SHRIKE were spotted at the Chickadee Hill Wildlife Sanctuary in Erieville. Oswego County ------------ Â Â Â Â 2/3: 5 WHITE-WINGED CROSSBILLS were found on North Church Road in Boylston. Â Â Â Â 2/5: WHITE-WINGED CROSSBILLS were again seen on North Church Road along with PINE SISKINS. On Wart Road a NORTHERN SHRIKE wass found. 20 COMMON REDPOLLS were found at Selkirk Shores State Park. Â Â Â Â 2/6: At Derby Hill a RED-THROATED LOON was seen from the overlook and a NORTHERN SHRIKE was spotted south of Rt.104-B near Sage Creek Road. Extralimital ------------ Â Â Â Â A WESTERN GREBE has been seen through the week from Stewart Park at the south end of Cayuga Lake near Ithaca. Â Â Â Â End Transcript -- Joseph Brin Region 5 Baldwinsville, N.Y.Â 13027Â U.S.A. -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Black Vulture and Short-eared Owls at Shawangunk Grasslands NWR
From: Anthony Collerton <icollerton AT gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 19:43:09 -0500

Scanned from Galeville Town park for the evening raptor show (from 4pm to 5:45pm). Things move around a lot but high counts included 2 Turkey Vultures, a BLACK VULTURE, 13 Northern Harriers, 2 ROUGH-LEGGED HAWKS, 8 SHORT-EARED OWLS, and 2 Red-tailed Hawks. We also had a COYOTE hunting for mice and providing great scope views for all. A really neat spot. I'm pleased to report that the assembled birders and photographers had a fine and amiable time just enjoying the birds .... -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Bad behavior
From: Isaac Grant <hosesbroadbill AT hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 19:31:10 -0500

Here is my two cents based off of over 30 years of birding in this state. I find this entire discussion absurd and think that everyone has pretty much missed the real point. I have no clue why people get so up in arms about flushing owls. Let me preface this by saying that some of the people that I am about to criticize are people that I bird with frequently, people that I have known for over 20 years, people that have been to my home and my wedding. I find it all extremely contradictory and hypocritical . The same people that are finger pointing and bad mouthing and video taping and planning secret groups because a few people get too close to a bird, have no problem walking through the east pond and fulshing hundreds if not thousands of migratory shorebirds that are desparately trying to refuel for their huge migration south. Is is possible to walk the east pond without flushing loads of birds? Does any one care if they flush a flock of peeps, dowitchers or yellow legs or even give at a second thought while they are searching for a Godwit or Stint? They have no probelm walking through a field in the fall and flushing hordes of birds in the hopes that a Clay Colored or Lark Sparrow be found amongst the hordes of Savannah Sparrows and Song Sparrows and more common species. Can anyone see a sparrow in NY without flushing it first? These same people have no problem pshing in any number of song birds during migration. Doesn't that disturb these birds more than an occasional flush by a photographer or flash? The examples are endless. What birder has not flushed flock after flock of Dunlin and Sanderling while walking on the beach at Breezy and Jones Beach looking for one of those Snowy Owls? What birder has not crashed through median strip at Jones Beach looking for Crossbills or Sawwhets and not flushed Yellowrumps and Juncos, etc. What birder has not walked the trail out to Breezy and not flushed numerous Yellowrupms and Cardinals and blackbirds. What birder has not walked near a pond and not had every duck swim to the other side of it? What birder has not flushed loads of Ring-billed and Herring Gulls on the beach while trying to find a Glaucous or Iceland Gull? What birder has not walked through central park and not flushed a Hermit thrush or Ovenbird? I have never gone to Point Lookout and seen the Harlequin Ducks without them continuously swimming away from me. Maybe they just don't like me but I think that they are obviously wary of people and do their best to keep their distance. The obvious answer to all of my questions is that it is impossible to be a birder and to not continuously disturb birds. Do any of us really think that everytime we walk on a beach or thrugh the woods or in a field that we are not disturbing the birds that are trying to see? I am not in any way condoning someone who is purposely flushing an owl or approaching unnecessarily close. But we need to keep in perspective what it is that all of us (certainly including myself) are doing every time we enter the field? I do not think that you can randolmly decide what birds are OK to disturb and which ones are not. That seems to be an absurd thing to do. All of us, photgraphers and birders alike need to be aware of our impact on our surroundings and stop pointing the fingers at others. And now for what may get me lynched. I think that birders cause significantly more disturbance than photographers do. Do we all really think that when 30 people are lined up (even at a reasonable distance) from a Snowy Owl that you are not "on its mind", that it is not extremely aware of your presence? Do you think that it feels comfortable hunting while a crowd is present? I don't. At least most photographers will make a reasonable effort to slowly approach these birds so that they can actually not make it fly. That is how you get a good picture isn't it? These birds are comming to public places and are surrounded by dogs and loads of people. When they are bothered enough, they will fly. Is that really a huge deal if a Snowy Owl flies a few hundred yards down the beach? I really do not think so and I have no clue why so many people think that. These birds did just fly hundereds of miles south didn't they? I would argue that the continued presence of a crowd of birders in a field or a swamp or the beach has a much greater negative impact on the birds than people may think. I have seen at least 20 Snowy Owls and I have never seen one actively hunting. Why is that? Probably because I was there and wether or not I approached it too closely still did not mean that I was not disturbing the bird. These birds are choosing to or have been forced to winter in what is unfortunately a public area. The Breezy owls will have to deal with dogs, people and loads of 4x4's on the beach. They will do their best to stay away from the people and when they feel distrubed they will fly. That is about the best they can do. My experience has been that if you are birding anywhere (and I have lots of experience having birdered in every continent other than Antarctica) and you are still and quiet then you will see more birds. The birds seem to not be disturbed as much and will approach extremely close without being alarmed or flushing. Ever see a bird and it flies as soon as you pick up your binoucluars to look at it? You disturbed it by your movements. Most photoagraphers will lie or stand still and quitely most of the time. In my opinion that disturbs the birds less than a group of birders talking and snapping pictures. So what does that mean for birders vs. photographers. Well it means nothing. Everyone always thinks that someone else is doing more harm than they are. I think you look quickly and then leave and that is what will cause the least disturbance to these birds. I think that 30 people that are at a reasonable distance does a lot more harm than everyone is talking about. My vote is that birders are doing more harm than the photograhers. And we all need to look in the mirror a little bit more before we point the finger toward others. -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Barrow's Goldeneye (YES) @ Jamaica Bay Wildlife Refuge Queens County...
From: Andrew Baksh <birdingdude AT gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 19:12:34 -0500

This afternoon I did a vigil on the West Pond at Jamaica Bay Wildlife Refuge, in an effort to establish the time that the *Barrow's Goldeneye*was returning to roost. After an hour and half of constantly scanning the West Pond, I finally picked up the Barrow's Goldeneye around 5:35 p.m. From my field notes, the number of Goldeneyes seen on the pond from around 3:30 were 3 (all common) and it was only until around 4:30 p.m. that additional Goldeneyes began arriving to roost. Unlike Floyd Bennett, this time I was able to get some distance digiscope shots and video of the Barrow's for documentation purposes. Previous reports from many birders who had the Barrow's in the morning, indicate that the best window in the AM to see this bird may be from first light to around 7:30-40 a.m. Hopefully with a consistent evening pattern, folks who are trying for the bird have the evening option if the morning is too early for them. I will advise that a scope may be necessary to pick this bird out in low light and at a distance. Other notables on the West Pond included Northern Pintails and Canvasbacks. Additionally, near the north end of the refuge parking lot, there were at least 3 *American Woodcocks* peenting. Earlier before my Barrow's vigil, a peruse of Pumpkin Channel (on the bayside) from the West Pond trail, did not turn up the *Eared Grebe*. Andrew Baksh Queens NY www.birdingdude.blogspot.com -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: RE: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
From: Will Raup <hoaryredpoll AT hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 17:26:15 -0500

Photographers are clearly muggles, but the birding community has its share of deatheaters. Will Raup Albany, NY Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it From: jacobdrucker AT msn.com Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 16:53:32 -0500 CC: gregoryfisher AT sprintmail.com; peterbilt.birder AT yahoo.com; nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu To: fpimentel AT verizon.net When will Harry Potter fans get involved in this discussion? Jacob On Feb 6, 2012, at 4:45 PM, Felipe Pimentel wrote:Dan, The problem with your suggestion is the potential danger of creating a kind of "birding war" that would not help to solve any problem but may create new ones, including potentially violent encounters in the field that we must avoid. More productive could be the development of some flexible guidelines by some local groups (like the Audubon society) about what birders or bird photographers should do and not do in the field. Codes of ethics are by definition general moral principles. In my humble opinion the best policy is self-restraint and a good sense of personal responsibility. There are issues that will never be solved. For example, the issue of "disturbing" birds or approaching birds. Maybe for a particular birder being too close to a bird means 50 feet away while for others may be only 30. Massive birding by definition is a potential disturbance for many birds. When you have 60 bird watchers congregated on the same spot that could create be more disturbance than a single photographer taking pictures of the same bird even at a closer distance. What I am trying to say is that things cannot be one-dimensional and that practical common sense cannot be like the Ten Commandments (for those who are believers), written in stone.FP On Feb 6, 2012, at 3:39 PM, Gregory Fisher wrote: Hey Dan, I am fine with that as long as you at least try to educate the individuals exhibiting the poor behavior. Some people are just ignorant and just need a little guidance. Yesterday's example by Adam is a prime example. You approach them, try to considerately educate them. When they resist and blow you off then communicate to others. Everyone deserves a fair shake. Greg -----Original Message----- From: Dan Sent: Feb 6, 2012 3:35 PM To: Gregory Fisher Cc: "" , NY BIRDS Cornell Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it Let's all take photos of photographers that misbehave. Be SURE to post them to the appropriate listserve. If you see that photographer enter their vehicle, try to photograph the make and model and the license plate number too :) Good birding! Dan Furbish peterbilt.birder AT yahoo.com -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basics Rules and Information Subscribe, Configuration and Leave Archives: The Mail Archive Surfbirds BirdingOnThe.Net Please submit your observations to eBird! -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basics Rules and Information Subscribe, Configuration and Leave Archives: The Mail Archive Surfbirds BirdingOnThe.Net Please submit your observations to eBird! -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: ADMIN: Courtesy and Rules
From: "Christopher T. Tessaglia-Hymes" <cth4 AT cornell.edu>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 22:22:20 +0000

In light of some recent ill-chosen dialogue, I must remind those who choose to post messages to this List that it is not okay to single out people or publicly lambast them. Please keep the postings more constructive in nature, instead of playing the blame game. The List Rules specifically state "Flaming or Offensive Messages will not be tolerated. This means that offensive or inconsiderate replies or posts to the List may result in immediate suspension, and possibly removal, from the List. The Listowner only has limited control over what is posted to the List and how subscribers are using the List." Please be courteous when posting! List Rules: http://www.northeastbirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES Thank you! Sincerely, Chris T-H -- Chris Tessaglia-Hymes Listowner, NYSbirds-L Ithaca, New York cth4 AT cornell.edu NYSbirds-L - Archives NYSbirds-L - Welcome and Basics NYSbirds-L - Rules and Information NYSbirds-L - Subscribe, Configuration and Leave -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Re: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
From: Arie Gilbert <ariegilbert AT optonline.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 17:15:03 -0500

Subject: Re:Bad behavior
From: "Peter W. Post" <pwpost AT nyc.rr.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 16:59:36 -0500

I usually don't like to become embroiled in these types of conversations for obvious reasons. However, I would like to make some observations. (1) In my personal experience some of the worst offenders have been those ready to condemn others while citing some sort of ethics code or another. They need to clean up their own act first. (2) Many birders I encounter in the field know nothing about bird behavior and how to judge when one is approaching a bird too closely. It's up experienced birds to educate them. (3) Be careful on what photos and information you post on the internet. You could be opening yourself up to a law suit. Peter Post NYC -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Re: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
From: Jacob Drucker <jacobdrucker AT msn.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 16:53:32 -0500

When will Harry Potter fans get involved in this discussion? Jacob On Feb 6, 2012, at 4:45 PM, Felipe Pimentel wrote: > Dan, > > The problem with your suggestion is the potential danger of creating a kind of "birding war" that would not help to solve any problem but may create new ones, including potentially violent encounters in the field that we must avoid. More productive could be the development of some flexible guidelines by some local groups (like the Audubon society) about what birders or bird photographers should do and not do in the field. Codes of ethics are by definition general moral principles. In my humble opinion the best policy is self-restraint and a good sense of personal responsibility. > There are issues that will never be solved. For example, the issue of "disturbing" birds or approaching birds. Maybe for a particular birder being too close to a bird means 50 feet away while for others may be only 30. Massive birding by definition is a potential disturbance for many birds. When you have 60 bird watchers congregated on the same spot that could create be more disturbance than a single photographer taking pictures of the same bird even at a closer distance. > What I am trying to say is that things cannot be one-dimensional and that practical common sense cannot be like the Ten Commandments (for those who are believers), written in stone. > FP > > > On Feb 6, 2012, at 3:39 PM, Gregory Fisher wrote: > >> >> Hey Dan, >> >> I am fine with that as long as you at least try to educate the individuals exhibiting the poor behavior. Some people are just ignorant and just need a little guidance. Yesterday's example by Adam is a prime example. You approach them, try to considerately educate them. When they resist and blow you off then communicate to others. Everyone deserves a fair shake. >> >> Greg >> >> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Dan >>> Sent: Feb 6, 2012 3:35 PM >>> To: Gregory Fisher >>> Cc: "" , NY BIRDS Cornell >>> Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it >>> >>> Let's all take photos of photographers that misbehave. Be SURE to post them to the appropriate listserve. If you see that photographer enter their vehicle, try to photograph the make and model and the license plate number too :) >>> >>> Good birding! >>> >>> Dan Furbish >>> peterbilt.birder AT yahoo.com >> >> >> -- >> >> NYSbirds-L List Info: >> http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME >> http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES >> http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm >> >> ARCHIVES: >> 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html >> 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L >> 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html >> >> Please submit your observations to eBird: >> http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ >> >> -- > > -- > NYSbirds-L List Info: > Welcome and Basics > Rules and Information > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > Archives: > The Mail Archive > Surfbirds > BirdingOnThe.Net > Please submit your observations to eBird! > -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Re: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
From: Felipe Pimentel <fpimentel AT verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 16:45:11 -0500

Dan, The problem with your suggestion is the potential danger of creating a kind of "birding war" that would not help to solve any problem but may create new ones, including potentially violent encounters in the field that we must avoid. More productive could be the development of some flexible guidelines by some local groups (like the Audubon society) about what birders or bird photographers should do and not do in the field. Codes of ethics are by definition general moral principles. In my humble opinion the best policy is self-restraint and a good sense of personal responsibility. There are issues that will never be solved. For example, the issue of "disturbing" birds or approaching birds. Maybe for a particular birder being too close to a bird means 50 feet away while for others may be only 30. Massive birding by definition is a potential disturbance for many birds. When you have 60 bird watchers congregated on the same spot that could create be more disturbance than a single photographer taking pictures of the same bird even at a closer distance. What I am trying to say is that things cannot be one-dimensional and that practical common sense cannot be like the Ten Commandments (for those who are believers), written in stone. FP On Feb 6, 2012, at 3:39 PM, Gregory Fisher wrote: > > Hey Dan, > > I am fine with that as long as you at least try to educate the individuals exhibiting the poor behavior. Some people are just ignorant and just need a little guidance. Yesterday's example by Adam is a prime example. You approach them, try to considerately educate them. When they resist and blow you off then communicate to others. Everyone deserves a fair shake. > > Greg > > -----Original Message----- >> From: Dan >> Sent: Feb 6, 2012 3:35 PM >> To: Gregory Fisher >> Cc: "" , NY BIRDS Cornell >> Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it >> >> Let's all take photos of photographers that misbehave. Be SURE to post them to the appropriate listserve. If you see that photographer enter their vehicle, try to photograph the make and model and the license plate number too :) >> >> Good birding! >> >> Dan Furbish >> peterbilt.birder AT yahoo.com > > > -- > > NYSbirds-L List Info: > http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME > http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES > http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm > > ARCHIVES: > 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html > 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L > 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html > > Please submit your observations to eBird: > http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ > > -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Re: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
From: Robert Lewis <rfermat AT yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 13:42:24 -0800

Careful. This post makes me uneasy. It smacks of vigilante justice. Moderation in all things. Bob Lewis Sleepy Hollow NY --- On Mon, 2/6/12, Dan wrote: > From: Dan > Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it > To: "Gregory Fisher" > Cc: "" , "NY BIRDS Cornell" > > Let's all take photos of > photographers that misbehave. Be SURE to post them to the > appropriate listserve. If you see that photographer enter > their vehicle, try to photograph the make and model and the > license plate number too :) > > Good birding! > > Dan Furbish > peterbilt.birder AT yahoo.com > -- > -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Re: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
From: <PeregrineJV AT aol.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 16:07:38 -0500

I agree! Do not post owls as photographers like myself will probably want to photograph them. The bashing continues and as walk with a lens I always feel a sense of discomfort when I see birdwatchers. Which is why I learned a long time ago to keep my mouth shut about any birds I find.. So presently this year I will not disclose the location of 2 Snowy owls in Ulster County, 4 Saw Whets in Rockland County and the 3 large historical roost sites of LEOWs I have been watching for 5 years in Orange County.. In a message dated 2/6/2012 9:02:03 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sausubel AT nyc.rr.com writes: The opinion I voiced, to stop posting about owls, is certainly not a new one among birders and has been in practice for years. It is unfortunate. Education will help to reduce disturbance, which is why I re-posted the ABA's ethics principles. There are a number of web sites that have similar principles for wildlife photographers. Here is one: _http://www.naturephotographers.net/ethics.html_ (http://www.naturephotographers.net/ethics.html) I was glad to see the Administrator of this list post about ethics a few weeks ago. It was clear from the discussion about baiting owls with mice that many people were unaware of the potential problem of habituation, so perhaps many are unaware of ethical principles in general. Or at least need reminding. As Stella indicated, there are other ways than the listserv to see owls, like getting out and looking. But please respect the birds and the habitat. On Feb 6, 2012, at 8:02 AM, Arthur H. Kopelman, Ph.D. wrote: Iâ€™ve seen the same kind of behavior with folks trying to photograph seals and getting too close, or trying to flush the, from haulout sites. Educating these folks and having the MMPA as a threat goes a long way to help reduce the offensive behavior. I thoroughly understand the pique we all feel at those who have absolutely no respect for the ecosystems upon which they trod and within which they are photographing, but letâ€™s remember that these folks donâ€™t represent the majority. I think that it would be a shame to stop posting information about owls, or other interesting birds/wildlife. Perhaps one could post the general vicinity (e.g., Jones Beach, Breezy Point, etc.) within posting the specifics, and your images are geotagged, perhaps you can post them with minimal EXIF data embedded. If one is interested in the specifics, they can email the poster and request that info. Artie Arthur H. Kopelman, Ph. D. President, Coastal Research and Education Society of Long Island _president AT cresli.org_ (mailto:president AT cresli.org) _www.cresli.org _ (http://www.cresli.org/) 631-244-3352 ( e-mails scanned for viruses before sending) "When the last individual of a race of living thing breathes no more, another heaven and another earth must pass before such a one can be again" ...... William Beebee P Be kind to the environment - unless you need to, please don't print this e-mail From: _bounce-39535655-3714799 AT list.cornell.edu_ (mailto:bounce-39535655-3714799 AT list.cornell.edu) [mailto:bounce-39535655-3714799 AT list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Stella Miller Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 7:14 AM To: _nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu_ (mailto:nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu) ; Gregory Fisher Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it To jump into the fray here: I have personally witnessed more than just two people harassing snowy owls, in fact, I have observed, on several occasions, up to four or five photographers at a time deliberately flushing the bird, approaching it too closely, causing the bird to have to continually fly down the beach, paparazzi in tow. I have also had reports from friends who have witnessed this same behavior as recently as a week or so ago. In another example, just yesterday I was observing a screech owl near my house. Two photographers came over and started snapping away. I asked them to please be respectful of the bird, keep their distance and not disturb it. I then pretended to walk into the woods for a hike as they said they were leaving. As I entered the woods, I watched them go back to the owl, and heard their car horn go off several times. I cannot confirm, but it seemed as though they were trying to prompt the owl into opening its eyes. To their credit they did not approach closely, or stay long and did leave after 1/2 an hour. It is not just two guys, unfortunately there seems to be a growing rash of unethical behavior occurring, with boundaries being crossed that should not be. I agree with Seth, owls should not be listed on the listserv. Word of mouth has worked wonderfully in the past, in fact, I only joined the listserv a year or so ago and managed to hear about any and all owls that were being seen. Stella Miller President Huntington-Oyster Bay Audubon "Conservation is sometimes perceived as stopping everything cold, as holding whooping cranes in higher esteem than people. It is up to science to spread the understanding that the choice is not between wild places or people, it is between a rich or an impoverished existence for Man." Thomas Lovejoy --- On Mon, 2/6/12, Gregory Fisher <_gregoryfisher AT sprintmail.com_ (mailto:gregoryfisher AT sprintmail.com) > wrote: From: Gregory Fisher <_gregoryfisher AT sprintmail.com_ (mailto:gregoryfisher AT sprintmail.com) > Subject: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it To: _nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu_ (mailto:nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu) Date: Monday, February 6, 2012, 6:19 AM All, I am a photographer and am very respectful of wildlife and the birding ethic rules. In no way do I want to bring harm or stress any wildlife including snowy owls. The opportunity to be able to see these magnificant birds this winter is an awesome one. The birding list have been an awesome resource in order to see not only snowy owls but other species as well. Just because there were 2 bad apples some people who think they are above everyone else trashes photographers in general. Then we have frequent birders say they are no longer going to post specific locations, which in my mind means people will have to look harder and possibly flush out bird looking instead of understand where they are and staying a good distance away to observe. Then we have others that say they will no longer post at all. If this is the case why not just band this whole concept of the birding list and we can all go back to the stone age. I understand the problem with a select few but come on people grow up and handle the situation responsibly. Greg -- NYSbirds-L List Info: _http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME_ (http://www.northeastbirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME) _http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES_ (http://www.northeastbirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES) _http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm_ (http://www.northeastbirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm) ARCHIVES: 1) _http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html_ (http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html) 2) _http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L_ (http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L) 3) _http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html_ (http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html) Please submit your observations to eBird: _http://ebird.org/content/ebird/_ (http://ebird.org/content/ebird/) -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: _Welcome and Basics_ (http://www.northeastbirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME) _Rules and Information_ (http://www.northeastbirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES) _Subscribe, Configuration and Leave_ (http://www.northeastbirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm) Archives: _The Mail Archive_ (http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html) _Surfbirds_ (http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L) _BirdingOnThe.Net_ (http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html) Please submit your observations to _eBird_ (http://ebird.org/content/ebird/) ! -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: _Welcome and Basics_ (http://www.northeastbirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME) _Rules and Information_ (http://www.northeastbirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES) _Subscribe, Configuration and Leave_ (http://www.northeastbirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm) Archives: _The Mail Archive_ (http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html) _Surfbirds_ (http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L) _BirdingOnThe.Net_ (http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html) Please submit your observations to _eBird_ (http://ebird.org/content/ebird/) ! -- Seth Ausubel Forest Hills, NY -- NYSbirds-L List Info: _Welcome and Basics_ (http://www.northeastbirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME) _Rules and Information_ (http://www.northeastbirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES) _Subscribe, Configuration and Leave_ (http://www.northeastbirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm) Archives: _The Mail Archive_ (http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html) _Surfbirds_ (http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L) _BirdingOnThe.Net_ (http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html) Please submit your observations to _eBird_ (http://ebird.org/content/ebird/) ! -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Turkey Vultures Suffolk County
From: Joel Horman <jlhorman AT optonline.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 16:06:04 -0500

Early this afternoon 2 Turkey Vultures were seen soaring over Southaven County Park, Brookhaven, tending in a northerly direction. Rather early, as multiples usually not seen here by us until March. Peggy & Joel Horman Ridge, NY -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Re: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
From: Gregory Fisher <gregoryfisher AT sprintmail.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 15:39:51 -0500

Hey Dan, I am fine with that as long as you at least try to educate the individuals exhibiting the poor behavior. Some people are just ignorant and just need a little guidance. Yesterday's example by Adam is a prime example. You approach them, try to considerately educate them. When they resist and blow you off then communicate to others. Everyone deserves a fair shake. Greg -----Original Message----- >From: Dan >Sent: Feb 6, 2012 3:35 PM >To: Gregory Fisher >Cc: "" , NY BIRDS Cornell >Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it > >Let's all take photos of photographers that misbehave. Be SURE to post them to the appropriate listserve. If you see that photographer enter their vehicle, try to photograph the make and model and the license plate number too :) > >Good birding! > >Dan Furbish >peterbilt.birder AT yahoo.com -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Re: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
From: Dan <peterbilt.birder AT yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 15:35:32 -0500

Let's all take photos of photographers that misbehave. Be SURE to post them to the appropriate listserve. If you see that photographer enter their vehicle, try to photograph the make and model and the license plate number too :) Good birding! Dan Furbish peterbilt.birder AT yahoo.com -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: RE: ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds
From: Mark Barriger <mark8bud8 AT hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 15:24:30 -0500

The issue here is how to protect owls from being harassed by unethical and just plain pathetic photographers/birders. Not whether we should chase birds or whether we should report rare birds. So not sure why we got turned in that direction but maybe we can focus back on the main problem. I'm tired of hearing or reading someone saying "it's not fair that we get punished just because of a few bad apples". First of all it's not a few bad apples it's a bunch and the number is growing every year. It's 2012 and most people have a computer, smart phone, and a camera and at 10:30am an owl will be reported and by noon there's a mob of people coming and going and thats when you get your simple minded morons who show up to get an up close and personal shot or view of the owl. You can kick them off the list, you can report they're info on the list serve and you can confront them but the fact is we are not going to be able to defend these birds 24hrs a day and in fact I'm positive that we only observe a small amount of this nonsense. The "serious" birders know this because we have spent a great deal of time out in the field and have seen it first hand way to many times. I have a family, a full time job, and plenty of things to do and when I finally get time to bird watch and enjoy the owls I for one am sick and tired of it being ruined. If people insist on reporting them I liked the suggestion of listing what you saw but leave out the specifics. If you want to see that Snowy Owl at Jones Beach, that Barred Owl in Central Park, or that Long-eared Owl in Pelham Bay put in the foot work and look for it. First of all the Owls not always going to be right where it was last seen, you'll probably sharpen up your birding skills, and most importantly will cut down on some of the traffic and relieve some stress on the birds. By not reporting the owls doesn't mean keep it quiet but keep it off the net. Before birdingonthenet came along we still found owls and word always spread and it's not going to totally solve the problem but it would be a huge help. Besides half of the excitement is getting your hands dirty, freezing your butt off, and finally tracking one down. Thats what bird watching is all about:) Mark Barriger Wallingford, CT > Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 12:58:02 -0500 > From: jamesost AT optonline.net > Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds > To: NYSBIRDS-L AT cornell.edu > > Fred speaks well, and, indeed, we need to gather all these thoughts, > and, if nothing else, state clearly and succinctly what the problem > is. To contribute to this, thinking there might be significant legal > aspects to consider, I've placed inquiry with NYSDEC, thinking them > the most likely authority on such subjects. I'll post further of > anything useful that comes from reply. > > > -- > > NYSbirds-L List Info: > http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME > http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES > http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm > > ARCHIVES: > 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html > 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L > 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html > > Please submit your observations to eBird: > http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ > > -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Re: bird disturbance and 'photographers'
From: Gregory Fisher <gregoryfisher AT sprintmail.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 15:19:06 -0500

Subject: bird disturbance and 'photographers'
From: Adam Welz <adamwelz AT yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 11:18:46 -0800

Hi Phil & others Your email brings up a number of points that merit discussion. I think that birds have far more serious problems than 'photographers', and I think your proposed approach of making bird details 'secret', and the approach followed by you and Rob Jett of photographing people and posting their details on the net can be harmfully counterproductive. Here's why I think this: 1) With the net being what it is, there's nothing to stop anyone posting any details of any bird to any audience they choose. Cutting off one source of information will not stop information getting out. 2) North American birds are generally in decline not because of photographers, but because of habitat destruction, collisions with buildings, feral cats, poisons etc. -- in roughly that order. Addressing these issues means having political power, i.e. birds need people to be actively working for their interests in the broader political realm. 3) That's not to say that clueless or selfish photographers and birders don't sometimes do things that aren't in birds' interest. 4) The way to address the problems mentioned in 3 and 4 above is engagement -- get the word out about birds to the public at large, and sensitize photographers and birders to the needs of birds. "If a bird looks stressed and flies away from you, you're probably bothering it, and you should retreat", etc. These listservs are one way of engaging people, another great way is taking people out to see birds in a responsible way, and one can also engage photographers who are behaving inappropriately while they are doing it. We need more people to be out enjoying birds so that birds have a louder voice in the public arena. You can show people any number of photographs and tell them any number of facts about birds, but actually seeing and enjoying real live wild birds is far more powerful. At the moment we have an awful, confrontational situation between certain members of the birding community who think of themselves as gatekeepers of information/sites/knowledge, and other birders and the public at large: I have stopped counting the number of people that have expressed their dismay to me at Rob Jett's aggressive approach of trashing strangers' reputations on the internet -- without even talking to them on site -- because it creates a feeling that birders are more like surveillance police than nature-lovers. Rob has done a lot of birding around NY and it's sad that he's alienated so many people with his attitude. Some people don't know that they're walking in a place they're not supposed to, and simply talking with them sorts a problem out. (Others are jerks and present somewhat more difficult challenges. I'm not proposing saying or doing nothing and maybe, ultimately, repeat offenders could benefit from some attention from law enforcement.) Phil, you should also know that more and more people think of you as a hypocrite, trash-talking 'photographers' while yourself walking around with a massive lens. Surely the point is not that people are 'photographers' or 'photographer-birders' or whatever, but that they behave reasonably sensitively to birds? I've never really talked to you, and I don't know you, and I have no idea of your character, but I do know that when I approached the gentleman who you wrote about in your email, the one walking through the dunes after the Snowy Owl, you stood on by just a few yards away, saying nothing, while I engaged him on the fact that I'd seen him flush the owl and that walking through the dunes was not allowed. As it turns out the gentleman was extremely defensive/aggressive and the interaction did not go well, but I received no support from you -- you seemed to do your best to ignore what was going on at the time & emailing about it later. This makes you, sadly, seem like a coward. I hope to have the chance of forming a better, updated impression of you. I understand that the previous two paragraphs might ruffle a few feathers, and that, as a relative newcomer to New York I'm doubtless going to be seen as insulting some of NYC's birding 'royalty'. I'm sorry if that's the case, but I've been part of different birding communities both within my home country and others, and having birded and researched birds over a period of 25 years on 5 continents, I feel I have some right to speak. I think that the various birding listservs should be used as an opportunity to educate and engage people around birds and birding ethics. I think as many people as possible should be encouraged to bird, photograph birds, and celebrate them as possible -- in a responsible way -- because that's what's good for birds in the political realm, which is where we get to defend their habitats from destruction and encroachment. If the public at large don't know that amazing birds are living in a place, no-one's going to care when it gets paved over, and the best way to get them to care is if they see and experience the birds themselves. 'No Entry' signs and secretive, misanthropic birders are not welcoming to people at large, and do nothing for the cause of bird conservation. Anyone who's studied birds seriously soon learns that many birds rapidly become accustomed to the disturbance regimes in their habitats, so, for example, approaching a Red-tailed Hawk in Central Park on foot does not disturb it, because it's become habituated to New Yorkers on foot & has learned that they're not dangerous. Walk up to a Red-tail in certain farming areas, and the bird might get spooked and fly away, because the local humans often shoot at Red-tails. Similarly, certain birds get accustomed to extremely noisy, low-flying aircraft, but get disturbed by people approaching silently on foot. Disturbance is context-specific and species-specific (some species seem to be extremely sensitive to disturbance in all situations). We need to recognise this and not simply say that approaching at an owl anywhere, for any reason, is bad. Birds' behavior is often the best guide, rather than a set of abstract rules. If a bird is flying off when you approach it, you're probably disturbing it. If it chooses to nest above a busy sidewalk, then walking beneath it will probably not bother it. Some owls have no issues with people approaching them in a non-threatening way, like a pair of Spotted Eagle Owl I followed for years in Cape Town, has raised tens of young within a few yards of paths that carry hundreds of tourists a day in the Kirstenbosch Botanical Garden. Google 'Spotted Eagle Owl Kirstenbosch' for some of the thousands of photos and videos of these birds that have been made over the years. In conclusion, I'd like to advocate for a policy of openness and engagement, and I'd like to give an example of a situation in which this has worked. Some years ago I was doing research in the Little Karoo, a part of South Africa famed for rare succulent plants that were worth large amounts of money to foreign collectors. Some of these plants were in danger of becoming extinct due to foreigners digging them up and smuggling them out of the country. Local conservationists had a long debate as to whether to stop talking about the area being home to certain rare plants, or to publicize the plants and the threats to them. After seeing that silence wasn't stopping the illegal activity, it was decided to try publicity -- as a result, local people started to care about the plants, creating responsible tourist opportunities to see them but also looking out for unknown characters wandering about suspiciously where they were known to occur. As a result of some sharp-eyed locals speaking up, the local police for the first time apprehended plant smugglers -- including a well-known professor of botany from a prestigious Japanese university -- who were tried in court and found guilty of illegally removing protected species. Obviously, in places where one cannot build up a community of engaged local people who care about wildlife, publicity might not be the way to go. But in NYC there are abundant opportunities for doing this -- I'd far rather see locals that walk the beach at Breezy Point with their dogs see, know and care about the local owls, than not know about them because of some 'veil of silence' drawn across the issue by some self-appointed birding 'royals'. I think unethical/clueless birders and photographers would be far less likely to walk in the sensitive dune area and mob an owl if locals and other birders talked to them and the owls were seen as a special thing for the area to celebrate and protect. That's more than 2c on the topic. I hope to hear considered responses. Cheers Adam Welz ** NOTE ** When posting an earlier version of this email on ebirdsnyc, Phil Jeffrey barred me from 'his' list and publicly threatened to close the whole thing down, after which we engaged in a salty/rude email exchange -- just because of my brief criticism. I offered to sit down over a beer to sort things out, but he's chosen to call me 'delusional', while reminding me of his superior intelligence and 71 published academic papers. I obviously hit a nerve, which I take as an indication of the importance of this conversation.If you're going to post pictures of other birders on the net along with accusations regarding their behavior, I think you should be prepared to have your own behavior examined on the net. If you're also going to put yourself out as some sort of authority on birding, as Phil has through his blog and mentions in the NYTimes blog etc., it might help to recognise that you're not above criticism, and that others are going to be examining your behavior a little more intently than that of average birders' behavior. -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Suggestion - How to Observe and Photograph Owls Guide
From: John Laver <earthww AT gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 14:08:19 -0500

Watching the brouhaha over inconsiderate photographers with interest. Mostly, this is about owls, snowies in particular. I'm thinking there are two categories of problem people, those who willfully and consciously disturb and harass owls for the better shot, and those who lack the field craft to know how close to get to owls without disturbing them. Those who willfully, consciously disturb birds should be warned that they'll be photographed or videoed and reported to the appropriate authorities (and God knows there's usually enough photography hardware present at a twitch to make this a cinch). The others, I suspect, would respond well to education. There's some great institutional knowledge in the birding community and on this list in particular and someone could coordinate compiling an Owl Observation & Photography Field Craft Guide. The ABA Ethics code is useful, but from memory, it's broadly ethical, not practical. -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: BirdCallsRadio Archives | Pete Dunne
From: Mardi Dickinson <mardi1d AT gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 13:46:30 -0500

Birders et al, BirdCallsRadio archive is now available of Feb 5 show with our wonderful guest Pete Dunne Chief Communications Officer of New Jersey Audubon and Director of the Cape May Bird Observatory Pete is also the Founder of the World Series of Birding. http://birdcallsradio.com/2012/02/06/archive-of-february-5-with-pete-dunne/ Cheers, Mardi Dickinson Norwalk CT http://kymrygroup.com/ -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: RE: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
From: Gregory Fisher <gregoryfisher AT sprintmail.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 13:46:08 -0500

Subject: RE: ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds
From: "Kevin J. McGowan" <kjm2 AT cornell.edu>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 18:43:51 +0000

Seriously? Get a grip people. Someone already mentioned how owls bring out the worst in people, and I agree. The topic always sets off a flurry of sanctimonious posts from people trying to tell everyone else what to do. Mention was already made of joggers and dog walkers flushing the owls in the same place. I'd rather have a herd of photographers present than one dog running off leash or a family of picnickers with a little kid who likes to chase gulls. It's not like these owls are coming to some pristine wilderness, they're coming where people live and there is nothing to be done about that. Walking in a closed area or trespassing? Wrong, wrong, wrong. But being the only person avoiding approaching an owl in a public space is kind of silly. Bottom line - have respect, for the birds, for the law, and for other people who might have different desires than you. And let me suggest that getting more public to see Snowy Owls this winter (preferably in a spotting scope of a friendly birder) is a huge potential educational opportunity. Global warming? Why should I care? Oh, you mean those owls might be hurt? Boom, personal connection. Just a thought. Kevin Kevin J. McGowan Ithaca, NY kjm2 AT cornell.edu 607-254-2452 -----Original Message----- From: bounce-39537336-3714916 AT list.cornell.edu [mailto:bounce-39537336-3714916 AT list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Jim Osterlund Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 12:58 PM To: NYSBIRDS-L Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds Fred speaks well, and, indeed, we need to gather all these thoughts, and, if nothing else, state clearly and succinctly what the problem is. To contribute to this, thinking there might be significant legal aspects to consider, I've placed inquiry with NYSDEC, thinking them the most likely authority on such subjects. I'll post further of anything useful that comes from reply. -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Easy solution
From: <joetf1973 AT aol.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 13:40:45 -0500

I just spoke with a couple of people at the DEC. They suggested contacting a local conservation officer if you see someone harassing wildlife. There is a list of DEC regional offices and agents on the following link: http://www.dec.ny.gov/regulations/393.html I tend to think that most folks using this and other email lists are responsible and try to avoid bothering birds and other wildlife. Personally, I appreciate getting the "heads up" on a rare bird, however I can understand why some folks would be reluctant to post some sightings. I am neither upset or offended by some people not posting some sightings in the interest of animal welfare. Best, Joe Fell Buffalo, NY -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: [ebirdsnyc] Re: 'photographers' and disturbance
From: Michael Zablocky <mszablocky AT me.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 13:25:20 -0500

Well, for me the way out of these annoyances was simple - I stopped chasing rarities. My father was a stamp collector, and I remember how strange and compulsive that 'hobby' became for him. When I began to develop that same weird behavior, I decided it was time for me to cultivate mental health. The reason I loved to walk and bike, and to be out in nature since I was a child was that it allowed me to be alone and to have quiet. Personally, I never liked sports or competition in any form, and I'm probably one of the few native born Americans who has no understanding of baseball or football, nor do I care to learn. Organized birding always struck me as incredibly strange, the way it forces the sports mentality into an essentially gentle activity. Also, I am extremely chauvinistic. The Northeast is my home, and I always thought that the natural direction of heaven would be north. I travelled out west, and south to Florida once, and found those trips tiresome. I know I'll never repeat them. The idea of traveling to Asia or Africa, or South America is absurd to my way of thinking. Originally, I started birding to learn our local species, so it never interested me to gawk at birds from parts of the world I had no interest in seeing. I could just as easily turn on a National Geographic special. I tend to agree with Scotty. The majority of birders are not scientists, naturalists, or professional photographers. It's a hobby, nothing more. I would love for someone to run the numbers for how much fuel is wasted on these treks to find rarities. For people who claim to love nature, they should be ashamed. The amount of money spent on photographic equipment is staggering also - all to make technically perfect photos of the same birds over and over again. And almost all of these photographs lacking in artistic and scientific merit. All taken just to have taken them yourselves. Well, to each his own - I suppose. My apologies to the list owners for lacking self-control and adding my nonsense to this. Phil, go with your instinct. Pull this, I wouldn't fault you. Michael S. Zablocky Brooklyn, NY "I'm going off the rails on a crazy train." - Ozzy Osbourne -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Re: ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds
From: Gregory Fisher <gregoryfisher AT sprintmail.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 12:51:33 -0500

Subject: Re: ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds
From: Jim Osterlund <jamesost AT optonline.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 12:58:02 -0500

Fred speaks well, and, indeed, we need to gather all these thoughts, and, if nothing else, state clearly and succinctly what the problem is. To contribute to this, thinking there might be significant legal aspects to consider, I've placed inquiry with NYSDEC, thinking them the most likely authority on such subjects. I'll post further of anything useful that comes from reply. -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Re: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
From: Felipe Pimentel <fpimentel AT verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 12:53:52 -0500

The issue should not be one of "them against us" since that would not help at all. As a birder and as a photographer, I am concerned that these issues will have negative repercussions on the social interactions between us in the field. BTW, most of the bird photographers that I know are not "professional" but people who enjoy spending time shooting pictures of birds. Regarding the issue of reporting owl sightings, I stopped doing that after an unpleasant experience reporting the location of a Barred Owl that I saw in Central Park. Last week I saw a single Long-eared Owl roosting on a pine in Hunter Island (Pelham Bay Park). The bird was pretty high on a pine and well camouflaged to get a clear shot and I did not even try to get a picture. I wanted to report the sighting but I did not know how to do it without being too specific and explicit about the location and I did not even bother to do it to avoid arguments with other birders. FP On Feb 6, 2012, at 12:22 PM, Nadine Scarpa wrote: > On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:13 PM, Mark Barriger wrote: > > "My attitude is if your serious about photographing owls and your serious about observing them then spend more time out looking for them and less time checking online for other people sightings." > > So lets go ahead and punish the folks who are serious about observing birds, yet have full time jobs, families, and other commitments and don't have time to go out looking for birds on a full-time basis. > > Sure - that's it! > > This thread is becoming an "us" against "them" thread - the "professional" birders versus the folks who love birds, and love watching them, yet cannot spend all day out in the field. > > It's getting ridiculous. > This topic is going on in most States right now because of the number of Snowy Owls moving down. I think singling out the photographers is wrong but honestly at least three quarters of the time when I see a "birder" make a dumb controversial decision he/she usually has a camera present. Not even just with owls but with birds in general. Here is my one quick example. > A few weeks back I visited a house in Madison, CT to see a Yellow-throated Warbler. Most birders stood back and to the side and waited for the Warbler to come in but we had to move our positions to see the feeders because two photographers showed up, walked 8-10 ft from the feeder, and set up right in front of us. (a) no consideration to the birders present, (b) no consideration to the tenants that lived there and (c) no consideration to the bird itself. All they cared about was getting that shot. > I read a posting somewhere from a birder/photographer who was upset at what he witnessed while trying to photograph an Owl. I guess someone showed up and released a mouse so that they could get a few flight shots. This person wasn't mad because it might result in hurting the Owl itself BUT instead went on to talk about how this kind of action was causing the value in his flight shots to drop. Glad to see that his priorities were in order! > Most birders that I know don't report Owls and it's been that way for years and I have to say that I'm more surprised when I see people reporting Owls because 90% of the time it turns into a mess. Whether it's photographers or birders the fact is owls atract and when that happens nothing good ever comes out of it. Over the past two weeks I have been watching Barred, Saw-whet, and a Snowy Owl here in Connecticut and all have remained in the same areas because nobody knows about them and nobody bothers them. > My attitude is if your serious about photographing owls and your serious about observing them then spend more time out looking for them and less time checking online for other people sightings. > > > Mark Barriger > Wallingford, CT > > > > > From: lloyd AT lloydspitalnikphotos.com > To: NYSbirds-l AT cornell.edu > CC: nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu > Subject: RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it > Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 10:38:29 -0500 > > > Hi all, > > I was going to stay out of this thread because it’s an impossible situation. I come from 3 directions. I’m a long time birder, a professional wildlife photographer and a listowner of Metro Birding Briefs. As a listowner I’ve always discouraged posting of specific owl locations. Letting people know there’s a Barred Owl in Central Park is fine but saying it’s at lamppost 7902 isn’t. Likewise, a Snowy Owl is being seen at Breezy Point, OK but telling people it’s in the third dune back, not as good. I personally believe that self-policing is the best solution. Just a week or so ago, I was at Jones Beach photographing the white Snowy Owl when somebody started approaching the owl in a quick herky jerky manner. Of course, the owl flew. I was the first to get to its new location and kind of set up a line where the owl wasn’t disturbed but close enough to take photos. The offending photographer arriver shortly after and started doing the same thing again. I told him he needed to stop and explained what he was doing was wrong. He listened, stayed a few more hours and never abused the bird again. > > There are ways of making your point without being confrontational that are effective. There are also ways of approaching an owl or any other bird without alarming it but it requires a lot of patience. I won’t go into the technique but I took over 4000 images of “Whitey” and the bird always seemed quite serene. I haven’t really post many images but if you’re on Facebook I’m sure you can find a few. > > Educating new birders and photographers is essential as well as self-policing. Just my 3 cents. > > > All the best, > > Lloyd > > Lloyd Spitalnik Photography > > www.lloydspitalnikphotos.com > > > From: bounce-39536371-10711063 AT list.cornell.edu [mailto:bounce-39536371-10711063 AT list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Sam Stuart > Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 10:19 AM > To: david speiser > Cc: NYS Birds > Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it > > > All, > > > We are responsible for the sightings we make and the people we share those with. It is important to balance the need for documenting rare and irregular species vs. our desire to share these excellent sightings with others. This is especially true when dealing with sightings of territorial and sedentary species that are more susceptible to disturbances. These species should probably be documented on eBird (www.eBird.org) and the NY State Avian Records Committee (http://nybirds.org/NYSARC/nysarcform2.htm) rather than the list serve. > > > > > Thanks, > > Sam Stuart > > > > > On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 10:08 AM, david speiser wrote: > > I too agree with Cindy's summation. > The birding community as a whole should not turn into insular cliques that make it easy > not to report when you know you will hear about the bird anyway. > Do we want this board to only report Herring Gull's except of course when a Ross' Gull shows up! > That would need to be kept secret. > > Good birding, > > David Speiser > www.lilibirds.com > > > Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 06:14:22 -0800 > From: catbirder1 AT yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it > To: nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu > > > To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I remember one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at Jones Beach a few years ago.... I even took one of my kids out of school so he could see this beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the beach that day! We saw both of them!). The first, "poster bird" was sitting on a dune, with at least a half dozen photographers snapping away at a distance of about 15 feet. Maybe not even that. Unbelievable but true. The second bird was more skittish and was sitting by itself, closer to the beach. However, as my son and I were watching it, a jogger running along the beach passed it too closely (not seeing the bird) and the owl flushed, flying overhead and away. You just can't win! > > > I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery slope....first owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, or other rare bird.... who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)? > > > Keeping sightings limited to "word of mouth" severely restricts who sees what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club of sorts - with only the elite "inner circle" allowed to participate. I for one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't like birding in a crowd. I know a few "key" people but nobody really well. Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area just to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird. > > > There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to the photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence around these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even license plates) of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's not worth their while to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the occasional bird may suffer an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think that's better than a whole lot of decent, good folks losing out on something really special. > > > have a great day! > > Cindy Wodinsky > > -- > > NYSbirds-L List Info: > > Welcome and Basics > > Rules and Information > > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > > Archives: > > The Mail Archive > > Surfbirds > > BirdingOnThe.Net > > Please submit your observations to eBird! > > -- > > -- > > NYSbirds-L List Info: > > Welcome and Basics > > Rules and Information > > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > > Archives: > > The Mail Archive > > Surfbirds > > BirdingOnThe.Net > > Please submit your observations to eBird! > > -- > > > > > -- > > -Sam > > > (917) 209-2566 > AT surfbird917 > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/pasurfbird/ > > > > -- > > NYSbirds-L List Info: > > Welcome and Basics > > Rules and Information > > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > > Archives: > > The Mail Archive > > Surfbirds > > BirdingOnThe.Net > > Please submit your observations to eBird! > > -- > > -- > NYSbirds-L List Info: > Welcome and Basics > Rules and Information > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > Archives: > The Mail Archive > Surfbirds > BirdingOnThe.Net > Please submit your observations to eBird! > -- > -- > NYSbirds-L List Info: > Welcome and Basics > Rules and Information > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > Archives: > The Mail Archive > Surfbirds > BirdingOnThe.Net > Please submit your observations to eBird! > -- > > -- > NYSbirds-L List Info: > Welcome and Basics > Rules and Information > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > Archives: > The Mail Archive > Surfbirds > BirdingOnThe.Net > Please submit your observations to eBird! > -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Re: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
From: Felipe Pimentel <fpimentel AT verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 12:52:12 -0500

The issue should not be one of "them against us" since that would not help at all. As a birder and as a photographer, I am concerned that these issues will have negative repercussions on the social interactions between us in the field. BTW, most of the bird photographers that I know are not "professional" but people who enjoy spending time shooting pictures of birds. Regarding the issue of reporting owl sightings, I stopped doing that after an unpleasant experience reporting the location of a Barred Owl that I saw in Central Park. Last week I saw a single Long-eared Owl roosting on a pine in Hunter Island (Pelham Bay Park). The bird was pretty high on a pine and well camouflaged to get a clear shot and I did not even try to get a picture. I wanted to report the sighting but I did not know how to do it without being too specific and explicit about the location and I did not even bother to do it to avoid arguments with other birders. FP On Feb 6, 2012, at 12:22 PM, Nadine Scarpa wrote: > On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:13 PM, Mark Barriger wrote: > > "My attitude is if your serious about photographing owls and your serious about observing them then spend more time out looking for them and less time checking online for other people sightings." > > So lets go ahead and punish the folks who are serious about observing birds, yet have full time jobs, families, and other commitments and don't have time to go out looking for birds on a full-time basis. > > Sure - that's it! > > This thread is becoming an "us" against "them" thread - the "professional" birders versus the folks who love birds, and love watching them, yet cannot spend all day out in the field. > > It's getting ridiculous. > This topic is going on in most States right now because of the number of Snowy Owls moving down. I think singling out the photographers is wrong but honestly at least three quarters of the time when I see a "birder" make a dumb controversial decision he/she usually has a camera present. Not even just with owls but with birds in general. Here is my one quick example. > A few weeks back I visited a house in Madison, CT to see a Yellow-throated Warbler. Most birders stood back and to the side and waited for the Warbler to come in but we had to move our positions to see the feeders because two photographers showed up, walked 8-10 ft from the feeder, and set up right in front of us. (a) no consideration to the birders present, (b) no consideration to the tenants that lived there and (c) no consideration to the bird itself. All they cared about was getting that shot. > I read a posting somewhere from a birder/photographer who was upset at what he witnessed while trying to photograph an Owl. I guess someone showed up and released a mouse so that they could get a few flight shots. This person wasn't mad because it might result in hurting the Owl itself BUT instead went on to talk about how this kind of action was causing the value in his flight shots to drop. Glad to see that his priorities were in order! > Most birders that I know don't report Owls and it's been that way for years and I have to say that I'm more surprised when I see people reporting Owls because 90% of the time it turns into a mess. Whether it's photographers or birders the fact is owls atract and when that happens nothing good ever comes out of it. Over the past two weeks I have been watching Barred, Saw-whet, and a Snowy Owl here in Connecticut and all have remained in the same areas because nobody knows about them and nobody bothers them. > My attitude is if your serious about photographing owls and your serious about observing them then spend more time out looking for them and less time checking online for other people sightings. > > > Mark Barriger > Wallingford, CT > > > > > From: lloyd AT lloydspitalnikphotos.com > To: NYSbirds-l AT cornell.edu > CC: nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu > Subject: RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it > Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 10:38:29 -0500 > > > Hi all, > > I was going to stay out of this thread because it’s an impossible situation. I come from 3 directions. I’m a long time birder, a professional wildlife photographer and a listowner of Metro Birding Briefs. As a listowner I’ve always discouraged posting of specific owl locations. Letting people know there’s a Barred Owl in Central Park is fine but saying it’s at lamppost 7902 isn’t. Likewise, a Snowy Owl is being seen at Breezy Point, OK but telling people it’s in the third dune back, not as good. I personally believe that self-policing is the best solution. Just a week or so ago, I was at Jones Beach photographing the white Snowy Owl when somebody started approaching the owl in a quick herky jerky manner. Of course, the owl flew. I was the first to get to its new location and kind of set up a line where the owl wasn’t disturbed but close enough to take photos. The offending photographer arriver shortly after and started doing the same thing again. I told him he needed to stop and explained what he was doing was wrong. He listened, stayed a few more hours and never abused the bird again. > > There are ways of making your point without being confrontational that are effective. There are also ways of approaching an owl or any other bird without alarming it but it requires a lot of patience. I won’t go into the technique but I took over 4000 images of “Whitey” and the bird always seemed quite serene. I haven’t really post many images but if you’re on Facebook I’m sure you can find a few. > > Educating new birders and photographers is essential as well as self-policing. Just my 3 cents. > > > All the best, > > Lloyd > > Lloyd Spitalnik Photography > > www.lloydspitalnikphotos.com > > > From: bounce-39536371-10711063 AT list.cornell.edu [mailto:bounce-39536371-10711063 AT list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Sam Stuart > Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 10:19 AM > To: david speiser > Cc: NYS Birds > Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it > > > All, > > > We are responsible for the sightings we make and the people we share those with. It is important to balance the need for documenting rare and irregular species vs. our desire to share these excellent sightings with others. This is especially true when dealing with sightings of territorial and sedentary species that are more susceptible to disturbances. These species should probably be documented on eBird (www.eBird.org) and the NY State Avian Records Committee (http://nybirds.org/NYSARC/nysarcform2.htm) rather than the list serve. > > > > > Thanks, > > Sam Stuart > > > > > On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 10:08 AM, david speiser wrote: > > I too agree with Cindy's summation. > The birding community as a whole should not turn into insular cliques that make it easy > not to report when you know you will hear about the bird anyway. > Do we want this board to only report Herring Gull's except of course when a Ross' Gull shows up! > That would need to be kept secret. > > Good birding, > > David Speiser > www.lilibirds.com > > > Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 06:14:22 -0800 > From: catbirder1 AT yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it > To: nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu > > > To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I remember one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at Jones Beach a few years ago.... I even took one of my kids out of school so he could see this beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the beach that day! We saw both of them!). The first, "poster bird" was sitting on a dune, with at least a half dozen photographers snapping away at a distance of about 15 feet. Maybe not even that. Unbelievable but true. The second bird was more skittish and was sitting by itself, closer to the beach. However, as my son and I were watching it, a jogger running along the beach passed it too closely (not seeing the bird) and the owl flushed, flying overhead and away. You just can't win! > > > I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery slope....first owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, or other rare bird.... who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)? > > > Keeping sightings limited to "word of mouth" severely restricts who sees what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club of sorts - with only the elite "inner circle" allowed to participate. I for one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't like birding in a crowd. I know a few "key" people but nobody really well. Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area just to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird. > > > There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to the photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence around these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even license plates) of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's not worth their while to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the occasional bird may suffer an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think that's better than a whole lot of decent, good folks losing out on something really special. > > > have a great day! > > Cindy Wodinsky > > -- > > NYSbirds-L List Info: > > Welcome and Basics > > Rules and Information > > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > > Archives: > > The Mail Archive > > Surfbirds > > BirdingOnThe.Net > > Please submit your observations to eBird! > > -- > > -- > > NYSbirds-L List Info: > > Welcome and Basics > > Rules and Information > > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > > Archives: > > The Mail Archive > > Surfbirds > > BirdingOnThe.Net > > Please submit your observations to eBird! > > -- > > > > > -- > > -Sam > > > (917) 209-2566 > AT surfbird917 > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/pasurfbird/ > > > > -- > > NYSbirds-L List Info: > > Welcome and Basics > > Rules and Information > > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > > Archives: > > The Mail Archive > > Surfbirds > > BirdingOnThe.Net > > Please submit your observations to eBird! > > -- > > -- > NYSbirds-L List Info: > Welcome and Basics > Rules and Information > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > Archives: > The Mail Archive > Surfbirds > BirdingOnThe.Net > Please submit your observations to eBird! > -- > -- > NYSbirds-L List Info: > Welcome and Basics > Rules and Information > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > Archives: > The Mail Archive > Surfbirds > BirdingOnThe.Net > Please submit your observations to eBird! > -- > > -- > NYSbirds-L List Info: > Welcome and Basics > Rules and Information > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > Archives: > The Mail Archive > Surfbirds > BirdingOnThe.Net > Please submit your observations to eBird! > -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Re: ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds
From: Fred Baumgarten <fredbee.eater AT gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 12:38:56 -0500

I like Peter's posting and would like to add a few thoughts. Maybe I'm missing something, but the question that doesn't seem to be fully addressed is: What do we do about it? Keeping sightings off the listserves is one solution, but one that a lot of people, myself included, have difficulty with. As others have pointed out, it fosters an attitude of elitism and exclusivity that many have tried to overcome in the birding community. Moreover, I'm not convinced it would make that big a difference. There is an implication here that those who get sightings off a listserve are somehow inherently less respectful birders. I'm not buying that. Just because I read about an owl online rather than go trekking to Jones Beach, say, to look for one myself isn't going to change the way I go about looking at the bird. (That is to say, hopefully with respect.) You could argue that posting increases the numbers, and thereby increases the chances of malfeasance. Maybe. But I'm not convinced other channels wouldn't have the same effect. If a Snowy Owl showed up at Breezy Point, word would travel, listserve or not. And to the person who suggested posting the general area, not the specific dune, that just seems pointless to me. Having to search far and wide makes one more respectful than zeroing in on the spot? There's also an ancillary benefit to the postings, in my opinion. I like to know! 99% of the time I don't get out to look for the bird myself, but it excites me to know what's going on in the world of birding and rarities. I'm intrigued by the photographer/birder who says he gets within 15 feet (or yards, I can't remember which) of the owl, and that's enough to keep the bird from flushing. How does he decide what the "correct" distance is? Is he still walking through fragile dunes to get to his mythical line? While I have no bias against photographers vs. birders, might we admit that to get a good shot, a professional or amateur photographer has to approach a bird considerably closer than a birder to get a "satisfactory" shot/look? So we are back to the question of what do we do? The problem is not going to go away on its own. Another source of confusion: What are we trying to protect? The habitat, the bird, or every birder's right at having a fair chance of seeing the bird? Or all three? The conditions for each may be very different. If the dunes at Breezy Point are closed off to protect the habitat, then the solution is to enforce those boundaries absolutely, and maybe we need to find out how we can enhance enforcement. I suggest, as have others, that ultimately the answer lies in educating ourselves and others in proper birding ethics and etiquette. We need to think creatively and without blaming about how to do this. Maybe birders out to see a Snowy Owl can bring a sign with them that explains the proper viewing distance and behavior. Maybe we need to somehow designate "captains" to regulate viewing, and at least provide powerful viewing equipment for visitors to share. Maybe we need to have designated times when photographers can go closer for shots. I don't know. But we need to keep working for solutions, together, constructively. --Fred-- Fred Baumgarten Sharon, CT/Westchester, NY And Points In-between fredbee.eater AT gmail.com On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Peter Priolo wrote: > List Members: > > I am a recent subscriber of this list-serve. Having read some but not all > of the comments and opinions on the encroachment of birds for whatever the > motive, I have decided to share some points. From my relative outside > perspective, I see this issue to be one of great controversy and I feel a > sort of unrest among a community of people who may actually all be on the > same side. I want to try to make a point that the state of the birds and > our shared environment will be better stewarded to if we are to unite in > our efforts. I mean to say we are attacking ourselves, pointing the finger > in the mirror. > > Motivated by a recent statement made by the president of the ABA, I > think that those of us who are personally capable of doing so, should > educate others while birding in the field. The intention of the comment > was to turn non-birders on to birding, but this can apply to those who are > already introduced to birds but maybe not aware of their ethical birding > offenses. Some offenders may be well aware of their offenses I understand. > But I think the state of the birds will be more sustainable in the long > run if we spread the special yearning, love, investment, wonder, research, > and compassion for these taxon to more and more people in the world. *It > will hurt birds if birders assault each other.* Birders are a minority > to begin with, we need to grow our efforts. Some photographers may be more > owl-like than owls themselves, but in most Snowy Owl photos I have seen, > the owl had been looking directly at the lens implying the photographer is > conspicuous to some level, but; it is the look of those bright eskimo eyes > looking back at me on the post card or request for donation that encourage > me to take *positive action*. For example, I posted a sighting this past > weekend and someone traveling from NYC to Long Island saw the post, viewed > the species, and sent me a thank you email. The viewpoint to see the birds > was one of appropriateness and I believe no threat to the birds occurred. > As a result, the passion for birds was spread among us. > > Many birders, whether hobbyist, ornithologist, photographers, > conservation/preservation, PhD or 13 years old, etc.- *we all* have some > interest in birding that can lead to the *further* preservation, > protection, discovery, knowledge, fund raising, support, > emotional/recreational/spiritual related advancement of our worlds* birds > and their environment*. > > Among other things, I am a naturalist, a birder, a photographer, a living > spiritual being affected by many issues related to our avian communities > and their and our environment. I don't want to be criticized or confronted > by a polarized crowd of peers demanding me to chose a side for having both > a camera and a spotting scope in the field. We are on the same side. Yes I > have flushed birds in pursuit of a fleeting opportunity that I had maybe > been caught up in for various reasons whether adrenaline, obsession, > emotion, curiosity, data collection, accidental etc. And I have felt the > human side of remorse and regret as a result of maybe flushing an apex > predator. What effect (energy conservation or intake from feeding for > example) does flushing a relatively few birds, when compared to the > regional population of that species, have on that species population in the > long run? I'm not sure. It obviously affects birders. > > Peter Priolo > Center Moriches > > > > -- > *NYSbirds-L List Info:* > Welcome and Basics > Rules and Information > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > *Archives:* > The Mail Archive > Surfbirds > BirdingOnThe.Net > *Please submit your observations to **eBird* > *!* > -- > -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Re: Photographer problem at Breezy Point
From: Nadine Scarpa <nadinescarpahomes AT gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 12:27:45 -0500

Scotty - Your statement is beyond ridiculous. On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:25 PM, scotty607 AT aol.com wrote: > If your a good birder, then u should know your locations for finding > birds. Hiking is supposed to be part of the fun but its lost with the > public. Posting rare birds locations online is stupid. Everyone will want > to see and word will be spread. Keep it secret, keep it sacred and keep > the unwanted away from these locations. People ate coming from put of state > now. You are all to blame. > > Sent from my HTC on the Now Network from Sprint! > > ----- Reply message ----- > From: "Nadine Scarpa" > Date: Mon, Feb 6, 2012 10:56 am > Subject: [nysbirds-l] Photographer problem at Breezy Point > To: > > I was just about to post the same question about purpose, since the group > rules state: > > > "The primary purpose of the List is to disseminate information about wild > bird sightings in and around New York State in a timely manner and to > provide an effective electronic forum for New York State area birders." > > > > Instead of having respectful and ethical birders miss the opportunity to > see rare birds, we apparently need to police our own. > > > > I also know that the ethics of birding also calls for using discretion > when revealing locations of rarities. It would be unwise to post location > information to a generic website, but isn't that what this list is really > for? > > > > I have seen as many "birders" as other clueless folks get too close to > birds, or cross onto private property, or just behave badly when trying to > see a rarity. > > > > I treasure this list, and others like it, that allow folks to see birds > they wouldn't normally know about, or get to see in their lifetime! I've > also done my share of reporting the folks who either break rules or laws in > the course of trying to see a bird. I will continue to do that, and I hope > to also continue learning about the rarities and other information from > this list. > > > > I hope the location posts continue. It would be sad to deprive the "good" > birders of this information. > > > > Nadine > > On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:09 AM, Jim Osterlund wrote: > >> I wonder, then; what purpose does this list serve? >> >> >> >> -- >> >> NYSbirds-L List Info: >> http://www.NortheastBirding.**com/NYSbirdsWELCOME >> http://www.NortheastBirding.**com/NYSbirdsRULES >> http://www.NortheastBirding.**com/**NYSbirdsSubscribeConfiguration** >> Leave.htm >> >> ARCHIVES: >> 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/**nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/**maillist.html >> 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/**birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L >> 3) http://birdingonthe.net/**mailinglists/NYSB.html >> >> Please submit your observations to eBird: >> http://ebird.org/content/**ebird/ >> >> -- >> > > -- > *NYSbirds-L List Info:* > Welcome and Basics > Rules and Information > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > *Archives:* > The Mail Archive > Surfbirds > BirdingOnThe.Net > *Please submit your observations to **eBird* > *!* > Re: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it [Nadine Scarpa ]
--> Subject: Re: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
From: Nadine Scarpa <nadinescarpahomes AT gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 12:22:05 -0500

On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:13 PM, Mark Barriger wrote: "My attitude is if your serious about photographing owls and your serious about observing them then spend more time out looking for them and less time checking online for other people sightings." So lets go ahead and punish the folks who are serious about observing birds, yet have full time jobs, families, and other commitments and don't have time to go out looking for birds on a full-time basis. Sure - that's it! This thread is becoming an "us" against "them" thread - the "professional" birders versus the folks who love birds, and love watching them, yet cannot spend all day out in the field. It's getting ridiculous. > This topic is going on in most States right now because of the number > of Snowy Owls moving down. I think singling out the photographers is wrong > but honestly at least three quarters of the time when I see a "birder" make > a dumb controversial decision he/she usually has a camera present. Not even > just with owls but with birds in general. Here is my one quick example. > A few weeks back I visited a house in Madison, CT to see a Yellow-throated > Warbler. Most birders stood back and to the side and waited for the Warbler > to come in but we had to move our positions to see the feeders because two > photographers showed up, walked 8-10 ft from the feeder, and set up right > in front of us. (a) no consideration to the birders present, (b) no > consideration to the tenants that lived there and (c) no consideration to > the bird itself. All they cared about was getting that shot. > I read a posting somewhere from a birder/photographer who was upset at > what he witnessed while trying to photograph an Owl. I guess someone showed > up and released a mouse so that they could get a few flight shots. This > person wasn't mad because it might result in hurting the Owl itself BUT > instead went on to talk about how this kind of action was causing the value > in his flight shots to drop. Glad to see that his priorities were in order! > Most birders that I know don't report Owls and it's been that way for > years and I have to say that I'm more surprised when I see people reporting > Owls because 90% of the time it turns into a mess. Whether it's > photographers or birders the fact is owls atract and when that happens > nothing good ever comes out of it. Over the past two weeks I have been > watching Barred, Saw-whet, and a Snowy Owl here in Connecticut and all have > remained in the same areas because nobody knows about them and nobody > bothers them. > My attitude is if your serious about photographing owls and your serious > about observing them then spend more time out looking for them and less > time checking online for other people sightings. > > > *Mark Barriger > Wallingford, CT* > > > > > ------------------------------ > From: lloyd AT lloydspitalnikphotos.com > To: NYSbirds-l AT cornell.edu > CC: nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu > Subject: RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't > get it > Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 10:38:29 -0500 > > > Hi all, > > I was going to stay out of this thread because it’s an impossible > situation. I come from 3 directions. I’m a long time birder, a professional > wildlife photographer and a listowner of Metro Birding Briefs. As a > listowner I’ve always discouraged posting of specific owl locations. > Letting people know there’s a Barred Owl in Central Park is fine but saying > it’s at lamppost 7902 isn’t. Likewise, a Snowy Owl is being seen at Breezy > Point, OK but telling people it’s in the third dune back, not as good. I > personally believe that self-policing is the best solution. Just a week or > so ago, I was at Jones Beach photographing the white Snowy Owl when > somebody started approaching the owl in a quick herky jerky manner. Of > course, the owl flew. I was the first to get to its new location and kind > of set up a line where the owl wasn’t disturbed but close enough to take > photos. The offending photographer arriver shortly after and started doing > the same thing again. I told him he needed to stop and explained what he > was doing was wrong. He listened, stayed a few more hours and never abused > the bird again. > > There are ways of making your point without being confrontational that are > effective. There are also ways of approaching an owl or any other bird > without alarming it but it requires a lot of patience. I won’t go into the > technique but I took over 4000 images of “Whitey” and the bird always > seemed quite serene. I haven’t really post many images but if you’re on > Facebook I’m sure you can find a few. > > Educating new birders and photographers is essential as well as > self-policing. Just my 3 cents. > > > > All the best, > > Lloyd > > Lloyd Spitalnik Photography > > www.lloydspitalnikphotos.com > > > > *From:* bounce-39536371-10711063 AT list.cornell.edu [mailto: > bounce-39536371-10711063 AT list.cornell.edu] *On Behalf Of *Sam Stuart > *Sent:* Monday, February 06, 2012 10:19 AM > *To:* david speiser > *Cc:* NYS Birds > *Subject:* Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't > get it > > > > All, > > > > We are responsible for the sightings we make and the people we share those > with. It is important to balance the need for documenting rare and > irregular species vs. our desire to share these excellent sightings with > others. This is especially true when dealing with sightings of territorial > and sedentary species that are more susceptible to disturbances. These > species should probably be documented on eBird (www.eBird.org) > and the NY State Avian Records Committee ( > http://nybirds.org/NYSARC/nysarcform2.htm) rather than the list serve. > > > > > Thanks, > > Sam Stuart > > > > > On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 10:08 AM, david speiser > wrote: > > I too agree with Cindy's summation. > The birding community as a whole should not turn into insular cliques that > make it easy > not to report when you know you will hear about the bird anyway. > Do we want this board to only report Herring Gull's except of course when > a Ross' Gull shows up! > That would need to be kept secret. > > Good birding, > > David Speiser > www.lilibirds.com > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 06:14:22 -0800 > From: catbirder1 AT yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't > get it > To: nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu > > > > To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen > photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I > remember one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at > Jones Beach a few years ago.... I even took one of my kids out of school so > he could see this beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the > beach that day! We saw both of them!). The first, "poster bird" was sitting > on a dune, with at least a half dozen photographers snapping away at a > distance of about 15 feet. Maybe not even that. Unbelievable but true. The > second bird was more skittish and was sitting by itself, closer to the > beach. However, as my son and I were watching it, a jogger running along > the beach passed it too closely (not seeing the bird) and the owl flushed, > flying overhead and away. You just can't win! > > > > I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding > listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery > slope....first owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, > or other rare bird.... who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or > birder (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own > back yard!), will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off > and ruin the experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the > bird!)? > > > > Keeping sightings limited to "word of mouth" severely restricts who sees > what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private > club of sorts - with only the elite "inner circle" allowed to participate. > I for one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out > for rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually > don't like birding in a crowd. I know a few "key" people but nobody really > well. Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other > respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area > just to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird. > > > > There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless > joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to > the photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence > around these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even > license plates) of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's > not worth their while to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the > occasional bird may suffer an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think > that's better than a whole lot of decent, good folks losing out on > something really special. > > > > have a great day! > > Cindy Wodinsky > > -- > > *NYSbirds-L List Info:* > > Welcome and Basics > > Rules and Information > > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > > *Archives:* > > The Mail Archive > > Surfbirds > > BirdingOnThe.Net > > *Please submit your observations to **eBird* > *!* > > -- > > -- > > *NYSbirds-L List Info:* > > Welcome and Basics > > Rules and Information > > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > > *Archives:* > > The Mail Archive > > Surfbirds > > BirdingOnThe.Net > > *Please submit your observations to **eBird* > *!* > > -- > > > > > -- > > -Sam > > > > (917) 209-2566 > AT surfbird917 > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/pasurfbird/ > > > > > > -- > > *NYSbirds-L List Info:* > > Welcome and Basics > > Rules and Information > > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > > *Archives:* > > The Mail Archive > > Surfbirds > > BirdingOnThe.Net > > *Please submit your observations to **eBird* > *!* > > -- > -- > *NYSbirds-L List Info:* > Welcome and Basics > Rules and Information > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > *Archives:* > The Mail Archive > Surfbirds > BirdingOnThe.Net > *Please submit your observations to **eBird* > *!* > -- > -- > *NYSbirds-L List Info:* > Welcome and Basics > Rules and Information > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > *Archives:* > The Mail Archive > Surfbirds > BirdingOnThe.Net > *Please submit your observations to **eBird* > *!* > -- > -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: a reality check
From: Diana Teta <dteta AT suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 12:19:23 -0500

In any profession, sport, hobby, occupation business, or whatever, there are people who do "bad" things at the expense of others. Some are good people who should know better and some are just bad people. The assumption that may be in error is people learn from their mistakes or from feedback on their behavior. How long has this debate/conflict about bad behavior on birders or photographers part been occurring? Literally years and years. The learning curve appears to be flat. Many cry foul when rules, conditions, limits are established yet will not take accountability for the lack of change in an issue. Diana Teta \Long Island, NY -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds
From: Peter Priolo <priolopeter AT hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 12:17:33 -0500

List Members: I am a recent subscriber of this list-serve. Having read some but not all of the comments and opinions on the encroachment of birds for whatever the motive, I have decided to share some points. From my relative outside perspective, I see this issue to be one of great controversy and I feel a sort of unrest among a community of people who may actually all be on the same side. I want to try to make a point that the state of the birds and our shared environment will be better stewarded to if we are to unite in our efforts. I mean to say we are attacking ourselves, pointing the finger in the mirror. Motivated by a recent statement made by the president of the ABA, I think that those of us who are personally capable of doing so, should educate others while birding in the field. The intention of the comment was to turn non-birders on to birding, but this can apply to those who are already introduced to birds but maybe not aware of their ethical birding offenses. Some offenders may be well aware of their offenses I understand. But I think the state of the birds will be more sustainable in the long run if we spread the special yearning, love, investment, wonder, research, and compassion for these taxon to more and more people in the world. It will hurt birds if birders assault each other. Birders are a minority to begin with, we need to grow our efforts. Some photographers may be more owl-like than owls themselves, but in most Snowy Owl photos I have seen, the owl had been looking directly at the lens implying the photographer is conspicuous to some level, but; it is the look of those bright eskimo eyes looking back at me on the post card or request for donation that encourage me to take positive action. For example, I posted a sighting this past weekend and someone traveling from NYC to Long Island saw the post, viewed the species, and sent me a thank you email. The viewpoint to see the birds was one of appropriateness and I believe no threat to the birds occurred. As a result, the passion for birds was spread among us. Many birders, whether hobbyist, ornithologist, photographers, conservation/preservation, PhD or 13 years old, etc.- we all have some interest in birding that can lead to the further preservation, protection, discovery, knowledge, fund raising, support, emotional/recreational/spiritual related advancement of our worlds birds and their environment. Among other things, I am a naturalist, a birder, a photographer, a living spiritual being affected by many issues related to our avian communities and their and our environment. I don't want to be criticized or confronted by a polarized crowd of peers demanding me to chose a side for having both a camera and a spotting scope in the field. We are on the same side. Yes I have flushed birds in pursuit of a fleeting opportunity that I had maybe been caught up in for various reasons whether adrenaline, obsession, emotion, curiosity, data collection, accidental etc. And I have felt the human side of remorse and regret as a result of maybe flushing an apex predator. What effect (energy conservation or intake from feeding for example) does flushing a relatively few birds, when compared to the regional population of that species, have on that species population in the long run? I'm not sure. It obviously affects birders. Peter PrioloCenter Moriches -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: RE: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
From: Mark Barriger <mark8bud8 AT hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 12:13:18 -0500

This topic is going on in most States right now because of the number of Snowy Owls moving down. I think singling out the photographers is wrong but honestly at least three quarters of the time when I see a "birder" make a dumb controversial decision he/she usually has a camera present. Not even just with owls but with birds in general. Here is my one quick example. A few weeks back I visited a house in Madison, CT to see a Yellow-throated Warbler. Most birders stood back and to the side and waited for the Warbler to come in but we had to move our positions to see the feeders because two photographers showed up, walked 8-10 ft from the feeder, and set up right in front of us. (a) no consideration to the birders present, (b) no consideration to the tenants that lived there and (c) no consideration to the bird itself. All they cared about was getting that shot. I read a posting somewhere from a birder/photographer who was upset at what he witnessed while trying to photograph an Owl. I guess someone showed up and released a mouse so that they could get a few flight shots. This person wasn't mad because it might result in hurting the Owl itself BUT instead went on to talk about how this kind of action was causing the value in his flight shots to drop. Glad to see that his priorities were in order! Most birders that I know don't report Owls and it's been that way for years and I have to say that I'm more surprised when I see people reporting Owls because 90% of the time it turns into a mess. Whether it's photographers or birders the fact is owls atract and when that happens nothing good ever comes out of it. Over the past two weeks I have been watching Barred, Saw-whet, and a Snowy Owl here in Connecticut and all have remained in the same areas because nobody knows about them and nobody bothers them. My attitude is if your serious about photographing owls and your serious about observing them then spend more time out looking for them and less time checking online for other people sightings. Mark Barriger Wallingford, CT From: lloyd AT lloydspitalnikphotos.com To: NYSbirds-l AT cornell.edu CC: nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu Subject: RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 10:38:29 -0500 Hi all, I was going to stay out of this thread because it’s an impossible situation. I come from 3 directions. I’m a long time birder, a professional wildlife photographer and a listowner of Metro Birding Briefs. As a listowner I’ve always discouraged posting of specific owl locations. Letting people know there’s a Barred Owl in Central Park is fine but saying it’s at lamppost 7902 isn’t. Likewise, a Snowy Owl is being seen at Breezy Point, OK but telling people it’s in the third dune back, not as good. I personally believe that self-policing is the best solution. Just a week or so ago, I was at Jones Beach photographing the white Snowy Owl when somebody started approaching the owl in a quick herky jerky manner. Of course, the owl flew. I was the first to get to its new location and kind of set up a line where the owl wasn’t disturbed but close enough to take photos. The offending photographer arriver shortly after and started doing the same thing again. I told him he needed to stop and explained what he was doing was wrong. He listened, stayed a few more hours and never abused the bird again. There are ways of making your point without being confrontational that are effective. There are also ways of approaching an owl or any other bird without alarming it but it requires a lot of patience. I won’t go into the technique but I took over 4000 images of “Whitey” and the bird always seemed quite serene. I haven’t really post many images but if you’re on Facebook I’m sure you can find a few. Educating new birders and photographers is essential as well as self-policing. Just my 3 cents. All the best, Lloyd Lloyd Spitalnik Photography www.lloydspitalnikphotos.com From: bounce-39536371-10711063 AT list.cornell.edu [mailto:bounce-39536371-10711063 AT list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Sam Stuart Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 10:19 AM To: david speiser Cc: NYS Birds Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it All, We are responsible for the sightings we make and the people we share those with. It is important to balance the need for documenting rare and irregular species vs. our desire to share these excellent sightings with others. This is especially true when dealing with sightings of territorial and sedentary species that are more susceptible to disturbances. These species should probably be documented on eBird (www.eBird.org) and the NY State Avian Records Committee (http://nybirds.org/NYSARC/nysarcform2.htm) rather than the list serve. Thanks, Sam Stuart On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 10:08 AM, david speiser wrote: I too agree with Cindy's summation. The birding community as a whole should not turn into insular cliques that make it easy not to report when you know you will hear about the bird anyway. Do we want this board to only report Herring Gull's except of course when a Ross' Gull shows up! That would need to be kept secret. Good birding, David Speiser www.lilibirds.com Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 06:14:22 -0800 From: catbirder1 AT yahoo.com Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it To: nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I remember one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at Jones Beach a few years ago.... I even took one of my kids out of school so he could see this beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the beach that day! We saw both of them!). The first, "poster bird" was sitting on a dune, with at least a half dozen photographers snapping away at a distance of about 15 feet. Maybe not even that. Unbelievable but true. The second bird was more skittish and was sitting by itself, closer to the beach. However, as my son and I were watching it, a jogger running along the beach passed it too closely (not seeing the bird) and the owl flushed, flying overhead and away. You just can't win! I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery slope....first owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, or other rare bird.... who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)? Keeping sightings limited to "word of mouth" severely restricts who sees what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club of sorts - with only the elite "inner circle" allowed to participate. I for one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't like birding in a crowd. I know a few "key" people but nobody really well. Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area just to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird. There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to the photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence around these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even license plates) of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's not worth their while to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the occasional bird may suffer an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think that's better than a whole lot of decent, good folks losing out on something really special. have a great day! Cindy Wodinsky -- NYSbirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basics Rules and Information Subscribe, Configuration and Leave Archives: The Mail Archive Surfbirds BirdingOnThe.Net Please submit your observations to eBird! -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basics Rules and Information Subscribe, Configuration and Leave Archives: The Mail Archive Surfbirds BirdingOnThe.Net Please submit your observations to eBird! -- -- -Sam (917) 209-2566 AT surfbird917 http://www.flickr.com/photos/pasurfbird/ -- NYSbirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basics Rules and Information Subscribe, Configuration and Leave Archives: The Mail Archive Surfbirds BirdingOnThe.Net Please submit your observations to eBird! -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basics Rules and Information Subscribe, Configuration and Leave Archives: The Mail Archive Surfbirds BirdingOnThe.Net Please submit your observations to eBird! -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Lewis woodpecker an apology
From: Diana Teta <dteta AT suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 12:09:15 -0500

Sorry I wrote in the wrong woodpecker, but the sentiments remain the same. Thanks for the correction sent to me. Diana Teta\ Long Island, NY -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Fwd: Photographer problem at Breezy Point
From: Jim Osterlund <jamesost AT optonline.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 11:49:31 -0500

Sent to me directly, by mistake; Begin forwarded message: From: scotty607 AT aol.com Date: February 6, 2012 7:12:36 AM EST To: Jim Osterlund Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Photographer problem at Breezy Point It serves the ignorant, the lazy, and the the followers that have nothing better to do with there lives but annoy the professionals. This is the 1st year I had to endure women talking about car payments and mortgages out on wildlife walks. And the 1st year I have watched people yell across the dunes to get the birds attention. All I hear these days is talking when I should hear silence with wind and the waves crashing. This list has ruined the experience for many. And it's not worth it! Sorry for the reality check. Sent from my HTC on the Now Network from Sprint! ----- Reply message ----- From: "Jim Osterlund" Date: Mon, Feb 6, 2012 12:09 am Subject: [nysbirds-l] Photographer problem at Breezy Point To: I wonder, then; what purpose does this list serve? -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Jamaica Bay Wildlife Refuge (JBWR) This Morning (Queens Co.)
From: ken feustel <feustel AT optonline.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 11:43:23 -0500

We arrived at JBWR at 6:45AM. We quickly located the Barrow's Goldeneye on the West Pond in the company of nearly one hundred Common Goldeneye. The Barrow's flew out to the bay (southwest direction) with the Common Goldeneye at 7:30AM. While searching through the rafts of waterfowl on the northwest side of the West Pond a Virginia Rail made an appearance in an opening in the Phragmites. We then headed over to the East Pond where we missed the Eurasian Wigeon, although twenty-six American Wigeon were at the south end of the pond. We also observed a second winter Iceland Gull on the East Pond. On a related bird note, on Sunday morning at Sunken Meadow State Park there were eighteen Great Egrets feeding in Sunken Meadow Creek west of the foot bridge. Ken & Sue Feustel -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Re: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
From: Felipe Pimentel <fpimentel AT verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 11:33:58 -0500

I share David's and Cindy's views about the issue of restricting information about bird sightings. Before the time of the Internet (before the 1990s) birders got info about bird sightings mostly through phone calls. At that time, the number of active birders (or bird watchers was smaller than today). The significant increase in the number of birders (and bird photographers) has had positive and negative consequences. I will not repeat some of the so-called “negative” consequences since others have pointed out what they are. On the positive side, because their involvement in birding there are more people interested in wildlife and the environment and as concerned citizens they are important segment of the population that can be mobilized to protect these domains. According to survey data, during the past decade (2000-2010) about 48 million adults participated in different forms of bird watching in the United States. I am mentioning the data to argue against any silly idea of restricting information about birds to a small group of selected birders since that would not contribute to expand the interest on birds among those who may join us in the field. And, it will not work since there are always other ways to get the info. On the other hand, tensions and conflicts between birders and photographers will not disappear. However, we should try to minimize these tensions since we are going to share the same spaces and we are going to be in the field looking for the same birds. While bird watchers can see birds from a relative long distance (using powerful scopes and first class binoculars) photographers know that in order to get a quality picture of a bird they have to come much closer to the subject than the so-called traditional “birder” even when you use the most powerful lenses in this craft (lenses above 500mm). One exception would be digiscoping but that is not photography in the traditional sense of the word. In last instance, the dilemma is a trade-off between competing interests. When I am in the field taking pictures of birds (and there are traditional birders/bird watchers around) I do my best not to disturb what other birders are doing. I try not to use flash (even if sometimes there is not alternative) and I kept longer distances from birds (than when I am alone) and sometimes I don’t try to take the shot if I feel it could create potential problems with my colleagues in the field. When I started doing bird photography several years ago I made several mistakes but I have learned from them. That is the best thing you can do. Felipe On Feb 6, 2012, at 10:08 AM, david speiser wrote: > I too agree with Cindy's summation. > The birding community as a whole should not turn into insular cliques that make it easy > not to report when you know you will hear about the bird anyway. > Do we want this board to only report Herring Gull's except of course when a Ross' Gull shows up! > That would need to be kept secret. > > Good birding, > > David Speiser > www.lilibirds.com > > Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 06:14:22 -0800 > From: catbirder1 AT yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it > To: nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu > > To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I remember one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at Jones Beach a few years ago.... I even took one of my kids out of school so he could see this beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the beach that day! We saw both of them!). The first, "poster bird" was sitting on a dune, with at least a half dozen photographers snapping away at a distance of about 15 feet. Maybe not even that. Unbelievable but true. The second bird was more skittish and was sitting by itself, closer to the beach. However, as my son and I were watching it, a jogger running along the beach passed it too closely (not seeing the bird) and the owl flushed, flying overhead and away. You just can't win! > > I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery slope....first owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, or other rare bird.... who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)? > > Keeping sightings limited to "word of mouth" severely restricts who sees what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club of sorts - with only the elite "inner circle" allowed to participate. I for one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't like birding in a crowd. I know a few "key" people but nobody really well. Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area just to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird. > > There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to the photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence around these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even license plates) of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's not worth their while to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the occasional bird may suffer an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think that's better than a whole lot of decent, good folks losing out on something really special. > > have a great day! > Cindy Wodinsky > -- > NYSbirds-L List Info: > Welcome and Basics > Rules and Information > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > Archives: > The Mail Archive > Surfbirds > BirdingOnThe.Net > Please submit your observations to eBird! > -- > -- > NYSbirds-L List Info: > Welcome and Basics > Rules and Information > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > Archives: > The Mail Archive > Surfbirds > BirdingOnThe.Net > Please submit your observations to eBird! > -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Re: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
From: Dan <peterbilt.birder AT yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 11:19:20 -0500

Go find a rare bird. Sent from my iPhone4 Please, always leave a message, I screen every call. Thx. On Feb 6, 2012, at 9:14 AM, Cindy wrote: > To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I remember one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at Jones Beach a few years ago.... I even took one of my kids out of school so he could see this beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the beach that day! We saw both of them!). The first, "poster bird" was sitting on a dune, with at least a half dozen photographers snapping away at a distance of about 15 feet. Maybe not even that. Unbelievable but true. The second bird was more skittish and was sitting by itself, closer to the beach. However, as my son and I were watching it, a jogger running along the beach passed it too closely (not seeing the bird) and the owl flushed, flying overhead and away. You just can't win! > > I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery slope....first owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, or other rare bird.... who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)? > > Keeping sightings limited to "word of mouth" severely restricts who sees what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club of sorts - with only the elite "inner circle" allowed to participate. I for one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't like birding in a crowd. I know a few "key" people but nobody really well. Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area just to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird. > > There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to the photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence around these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even license plates) of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's not worth their while to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the occasional bird may suffer an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think that's better than a whole lot of decent, good folks losing out on something really special. > > have a great day! > Cindy Wodinsky > -- > NYSbirds-L List Info: > Welcome and Basics > Rules and Information > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > Archives: > The Mail Archive > Surfbirds > BirdingOnThe.Net > Please submit your observations to eBird! > -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Re: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
From: Nadine Scarpa <nadinescarpahomes AT gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 11:29:17 -0500

We use THIS list (and others) to get "in the loop". Not all of us have our days free to wander all over the state looking for rarities or trying to find other birders in the field to talk with to get "the scoop" on rarities. We have full-time jobs, families, and many other commitments, which is why this list (and others like it) allows us to see the many incredible rare birds that grace our us with their presence. On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 11:23 AM, Seth Ausubel wrote: > I agree that my position is unfortunate and inconvenient for many. But > posts on this list have a major impact. For example, I was out at Breezy > Point on Saturday. There were few birders and only one photographer when I > was there, and the owls were left in peace. Then, a post on NYSBirds, and, > well, we have seen the result on Sunday. I do NOT mean to single out the > person who posted, just to point out the consequences of the Listserv in > situations such as this. If someone wants to see a Snowy Owl they will > still have opportunities, though perhaps requiring more effort. I know > this is disadvantageous to many, but our responsibility is to the birds and > their habitat first. So to all, if you are not "in the loop", get out and > look. Talk to other birders. That's how you get in the loop. > > Seth > > On Feb 6, 2012, at 11:00 AM, Robert Lewis wrote: > > As a long-time resident and birder of New York state (more than 30 > years) I agree with Cindy. > > We must not fall into any extremist position. > > It would be beyond a shame to go back to the old "word of mouth" system, > when only a self-appointed elite knew about rarities. > > Respond appropriately to situations as they arise. No knee-jerk > reactions. That is the middle path. > > Bob Lewis > Sleepy Hollow NY > > > > > > --- On *Mon, 2/6/12, Cindy * wrote: > > > From: Cindy > Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't > get it > To: "NYS Birds" > Date: Monday, February 6, 2012, 9:14 AM > > .... > > I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding > listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery > slope....first owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, > or other rare bird.... who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or > birder (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own > back yard!), will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off > and ruin the experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the > bird!)? > > Keeping sightings limited to "word of mouth" severely restricts who sees > what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private > club of sorts - with only the elite "inner circle" allowed to participate. > I for one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out > for rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually > don't like birding in a crowd. I know a few "key" people but nobody really > well. Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other > respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area > just to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird. > > There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless > joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to > the photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence > around these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even > license plates) of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's > not worth their while to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the > occasional bird may suffer an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think > that's better than a whole lot of decent, good folks losing out on > something really special. > > have a great day! > Cindy Wodinsky > -- > *NYSbirds-L List Info:* > Welcome and Basics > Rules and Information > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > *Archives:* > The Mail Archive > Surfbirds > BirdingOnThe.Net > *Please submit your observations to **eBird* > *!* > -- > ... > > -- > *NYSbirds-L List Info:* > Welcome and Basics > Rules and Information > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > *Archives:* > The Mail Archive > Surfbirds > BirdingOnThe.Net > *Please submit your observations to **eBird* > *!* > -- > > > Seth Ausubel > Forest Hills, NY > > > > -- > *NYSbirds-L List Info:* > Welcome and Basics > Rules and Information > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > *Archives:* > The Mail Archive > Surfbirds > BirdingOnThe.Net > *Please submit your observations to **eBird* > *!* > -- > -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Re: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
From: Seth Ausubel <sausubel AT nyc.rr.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 11:23:40 -0500

I agree that my position is unfortunate and inconvenient for many. But posts on this list have a major impact. For example, I was out at Breezy Point on Saturday. There were few birders and only one photographer when I was there, and the owls were left in peace. Then, a post on NYSBirds, and, well, we have seen the result on Sunday. I do NOT mean to single out the person who posted, just to point out the consequences of the Listserv in situations such as this. If someone wants to see a Snowy Owl they will still have opportunities, though perhaps requiring more effort. I know this is disadvantageous to many, but our responsibility is to the birds and their habitat first. So to all, if you are not "in the loop", get out and look. Talk to other birders. That's how you get in the loop. Seth On Feb 6, 2012, at 11:00 AM, Robert Lewis wrote: > As a long-time resident and birder of New York state (more than 30 years) I agree with Cindy. > > We must not fall into any extremist position. > > It would be beyond a shame to go back to the old "word of mouth" system, when only a self-appointed elite knew about rarities. > > Respond appropriately to situations as they arise. No knee-jerk reactions. That is the middle path. > > Bob Lewis > Sleepy Hollow NY > > > > > > --- On Mon, 2/6/12, Cindy wrote: > > From: Cindy > Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it > To: "NYS Birds" > Date: Monday, February 6, 2012, 9:14 AM > > .... > > I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery slope....first owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, or other rare bird.... who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)? > > Keeping sightings limited to "word of mouth" severely restricts who sees what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club of sorts - with only the elite "inner circle" allowed to participate. I for one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't like birding in a crowd. I know a few "key" people but nobody really well. Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area just to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird. > > There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to the photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence around these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even license plates) of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's not worth their while to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the occasional bird may suffer an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think that's better than a whole lot of decent, good folks losing out on something really special. > > have a great day! > Cindy Wodinsky > -- > NYSbirds-L List Info: > Welcome and Basics > Rules and Information > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > Archives: > The Mail Archive > Surfbirds > BirdingOnThe.Net > Please submit your observations to eBird! > -- > ... > -- > NYSbirds-L List Info: > Welcome and Basics > Rules and Information > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > Archives: > The Mail Archive > Surfbirds > BirdingOnThe.Net > Please submit your observations to eBird! > -- Seth Ausubel Forest Hills, NY -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Re: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
From: Robert Lewis <rfermat AT yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 08:00:30 -0800

As a long-time resident and birder of New York state (more than 30 years) I agree with Cindy. We must not fall into any extremist position. It would be beyond a shame to go back to the old "word of mouth" system, when only a self-appointed elite knew about rarities. Respond appropriately to situations as they arise. No knee-jerk reactions. That is the middle path. Bob Lewis Sleepy Hollow NY --- On Mon, 2/6/12, Cindy wrote: From: Cindy Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it To: "NYS Birds" Date: Monday, February 6, 2012, 9:14 AM .... I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery slope....first owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, or other rare bird.... who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)? Keeping sightings limited to "word of mouth" severely restricts who sees what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club of sorts - with only the elite "inner circle" allowed to participate. I for one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't like birding in a crowd. I know a few "key" people but nobody really well. Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area just to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird. There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to the photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence around these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even license plates) of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's not worth their while to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the occasional bird may suffer an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think that's better than a whole lot of decent, good folks losing out on something really special. have a great day!Cindy Wodinsky -- NYSbirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basics Rules and Information Subscribe, Configuration and Leave Archives: The Mail Archive Surfbirds BirdingOnThe.Net Please submit your observations to eBird! -- ... -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Re: Photographer problem at Breezy Point
From: Nadine Scarpa <nadinescarpahomes AT gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 10:56:06 -0500

I was just about to post the same question about purpose, since the group rules state: "The primary purpose of the List is to disseminate information about wild bird sightings in and around New York State in a timely manner and to provide an effective electronic forum for New York State area birders." Instead of having respectful and ethical birders miss the opportunity to see rare birds, we apparently need to police our own. I also know that the ethics of birding also calls for using discretion when revealing locations of rarities. It would be unwise to post location information to a generic website, but isn't that what this list is really for? I have seen as many "birders" as other clueless folks get too close to birds, or cross onto private property, or just behave badly when trying to see a rarity. I treasure this list, and others like it, that allow folks to see birds they wouldn't normally know about, or get to see in their lifetime! I've also done my share of reporting the folks who either break rules or laws in the course of trying to see a bird. I will continue to do that, and I hope to also continue learning about the rarities and other information from this list. I hope the location posts continue. It would be sad to deprive the "good" birders of this information. Nadine On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:09 AM, Jim Osterlund wrote: > I wonder, then; what purpose does this list serve? > > > > -- > > NYSbirds-L List Info: > http://www.NortheastBirding.**com/NYSbirdsWELCOME > http://www.NortheastBirding.**com/NYSbirdsRULES > http://www.NortheastBirding.**com/**NYSbirdsSubscribeConfiguration** > Leave.htm > > ARCHIVES: > 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/**nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/**maillist.html > 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/**birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L > 3) http://birdingonthe.net/**mailinglists/NYSB.html > > Please submit your observations to eBird: > http://ebird.org/content/**ebird/ > > -- > -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Re: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
From: Gregory Fisher <gregoryfisher AT sprintmail.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 10:48:53 -0500

Subject: ADMIN: Ethics Thread
From: "Christopher T. Tessaglia-Hymes" <cth4 AT cornell.edu>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 15:42:59 +0000

As Listowner of NYSbirds-L, I am monitoring this thread in the background. This is an important discussion to have on the eList. Please continue to keep the comments considerate and thoughtful. For reference again, here is the American Birding Association (ABA) Code of Ethics - Principles of Birding Ethics: http://www.aba.org/about/ethics.html Also, here is the previously posted Nature Photographers Ethics Resource Page: http://www.naturephotographers.net/ethics.html Thanks and good birding! Sincerely, Chris T-H -- Chris Tessaglia-Hymes Listowner, NYSbirds-L Ithaca, New York cth4 AT cornell.edu NYSbirds-L - Archives NYSbirds-L - Welcome and Basics NYSbirds-L - Rules and Information NYSbirds-L - Subscribe, Configuration and Leave -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: RE: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
From: Lloyd Spitalnik <lloyd AT lloydspitalnikphotos.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 10:38:29 -0500

Hi all, I was going to stay out of this thread because it's an impossible situation. I come from 3 directions. I'm a long time birder, a professional wildlife photographer and a listowner of Metro Birding Briefs. As a listowner I've always discouraged posting of specific owl locations. Letting people know there's a Barred Owl in Central Park is fine but saying it's at lamppost 7902 isn't. Likewise, a Snowy Owl is being seen at Breezy Point, OK but telling people it's in the third dune back, not as good. I personally believe that self-policing is the best solution. Just a week or so ago, I was at Jones Beach photographing the white Snowy Owl when somebody started approaching the owl in a quick herky jerky manner. Of course, the owl flew. I was the first to get to its new location and kind of set up a line where the owl wasn't disturbed but close enough to take photos. The offending photographer arriver shortly after and started doing the same thing again. I told him he needed to stop and explained what he was doing was wrong. He listened, stayed a few more hours and never abused the bird again. There are ways of making your point without being confrontational that are effective. There are also ways of approaching an owl or any other bird without alarming it but it requires a lot of patience. I won't go into the technique but I took over 4000 images of "Whitey" and the bird always seemed quite serene. I haven't really post many images but if you're on Facebook I'm sure you can find a few. Educating new birders and photographers is essential as well as self-policing. Just my 3 cents. All the best, Lloyd Lloyd Spitalnik Photography www.lloydspitalnikphotos.com From: bounce-39536371-10711063 AT list.cornell.edu [mailto:bounce-39536371-10711063 AT list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Sam Stuart Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 10:19 AM To: david speiser Cc: NYS Birds Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it All, We are responsible for the sightings we make and the people we share those with. It is important to balance the need for documenting rare and irregular species vs. our desire to share these excellent sightings with others. This is especially true when dealing with sightings of territorial and sedentary species that are more susceptible to disturbances. These species should probably be documented on eBird ( www.eBird.org) and the NY State Avian Records Committee ( http://nybirds.org/NYSARC/nysarcform2.htm) rather than the list serve. Thanks, Sam Stuart On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 10:08 AM, david speiser wrote: I too agree with Cindy's summation. The birding community as a whole should not turn into insular cliques that make it easy not to report when you know you will hear about the bird anyway. Do we want this board to only report Herring Gull's except of course when a Ross' Gull shows up! That would need to be kept secret. Good birding, David Speiser www.lilibirds.com _____ Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 06:14:22 -0800 From: catbirder1 AT yahoo.com Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it To: nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I remember one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at Jones Beach a few years ago.... I even took one of my kids out of school so he could see this beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the beach that day! We saw both of them!). The first, "poster bird" was sitting on a dune, with at least a half dozen photographers snapping away at a distance of about 15 feet. Maybe not even that. Unbelievable but true. The second bird was more skittish and was sitting by itself, closer to the beach. However, as my son and I were watching it, a jogger running along the beach passed it too closely (not seeing the bird) and the owl flushed, flying overhead and away. You just can't win! I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery slope....first owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, or other rare bird.... who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)? Keeping sightings limited to "word of mouth" severely restricts who sees what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club of sorts - with only the elite "inner circle" allowed to participate. I for one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't like birding in a crowd. I know a few "key" people but nobody really well. Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area just to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird. There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to the photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence around these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even license plates) of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's not worth their while to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the occasional bird may suffer an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think that's better than a whole lot of decent, good folks losing out on something really special. have a great day! Cindy Wodinsky -- NYSbirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basics Rules and Information Subscribe, Configuration and Leave Archives: The Mail Archive Surfbirds BirdingOnThe.Net Please submit your observations to eBird! -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basics Rules and Information Subscribe, Configuration and Leave Archives: The Mail Archive Surfbirds BirdingOnThe.Net Please submit your observations to eBird! -- -- -Sam (917) 209-2566 AT surfbird917 http://www.flickr.com/photos/pasurfbird/ -- NYSbirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basics Rules and Information Subscribe, Configuration and Leave Archives: The Mail Archive Surfbirds BirdingOnThe.Net Please submit your observations to eBird! -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Subject: Croton Point 2/5
From: Matthew Wills <matthewwills AT earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 10:24:54 -0500

Subject: Re: Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
From: Sam Stuart <surfbird AT gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 10:19:25 -0500

All, We are responsible for the sightings we make and the people we share those with. It is important to balance the need for documenting rare and irregular species vs. our desire to share these excellent sightings with others. This is especially true when dealing with sightings of territorial and sedentary species that are more susceptible to disturbances. These species should probably be documented on eBird (www.eBird.org) and the NY State Avian Records Committee ( http://nybirds.org/NYSARC/nysarcform2.htm) rather than the list serve. Thanks, Sam Stuart On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 10:08 AM, david speiser wrote: > I too agree with Cindy's summation. > The birding community as a whole should not turn into insular cliques that > make it easy > not to report when you know you will hear about the bird anyway. > Do we want this board to only report Herring Gull's except of course when > a Ross' Gull shows up! > That would need to be kept secret. > > Good birding, > > David Speiser > www.lilibirds.com > > ------------------------------ > Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 06:14:22 -0800 > From: catbirder1 AT yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't > get it > To: nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu > > To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen > photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I > remember one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at > Jones Beach a few years ago.... I even took one of my kids out of school so > he could see this beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the > beach that day! We saw both of them!). The first, "poster bird" was sitting > on a dune, with at least a half dozen photographers snapping away at a > distance of about 15 feet. Maybe not even that. Unbelievable but true. The > second bird was more skittish and was sitting by itself, closer to the > beach. However, as my son and I were watching it, a jogger running along > the beach passed it too closely (not seeing the bird) and the owl flushed, > flying overhead and away. You just can't win! > > I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding > listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery > slope....first owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, > or other rare bird.... who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or > birder (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own > back yard!), will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off > and ruin the experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the > bird!)? > > Keeping sightings limited to "word of mouth" severely restricts who sees > what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private > club of sorts - with only the elite "inner circle" allowed to participate. > I for one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out > for rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually > don't like birding in a crowd. I know a few "key" people but nobody really > well. Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other > respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area > just to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird. > > There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless > joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to > the photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence > around these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even > license plates) of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's > not worth their while to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the > occasional bird may suffer an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think > that's better than a whole lot of decent, good folks losing out on > something really special. > > have a great day! > Cindy Wodinsky > -- > *NYSbirds-L List Info:* > Welcome and Basics > Rules and Information > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > *Archives:* > The Mail Archive > Surfbirds > BirdingOnThe.Net > *Please submit your observations to **eBird* > *!* > -- > -- > *NYSbirds-L List Info:* > Welcome and Basics > Rules and Information > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > *Archives:* > The Mail Archive > Surfbirds > BirdingOnThe.Net > *Please submit your observations to **eBird* > *!* > -- > -- -Sam (917) 209-2566 AT surfbird917 http://www.flickr.com/photos/pasurfbird/ -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l AT cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --

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