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9 Feb RFI: Pix of yellow-billed Com. Goldeneye [Tony Leukering ] 9 Feb Re: Smithsonian Gull--Really? ["Tangren, Gerald Vernon" ] 9 Feb Re: Smithsonian Gull--Really? [Suzanne Sullivan ] 9 Feb Re: Fwd: [BIRDWG01] Band-tailed Pigeon - iris colour? [John Walters ] 9 Feb Re: Smithsonian Gull--Really? [John Walters ] 9 Feb Fwd: [BIRDWG01] Band-tailed Pigeon - iris colour? [Allen Chartier ] 9 Feb Re: Smithsonian Gull - really? [Harry Hussey ] 8 Feb Re: Smithsonian Gull - really? [Paul Clyne ] 8 Feb Intriguing and confusing white-winged gull in Maine [Derek Lovitch ] 8 Feb Bryan's Shearwater ID [Ian Paulsen ] 8 Feb Re: Question re: another Herring Gull with Thayer's type wing pattern [Bruce Mactavish ] 7 Feb Another Gull Question [Lukas Musher ] 7 Feb Vega Gull - California. [Alvaro Jaramillo ] 7 Feb pale-winged Herring Gulls -- input from California [Lori Arthur ] 7 Feb Question re: another Herring Gull with Thayer's type wing pattern [Suzanne Sullivan ] 7 Feb Recent gull topics: photos from Ontario, Canada [Brandon Holden ] 8 Feb Re: Smithsonian Gull - really? ["Lethaby, Nick" ] 7 Feb Re: Smithsonian Gull - really? [Louis Bevier ] 7 Feb Re: Smithsonian Gull - really? [Millington / Birding World Sales ] 7 Feb Re: Smithsonian Gull - really? [Louis Bevier ] 7 Feb Re: Smithsonian Gull - really? [Chris Corben ] 7 Feb Re: Smithsonian Gull - really? [Louis Bevier ] 7 Feb Re: Smithsonian Gull - really? [Alvaro Jaramillo ] 7 Feb Re: Thayer's Gull mantle shade [Jean Iron ] 7 Feb Re: Smithsonian Gull - really? [Matt Sharp ] 7 Feb Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN [Cliff and Lisa Weisse ] 6 Feb Smithsonian Gull - really? [Bruce Webb ] 6 Feb Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN ["Geoffrey A. Williamson" ] 6 Feb Thayer’s – Iceland Gulls ID field marks; plus ID case from Texas [Mark B Bartosik ] 6 Feb Re: Thayer's Gull mantle shade [Wayne Hoffman ] 6 Feb Re: Thayer's Gull mantle shade [Tony Leukering ] 6 Feb Thayer's Gull mantle shade [Karl Bardon ] 6 Feb Band-tailed Pigeon - iris colour? [Jean Iron ] 5 Feb Re: nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN [Phil Pickering ] 5 Feb Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN [Wayne Hoffman ] 5 Feb Re: Photos of possible Kelp Gull at Brownsville, TX dump on 3 February 2012 [Peter Adriaens ] 5 Feb Re: Photos of possible Kelp Gull at Brownsville, TX dump on 3 February 2012 [Alvaro Jaramillo ] 5 Feb Re: Thayer's Gull ? [petteri mäkelä ] 5 Feb Thayer's Gull ? [Marcin Faber ] 4 Feb Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN ["Geoffrey A. Williamson" ] 5 Feb Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN ["Lethaby, Nick" ] 4 Feb Re: Dark Thayer's Gulls (in response to Kevin McGowan) [James Pawlicki ] 4 Feb Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN [James Pawlicki ] 4 Feb Re: Dark Thayer's Gulls (in response to Kevin McGowan) ["Kevin J. McGowan" ] 4 Feb Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN [Louis Bevier ] 4 Feb Re: glaucoides in California? [dave brown ] 4 Feb Re: glaucoides in California? [Martin Renner ] 4 Feb Dark Thayer's Gulls (in response to Kevin McGowan) [Nick Komar ] 4 Feb Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN ["Kevin J. McGowan" ] 4 Feb Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN [Bruce Mactavish ] 4 Feb Re: glaucoides in California? [Bruce Mactavish ] 4 Feb Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN [Amar Ayyash ] 4 Feb Re: Photos of possible Kelp Gull at Brownsville, TX dump on 3 February 2012 [Amar Ayyash ] 3 Feb glaucoides in California? [Steve Hampton ] 3 Feb Re: Photos of possible Kelp Gull at Brownsville, TX dump on 3 February 2012 [Alvaro Jaramillo ] 3 Feb Re: Nominate glaucoides [Chuck Carlson ] 4 Feb Photos of possible Kelp Gull at Brownsville, TX dump on 3 February 2012 [David Irons ] 4 Feb Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN [Shaibal Mitra ] 3 Feb Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN [James Pawlicki ] 3 Feb Re: Northern and southern Herring Gulls - Great Lakes [David Sibley ] 3 Feb Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN [Alvaro Jaramillo ] 4 Feb Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN ["Tangren, Gerald Vernon" ] 3 Feb Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN [Shaibal Mitra ] 3 Feb Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN [Amar_Ayyash ] 3 Feb Herring gulls ["Anthony J.Lauro" ] 3 Feb Re: Northern and southern Herring Gulls - Great Lakes ["Kevin J. McGowan" ] 3 Feb Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN [James Pawlicki ] 3 Feb Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN [Jean Iron ] 3 Feb Re: Northern and southern Herring Gulls - Great Lakes [Wayne Hoffman ] 3 Feb Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN [Shaibal Mitra ] 3 Feb Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN [Jean Iron ] 3 Feb Oriole in Wisconsin, July 2011 [Ryan Brady ] 2 Feb Re: Northern and southern Herring Gulls - Great Lakes [dave brown ] 2 Feb Re: Northern and southern Herring Gulls - Great Lakes [Amar_Ayyash ] 2 Feb Re: Northern and southern Herring Gulls - Great Lakes [Karl Bardon ] 31 Jan Alameda Co., CA -- pale Slaty-backed Gull or dark Vega Gull? [Lori Arthur ] Subject: RFI: Pix of yellow-billed Com. Goldeneye From: Tony Leukering <greatgrayowl AT AOL.COM> Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 15:05:17 -0500 Hi all: I am contemplating an illustrated essay about apparent yellow-billed female Common Goldeneyes, and I was wondering if anyone knows of publishable-quality pix of such for use with that essay (unfortunately, there are no funds available for payment for use). I've taken pix of a couple individuals in CO, but they leave a fair bit to be desired. Please respond off-list. Thanks for any help that you can provide. Tony Leukering Villas, NJ Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Smithsonian Gull--Really? From: "Tangren, Gerald Vernon" <tangren AT WSU.EDU> Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 17:38:58 +0000 This is off topic of identification, but considering where this thread has gone...We use Latin names because they are more universal than common names. Correct? We're in a quandary because the common names don't keep pace with the changes in the Latin names? In most fields other than birds, common names almost never change while Latin names are constantly changing. Apparently time and space are two different considerations, common names change over space, Latin names over time? On 2/9/12 9:27 AM, "Suzanne Sullivan" wrote: > How about Larus argentatus perplexus - > Suzanne Sullivan > Wilmington. MA > swampy10 AT verizon.net > > On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 11:10 AM, John Walters wrote: >> Well, since herring is a common clupeoid fish in European waters, why not >> name its American counterpart after a common American clupeoid--Shad Gull? >> Rolls off the tongue... >> >> John Walters >> Bonita, CA >> john-walters AT cox.net >> >> >> Join or Leave BIRDWG01: >> http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 >> >> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html -- Jerry WA State University-Tree Fruit Research & Extension Center Wenatchee, WA 509-663-8181 x 231 USDA Cold Hardiness Zone 6b (during the current phase of the Pacific Decadal Oscillation) http://www.tfrec.wsu.edu/pages/webdev/Favorites If two people talk at the same time and no one's listening, is it really interrupting? Adage Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Smithsonian Gull--Really? From: Suzanne Sullivan <swampy435 AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 12:27:50 -0500 How about Larus argentatus perplexus - Suzanne Sullivan Wilmington. MA swampy10 AT verizon.net On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 11:10 AM, John Walters wrote: > Well, since herring is a common clupeoid fish in European waters, why not > name its American counterpart after a common American clupeoid--Shad Gull? > Rolls off the tongue... > > John Walters > Bonita, CA > john-walters AT cox.net > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Fwd: [BIRDWG01] Band-tailed Pigeon - iris colour? From: John Walters <john-walters AT COX.NET> Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 08:05:08 -0800 On 2/9/2012 7:16 AM, Allen Chartier wrote: > > Just my opinion here, but it seems that eye color is variable and that > all these illustrations might be correct (with the possible exception > of dark eyes for members of the Albilinea group). Red or brown eyes > seem to dominate in North America with yellow eyes occasional to rare. > That's a very comprehensive literature search! I did a much shorter one, pulling a couple of books off the shelf above my desk: Arnold Small's "California Birds: Their Status and Distribution," and Phillip Unitt's "San Diego County Bird Atlas." Both have photographs of Band-tailed Pigeons apparently with yellow irises (the photos are quite small). I have no information regarding the sources of either photo, but presumably both were taken somewhere in California. John Walters Bonita, CA john-walters AT cox.net Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Smithsonian Gull--Really? From: John Walters <john-walters AT COX.NET> Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 08:10:02 -0800 Well, since herring is a common clupeoid fish in European waters, why not name its American counterpart after a common American clupeoid--Shad Gull? Rolls off the tongue... John Walters Bonita, CA john-walters AT cox.net Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Fwd: [BIRDWG01] Band-tailed Pigeon - iris colour? From: Allen Chartier <amazilia3 AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 10:16:57 -0500 Birders, Ron and Jean have encouraged me to post what I've sent privately to them, plus additional information. I am not an expert on Band-tailed Pigeons, and have not seen one in the field for several years, and often they perch so high that eye color cannot be assessed. So, I have searched several sources to try to answer their question, what color are the eyes of Band-tailed Pigeon? It turns out that in the literature there is quite a bit of variation. The taxonomy of Band-tailed Pigeon (Patagoenas fasciatus) seems not to be much in dispute, with the Handbook of Birds of the World (Vol. 4, 1997) (HBW) and the Helm Guide (Pigeons and Doves, Gibbs, Barnes, and Cox; 2001) listing 7 subspecies and Clements (The Clements Checklist of Birds of the World, Sixth Edition, 2007) listing 8 subspecies. The additional subspecies recognized by Clements is monilis, ocurring in San Pedro Martir, northern Baja California Norte, Mexico. Helm separates these subspecies into two groups, the Fasciata group (Band-tailed Pigeon) and the Albilinea group (White-naped Pigeon). They include 4 subspecies in the Fasciata group; fasciata (all U.S. and Canadian birds), vioscae (s. Baja), letonae (Honduras/El Salvador), and parva (n. Nicaragua). The Albilinea group includes crissalis (Costa Rica to w. Panama), albilinea (Andes from Venezuela & Columbia to Argentina), and roraimae (two mountains in Venezuelan tepui region). The Albilinea group has been proposed for splitting, likely based on their all-yellow bills (Fasciata group has black-tipped yellow bills), and probably other characters (I didn't to a thorough investigation of this). All Band-tailed Pigeons apparently have a bright red fleshy eye ring. Most current North American field guides portray North American (fasciata) Band-tailed Pigeons with brown or red eyes (virtually none includes eye color in the text). Ron and Jean found the following: "We’ve found Band-tailed Pigeons with yellow eyes in the Western Peterson Guide (1961), whereas the Western Peterson (1990) got it correct with dark eyes, however the new “big” Peterson (2009) of all NA birds is back to yellow eyes, and the Golden Guide shows yellow eyes." Sibley (2000) and National Geographic (2006) illustrate dark eyes; and Kaufman's and Crossley's photos show birds with dark eyes. Pough (Audubon Western Bird Guide, 1957) illustrates a bird with yellow eyes. Neotropical field guides are equally variable. For Costa Rica, Stiles and Skutch (1989) illustrates a bird with an all-yellow bill and brown eye; text describes eyes as "purplish-red." For Panama, Ridgely and Gwinn (1989) illustrates an all-yellow bill and dark brown eyes for subspecies crissalis. For Colombia, Hilty and Brown (1986) illustrates an all-yellow bill and yellow eyes (with narrow black outer ring?). For Venezuela, Hilty (2003) used the same illustration as for Colombia showing yellow eyes. For Ecuador, Ridgely and Greenfield (2001) illustrates an all-yellow bill and yellow eyes (with narrow black outer ring?), but in the text describes the eye color as "pale purplish"! For Peru, Schulenberg et al. (2007) illustrate a bird with an all-yellow bill and an eye color that is difficult to describe, but looks brownish-orange; definitely not yellow and not red. Clements and Shany (2001) illustrates Peruvian a bird with an all-yellow bill and orange-yellow eyes. For Bolivia and Argentina, de la Pena and Rumboll (1998) illustrates a bird with an all-yellow bill and orange-yellow eyes. And for Argentina, Narosky and Yzurieta (1989) illustrates ai bird with a yellowish bill and dark eyes. The Helm Guide describes the eye color of fasciata as: "inner ring pale yellowish-white with narrow purplish outer ring." HBW describes the eye color for all subspecies combined as "pale yellow to dark brownish" and illustrates three subspecies; fasciata (yellowish eyes!), crissalis (dark brown eyes), and albilinea (yellow eyes and all-yellow bill). A check of (~150) photos on-line turned up mainly birds photographed from the range of the fasciata subspecies, and the majority show birds with bright red, red, or brown eyes, with no indication of a yellow inner ring: http://www.tsuru-bird.net/doves/index.html http://share3.esd105.wednet.edu/rsandelin/Fieldguide/Animalpages/Birds/Pigeons%20and%20Doves.htm Photos of birds with apparent yellow (or yellowish) eyes can be found here: Taken in California: http://sdakotabirds.com/species/band_tailed_pigeon_info.htm Taken in Ecuador (note: this site may disable your "back" button): http://ibc.lynxeds.com/photo/band-tailed-pigeon-columba-fasciata/bird-tree Taken in Arizona (first photo only - second photo shows brown but are of same bird?): http://www.greglasley.net/bandtailedpigeon.html And Ron and Jean found a photo of a bird with yellowish eyes and an apparent all yellow bill (taken in Vancouver, BC?) here: http://www.birdvancouver.com/b_band-tailed_pigeon.html I don't know if Derek Matthews (VARC) monitors this list (or if he's read this far!), but I seem to have lost his email address so can't ask if the bird on the above web page was photographed in BC, and what the age/sex might have been. Pyle (1997) does not mention eye color as a means of ageing or sexing Band-tailed Pigeons. Just my opinion here, but it seems that eye color is variable and that all these illustrations might be correct (with the possible exception of dark eyes for members of the Albilinea group). Red or brown eyes seem to dominate in North America with yellow eyes occasional to rare. -- Allen T. Chartier Inkster, Michigan Email: amazilia3 AT gmail.com Website: www.amazilia.net Blog: http://mihummingbirdguy.blogspot.com/ Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Smithsonian Gull - really? From: Harry Hussey <hhussey3 AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 10:44:36 +0000 "Moreover, the trinomial structure of “American Herring Gull” is, on a world scale, almost, but not quite, moribund for English bird names." American Golden Plover, Pacific Golden Plover, Great Grey Shrike (bearing in mind that Northern Shrike is an American name that may wind up not applying to the European species if a split occurs, as happened when attempts were made to use the name Green-winged Teal for the entire superspecies pre split), Southern Grey Shrike/Desert Grey Shrike, Lesser Grey Shrike (a bird with a trinomial English name that isn't even a recent split or anything), Great Grey Owl (or Great Gray Owl for our American brethren), Lesser Spotted Eagle, Great, Middle and Lesser Spotted Woodpeckers, Lesser Short-toed Lark (and that's only a hyphen away from having four words in its name), Canary Islands Chiffchaff, Lesser White-fronted Goose, Striated Scops Owl etc etc...     Given that the English name for Turdus migratorius is still American Robin, despite it being a true thrush, and given that the North American parulids are not actually warblers, I think denying the simplicity of the English name "American Herring Gull" on the basis that it and (European) Herring Gull are not considered sister taxa is a little pedantic?                                                                      Regards (and slightly tongue-in-cheek),                                                                                          Harry ________________________________ From: Paul Clyne To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Thursday, 9 February 2012, 5:17 Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Smithsonian Gull - really? How about commemorating the great American ornithologist, and one of the principal founders of the A.O.U., who first described smithsonianus—viz., Elliott Coues? Thus, Coues's Gull. Coues once had a bird honoring him by name, Coues's FlycatcherContopus pertinax, but he lost that when the bird's name got changed to Greater Pewee. (According to the Mearns's (1992) Audubon to Xantus: The Lives of Those Commemorated in North American Bird Names, the Coues family anglicized the pronunciation of their name to sound like “cows” when Elliott's grandfather emigrated in 1735; see the account therein for Grace Darling Coues (Elliott's baby sister, for whom Grace's Warbler is named.)) In any event, I strongly discourage adopting “American Herring Gull” as a species name for syntactic reasons. Structurally, “American Herring Gull” has the same syntax, in mirror image, of subspecific names in scientific nomenclature. Indeed, “American Herring Gull” is a good way of referring, in English, to Larus argentatus smithsonianus. But if smithsonianus is not a sister taxon to argentatus, the name becomes cumbersome, misleading, and provides an open invitation to orthographic errors—in particular, “American Herring-Gull.” Moreover, the trinomial structure of “American Herring Gull” is, on a world scale, almost, but not quite, moribund for English bird names. It's certainly not a structure we want to proliferate. I would go so far as to propose that those responsible for assigning new English names at the species level strongly discourage this structure except, perhaps, when sister taxa are involved. When Sibley & Monroe published their monumental Distribution & Taxonomy of Birds of the World in 1990, in which they expended considerable effort via an international committee in selecting English names, I did a couple of linguistic studies of the English names they adopted. It will come as no surprise that the overwhelming majority (96%) of their English names consist of two words (either or both of which may contain hyphens), which is convenient, since it mirrors the structure of scientific names. Only 174 (1.8%) consisted of three or more words involving a mirror-image of the genus-species-subspecies structure. Among those, 44 names involved species groups (in the sense of Sibley & Monroe) and should, technically, have included hyphens in accordance with their explicit statement on hyphenation of group names. But Sibley & Monroe just couldn't bring themselves to hyphenate group names if either the modifier or head noun already contained a hyphen. Hence, no “Northern Carmine-Bee-eater,” “Northern Saw-whet-Owl,” or, heaven forbid, “Lesser Blue-eared-Glossy-Starling.” That whittles the number down to 130 names (1.3% of the total). For 34 of those species, the last two words of the name are unique in the corpus, making them simply unnecessarily long names; for example, “Great Slaty Woodpecker” (where “Slaty Woodpecker” would suffice). In all cases, the first word could simply be lopped off and leave a unique name, even if in some cases the resultant name might not be a best choice. For another 10 names, the last two (unhyphenated) words occur elsewhere in the corpus as hyphenated group names. According to Sibley & Monroe, we need to distinguish the hyphenated “African Golden-Weaver” (which forms a species group with “Holub's Golden-Weaver”) from the unhyphenated “Asian Golden Weaver” and other Golden Weavers. This is a nomenclatural mess that begs for revision. Overall, the Sibley & Monroe corpus includes only 79 species names (0.8% of their total of 9672 species) following the pattern of “American Herring Gull,” where the last two words are shared by species that do not enter into names for species groups (in their sense), and 27 of these involve “near groups” where the relevant species are sequentially adjacent in their linear sequence of species but are not cited as forming a species group. (Among this lot of 27 species, 15 names wouldn't be sanctioned hyphens in the Sibley & Monroe corpus even if they were groups, due to the presence of hyphens in the second or third word of the name.) There are still other problems in the names of those residual 79 species, but I'll quit here. Suffice it to say that the name “American Herring Gull” does not fit the target syntactic structure of English names for species and, as far as I'm concerned, shouldn't even be an option worthy of consideration. Paul Clyne paulclyne2000 AT yahoo.com --- On Tue, 2/7/12, Alvaro Jaramillo wrote: >From: Alvaro Jaramillo >Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Smithsonian Gull - really? >To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU >Date: Tuesday, February 7, 2012, 10:29 AM > > > >Matt, Bruce et al. >  >    The issue that will come up with the AOU or SACC regarding the name American Herring Gull, if the decision is made to separate this taxon, is that this name implies that it is the sister to the European Herring Gull. If a separation is made then the background for that will partially be that they are NOT sister species, available data suggests that smithsonianus is closer to California , Glaucous-winged and a variety of northern gulls than it is to Euro Herring Gull. This may cause a problem for the English Name. There is no rule that says that the English name has to match taxonomy, and we will soon have finches that are tanagers, tanagers that are cardinals, chats that are cardinals, tanagers that are buntings etc etc etc so the English names are certainly muddled here in the New World and some of us are ok with that (I don’t want Summer, Western and Scarlet Cardinal-Grosbeaks). Even so, there will be an argument in this case to change it to something neutral that does not suggest a sister species relationship. Then Smithsonian is the default for various reasons, and it is not pretty and as Bruce mentions has historical issues. >    Maybe a good brainstorm on what a neutral name could be would be good, and informative. Matt, Seagull does not work, but Sea Gull might! Too bad Silver Gull is taken. Boreal Gull? Evil-eyed Gull? Standard Gull? Variable Gull (there is a recently renamed Variable Oriole, and we have the Variable Hawk…so why not)? >  >Regards, >  >Alvaro >  >Alvaro Jaramillo >chucao AT coastside.net >Half Moon Bay , California >  >Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide >www.fieldguides.com > >________________________________ > >From:NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Matt Sharp >Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 7:10 AM >To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU >Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Smithsonian Gull - really? >  >Smithsonian Gull seems more in keeping with naming convention and continuity since the rules of naming means that "smithsonianus" will be retained if the taxon is elevated to species status >  >If a nationality is going to used I think Canadian Herring Gull would be just as  appropriate as American Herring Gull though stringing together the old and the new puts one on the slippery slope towards nomenclatural abominations like Saltmarsh Sharp-tailed Sparrow >  >But really I think if a new name is given it should just be called Seagull which would obviate the need to correct all the non-birders who will call them that regardless of the name the "we who know better" end up using.  >  >  >Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 >Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html >Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 >Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Smithsonian Gull - really? From: Paul Clyne <paulclyne2000 AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 21:17:27 -0800 How about commemorating the great American ornithologist, and one of the principal founders of the A.O.U., who first described smithsonianus—viz., Elliott Coues? Thus, Coues's Gull. Coues once had a bird honoring him by name, Coues's Flycatcher Contopus pertinax, but he lost that when the bird's name got changed to Greater Pewee. (According to the Mearns's (1992) Audubon to Xantus: The Lives of Those Commemorated in North American Bird Names, the Coues family anglicized the pronunciation of their name to sound like “cows” when Elliott's grandfather emigrated in 1735; see the account therein for Grace Darling Coues (Elliott's baby sister, for whom Grace's Warbler is named.)) In any event, I strongly discourage adopting “American Herring Gull” as a species name for syntactic reasons. Structurally, “American Herring Gull” has the same syntax, in mirror image, of subspecific names in scientific nomenclature. Indeed, “American Herring Gull” is a good way of referring, in English, to Larus argentatus smithsonianus. But if smithsonianus is not a sister taxon to argentatus, the name becomes cumbersome, misleading, and provides an open invitation to orthographic errors—in particular, “American Herring-Gull.” Moreover, the trinomial structure of “American Herring Gull” is, on a world scale, almost, but not quite, moribund for English bird names. It's certainly not a structure we want to proliferate. I would go so far as to propose that those responsible for assigning new English names at the species level strongly discourage this structure except, perhaps, when sister taxa are involved. When Sibley & Monroe published their monumental Distribution & Taxonomy of Birds of the World in 1990, in which they expended considerable effort via an international committee in selecting English names, I did a couple of linguistic studies of the English names they adopted. It will come as no surprise that the overwhelming majority (96%) of their English names consist of two words (either or both of which may contain hyphens), which is convenient, since it mirrors the structure of scientific names. Only 174 (1.8%) consisted of three or more words involving a mirror-image of the genus-species-subspecies structure. Among those, 44 names involved species groups (in the sense of Sibley & Monroe) and should, technically, have included hyphens in accordance with their explicit statement on hyphenation of group names. But Sibley & Monroe just couldn't bring themselves to hyphenate group names if either the modifier or head noun already contained a hyphen. Hence, no “Northern Carmine-Bee-eater,” “Northern Saw-whet-Owl,” or, heaven forbid, “Lesser Blue-eared-Glossy-Starling.” That whittles the number down to 130 names (1.3% of the total). For 34 of those species, the last two words of the name are unique in the corpus, making them simply unnecessarily long names; for example, “Great Slaty Woodpecker” (where “Slaty Woodpecker” would suffice). In all cases, the first word could simply be lopped off and leave a unique name, even if in some cases the resultant name might not be a best choice. For another 10 names, the last two (unhyphenated) words occur elsewhere in the corpus as hyphenated group names. According to Sibley & Monroe, we need to distinguish the hyphenated “African Golden-Weaver” (which forms a species group with “Holub's Golden-Weaver”) from the unhyphenated “Asian Golden Weaver” and other Golden Weavers. This is a nomenclatural mess that begs for revision. Overall, the Sibley & Monroe corpus includes only 79 species names (0.8% of their total of 9672 species) following the pattern of “American Herring Gull,” where the last two words are shared by species that do not enter into names for species groups (in their sense), and 27 of these involve “near groups” where the relevant species are sequentially adjacent in their linear sequence of species but are not cited as forming a species group. (Among this lot of 27 species, 15 names wouldn't be sanctioned hyphens in the Sibley & Monroe corpus even if they were groups, due to the presence of hyphens in the second or third word of the name.) There are still other problems in the names of those residual 79 species, but I'll quit here. Suffice it to say that the name “American Herring Gull” does not fit the target syntactic structure of English names for species and, as far as I'm concerned, shouldn't even be an option worthy of consideration. Paul Clyne paulclyne2000 AT yahoo.com --- On Tue, 2/7/12, Alvaro Jaramillo wrote: From: Alvaro Jaramillo Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Smithsonian Gull - really? To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Date: Tuesday, February 7, 2012, 10:29 AM Matt, Bruce et al.       The issue that will come up with the AOU or SACC regarding the name American Herring Gull, if the decision is made to separate this taxon, is that this name implies that it is the sister to the European Herring Gull. If a separation is made then the background for that will partially be that they are NOT sister species, available data suggests that smithsonianus is closer to California , Glaucous-winged and a variety of northern gulls than it is to Euro Herring Gull. This may cause a problem for the English Name. There is no rule that says that the English name has to match taxonomy, and we will soon have finches that are tanagers, tanagers that are cardinals, chats that are cardinals, tanagers that are buntings etc etc etc so the English names are certainly muddled here in the New World and some of us are ok with that (I don’t want Summer, Western and Scarlet Cardinal-Grosbeaks). Even so, there will be an argument in this case to change it to something neutral that does not suggest a sister species relationship. Then Smithsonian is the default for various reasons, and it is not pretty and as Bruce mentions has historical issues.     Maybe a good brainstorm on what a neutral name could be would be good, and informative. Matt, Seagull does not work, but Sea Gull might! Too bad Silver Gull is taken. Boreal Gull? Evil-eyed Gull? Standard Gull? Variable Gull (there is a recently renamed Variable Oriole, and we have the Variable Hawk…so why not)?   Regards,   Alvaro   Alvaro Jaramillo chucao AT coastside.net Half Moon Bay , California   Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide www.fieldguides.com From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Matt Sharp Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 7:10 AM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Smithsonian Gull - really?   Smithsonian Gull seems more in keeping with naming convention and continuity since the rules of naming means that "smithsonianus" will be retained if the taxon is elevated to species status   If a nationality is going to used I think Canadian Herring Gull would be just as  appropriate as American Herring Gull though stringing together the old and the new puts one on the slippery slope towards nomenclatural abominations like Saltmarsh Sharp-tailed Sparrow   But really I think if a new name is given it should just be called Seagull which would obviate the need to correct all the non-birders who will call them that regardless of the name the "we who know better" end up using.      Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Intriguing and confusing white-winged gull in Maine From: Derek Lovitch <columbarius33 AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 13:47:52 -0800 Hi all, Especially considering the recent threads, I am interested in opinions on a white-winged gull that has perplexed me for the past two winters.   Last winter, I found the bird with an apparent 2nd winter plumage aspect at a small urban park in Westbrook, Maine.  Here are my first photos and notes, from March 15th, 2011 when I was tentatively identifying this as a “possible glaucoides Iceland Gull:” http://maineoutdoorjournal.mainetoday.com/blogentry.html?id=58396   A week later, I greatly improved on those photos and studied the bird at length with Richard Crossley: http://maineoutdoorjournal.mainetoday.com/blogentry.html?id=58510   For the reasons stated in the blog, we were leaning towards a leucistic “Kumlien’s” -type.   On January 18th 2012, I found the same bird at the same park.  Now, one year older, I am unsure if the identification is any less clear!  My best photos of the bird to date this winter were from a few days later. The best of those can be seen here: http://maineoutdoorjournal.mainetoday.com/blogentry.html?id=81722   Additional photos are here: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.350344068328887.95540.198877036808925&type=1   And if you still haven’t had enough, here are sets of photos from Louis Bevier:  http://flic.kr/s/aHsjytLyRX   And more from Trevor Persons: http://flic.kr/s/aHsjy1MGFH   Conversations about this bird have included glaucoides Iceland, Kumlien’s Iceland with or without leucism, a runt Glaucous, and Glaucous x Iceland hybrid.  Personally, I am looking for more opinions, and therefore I am hoping that at least a few of you are not yet gulled-out for the winter.   Perhaps relevant to this discussion is a 1st winter bird that I photographed today, 2/8, that appears to be a massive “Kumlien’s” Iceland Gull: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.365284943501466.98303.198877036808925&type=1   Thank you for your time, Derek _______________________________________________________________________ Jeannette and Derek Lovitch Freeport Wild Bird Supply 541 Route One, Suite 10 Freeport, Maine 04032 www.freeportwildbirdsupply.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Bryan's Shearwater ID From: Ian Paulsen <birdbooker AT ZIPCON.NET> Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 10:34:17 -0800 HI: Now that it has been discovered in Japanese waters: http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/20120208p2a00m0na013000c.html How does one ID in the field? sincerely -- Ian Paulsen Bainbridge Island, WA, USA Visit my BIRDBOOKER REPORT blog here: http://birdbookerreport.blogspot.com/ Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Question re: another Herring Gull with Thayer's type wing pattern From: Bruce Mactavish <bruce.mactavish1 AT NF.SYMPATICO.CA> Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 07:28:36 -0330 Suzanne, Why isn't this an argentatus? This is a very sensible question. Argentatus typically have dark marks on only P10-P6. This bird pretty well fits that pattern with only a small mark on the outer web of P5. For the record birds like this are quite regular in small numbers in St. John's but at the pale end of local winter Herring Gulls. A few birds have no marks at all on P5. So why isn't this an argentatus? The northern races of argentatus are slightly darker gray above. Such birds stand out among a flock of local Herring Gulls at least to the discerning gull watcher. Also legs are often brighter pink. On the close up of the wing tip the black on the leading webs of P6-P8 show little bayonet shaped points. On European Herring Gulls these marks tend to be more squared off. Peter Adriaens gets full credit for discovering this detail a number of years ago while working on a paper that was published in Dutch Birding on the differences in adult European Herring Gulls and smithsonianus (mainly Newfoundland smithsonianus). Over the last 25 years of gull watching I've seen and photographed only four birds that that were nice fits for the northern argentatus Herring Gull. That doesn't mean that other European Herring Gulls haven't occurred in Newfoundland such as the paler more southern populations of argentatus and argenteus and whatever race of European Herring Gull lives in Iceland. White the adults of most European Herring Gulls are tough to separate from smithsonianus the one year old birds offer more or a chance and few of those have been identified in Newfoundland in winter. Bruce Mactavish St. John's, Newfoundland -----Original Message----- From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Suzanne Sullivan Sent: February-08-12 12:38 AM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: [BIRDWG01] Question re: another Herring Gull with Thayer's type wing pattern All, I photographed another Herring Gull with Thayer's like wing tips this past weekend in Rockport MA ( town next to Gloucester). This is the third individual I have photographed in this area in the past few weeks. This bird AT http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/another_hegu_with_thayers_type_wing_ ( just hit next for more) has the least amount of black so far, although one of the other birds I did not get a wing shot. Wonder how many more there are out there. All joking aside re Larus argentatus newfoundlandicus, my question is, why couldn't some of these birds be L.a argentatus. According to the wingtip patterns of large gulls on page 26 of Olsen Larsson the bird I photographed fits really well, as does Bruce Mactavish's descriptions. Wouldn't this be somewhat logical considering Newfoundland gets many other European species durning the winter months? And why would some filter down to Massachusetts with the other northern gull species. With a species that seems to be illogical to us so much of the time, isn't this a logical explanation for the Thayer's type wing patterns? Suzanne Sullivan Wilmington, Ma Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Another Gull Question From: Lukas Musher <musherluke AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 22:20:10 -0800 Hi, I photographed this gull earlier this week in Sausalito, CA. I'm heavily leaning towards first cycle Nelson's, but my previous experience with this hybrid is extremely limited (one bird). The bird I've seen in the past and photos I've looked at of other birds had dark, chocolate primaries. Though it seems to have all the trademarks of Glaucous ancestry (large, long, bicolored bill, flat crown, etc), the other half (or quarter...) is throwing me off. Two photos of the bird are up on my blog. I would appreciate any insights. Thanks, Luke Musher Bolinas, CA /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ Lukas Musher musherluke AT gmail.com http://boomchachalaca.blogspot.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Vega Gull - California. From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 21:00:36 -0800 Folks, Here are some photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/alvarojaramillo/6839455159/in/photostream This form (species?) is nearly annual here in the Half Moon Bay Area. This individual was a gorgeous one, more contrasting than some. One feature that is difficult to see in the photos is that a few back feathers had come in and they were obviously grey, not a slate-grey, blackish-grey. There were not enough feathers to really assess the comparative darkness to smithsonianus, or Glaucous-wings. This is still a difficult species to find, although logic tells us that it should be more common than Slaty-backed. Perhaps only the most obvious examples are the ones being found, and the adults are extremely difficult to spot out here in the west. The reason is that there are plenty of Herring type gulls with dark eyes, not including Thayer's. The common hybrid, Glaucous-winged x Herring can look rather smithsonianus like but with dark eyes, although usually a good view allows one to see that the primaries have reduced black. Good gulling, Alvaro Alvaro Jaramillo chucao AT coastside.net Half Moon Bay, California Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide www.fieldguides.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: pale-winged Herring Gulls -- input from California From: Lori Arthur <loriarthur61 AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 20:56:21 -0800 Here in California, I see a lot of Herring-types with somewhat reduced black in the primaries, although not nearly as extreme Suzanne's Rockport bird. They typically have more or less extensive black on P9-10 like typical American Herrings, but streaks/strings of pearls in the rest of the primaries, resembling Thayer's or Vega. Look at this bird, for example (which is also strangely shaped): http://www.flickr.com/photos/73989529 AT N02/sets/72157629110078727/ and this one: http://www.flickr.com/photos/73989529 AT N02/6839479435/in/photostream   In California such birds probably result from hybridization and backcrossing between American Herrings and Glaucous-wings. I think that our "Herring Gulls" (a.k.a. American Herring Gulls, Sea Gulls, Smithsonian Gulls, Smithson's Gulls, Smith Gulls, Evil-eyed Gulls, Standard Gulls, Variable Gulls, Seagulls) may hybridize more than we think. Could the eastern birds with extensive white in the primaries, such as Suzanne's, result from hybridization with Kumlien's? Sibley's maps show some areas of breeding range overlap in northern Canada...   I really don't know what I'm talking about, though. I've only been serious about gulling for about a year, so you should take everything I say with a grain of salt.   Noah Arthur, Oakland, CA Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Question re: another Herring Gull with Thayer's type wing pattern From: Suzanne Sullivan <swampy435 AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 23:08:13 -0500 All, I photographed another Herring Gull with Thayer's like wing tips this past weekend in Rockport MA ( town next to Gloucester). This is the third individual I have photographed in this area in the past few weeks. This bird AT http://www.pbase.com/suzsull/another_hegu_with_thayers_type_wing_ ( just hit next for more) has the least amount of black so far, although one of the other birds I did not get a wing shot. Wonder how many more there are out there. All joking aside re Larus argentatus newfoundlandicus, my question is, why couldn't some of these birds be L.a argentatus. According to the wingtip patterns of large gulls on page 26 of Olsen Larsson the bird I photographed fits really well, as does Bruce Mactavish's descriptions. Wouldn't this be somewhat logical considering Newfoundland gets many other European species durning the winter months? And why would some filter down to Massachusetts with the other northern gull species. With a species that seems to be illogical to us so much of the time, isn't this a logical explanation for the Thayer's type wing patterns? Suzanne Sullivan Wilmington, Ma Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Recent gull topics: photos from Ontario, Canada From: Brandon Holden <peregrine13 AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 22:46:40 -0500 Apologies for one large email, but I hope those interested in these recent topics will find some of these photos interesting (and those who have had enough gull-talk only have to delete one email). Herring Gull's in North America with "tail bands": Since photographing a polarizing "Herring Gull" in Ontario with a dramatic tail-band in 2004, I have photographed such birds with an alarming frequency here in southern Ontario. A large percentage of these birds are in first basic plumage fairly early in the fall, indicating they may come from southerly (or dare I say local) breeding populations. It has given me great doubts of ever claiming a Euro or Vega candidate (again) in these parts. A recent dramatic example from Lake Ontario on Sep 25, 2011: https://picasaweb.google.com/117329578255897846071/UnusualHerringGullsFromOntario#5658551749126256962 https://picasaweb.google.com/117329578255897846071/UnusualHerringGullsFromOntario#5658551730883308466 Kumlien's Gull's with white wings: I photographed a suspected Kumlien's Gull here (Ontario) a few years ago in March with pure white wingtips (below) I'm guessing it shows that Kumlien's can show white wings, and we know Kumlien's can also show pale eyes. In the case of the Duluth bird, it (in my opinion) simply raises the question about our ability to call the bird what it truly looks like (a glaucoides). : https://picasaweb.google.com/117329578255897846071/KumlienSThayerSGullsFromONTARIO#5577274754793089650 https://picasaweb.google.com/117329578255897846071/KumlienSThayerSGullsFromONTARIO#5577274761968603986 Adult Herring Gulls with extensive white in the wingtips: I have never studied the frequency of this in Ontario, but have photographed them multiple times without much trouble. An extreme example from an hour west of the Niagara River (in January) below. https://picasaweb.google.com/117329578255897846071/UnusualHerringGullsFromOntario#5577276850153959170 https://picasaweb.google.com/117329578255897846071/UnusualHerringGullsFromOntario#5577276859478782786 Mantle shade in Kumlien's/Thayers: Here in southern Ontario (near the Thayer's/Kumliens border), I have seem some dramatic differences in mantle shade between individual Kumlien's and Thayer's. Many Thayer's are similar to Herring Gull, yet I have seen a few that are clearly darker than HEGU. During a trip to St. John's, Newfoundland in January 2010, I photographed a single Kumliens' that was dramatically paler in mantle shade, to the point where it could be picked out with the naked eye (out of several hundred birds) fairly quickly: https://picasaweb.google.com/117329578255897846071/Temp#5706603300729424706 One of the most frightening individuals I have photographed can be seen below. This bird was exceptionally large (Herring-sized), dark mantled (visibly darker than Herrings), with a dark eye and deep pink legs. If you accept that it is a part of the Thayer's/Kumlien's problem, then it surely throws "expectations" for one or the other out the window: https://picasaweb.google.com/117329578255897846071/KumlienSThayerSGullsFromONTARIO#5591077419453440898 https://picasaweb.google.com/117329578255897846071/KumlienSThayerSGullsFromONTARIO#5591077414427782354 A lack of new dialogue, but I hope those interested enjoy the images. Brandon _____________________ Brandon Holden Guelph, Ontario www.PeregrinePrints.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Smithsonian Gull - really? From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM> Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 00:33:11 +0000 As a compromise, we can use both names. Birds lacking a subapical spot on p 9 can be "Smithsonian Gull". Those with one there can be split as "American Herring Gull". -----Original Message----- From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Louis Bevier Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 4:24 PM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Smithsonian Gull - really? I am behind times. But since nobody else seems to have caught it, there may be some who find this of use. Storrs Olsen and Dick Banks dealt with the type description of smithsonianus in Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington in 2007. You can download pdf at link here: http://si-pddr.si.edu/dspace/handle/10088/6522 The suggested name is Smithsonian Gull, but more interestingly given the recent thread on variability of North American Herring Gulls is that they chose a lectotype from Newfoundland. This means that the birds described by Peter Adriaens and Bruce Mactavish, the Newfoundland types are from the region of the "type" locality. The problem I see, however, is that Coues wrote that his type series of American Herring Gulls had a subapical spot on p10 that was not large (contrasted with long, entirely white tip on the European birds he compared, presumably nominate argentatus) and that no subapical white spot existed on p9. The Adriaens and Mactavish paper reports that less than 10% of the Newfoundland birds lacked a spot on p9. To me, Coues's description sounds much more like the more extensively dark (presumably) western breeding populations of American Herring Gulls. It seems by designating the lectotype to Newfoundland, only a few of us are really seeing "true" smithsonianus. Sea Gull is looking better and better. Having read through the genetic papers on this, it seems clear that not enough sampling of known breeding locality birds (and with vouchers for future comparison of morphology, including wingtip patterns) exists to say much about all of this. The field remains wide open for someone to nail down a good name and description of what we call Herring Gulls in North America. A discussion of the merits of the split for smithsonianus was discussed by the AOU here: http://www.aou.org/committees/nacc/proposals/2007_B_votes_web.php Maybe Alvaro knows more. Louis Bevier Fairfield, Maine Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Smithsonian Gull - really? From: Louis Bevier <lrbevier AT COLBY.EDU> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 19:24:00 -0500 I am behind times. But since nobody else seems to have caught it, there may be some who find this of use. Storrs Olsen and Dick Banks dealt with the type description of smithsonianus in Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington in 2007. You can download pdf at link here: http://si-pddr.si.edu/dspace/handle/10088/6522 The suggested name is Smithsonian Gull, but more interestingly given the recent thread on variability of North American Herring Gulls is that they chose a lectotype from Newfoundland. This means that the birds described by Peter Adriaens and Bruce Mactavish, the Newfoundland types are from the region of the "type" locality. The problem I see, however, is that Coues wrote that his type series of American Herring Gulls had a subapical spot on p10 that was not large (contrasted with long, entirely white tip on the European birds he compared, presumably nominate argentatus) and that no subapical white spot existed on p9. The Adriaens and Mactavish paper reports that less than 10% of the Newfoundland birds lacked a spot on p9. To me, Coues's description sounds much more like the more extensively dark (presumably) western breeding populations of American Herring Gulls. It seems by designating the lectotype to Newfoundland, only a few of us are really seeing "true" smithsonianus. Sea Gull is looking better and better. Having read through the genetic papers on this, it seems clear that not enough sampling of known breeding locality birds (and with vouchers for future comparison of morphology, including wingtip patterns) exists to say much about all of this. The field remains wide open for someone to nail down a good name and description of what we call Herring Gulls in North America. A discussion of the merits of the split for smithsonianus was discussed by the AOU here: http://www.aou.org/committees/nacc/proposals/2007_B_votes_web.php Maybe Alvaro knows more. Louis Bevier Fairfield, Maine Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Smithsonian Gull - really? From: Millington / Birding World Sales <sales AT BIRDINGWORLD.CO.UK> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 23:15:39 -0000 Hi My personal view (thus no-one should care less) is that American Herring Gull holds immense value as an historical and gobal document ... it seems to me to be a perfectly adequate colloquialism. American Robin seems to have worked jolly well for quite some time now ... cheers Richard From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Alvaro Jaramillo Sent: 07 February 2012 16:29 To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Smithsonian Gull - really? Matt, Bruce et al. The issue that will come up with the AOU or SACC regarding the name American Herring Gull, if the decision is made to separate this taxon, is that this name implies that it is the sister to the European Herring Gull. If a separation is made then the background for that will partially be that they are NOT sister species, available data suggests that smithsonianus is closer to California, Glaucous-winged and a variety of northern gulls than it is to Euro Herring Gull. This may cause a problem for the English Name. There is no rule that says that the English name has to match taxonomy, and we will soon have finches that are tanagers, tanagers that are cardinals, chats that are cardinals, tanagers that are buntings etc etc etc so the English names are certainly muddled here in the New World and some of us are ok with that (I don't want Summer, Western and Scarlet Cardinal-Grosbeaks). Even so, there will be an argument in this case to change it to something neutral that does not suggest a sister species relationship. Then Smithsonian is the default for various reasons, and it is not pretty and as Bruce mentions has historical issues. Maybe a good brainstorm on what a neutral name could be would be good, and informative. Matt, Seagull does not work, but Sea Gull might! Too bad Silver Gull is taken. Boreal Gull? Evil-eyed Gull? Standard Gull? Variable Gull (there is a recently renamed Variable Oriole, and we have the Variable Hawk.so why not)? Regards, Alvaro Alvaro Jaramillo chucao AT coastside.net Half Moon Bay, California Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide www.fieldguides.com _____ From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Matt Sharp Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 7:10 AM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Smithsonian Gull - really? Smithsonian Gull seems more in keeping with naming convention and continuity since the rules of naming means that "smithsonianus" will be retained if the taxon is elevated to species status If a nationality is going to used I think Canadian Herring Gull would be just as appropriate as American Herring Gull though stringing together the old and the new puts one on the slippery slope towards nomenclatural abominations like Saltmarsh Sharp-tailed Sparrow But really I think if a new name is given it should just be called Seagull which would obviate the need to correct all the non-birders who will call them that regardless of the name the "we who know better" end up using. Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Smithsonian Gull - really? From: Louis Bevier <lrbevier AT COLBY.EDU> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 14:23:01 -0500 I wanted to correct my suggestion of Smithson's Gull. This was probably debated somewhere before and I missed it, but I went to Coues's description of the name in the Proceedings of the Academy of Natural Sciences of Philadelphia (1862), which one can read here: http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/page/26361268 On page 300, Coues dedicates the name to the institution, not the man: "I beg leave to dedicate this species to that Institution whose material for the illustration of North American ornithology, unequalled in richness and extent, has so greatly increased our knowledge in this department of Natural History." Apologies for my mistake. As for "American Herring Gull," that is more a coincident of historical use, having been used in the Catalogue of the Birds of the Americas by Hellmayr and Conover (1948), among other major taxonomic references. In general, the AOU has considered the past use of names there when making splits. Louis Bevier Fairfield, Maine Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Smithsonian Gull - really? From: Chris Corben <cjcorben AT HOARYBAT.COM> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 10:48:43 -0600 A lot of Europeans just call it a Smith! Maybe Smith Gull isn't so bad! Has that sort of generic, meaningless, all-encompassing ambiance and nobody is seriously going to worry about who it might have been named after. Chris Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Smithsonian Gull - really? From: Louis Bevier <lrbevier AT COLBY.EDU> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 11:32:39 -0500 America extends from Cabo de Hornos, Chile north to Cape Columbia at the tip of Ellesmere Island, Canada. True, smithsonianus lives mostly in the North American part of that range. America means more than one country. Considering English name alternatives, wouldn't "Smithsonian" be the wrong formation for a species named after someone? This adjectival Latinized name is for Smithson; so wouldn't one call it Smithson's Gull? Sounds like a fine bird name. So is American Herring Gull. Louis Bevier Fairfield, Maine Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Smithsonian Gull - really? From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 08:29:11 -0800 Matt, Bruce et al. The issue that will come up with the AOU or SACC regarding the name American Herring Gull, if the decision is made to separate this taxon, is that this name implies that it is the sister to the European Herring Gull. If a separation is made then the background for that will partially be that they are NOT sister species, available data suggests that smithsonianus is closer to California, Glaucous-winged and a variety of northern gulls than it is to Euro Herring Gull. This may cause a problem for the English Name. There is no rule that says that the English name has to match taxonomy, and we will soon have finches that are tanagers, tanagers that are cardinals, chats that are cardinals, tanagers that are buntings etc etc etc so the English names are certainly muddled here in the New World and some of us are ok with that (I don't want Summer, Western and Scarlet Cardinal-Grosbeaks). Even so, there will be an argument in this case to change it to something neutral that does not suggest a sister species relationship. Then Smithsonian is the default for various reasons, and it is not pretty and as Bruce mentions has historical issues. Maybe a good brainstorm on what a neutral name could be would be good, and informative. Matt, Seagull does not work, but Sea Gull might! Too bad Silver Gull is taken. Boreal Gull? Evil-eyed Gull? Standard Gull? Variable Gull (there is a recently renamed Variable Oriole, and we have the Variable Hawk.so why not)? Regards, Alvaro Alvaro Jaramillo chucao AT coastside.net Half Moon Bay, California Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide www.fieldguides.com _____ From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Matt Sharp Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 7:10 AM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Smithsonian Gull - really? Smithsonian Gull seems more in keeping with naming convention and continuity since the rules of naming means that "smithsonianus" will be retained if the taxon is elevated to species status If a nationality is going to used I think Canadian Herring Gull would be just as appropriate as American Herring Gull though stringing together the old and the new puts one on the slippery slope towards nomenclatural abominations like Saltmarsh Sharp-tailed Sparrow But really I think if a new name is given it should just be called Seagull which would obviate the need to correct all the non-birders who will call them that regardless of the name the "we who know better" end up using. Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Thayer's Gull mantle shade From: Jean Iron <jeaniron AT SYMPATICO.CA> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 10:12:47 -0500 Our experience with Thayer's Gull in Ontario is that mantle shade is very similar to Herring Gull (smithsonianus) but sometimes minutely darker in direct comparison. No one has quantified the difference in mantle shade between Thayer's and Herring Gulls as far as we know. However, such a study has been done with Thayer's and Kumlien's Gulls. See below. Michel Gosselin (pers. comm.) of the Canadian Museum of Nature made a study of 80 adult breeding specimens and additional winter adults of Thayer’s and Kumlien’s in the museum. His examination included primary pigmentation and pattern, and mantle colour. He arbitrarily considered as pure Thayer’s those adult birds with five or more dark tipped primaries, occurring north or west of Home Bay on Baffin Island. Using a printers gray scale (0 = white, 100 = black), he found that mantle colour taken from the small upperwing coverts ranged from 45 to 55 in Thayer’s (n = 57, mean = 50) and from 30 to 50 in Kumlien’s (n = 21, mean = 38). The shade of the darkest wingtip markings ranged from 62 to 75 in Thayer’s (n = 54, mean = 69) and from 35 to 70 in Kumlien’s (n = 19, mean = 44). Ron Pittaway and Jean Iron Toronto, Ontario Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Smithsonian Gull - really? From: Matt Sharp <msharp01 AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 10:09:49 -0500 Smithsonian Gull seems more in keeping with naming convention and continuity since the rules of naming means that "smithsonianus" will be retained if the taxon is elevated to species status If a nationality is going to used I think Canadian Herring Gull would be just as appropriate as American Herring Gull though stringing together the old and the new puts one on the slippery slope towards nomenclatural abominations like Saltmarsh Sharp-tailed Sparrow But really I think if a new name is given it should just be called Seagull which would obviate the need to correct all the non-birders who will call them that regardless of the name the "we who know better" end up using. Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN From: Cliff and Lisa Weisse <CliffandLisa AT OCTOBERSETTERS.COM> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 07:44:04 -0700 I looked at Geoff's image of the pale Kumlien's at the link below and thought I'd add an observation to the discussion of mantle shade. In Jan 2011 my wife and I observed an adult kumlien's roosting on ice near Salt Lake City, UT at approximately 100 yards. It was with Ring-billed and California Gulls and its mantle was noticeably paler than nearby Ring-billeds. There was enough difference that it was easy to pick out by mantle shade and that's what first caught our eye. Most of the birds were laying at the same angle so I don't think light angle was responsible for the apparent difference. Unfortunately there are no photos but this individual had a short thin bill, yellow iris, was slightly larger than nearby CAGUs, and had at least one dusky subterminal bar on an outer primary (folded wing). When it got up it flew directly over our heads and there were two dusky outer primary webs visible. Based on structure and dusky markings in the primaries it wasn't a small GLGU. For what it's worth, we also see Thayer's Gulls in the same area and, although I don't necessarily try to evaluate mantle shade relative to nearby Herrings, we are often able to see the difference between Thayer's and nearby Herrings. I agree it would be difficult to pick these THGUs out by mantle shade alone but in direct comparison they look slightly darker. Cliff On 2/6/2012 9:26 PM, Geoffrey A. Williamson wrote: > http://home.comcast.net/~geoffrey.williamson/icegul.html > . > > > > > > At 10:51 PM 2/5/2012, you wrote: >> Hi - >> >> A few more comments on this most interesting thread. Geoffrey, even >> though >> I am replying to your post, my comments are more to the thread as a whole >> than to your posting. >> >> I would ask you and others who respond to the request for ratios of >> Thayers >> vs Kumlein's, etc. to specify age classes. Some age classes may show >> significantly more overlap in the characters we use than others, >> particularly when we are looking at late winter-spring faded and worn >> birds. >> >> From my own observations in Oregon: >> >> Thayer's Gulls are regular in winter with all age classes represented. I >> believe the bulk of the birds here winter at sea over the continental >> shelf, >> as we see big influxes associated with windstorms. I do see a few birds >> (10% of adults?) with some character overlap with Herring Gulls. >> Most often >> this is pale eyes, although usually not the same clear yellow. I do see >> quite a few adults I identify as Herring that have wingtip patterns >> trending >> toward Thayer's, but with clear yellow eyes and structural features >> typical >> of Herring. Occasionally I see a bird that looks like a Herring Gull >> (adult) but with some melanin in the iris. >> >> In the past 13 years I have seen two birds in Oregon that I thought might >> have been some flavor of Iceland Gull (the first looked to me more like >> glaucoides than kumleini). The first was first-cycle, and was >> clearly the >> smallest, most petite-structured bird in a flock of 50+ pink-footed >> gulls. >> It had a petite, mostly pink bill with a black tip, a rounded head, >> relatively large eyes, and long-looking primaries. The character >> that was >> most problematic for glaucoides was relatively long legs. The consensus >> among Oregon larophiles who saw photos was that it was a Glaucous Gull! >> The smallest Glaucous Gulls are supposed to be subspecies barrovianus >> (spelling?) from Alaska, and they apparently can have narrower bills, >> longer >> wings relative to tails, etc. than other Glaucous Gulls, and Oregon >> birders >> will not accept a bird as glaucoides (either ssp.) if it deviates in >> any way >> from the ideal. (In fact Oregon has no accepted Iceland Gull records.) >> >> The second was a first-cycle bird from last April with a short, >> mostly dark >> bill, rounded head with large eye, primaries long and basically >> white. This >> was a small, very pale bird with very checkered but faint pattern. Of >> course, by April, most young gulls are pretty faded. I did not >> bother to >> share photos. >> >> I have not tried to look for kumleini at the dark end of the >> spectrum, as we >> tend to assign birds in overlap zones to the more common taxon. I do see >> fairly pale first-cycle Thayer's from time to time, but not so far >> from the >> norm I would want to argue for kumleini . >> >> Wayne >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification >> [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Geoffrey A. >> Williamson >> Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 6:24 PM >> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU >> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN >> >> Over 17 years of my own records in the Chicago area (southern Lake >> Michigan), the ratio of Thayer's to Kumlien's is about 4:1. The >> numbers are 330 Thayer's and 86 Kumlien's. However, when faced with >> large groups of gulls, I believe I am undercounting the Thayer's as >> they are >> harder to pick out than the Kumlien's. So Amar's 6:1 seems reasonable to >> me. >> >> It's also worth mentioning that here along southern Lake Michigan, >> though as >> Amar has mentioned there are confusing individuals that one cannot >> readily >> assigned to either taxon, the distribution in appearance is quite bimodal >> with most individuals easily placed in one of two groups. >> >> Sincerely, >> Geoff Williamson >> Chicago, Illinois, USA >> >> >> At 06:07 PM 2/4/2012, you wrote: >> >Hi Amar- >> > >> >I was actually under the impression that Kumlien's was as more or just >> >as likely to be encountered in the western Great Lakes region as >> >Thayer's, so your ratio of Thayer's to Kumlien's on that end is >> >surprising and new to me. >> >> Geoffrey A. Williamson >> geoffrey.williamson AT comcast.net >> >> >> Join or Leave BIRDWG01: >> http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 >> >> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > > Geoffrey A. Williamson > geoffrey.williamson AT comcast.net > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > -- Cliff and Lisa Weisse Island Park, Idaho cliffandlisa AT octobersetters.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Smithsonian Gull - really? From: Bruce Webb <BruWebb AT SUREWEST.NET> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 23:15:34 -0800 Seeing "Smithsonian Gull" mentioned on ID-Frontiers makes me wonder: Could such a poor idea for a revised name gain traction? The gull formerly known as Larus argentatus smithsonianus, aka Herring Gull by the AOU has a different recognized popular name. American Herring Gull as a new English name has been published in many gull references we use. Regardless, Wikipedia and Facebook, hardly sources of scientific work, have pages dedicated to naming Larus smithsonianus as the Smithsonian Gull. When "American" is added to Herring Gull, we maintain continuity with a familiar taxon, plus we add some geographic context. Moreover, it fits the fine tradition we established long ago for dealing with other like-named, similar-looking Eurasian birds: American Wigeon, American Kestrel, American Coot, American Golden-Plover, American Oystercatcher, etc. On Saturday while I was inside one of the museums bearing his name in Washington, DC. I learned that James Smithson never set foot in the Americas. He was a British chemist and mineralogist, (not an ornithologist) who ultimately left his massive fortune in gold to the United States. His will was contested by the British but their lawsuit failed. As such, our British birding friends would enjoy the irony of the AOU naming it Smithsonian Gull. But, then, I still think the AOU messed up not naming Western Winter Wren and Eastern WInter Wren on the AOU list. -- Bruce Webb Granite Bay, CA 'Have scope - Will travel' Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN From: "Geoffrey A. Williamson" <geoffrey.williamson AT COMCAST.NET> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 22:26:52 -0600 Dear Wayne et al.: Here is the breakdown by age class for my southern Lake Michigan birds. Thayer's Gulls 1st cycle - 63 2nd cycle - 24 3rd cycle - 10 imm. - 6 adult - 200 age not recorded - 24 Kumlien's Gull 1st cycle - 27 2nd cycle - 10 3rd cycle - 5 imm. - 2 adult - 37 age not recorded - 5 I have three individuals, all adults, that I have explicitly marked as Thayer's/Kumlien's. There are other intermediate birds, but in my records they've been lumped in with one of the other species without explicit notes taken. For two of the birds I recorded as Kumlien's (one adult, one first cycle), I have remarks in my notes about features indicating the possibility of glaucoides, but there is insufficient detail in my records to make a good case of it. There are more Kumlien's at the pale end than what I have specific remarks about. For instance, one bird is recorded in my database simply as a Kumlien's, without comment, but I also have photos shown here: http://home.comcast.net/~geoffrey.williamson/icegul.html. I was never able to observe that one closely. Most of the very white-winged Kumlien's type that we get around here have some little bit of gray in the primaries if you look closely enough. Though I wasn't able to study this one's wings closely, it appears, however, to have a decidedly paler mantle than the nearby Herring Gulls. I also have comments about the pale eyes for one adult Thayer's Gull. There have been other instances of this, too, but they've gone without remark in my notes. Best wishes, Geoff Williamson At 10:51 PM 2/5/2012, you wrote: >Hi - > >A few more comments on this most interesting thread. Geoffrey, even though >I am replying to your post, my comments are more to the thread as a whole >than to your posting. > >I would ask you and others who respond to the request for ratios of Thayers >vs Kumlein's, etc. to specify age classes. Some age classes may show >significantly more overlap in the characters we use than others, >particularly when we are looking at late winter-spring faded and worn birds. > > From my own observations in Oregon: > >Thayer's Gulls are regular in winter with all age classes represented. I >believe the bulk of the birds here winter at sea over the continental shelf, >as we see big influxes associated with windstorms. I do see a few birds >(10% of adults?) with some character overlap with Herring Gulls. Most often >this is pale eyes, although usually not the same clear yellow. I do see >quite a few adults I identify as Herring that have wingtip patterns trending >toward Thayer's, but with clear yellow eyes and structural features typical >of Herring. Occasionally I see a bird that looks like a Herring Gull >(adult) but with some melanin in the iris. > >In the past 13 years I have seen two birds in Oregon that I thought might >have been some flavor of Iceland Gull (the first looked to me more like >glaucoides than kumleini). The first was first-cycle, and was clearly the >smallest, most petite-structured bird in a flock of 50+ pink-footed gulls. >It had a petite, mostly pink bill with a black tip, a rounded head, >relatively large eyes, and long-looking primaries. The character that was >most problematic for glaucoides was relatively long legs. The consensus >among Oregon larophiles who saw photos was that it was a Glaucous Gull! >The smallest Glaucous Gulls are supposed to be subspecies barrovianus >(spelling?) from Alaska, and they apparently can have narrower bills, longer >wings relative to tails, etc. than other Glaucous Gulls, and Oregon birders >will not accept a bird as glaucoides (either ssp.) if it deviates in any way >from the ideal. (In fact Oregon has no accepted Iceland Gull records.) > >The second was a first-cycle bird from last April with a short, mostly dark >bill, rounded head with large eye, primaries long and basically white. This >was a small, very pale bird with very checkered but faint pattern. Of >course, by April, most young gulls are pretty faded. I did not bother to >share photos. > >I have not tried to look for kumleini at the dark end of the spectrum, as we >tend to assign birds in overlap zones to the more common taxon. I do see >fairly pale first-cycle Thayer's from time to time, but not so far from the >norm I would want to argue for kumleini . > >Wayne > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification >[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Geoffrey A. Williamson >Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 6:24 PM >To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU >Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN > >Over 17 years of my own records in the Chicago area (southern Lake >Michigan), the ratio of Thayer's to Kumlien's is about 4:1. The >numbers are 330 Thayer's and 86 Kumlien's. However, when faced with >large groups of gulls, I believe I am undercounting the Thayer's as they are >harder to pick out than the Kumlien's. So Amar's 6:1 seems reasonable to >me. > >It's also worth mentioning that here along southern Lake Michigan, though as >Amar has mentioned there are confusing individuals that one cannot readily >assigned to either taxon, the distribution in appearance is quite bimodal >with most individuals easily placed in one of two groups. > >Sincerely, >Geoff Williamson >Chicago, Illinois, USA > > >At 06:07 PM 2/4/2012, you wrote: > >Hi Amar- > > > >I was actually under the impression that Kumlien's was as more or just > >as likely to be encountered in the western Great Lakes region as > >Thayer's, so your ratio of Thayer's to Kumlien's on that end is > >surprising and new to me. > >Geoffrey A. Williamson >geoffrey.williamson AT comcast.net > > >Join or Leave BIRDWG01: >http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > >Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Geoffrey A. Williamson geoffrey.williamson AT comcast.net Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Thayer’s – Iceland Gulls ID field marks; plus ID case from Texas From: Mark B Bartosik <mbb22222 AT AOL.COM> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 18:32:29 -0700 Hi All, I am checking with great interest all latest posts about Thayer’s – Iceland Gulls. Having no field experience with these gulls I learned a lot just by reading your opinions. Only recently I decided to stop turning my head away when I see some juvenile gulls. During this year, January and now February there is a small number of Thayer’s type gulls showing up on Texas Upper Coast (along shore in Galveston and Brazoria counties). But here is one that I have problem with. First it is very ‘petite’ (tad bigger than average Ring-billed; smaller than Lesser Black-backed; obviously much smaller than Herring); tertials are lacking dark centered pattern (field mark typically listed and well illustrated in many guides for Thayer‘s but not for Iceland), to me primaries are not really darker than brownish color on some body feathers, secondary bar is not really prominent (see flight photo from above with even lighting) etc; but perhaps I should stop lengthy description of my worries as this case probably will take a second for an expert to ID this bird. Of course I would appreciate any remarks on ID of this gull; which field marks are important and constant and which are not in Thayer‘s - Iceland identification. I am afraid that unfortunately many interesting gulls are gone unnoticed as many people are afraid to keep asking the ID questions about so many gulls they see (me included); BTW, recently I learned to admire a lot those who mastered gull identification. here are links to photos of the gull described above: Standing http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/141345787 Head http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/141345790 , http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/141345796 Tertials http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/141345794 On wing from above http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/141345799 On wing http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/141345784 http://www.pbase.com/mbb/image/141345802 In case more photos are needed I will be able to upload some more in couple of days as I am going to be away from my computer and might even have problem with checking my emails as well. Thanks in advance Mark Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Thayer's Gull mantle shade From: Wayne Hoffman <whoffman AT PEAK.ORG> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 13:39:25 -0800 Hi - Tony wrote: "It is fairly well-known that color-discernment capabilities vary widely among humans, thus, marginal differences in color and tone in gulls are probably not useful to many birders in separating THGU from SMGU." I agree with this,but would like to elaborate: I think the differences among birders are not so much in detection capabilities, but rather in processing capabilities. I think most of us have retinas that can record very fine color and shade distinctions, but we differ in the ability to correct for sun intensity, angle, etc. Further I think making these distinctions is a skill that to a fair extent can be learned. In my local experience, adult Herring Gulls do have paler mantles than Thayer's, with moderate (<<50%) overlap. I do often note the difference, but tend to see other distinctions first - eye and bill color, head shape, etc. Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Leukering" To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Monday, February 6, 2012 1:15:26 PM Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Thayer's Gull mantle shade Karl et al.: In my experience in Colorado and Sonora, where I've seen most of the Thayer's Gulls (THGU) that I've seen, I find that 1 in 8 or 1 in 10 adults are slightly darker than nearby Smithsonian (aka Herring) Gulls (all, presumably, western Smithsonian Gulls [SMGU]); the rest I find indistinguishable in mantle color. Whether this is due to Thayer's averaging slightly darker or variation in mantle color of Smithsonian Gull neighbors, I cannot say. While I did not look at every picture that Karl provided in his mantle-color comparisons, on my screen and to my eye, the top right and bottom left THGUs look marginally darker than their neighbor SMGUs, with the bottom left bird also looking bluer than the SMGU. Of the seven or so other pix I ogled, I did not discern any mantle-color difference. It is fairly well-known that color-discernment capabilities vary widely among humans, thus, marginal differences in color and tone in gulls are probably not useful to many birders in separating THGU from SMGU. In fact, had the two birds that I felt were darker-mantled been amongst a sea of SMGUs and I were scanning the lot, I would certainly not have picked those birds out on mantle color, primarily due to the great effect that sun angle can have in apparent tone of gray, which, in most cases, I believe, swamps any real difference in mantle color between the two taxa. Sincerely, Tony Leukering Villas, NJ -----Original Message----- From: Karl Bardon To: BIRDWG01 Sent: Mon, Feb 6, 2012 3:40 pm Subject: [BIRDWG01] Thayer's Gull mantle shade For the last few winters, I have attempted to document the number of individual Iceland and Thayer's Gulls (and other gulls) in Duluth-Superior based on photographs, and have found that each bird is individually recognizable based on various features. Data from the last three winters shows 170 Thayer's (52 adults, 15 third-cycles, 24 second-cycles, and 79 first-cycles), and 34 Icelands (15 adults, 3 third-cycles, 4 second-cycles, and 12 first-cycles) in Duluth-Superior, but of course some birds fall sort of inbetween. Photos of many of these individuals, including wing details of all the adult Iceland and Thayer's can be be seen at www.pbase.com/karlbardon . This is in response to Dave Brown's question about Thayer's Gull mantle shades. Although Thayer's Gulls are often said to have slightly darker mantles than Herring Gulls (eg., by Howell and Dunn), only rarely have I ever been able to see any difference. Almost always, adult Thayer's completely blend into the crowd of Herrings and are not distinguishable based on mantle shade alone. I uploaded 14 photos of adult Thayer's from Duluth-Superior to show this similarity ( http://www.pbase.com/karlbardon/thgumantle ). According to Howell and Dunn, Herring Gulls are slightly paler mantled in the East and on the Great Lakes compared to the West- and I am not aware of any regional differences in Thayer's Gull mantle shades- so where I look at gulls the most, here in Duluth, is where there should be a difference in mantle shade- but there isn't. So where do Thayer's actually appear slightly darker mantled than Herring Gulls? Even many Kumlien's appear similar to Herring Gulls in mantle shade, especially the more cryptic, darker-winged adults which are often not identifiable as Icelands (from Thayer's) until photos of the bird in flight are examined for differences in primary pattern. Often only the paler-winged Kumlien's appear noticeably paler in mantle shade compared to Herring Gulls. I have always been puzzled why Thayer's is said to have a slightly darker mantle than Herring. Karl Bardon Duluth, MN Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Thayer's Gull mantle shade From: Tony Leukering <greatgrayowl AT AOL.COM> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 16:15:26 -0500 Karl et al.: In my experience in Colorado and Sonora, where I've seen most of the Thayer's Gulls (THGU) that I've seen, I find that 1 in 8 or 1 in 10 adults are slightly darker than nearby Smithsonian (aka Herring) Gulls (all, presumably, western Smithsonian Gulls [SMGU]); the rest I find indistinguishable in mantle color. Whether this is due to Thayer's averaging slightly darker or variation in mantle color of Smithsonian Gull neighbors, I cannot say. While I did not look at every picture that Karl provided in his mantle-color comparisons, on my screen and to my eye, the top right and bottom left THGUs look marginally darker than their neighbor SMGUs, with the bottom left bird also looking bluer than the SMGU. Of the seven or so other pix I ogled, I did not discern any mantle-color difference. It is fairly well-known that color-discernment capabilities vary widely among humans, thus, marginal differences in color and tone in gulls are probably not useful to many birders in separating THGU from SMGU. In fact, had the two birds that I felt were darker-mantled been amongst a sea of SMGUs and I were scanning the lot, I would certainly not have picked those birds out on mantle color, primarily due to the great effect that sun angle can have in apparent tone of gray, which, in most cases, I believe, swamps any real difference in mantle color between the two taxa. Sincerely, Tony Leukering Villas, NJ -----Original Message----- From: Karl Bardon To: BIRDWG01 Sent: Mon, Feb 6, 2012 3:40 pm Subject: [BIRDWG01] Thayer's Gull mantle shade For the last few winters, I have attempted to document the number of individual Iceland and Thayer's Gulls (and other gulls) in Duluth-Superior based on photographs, and have found that each bird is individually recognizable based on various features. Data from the last three winters shows 170 Thayer's (52 adults, 15 third-cycles, 24 second-cycles, and 79 first-cycles), and 34 Icelands (15 adults, 3 third-cycles, 4 second-cycles, and 12 first-cycles) in Duluth-Superior, but of course some birds fall sort of inbetween. Photos of many of these individuals, including wing details of all the adult Iceland and Thayer's can be be seen at www.pbase.com/karlbardon. This is in response to Dave Brown's question about Thayer's Gull mantle shades. Although Thayer's Gulls are often said to have slightly darker mantles than Herring Gulls (eg., by Howell and Dunn), only rarely have I ever been able to see any difference. Almost always, adult Thayer's completely blend into the crowd of Herrings and are not distinguishable based on mantle shade alone. I uploaded 14 photos of adult Thayer's from Duluth-Superior to show this similarity (http://www.pbase.com/karlbardon/thgumantle). According to Howell and Dunn, Herring Gulls are slightly paler mantled in the East and on the Great Lakes compared to the West- and I am not aware of any regional differences in Thayer's Gull mantle shades- so where I look at gulls the most, here in Duluth, is where there should be a difference in mantle shade- but there isn't. So where do Thayer's actually appear slightly darker mantled than Herring Gulls? Even many Kumlien's appear similar to Herring Gulls in mantle shade, especially the more cryptic, darker-winged adults which are often not identifiable as Icelands (from Thayer's) until photos of the bird in flight are examined for differences in primary pattern. Often only the paler-winged Kumlien's appear noticeably paler in mantle shade compared to Herring Gulls. I have always been puzzled why Thayer's is said to have a slightly darker mantle than Herring. Karl Bardon Duluth, MN Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Thayer's Gull mantle shade From: Karl Bardon <karl_bardon AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 12:40:16 -0800 For the last few winters, I have attempted to document the number of individual Iceland and Thayer's Gulls (and other gulls) in Duluth-Superior based on photographs, and have found that each bird is individually recognizable based on various features. Data from the last three winters shows 170 Thayer's (52 adults, 15 third-cycles, 24 second-cycles, and 79 first-cycles), and 34 Icelands (15 adults, 3 third-cycles, 4 second-cycles, and 12 first-cycles) in Duluth-Superior, but of course some birds fall sort of inbetween. Photos of many of these individuals, including wing details of all the adult Iceland and Thayer's can be be seen at www.pbase.com/karlbardon. This is in response to Dave Brown's question about Thayer's Gull mantle shades. Although Thayer's Gulls are often said to have slightly darker mantles than Herring Gulls (eg., by Howell and Dunn), only rarely have I ever been able to see any difference. Almost always, adult Thayer's completely blend into the crowd of Herrings and are not distinguishable based on mantle shade alone. I uploaded 14 photos of adult Thayer's from Duluth-Superior to show this similarity (http://www.pbase.com/karlbardon/thgumantle). According to Howell and Dunn, Herring Gulls are slightly paler mantled in the East and on the Great Lakes compared to the West- and I am not aware of any regional differences in Thayer's Gull mantle shades- so where I look at gulls the most, here in Duluth, is where there should be a difference in mantle shade- but there isn't. So where do Thayer's actually appear slightly darker mantled than Herring Gulls? Even many Kumlien's appear similar to Herring Gulls in mantle shade, especially the more cryptic, darker-winged adults which are often not identifiable as Icelands (from Thayer's) until photos of the bird in flight are examined for differences in primary pattern. Often only the paler-winged Kumlien's appear noticeably paler in mantle shade compared to Herring Gulls. I have always been puzzled why Thayer's is said to have a slightly darker mantle than Herring. Karl Bardon Duluth, MN Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Band-tailed Pigeon - iris colour? From: Jean Iron <jeaniron AT SYMPATICO.CA> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 13:53:40 -0500 After seeing the Band-tailed Pigeon in Muskoka, Ontario yesterday, we wondered about the iris colour in the species. Major North American field guides show the eye colour as dark. However, the Band-tailed Pigeon illustration in The Birds of Canada (Godfrey 1986, plate 41) shows a yellow eye similar to the yellow base of the bill. Furthermore, the authoritative Birdlife of Texas (Oberholser 1974) says the eyes are yellow and its detailed text descriptions describe adult iris colour as "straw color or cream buff". The juvenile's iris is described as "dresden brown" indicating an age difference. One more example, The Birds of Ecuador (Ridgely and Greenfield 2001) in illustrate a Band-tailed Pigeon on plate 28 with a yellow iris. Are the different iris colours (dark vs. yellow) of adults in the literature examples of geographical or individual variation? Photos of Band-tailed Pigeon in Ontario. http://www.jeaniron.ca/2012/btpigeon.htm Ron Pittaway and Jean Iron Toronto, Ontario Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN From: Phil Pickering <philliplc AT CHARTER.NET> Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 21:48:29 -0800 >(In fact Oregon has no accepted Iceland Gull records.) For what it's worth the OBRC website lists 3 accepted records as of 2010. Not sure if these have been reassessed in the interim. Phil Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN From: Wayne Hoffman <whoffman AT PEAK.ORG> Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 20:51:28 -0800 Hi - A few more comments on this most interesting thread. Geoffrey, even though I am replying to your post, my comments are more to the thread as a whole than to your posting. I would ask you and others who respond to the request for ratios of Thayers vs Kumlein's, etc. to specify age classes. Some age classes may show significantly more overlap in the characters we use than others, particularly when we are looking at late winter-spring faded and worn birds. From my own observations in Oregon: Thayer's Gulls are regular in winter with all age classes represented. I believe the bulk of the birds here winter at sea over the continental shelf, as we see big influxes associated with windstorms. I do see a few birds (10% of adults?) with some character overlap with Herring Gulls. Most often this is pale eyes, although usually not the same clear yellow. I do see quite a few adults I identify as Herring that have wingtip patterns trending toward Thayer's, but with clear yellow eyes and structural features typical of Herring. Occasionally I see a bird that looks like a Herring Gull (adult) but with some melanin in the iris. In the past 13 years I have seen two birds in Oregon that I thought might have been some flavor of Iceland Gull (the first looked to me more like glaucoides than kumleini). The first was first-cycle, and was clearly the smallest, most petite-structured bird in a flock of 50+ pink-footed gulls. It had a petite, mostly pink bill with a black tip, a rounded head, relatively large eyes, and long-looking primaries. The character that was most problematic for glaucoides was relatively long legs. The consensus among Oregon larophiles who saw photos was that it was a Glaucous Gull! The smallest Glaucous Gulls are supposed to be subspecies barrovianus (spelling?) from Alaska, and they apparently can have narrower bills, longer wings relative to tails, etc. than other Glaucous Gulls, and Oregon birders will not accept a bird as glaucoides (either ssp.) if it deviates in any way from the ideal. (In fact Oregon has no accepted Iceland Gull records.) The second was a first-cycle bird from last April with a short, mostly dark bill, rounded head with large eye, primaries long and basically white. This was a small, very pale bird with very checkered but faint pattern. Of course, by April, most young gulls are pretty faded. I did not bother to share photos. I have not tried to look for kumleini at the dark end of the spectrum, as we tend to assign birds in overlap zones to the more common taxon. I do see fairly pale first-cycle Thayer's from time to time, but not so far from the norm I would want to argue for kumleini . Wayne -----Original Message----- From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Geoffrey A. Williamson Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 6:24 PM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN Over 17 years of my own records in the Chicago area (southern Lake Michigan), the ratio of Thayer's to Kumlien's is about 4:1. The numbers are 330 Thayer's and 86 Kumlien's. However, when faced with large groups of gulls, I believe I am undercounting the Thayer's as they are harder to pick out than the Kumlien's. So Amar's 6:1 seems reasonable to me. It's also worth mentioning that here along southern Lake Michigan, though as Amar has mentioned there are confusing individuals that one cannot readily assigned to either taxon, the distribution in appearance is quite bimodal with most individuals easily placed in one of two groups. Sincerely, Geoff Williamson Chicago, Illinois, USA At 06:07 PM 2/4/2012, you wrote: >Hi Amar- > >I was actually under the impression that Kumlien's was as more or just >as likely to be encountered in the western Great Lakes region as >Thayer's, so your ratio of Thayer's to Kumlien's on that end is >surprising and new to me. Geoffrey A. Williamson geoffrey.williamson AT comcast.net Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Photos of possible Kelp Gull at Brownsville, TX dump on 3 February 2012 From: Peter Adriaens <p_adriaens AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 09:57:39 -0800 Hi, I do not know much about Kelp Gulls, but I would like to back up Alvaro here: the Florida bird is not moulting. All of the primaries are still there: you can count them. I make it 10. Also, all of the inner primaries are still juvenile (notice, for instance, how pointed they are at the end of the shaft); they have not been moulted. In any case, it would make no sense for a gull to replace so many inner primaries but not a single wing covert. Kind regards, Peter >________________________________ > From: Alvaro Jaramillo >To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU >Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2012 5:38 PM >Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Photos of possible Kelp Gull at Brownsville, TX dump on 3 February 2012 > > > >Norman, >  >     I will try again. This bird is NOT on a typical southern Kelp Gull molt schedule. I repeat, it is not on a southern hemisphere molt cycle (please read my note). I am also not convinced that this bird is molting, I would have to see other photos, it might be a trick of how the wing is being held. If this bird is molting, the  molt is wrong for either species. >  >Alvaro >  >Alvaro Jaramillo >chucao AT coastside.net >Half Moon Bay , California >  >Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide >www.fieldguides.com > >________________________________ > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Photos of possible Kelp Gull at Brownsville, TX dump on 3 February 2012 From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET> Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 08:38:12 -0800 Norman, I will try again. This bird is NOT on a typical southern Kelp Gull molt schedule. I repeat, it is not on a southern hemisphere molt cycle (please read my note). I am also not convinced that this bird is molting, I would have to see other photos, it might be a trick of how the wing is being held. If this bird is molting, the molt is wrong for either species. Alvaro Alvaro Jaramillo chucao AT coastside.net Half Moon Bay, California Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide www.fieldguides.com _____ From: Norman Deans van Swelm [mailto:norman.vanswelm AT wxs.nl] Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 7:11 AM To: Amar Ayyash; David Irons; BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU; Alvaro Jaramillo Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Photos of possible Kelp Gull at Brownsville, TX dump on 3 February 2012 Ehm, Alvaro, did these Florida monsters also show a southern hemisphere moult cycle as the Texan bird does? Cheers, Norman Alvaro Jaramillo wrote: > Cool looking bird! Any crows around too? In any case, my opinion is that this is a large and bulky Lesser Black-backed Gull. In the 150 or so I saw in Florida last week there were a few monsters like this. They are the minority though. Structurally, this bird is pretty good for Kelp, but in structure it does overlap with a larger Lesser Black-backed Gull. These are the reasons I think it is a Lesser BB and not a Kelp: - Tail pattern. Kelp tends to have a largely dark tail in the first cycle with restricted barring on the base of the outers. A tail much more like a smithsonianus than a Lesser BB. That dark tail contrasts strongly with a whitish rump and uppertail coverts though, unlike smithsonianus. There are some Kelps with more white at tail base, but this bird shows more than what is common or expected on Kelp. - Back pattern of second generation feathers. The Texas bird shows dark anchor shaped marks on the scapulars, a pattern common to some Lesser BB Gulls. Kelp matures early, and the second generation feathers are either sooty grey, or very dark brownish and unpatterned except for a messy buffy or whitish tip. Rarely are there anchor type patterns in Kelp, and these are restricted to a few feathers. - Molt. I am not convinced that this bird is molting; it might be showing a mis-arranged primary. I guess more photos might clarify this. In any case, now is not when you would expect a first cycle Kelp to be molting primaries. Pacific Kelps are fledging right now, the Atlantic Kelps have fledged a few months ago (Juveniles in December in Uruguay, while they are not seen until February in Chile). These birds keep their juvenile wings throughout the winter, the earliest you expect to see inner primary molt is in early spring, roughly early to mid November. In February you will see adults in primary molt, but first cycle birds have probably finished by now. Having said this a molting first cycle Kelp will look worn and bedraggled, and will show new and sooty grey inner median coverts as these come in roughly when the first primaries start to go. - Bill color is entirely blackish. This is expected in juvenile Kelps but by the time they are a few months old some pale begins to appear in the bill. By the time they are starting the first wing molt they should have substantial yellowish-pink at the base of the bill. - Tertials on the Texas bird look dark with a fine pale edge. This pattern is not as common on Kelp as a dark tertials with a very large and distinct white tip. Sorry to be a downer, but my guess is that this is not a Kelp. I could be wrong, and my understanding of Kelp may be biased towards the more southern birds, but then again the northern populations are relatively recently established from more southern birds. Good birding Alvaro Alvaro Jaramillo chucao AT coastside.net Half Moon Bay, California Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide www.fieldguides.com _____ From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of David Irons Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 9:14 PM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: [BIRDWG01] Photos of possible Kelp Gull at Brownsville, TX dump on 3 February 2012 Greetings All, Shawneen Finnegan and I are currently vacationing in the Rio Grande Valley of Texas. Today we spent about 1.5 hours at the Brownsville dump. In addition to finding a 1st-cycle Lesser Black-backed Gull and a presumed 1st-cycle Thayer's Gull--it was quite washed out and showed less contrast than Thayer's we see at home in Oregon--Shawneen found a 1st-cycle gull with a very heavy/thick all-dark bill. She pointed it out to me and my first impression was that structurally it seemed like a miniature 1st-cycle Great Black-backed Gull, but it was much too small to be that species. We saw it in association with Laughing, Ring-billed, and Herring Gulls and soon after finding this bird found the 1st-cycle Lesser Black-backed Gull. It was clearly larger than the Ring-billeds, but was shorter in stature--both length and height--than the Herring Gulls. It was heavy-necked, definitely chunkier than the Lesser Black-backed and chunkier/less rangy than the myriad of Herring Gulls that we were present. We concluded that this bird is most suggestive of a Kelp Gull. Of course the possibility of Kelp Gull X Herring Gull cannot be easily ruled out given our limited understanding of the appearance of this hybrid during its first plumage cycle. One thing that can be seen in the flight shot is that the bird is molting primary feathers. This fits the molt sequence for Kelp Gull and does not fit the molt sequence for North American larids. Shawneen's prior experience with Kelp Gull is limited to seeing the adult in Maryland more than a decade ago and I have no experience with this species. We welcome opinions on the photos at the link below. Mary Gustafson and perhaps others plan to try to relocate this bird tomorrow. I have a few other photos of this bird that I will add to the gallery at the link below when we get home in a few days. http://www.birdfellow.com/photos/gallery/436-brownsville-cameron-co-tx-dump- 03-february-2012 Once you open this gallery in thumbnail view, you can click on the featured image and make it full-page. Dave Irons and Shawneen Finnegan Portland, OR (currently in San Benito, TX) Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Thayer's Gull ? From: petteri mäkelä <petteri.makela AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 15:24:13 +0200 Hi! Looks like fairly normal argentatus Herring Gull for me. Petteri Mäkelä, Finland On 5 February 2012 14:18, Marcin Faber wrote: > Dear All, > The following 1st winter gull looking like Thayer's I've photographed on > the Polish Baltic coast last week: > > http://www.interrex.nazwa.pl/**th.jpg > > I'd appreciate your thoughts. > Thank you in advance. > Marcin Faber > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/** > cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/**archives/birdwg01.html > -- http://himopointsaaja.blogspot.com/ Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Thayer's Gull ? From: Marcin Faber <marfaber AT POCZTA.ONET.PL> Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 13:18:41 +0100 Dear All, The following 1st winter gull looking like Thayer's I've photographed on the Polish Baltic coast last week: http://www.interrex.nazwa.pl/th.jpg I'd appreciate your thoughts. Thank you in advance. Marcin Faber Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN From: "Geoffrey A. Williamson" <geoffrey.williamson AT COMCAST.NET> Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 20:23:47 -0600 Over 17 years of my own records in the Chicago area (southern Lake Michigan), the ratio of Thayer's to Kumlien's is about 4:1. The numbers are 330 Thayer's and 86 Kumlien's. However, when faced with large groups of gulls, I believe I am undercounting the Thayer's as they are harder to pick out than the Kumlien's. So Amar's 6:1 seems reasonable to me. It's also worth mentioning that here along southern Lake Michigan, though as Amar has mentioned there are confusing individuals that one cannot readily assigned to either taxon, the distribution in appearance is quite bimodal with most individuals easily placed in one of two groups. Sincerely, Geoff Williamson Chicago, Illinois, USA At 06:07 PM 2/4/2012, you wrote: >Hi Amar- > >I was actually under the impression that Kumlien's was as more or just >as likely to be encountered in the western Great Lakes region as >Thayer's, so your ratio of Thayer's to Kumlien's on that end is >surprising and new to me. Geoffrey A. Williamson geoffrey.williamson AT comcast.net Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM> Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 01:10:05 +0000 All: The high proportion of 'glaucoides' Icelands in CA is more likely a reflection of the conservatism of the CBRC on this species. Generally speaking if the bird is not similar to or trending towards a glaucoides in structure and plumage, it's going to get rejected. I know of at least one very experienced gull watcher who regarded Kumlien's as more or less annual in the Sacramento area, for example. Nick -----Original Message----- From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of James Pawlicki Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 4:07 PM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN Hi Amar- I was actually under the impression that Kumlien's was as more or just as likely to be encountered in the western Great Lakes region as Thayer's, so your ratio of Thayer's to Kumlien's on that end is surprising and new to me. As for Thayer's ID over here (again adults), I would say as a similar ID system is in use here with regards to structure, wing-tip coloration, and eye color, but with the addition of mantle shade. By far the most confusing individuals are like the one you have linked below, which seem to be structurally fine for Thayer's, but have pale mantles, reduced dark in the wing-tips, and/or rather pale eyes. I have seen a few of these here in the eastern Great Lakes, but knowing that both the latter features have some variability in west coast Thayer's populations, I wonder if they are indeed "pale" Thayer's. On the contrary, the other difficult birds that I've come across are opposite in regards to structure and plumage/bare parts, as they have have a rather petite structure (ie. not a structurally sound Thayer's) with pale mantles, but very extensive dark/black markings on the wing-tips and a dark eye. As for what Bruce M. brings up about the occurrence of "very pale" Icelands in California, this had me scratching my head for a while as well, wondering why such a high proportion always seemed very pale and spot on for glaucoides, and Bruce's explanation of a unique vagrancy pattern seems fitting. Jim Pawlicki On Sat, Feb 4, 2012 at 5:46 AM, Amar Ayyash wrote: > Jim, your point is well taken and I'm sure this "double standard" exists > mainly for the reason you mentioned; That is, Thayer's treated as a full > species by some as opposed to a subspecies. > > From a southern Lake Michigan perspective, particularly northeastern > Illinois, we record more Thayer's than Kumlien's (maybe a ratio of 6 to > 1). Our identifications are based mainly on structure and wingtip patterns > (the extent and shade of black). Those we call Thayer's usually show > larger bills and larger heads and have the darkest wingtips (negligibly > paler than Herring's primaries). But as you say, some are not safely told > apart, and many of us keep such individuals as question marks. Some > birders here call them "tweeners" and we debate these birds on a somewhat > regular basis. It's not unusual to find a couple on any given day of good > winter gulling. Here's a good example of one photographed in Indiana by > John Cassady: > http://www.jkcassady.com/gallery/icguxthguA.htm > > Perhaps part of my bias, if you'd like to call it that, stems from the > geographical location of Thayer's. To me, it's much more conceiveable that > Thayer's would show up on the western Great Lakes than glaucoides (based > on known breeding grounds and migration routes). I don't doubt for one > second that gulls from Greenland can't find there way to the states (I'd > like to believe LBBGs do :), but the fact that so very few glaucoides are > recorded in St. John's (among the thousands of Kumlien's) is, I think, > noteworthy. > > Amar Ayyash > Frankfort, IL > > > > > On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 21:21:50 -0500, James Pawlicki > wrote: > >>Amar- >> >>I guess part of my argument is fueled by popular thought that seems to >>sway heavily in favor of a higher confidence level in thayeri outside >>the core winter range vs. that of glaucoides. I think many would agree >>that thayeri are occurring in the Great Lakes and parts of E. North >>America with regular frequency (although band/satellite recoveries >>would certainly be nice...), and in the process, the species is >>confidently labeled as such in those parts even *knowing* the extreme >>variability in kumlieni, which can approach, and potentially be >>identical in appearance to thayeri. It would seem that this same >>confidence level is not the case with otherwise pure-looking >>glaucoides in E. North America/Great Lakes, and it is held to a higher >>standard. >> >>The obvious suspicion is that it is a result of thayeri being treated >>as a species, while kumlieni is treated as a subspecies next to >>glaucoides. I say this as I am sure everybody here would generally >>agree that in most cases, one can be more confident in a specific ID >>vs. subspecific ID.  But at the same time, it would be reasonable to >>believe that kumlieni, being an extremely variable taxa showing >>physical traits falling between thayeri and glaucoides, was at one >>time the result of breeding between two distinct taxa known as thayeri >>and glaucoides, therefore forming the cline that Snell described. But >>relating this back to to field ID in parts dominated by kumlieni, I >>don't see the case for the double standard on glaucoides at the >>pale/east end of the spectrum, which on the other hand seems to be >>lacking for thayeri at the dark/western end of the spectrum. >> >> >>Jim Pawlicki >> >>On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Amar_Ayyash wrote: >>> James and all - >>> >>> I was recently talking to a birder from New Jersey who serves on the >>> records committee there, and I was quite impressed by his requirements > for >>> endorsing a probable nominate adult glaucoides. I'm sure records > comittees >>> from differing states/provinces have their own expectations for this >>> taxon, but I would hope all were uncompromising. >>> >>> I don't have any problem with keeping open the possibility of a stray >>> glaucoides (I think it would be imprudent not to), but I also don't > have a >>> problem with leaving them as "not safely distinguishable" unless certain >>> criteria are met. Hence, a "Kumlien's until proven otherwise" attitude >>> should indeed be the message we'd want to send for now. >>> >>> I imagine that discussions like this one can easily influence popular >>> thought among some birders and I think caution needs to be taken. I've >>> found several examples in the Great Lakes region where birding > literature >>> is misguided and often gives the impression that Kumlien's is "the more >>> common" Iceland Gull, leaving folks with the impression that >>> it's "uncommon" to stumble upon a glaucoides, but still within > reasonable >>> reach. One author went as far as saying, "Most Icelands seen in *state's >>> name deleted* are Kumlien's". Interestingly, that state has no > verifiable >>> records of nominate glaucoides. >>> >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> Amar Ayyash >>> Frankfort, IL >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 15:46:45 -0500, James Pawlicki >>> wrote: >>> >>>>All- >>>> >>>>A quick thought I would like to bring up regarding these "glaucoides" >>>>individuals (and adults strictly speaking) in NE N. America and the >>>>Great Lakes region: >>>> >>>>If these individuals showing a full (by full I mean "mini-Glaucous >>>>Gull") suite of glaucoides traits are presumably occurring within the >>>>same colonies and even the same broods as birds showing mixed >>>>light/dark traits (ie. what we currently classify as kumlieni), then >>>>why the rarity of these full suite glaucoides in areas where numerous >>>>kumlieni winter. From an eastern Great Lakes/Niagara River >>>>perspective, we see small numbers of individuals that are full suite >>>>thayeri, many birds that are classified as pale thayeri/dark kumlieni, >>>>large numbers of typical (and variable) kumlieni, small numbers of >>>>pale (but still showing some mixed traits) kumlieni, and very, very >>>>rarely individuals that have an absolutely full suite of glaucoides >>>>traits like the Duluth bird. In my mind I see this rarity in itself as >>>>making a substantial case for vagrancy by glaucoides. >>>> >>>>Apart from the actual genetics involved and dealing only with >>>>populations, the big question in this case is how frequent are >>>>individuals showing a full suite of glaucoides traits in kumlieni >>>>breeding colonies? Are they common, rare, or extremely rare?  Until >>>>that question can be answered with some degree of confidence, I see no >>>>reason why these individuals should be viewed exclusively as "kumlieni >>>>until proven otherwise." >>>> >>>>Jim Pawlicki >>>>Buffalo, NY USA >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 1:49 PM, Shaibal Mitra >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> This pale, petite Iceland Gull is very interesting (and attractive!) >>> but I don't agree with Ron's interpretation of the genetics and taxonomy >>> involved >>>>> >>>>> Taxa are not defined by phenotypic characters--nor even by genetic > ones- >>> -but rather as demographically cohesive groups of populations, whose >>> members can often be RECOGNIZED by characters or sets of characters. >>>>> >>>>> Kumlieni refers to a group of populations of Iceland Gulls breeding in >>> Canada which are believed to be relatively cohesive demographically. > That >>> is, they are believed to be much more likely to exchange dispersing >>> individuals amongst themselves than between themselves and populations >>> breeding in Greenland (or between themselves and populations of Thayer's >>> Gulls). Within any population of kumlieni, there is likely to be >>> considerable variation in wingtip pigmentation, bill size, etc.--even >>> within a brood of siblings whose parents, grandparents, and great >>> grandparents all lived and died as run of the mill kumlieni. Clearly, a >>> lightly pigmented individual of this sort is in no way more RELATED to >>> glaucoides than is its more heavily pigmented sibling, nor is the darker >>> bird somehow related to thayeri. These individuals might be more or less >>> difficult to DISTINGUISH from individuals of those other taxa, but they >>> are kith and kin to each other and to generations of Kumlien's Gulls. >>>>> >>>>> If two very pale, small-billed Kumlien's Gulls happened to pair, and > if >>> one of their offspring happened to closely resemble typical birds from >>> Greenland-breeding populations, this bird would not "be" an example of >>> glaucoides; it would be an example of kumlieni impossible to distinguish >>> (visually) from glaucoides. Ditto for dark Kumlien's Gulls in relation > to >>> Thayer's Gull. >>>>> >>>>> This distinction is not just semantics; it is also conceptually useful >>> for thinking about the broader challenges of taxonomy and > identification. >>> Given the undoubted existence of variation among run of the mill > Canadian- >>> breeding Iceland Gulls, it is perfectly plausible that characters such > as >>> pigmentation might evolve slightly over time within these populations, > via >>> natural selection or genetic drift. This could (and probably does) > happen >>> without the need for any gene flow whatsoever from other taxa (e.g., >>> thayeri or glaucoides). >>>>> >>>>> Identifying glaucoides in North America involves making a case for >>> vagrancy from a population of glaucoides, vs. a more or less unusual >>> variant from a population of kumlieni. Short of band recoveries or >>> multiple genetic markers, this process would begin with rigorously >>> quantifying the frequency of pale, small-billed individuals in Canadian- >>> breeding populations. >>>>> >>>>> Shai Mitra >>>>> Bay Shore, NY >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification >>> [BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] on behalf of Jean Iron >>> [jeaniron AT SYMPATICO.CA] >>>>> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 12:25 PM >>>>> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU >>>>> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN >>>>> >>>>> There is a continuum from darkest thayeri through kumlieni to > glaucoides >>>>> (Snell in Birds of North America (BNA) no. 699, 2002). I've seen many >>>>> individuals that are essentially glaucoides but they have slight >>>>> pigmentation in the primaries. These are by definition kumlieni but to >>> my >>>>> mind are genetically mostly glaucioides. Karl Bardon's bird in the > link >>>>> below shows no evidence of kumlieni. It falls inside the line for >>> nominate >>>>> glaucoides and meets the criteria for a winter adult by its > combination >>> of >>>>> immaculate primary tips, small size, small bill, very pale Glaucous- > like >>>>> mantle, clear yellow eyes, and pale spotting on the head and nape. > This >>> bird >>>>> is as certain as we can be in identifying most subspecies in the > field. >>>>> >>>>> See 8 photos under Iceland Gull, adult #one. Karl, please put a direct >>> link >>>>> to these birds. Mine doesn't always work. >>>>> www.pbase.com/karlbardon/duluthsuperior_gulls_20112012 >>>>> >>>>> There are solid records of nominate glaucoides in Ontario including a >>>>> specimen of a winter adult from Ottawa. >>>>> http://www.jeaniron.ca/2010/icelandgullRF.pdf >>>>> >>>>> I recommend that everyone read BNA 699 for the best information (peer >>>>> reviewed) available about the Iceland and Thayer's Gull complex. The > BNA >>>>> series is available online from Cornell for a cost and worth every >>> penny: >>>>> http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/bna >>>>> >>>>> Ron Pittaway, >>>>> Minden, Ontario >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> Change is in the Air - Smoking in Designated Areas Only in >>> effect. >>>>> Tobacco-Free Campus as of July 1, 2012. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa? >>> SUBED1=birdwg01 >>>>> >>>>> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html >>>> >>>> >>>>Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa? >>> SUBED1=birdwg01 >>>> >>>>Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html >>>>======================================================================== >>> >> >> >>Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa? > SUBED1=birdwg01 >> >>Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html >>======================================================================== > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Dark Thayer's Gulls (in response to Kevin McGowan) From: James Pawlicki <jmpawli10 AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 19:42:05 -0500 I think Kevin's first statement brings up a good point for asking those on the west coat encountering sizable numbers of wintering Thayer's and Herring Gulls, "how often do you come across individuals that are ambiguous between the two?" Frequently, rarely, almost never? My guess is that it is rare, but if it happens with any frequency then perhaps in the Great Lakes we need to be more cautious in separating Herring vs. Thayer's. As for band recoveries of Herring Gulls in upstate New York, on 2 March 2010 I observed a 4th-cycle Herring Gull on the south shore of Lake Ontario that was banded as a chick "too young to fly" on Lake Superior, near Brimley, Michigan on 7 June 2005. The other recovery was of a 1st-cycle that I observed on the south shore of Lake Erie on 27 March 2011 that was again banded as a chick "too young to fly" E. of Chambers Island, Wisconsin (but on Lake Michigan) in 2010. After looking these locations up on maps, it is interesting to note that the straight line distance between the nesting sites was "only" 160 miles apart, while the recovery locations were straight-line 60 miles apart and both in the month of March. On another note it was also interesting to see that the plumage appearance of both individuals was indeed respective of their actual age at the time. Both recoveries obviously provide evidence that Herring Gulls breeding in the Great Lakes remain, or at the very least, continue to return to the lakes, the latter of which has to be taken into consideration, since by early March, spring Herring Gull movements/migration are getting into full swing in upstate New York. Jim Pawlicki On Sat, Feb 4, 2012 at 6:53 PM, Kevin J. McGowan wrote: > I have said for years that, at least for upstate New York, if a “Thayer’s” > Gull is safely separable from Iceland, then it isn’t from Herring, and vice > versa. > > > > I’m fascinated by Herring Gulls, but I just cannot make sense of them. > Honestly, I don’t have the slightest idea what you guys mean when you say > things like, “Normally first year Herrings have molted their scapulars into > feathers that have anchor…. blah, blah, blah.”  I have no sense of what is > “normal.” > > > > I spent about 3 hours today looking at somewhere between 200-300+ individual > Herring Gulls from about 50-100 feet away, and I am willing to bet that > virtually all of them, at all ages, could be individually identified by > their markings.  (Which is decidedly NOT true for the local Ring-billed and > Great Black-backed gulls.)  I have no idea what a “normal” Herring Gull is. > All I know is that I regularly see a range of variation in every character I > can think of (except, perhaps leg color and mantle shade of adults), and  I > think I could find photos of any combination you name.  I have to check my > photos, but I even saw an immature today that I think had SPOTS at the base > of its mantle feathers and scapulars. > > > > From where I bird, any variation in Kumlien’s Gulls is peanuts compared to > American Herrings.  Perhaps where I am is a factor.  If Karl Bardon finds > only 17% of Herrings in Minnesota have a mirror on P9, and Bruce Mactavish > has approximately 98% that do in Newfoundland, my tally of 59% in central > New York suggests that I’m getting a much more mixed view than either of > them. > > > > I could use a lot more banding data!  So far we’ve only had three banded > individuals identified here: a hatch-year bird from Wisconsin, a bird from > the St. Lawrence River seen as a yearling and a 2-year-old, and a third that > I can’t match yet. > > > > What do you have where you are? > > > > Kevin > > > > Kevin J. McGowan > > Ithaca, NY > > > > > > From: Nick Komar [mailto:quetzal65 AT comcast.net] > Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 11:17 AM > To: Kevin J. McGowan; BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU > Subject: Dark Thayer's Gulls (in response to Kevin McGowan) > > > > Hi Kevin, > > > > I think there is a dark end of the spectrum for thayeri that is commonly > overlooked and passed off as Herring Gull. I have a photo gallery of 10 > first-cycle gulls from November that all appear to be Thayer's Gulls, > although superficially half were dark enough on the tertials and primaries > to be Herring Gull. The gallery can be viewed at > http://www.pbase.com/quetzal/horsetooth11112011. > > > > And for adults, here in Colorado I have seen a few probable THGU with dark > wingtips beyond what I expected for variation in thayeri. It occurred to me > that these could be pale Vega Gulls, possibly of the Siberian subspecies > birulai. Ujihara wrote me about these, suspecting dark THGU. Photos at: > > http://www.pbase.com/quetzal/mysterygullo > > http://www.pbase.com/quetzal/mysterygullt > > > > The attitude that "nobody cares" about Herring Gulls is pervasive, and a > good reason why our collective understanding of variation in American > Herring Gull is less advanced than it should be, given their abundance on > this continent. I am glad to see the attention this topic is getting of late > on this list serve. > > > > Nick Komar > > Fort Collins CO > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Kevin J. McGowan > > Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 7:59 AM > > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU > > Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN > > > > **** > > James Pawlicki > > Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 9:22 PM > > writes > > ... > > I don't see the case for the double standard on glaucoides at the > > pale/east end of the spectrum, which on the other hand seems to be > > lacking for thayeri at the dark/western end of the spectrum. > > > > > > > > > > That's because the darker end is Herring Gull, and nobody notices or cares. > > > > I see a large variation in "Herring" Gulls at all ages, with many hinting at > Thayer's characteristics.  The range of black/brownish in primaries of > first-year birds is quite striking, even before significant wear lightens > them up even more. > > > > It seems the Northeastern Herring adults are paler than the Great Lakes > ones; how about the first-year birds? > > > > Kevin > > > > Kevin J. McGowan > > Ithaca, NY > > > > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN From: James Pawlicki <jmpawli10 AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 19:07:21 -0500 Hi Amar- I was actually under the impression that Kumlien's was as more or just as likely to be encountered in the western Great Lakes region as Thayer's, so your ratio of Thayer's to Kumlien's on that end is surprising and new to me. As for Thayer's ID over here (again adults), I would say as a similar ID system is in use here with regards to structure, wing-tip coloration, and eye color, but with the addition of mantle shade. By far the most confusing individuals are like the one you have linked below, which seem to be structurally fine for Thayer's, but have pale mantles, reduced dark in the wing-tips, and/or rather pale eyes. I have seen a few of these here in the eastern Great Lakes, but knowing that both the latter features have some variability in west coast Thayer's populations, I wonder if they are indeed "pale" Thayer's. On the contrary, the other difficult birds that I've come across are opposite in regards to structure and plumage/bare parts, as they have have a rather petite structure (ie. not a structurally sound Thayer's) with pale mantles, but very extensive dark/black markings on the wing-tips and a dark eye. As for what Bruce M. brings up about the occurrence of "very pale" Icelands in California, this had me scratching my head for a while as well, wondering why such a high proportion always seemed very pale and spot on for glaucoides, and Bruce's explanation of a unique vagrancy pattern seems fitting. Jim Pawlicki On Sat, Feb 4, 2012 at 5:46 AM, Amar Ayyash wrote: > Jim, your point is well taken and I'm sure this "double standard" exists > mainly for the reason you mentioned; That is, Thayer's treated as a full > species by some as opposed to a subspecies. > > From a southern Lake Michigan perspective, particularly northeastern > Illinois, we record more Thayer's than Kumlien's (maybe a ratio of 6 to > 1). Our identifications are based mainly on structure and wingtip patterns > (the extent and shade of black). Those we call Thayer's usually show > larger bills and larger heads and have the darkest wingtips (negligibly > paler than Herring's primaries). But as you say, some are not safely told > apart, and many of us keep such individuals as question marks. Some > birders here call them "tweeners" and we debate these birds on a somewhat > regular basis. It's not unusual to find a couple on any given day of good > winter gulling. Here's a good example of one photographed in Indiana by > John Cassady: > http://www.jkcassady.com/gallery/icguxthguA.htm > > Perhaps part of my bias, if you'd like to call it that, stems from the > geographical location of Thayer's. To me, it's much more conceiveable that > Thayer's would show up on the western Great Lakes than glaucoides (based > on known breeding grounds and migration routes). I don't doubt for one > second that gulls from Greenland can't find there way to the states (I'd > like to believe LBBGs do :), but the fact that so very few glaucoides are > recorded in St. John's (among the thousands of Kumlien's) is, I think, > noteworthy. > > Amar Ayyash > Frankfort, IL > > > > > On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 21:21:50 -0500, James Pawlicki > wrote: > >>Amar- >> >>I guess part of my argument is fueled by popular thought that seems to >>sway heavily in favor of a higher confidence level in thayeri outside >>the core winter range vs. that of glaucoides. I think many would agree >>that thayeri are occurring in the Great Lakes and parts of E. North >>America with regular frequency (although band/satellite recoveries >>would certainly be nice...), and in the process, the species is >>confidently labeled as such in those parts even *knowing* the extreme >>variability in kumlieni, which can approach, and potentially be >>identical in appearance to thayeri. It would seem that this same >>confidence level is not the case with otherwise pure-looking >>glaucoides in E. North America/Great Lakes, and it is held to a higher >>standard. >> >>The obvious suspicion is that it is a result of thayeri being treated >>as a species, while kumlieni is treated as a subspecies next to >>glaucoides. I say this as I am sure everybody here would generally >>agree that in most cases, one can be more confident in a specific ID >>vs. subspecific ID.  But at the same time, it would be reasonable to >>believe that kumlieni, being an extremely variable taxa showing >>physical traits falling between thayeri and glaucoides, was at one >>time the result of breeding between two distinct taxa known as thayeri >>and glaucoides, therefore forming the cline that Snell described. But >>relating this back to to field ID in parts dominated by kumlieni, I >>don’t see the case for the double standard on glaucoides at the >>pale/east end of the spectrum, which on the other hand seems to be >>lacking for thayeri at the dark/western end of the spectrum. >> >> >>Jim Pawlicki >> >>On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Amar_Ayyash wrote: >>> James and all - >>> >>> I was recently talking to a birder from New Jersey who serves on the >>> records committee there, and I was quite impressed by his requirements > for >>> endorsing a probable nominate adult glaucoides. I'm sure records > comittees >>> from differing states/provinces have their own expectations for this >>> taxon, but I would hope all were uncompromising. >>> >>> I don't have any problem with keeping open the possibility of a stray >>> glaucoides (I think it would be imprudent not to), but I also don't > have a >>> problem with leaving them as "not safely distinguishable" unless certain >>> criteria are met. Hence, a "Kumlien's until proven otherwise" attitude >>> should indeed be the message we'd want to send for now. >>> >>> I imagine that discussions like this one can easily influence popular >>> thought among some birders and I think caution needs to be taken. I've >>> found several examples in the Great Lakes region where birding > literature >>> is misguided and often gives the impression that Kumlien's is "the more >>> common" Iceland Gull, leaving folks with the impression that >>> it's "uncommon" to stumble upon a glaucoides, but still within > reasonable >>> reach. One author went as far as saying, "Most Icelands seen in *state's >>> name deleted* are Kumlien's". Interestingly, that state has no > verifiable >>> records of nominate glaucoides. >>> >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> Amar Ayyash >>> Frankfort, IL >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 15:46:45 -0500, James Pawlicki >>> wrote: >>> >>>>All- >>>> >>>>A quick thought I would like to bring up regarding these “glaucoides” >>>>individuals (and adults strictly speaking) in NE N. America and the >>>>Great Lakes region: >>>> >>>>If these individuals showing a full (by full I mean “mini-Glaucous >>>>Gull”) suite of glaucoides traits are presumably occurring within the >>>>same colonies and even the same broods as birds showing mixed >>>>light/dark traits (ie. what we currently classify as kumlieni), then >>>>why the rarity of these full suite glaucoides in areas where numerous >>>>kumlieni winter. From an eastern Great Lakes/Niagara River >>>>perspective, we see small numbers of individuals that are full suite >>>>thayeri, many birds that are classified as pale thayeri/dark kumlieni, >>>>large numbers of typical (and variable) kumlieni, small numbers of >>>>pale (but still showing some mixed traits) kumlieni, and very, very >>>>rarely individuals that have an absolutely full suite of glaucoides >>>>traits like the Duluth bird. In my mind I see this rarity in itself as >>>>making a substantial case for vagrancy by glaucoides. >>>> >>>>Apart from the actual genetics involved and dealing only with >>>>populations, the big question in this case is how frequent are >>>>individuals showing a full suite of glaucoides traits in kumlieni >>>>breeding colonies? Are they common, rare, or extremely rare?  Until >>>>that question can be answered with some degree of confidence, I see no >>>>reason why these individuals should be viewed exclusively as “kumlieni >>>>until proven otherwise.” >>>> >>>>Jim Pawlicki >>>>Buffalo, NY USA >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 1:49 PM, Shaibal Mitra >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> This pale, petite Iceland Gull is very interesting (and attractive!) >>> but I don't agree with Ron's interpretation of the genetics and taxonomy >>> involved >>>>> >>>>> Taxa are not defined by phenotypic characters--nor even by genetic > ones- >>> -but rather as demographically cohesive groups of populations, whose >>> members can often be RECOGNIZED by characters or sets of characters. >>>>> >>>>> Kumlieni refers to a group of populations of Iceland Gulls breeding in >>> Canada which are believed to be relatively cohesive demographically. > That >>> is, they are believed to be much more likely to exchange dispersing >>> individuals amongst themselves than between themselves and populations >>> breeding in Greenland (or between themselves and populations of Thayer's >>> Gulls). Within any population of kumlieni, there is likely to be >>> considerable variation in wingtip pigmentation, bill size, etc.--even >>> within a brood of siblings whose parents, grandparents, and great >>> grandparents all lived and died as run of the mill kumlieni. Clearly, a >>> lightly pigmented individual of this sort is in no way more RELATED to >>> glaucoides than is its more heavily pigmented sibling, nor is the darker >>> bird somehow related to thayeri. These individuals might be more or less >>> difficult to DISTINGUISH from individuals of those other taxa, but they >>> are kith and kin to each other and to generations of Kumlien's Gulls. >>>>> >>>>> If two very pale, small-billed Kumlien's Gulls happened to pair, and > if >>> one of their offspring happened to closely resemble typical birds from >>> Greenland-breeding populations, this bird would not "be" an example of >>> glaucoides; it would be an example of kumlieni impossible to distinguish >>> (visually) from glaucoides. Ditto for dark Kumlien's Gulls in relation > to >>> Thayer's Gull. >>>>> >>>>> This distinction is not just semantics; it is also conceptually useful >>> for thinking about the broader challenges of taxonomy and > identification. >>> Given the undoubted existence of variation among run of the mill > Canadian- >>> breeding Iceland Gulls, it is perfectly plausible that characters such > as >>> pigmentation might evolve slightly over time within these populations, > via >>> natural selection or genetic drift. This could (and probably does) > happen >>> without the need for any gene flow whatsoever from other taxa (e.g., >>> thayeri or glaucoides). >>>>> >>>>> Identifying glaucoides in North America involves making a case for >>> vagrancy from a population of glaucoides, vs. a more or less unusual >>> variant from a population of kumlieni. Short of band recoveries or >>> multiple genetic markers, this process would begin with rigorously >>> quantifying the frequency of pale, small-billed individuals in Canadian- >>> breeding populations. >>>>> >>>>> Shai Mitra >>>>> Bay Shore, NY >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification >>> [BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] on behalf of Jean Iron >>> [jeaniron AT SYMPATICO.CA] >>>>> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 12:25 PM >>>>> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU >>>>> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN >>>>> >>>>> There is a continuum from darkest thayeri through kumlieni to > glaucoides >>>>> (Snell in Birds of North America (BNA) no. 699, 2002). I've seen many >>>>> individuals that are essentially glaucoides but they have slight >>>>> pigmentation in the primaries. These are by definition kumlieni but to >>> my >>>>> mind are genetically mostly glaucioides. Karl Bardon's bird in the > link >>>>> below shows no evidence of kumlieni. It falls inside the line for >>> nominate >>>>> glaucoides and meets the criteria for a winter adult by its > combination >>> of >>>>> immaculate primary tips, small size, small bill, very pale Glaucous- > like >>>>> mantle, clear yellow eyes, and pale spotting on the head and nape. > This >>> bird >>>>> is as certain as we can be in identifying most subspecies in the > field. >>>>> >>>>> See 8 photos under Iceland Gull, adult #one. Karl, please put a direct >>> link >>>>> to these birds. Mine doesn't always work. >>>>> www.pbase.com/karlbardon/duluthsuperior_gulls_20112012 >>>>> >>>>> There are solid records of nominate glaucoides in Ontario including a >>>>> specimen of a winter adult from Ottawa. >>>>> http://www.jeaniron.ca/2010/icelandgullRF.pdf >>>>> >>>>> I recommend that everyone read BNA 699 for the best information (peer >>>>> reviewed) available about the Iceland and Thayer's Gull complex. The > BNA >>>>> series is available online from Cornell for a cost and worth every >>> penny: >>>>> http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/bna >>>>> >>>>> Ron Pittaway, >>>>> Minden, Ontario >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> Change is in the Air - Smoking in Designated Areas Only in >>> effect. >>>>> Tobacco-Free Campus as of July 1, 2012. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa? >>> SUBED1=birdwg01 >>>>> >>>>> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html >>>> >>>> >>>>Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa? >>> SUBED1=birdwg01 >>>> >>>>Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html >>>>======================================================================== >>> >> >> >>Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa? > SUBED1=birdwg01 >> >>Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html >>======================================================================== > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Dark Thayer's Gulls (in response to Kevin McGowan) From: "Kevin J. McGowan" <kjm2 AT CORNELL.EDU> Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 23:53:38 +0000 I have said for years that, at least for upstate New York, if a "Thayer's" Gull is safely separable from Iceland, then it isn't from Herring, and vice versa. I'm fascinated by Herring Gulls, but I just cannot make sense of them. Honestly, I don't have the slightest idea what you guys mean when you say things like, "Normally first year Herrings have molted their scapulars into feathers that have anchor.... blah, blah, blah." I have no sense of what is "normal." I spent about 3 hours today looking at somewhere between 200-300+ individual Herring Gulls from about 50-100 feet away, and I am willing to bet that virtually all of them, at all ages, could be individually identified by their markings. (Which is decidedly NOT true for the local Ring-billed and Great Black-backed gulls.) I have no idea what a "normal" Herring Gull is. All I know is that I regularly see a range of variation in every character I can think of (except, perhaps leg color and mantle shade of adults), and I think I could find photos of any combination you name. I have to check my photos, but I even saw an immature today that I think had SPOTS at the base of its mantle feathers and scapulars. From where I bird, any variation in Kumlien's Gulls is peanuts compared to American Herrings. Perhaps where I am is a factor. If Karl Bardon finds only 17% of Herrings in Minnesota have a mirror on P9, and Bruce Mactavish has approximately 98% that do in Newfoundland, my tally of 59% in central New York suggests that I'm getting a much more mixed view than either of them. I could use a lot more banding data! So far we've only had three banded individuals identified here: a hatch-year bird from Wisconsin, a bird from the St. Lawrence River seen as a yearling and a 2-year-old, and a third that I can't match yet. What do you have where you are? Kevin Kevin J. McGowan Ithaca, NY From: Nick Komar [mailto:quetzal65 AT comcast.net] Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 11:17 AM To: Kevin J. McGowan; BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Dark Thayer's Gulls (in response to Kevin McGowan) Hi Kevin, I think there is a dark end of the spectrum for thayeri that is commonly overlooked and passed off as Herring Gull. I have a photo gallery of 10 first-cycle gulls from November that all appear to be Thayer's Gulls, although superficially half were dark enough on the tertials and primaries to be Herring Gull. The gallery can be viewed at http://www.pbase.com/quetzal/horsetooth11112011. And for adults, here in Colorado I have seen a few probable THGU with dark wingtips beyond what I expected for variation in thayeri. It occurred to me that these could be pale Vega Gulls, possibly of the Siberian subspecies birulai. Ujihara wrote me about these, suspecting dark THGU. Photos at: http://www.pbase.com/quetzal/mysterygullo http://www.pbase.com/quetzal/mysterygullt The attitude that "nobody cares" about Herring Gulls is pervasive, and a good reason why our collective understanding of variation in American Herring Gull is less advanced than it should be, given their abundance on this continent. I am glad to see the attention this topic is getting of late on this list serve. Nick Komar Fort Collins CO -----Original Message----- From: Kevin J. McGowan Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 7:59 AM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN **** James Pawlicki Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 9:22 PM writes ... I don't see the case for the double standard on glaucoides at the pale/east end of the spectrum, which on the other hand seems to be lacking for thayeri at the dark/western end of the spectrum. That's because the darker end is Herring Gull, and nobody notices or cares. I see a large variation in "Herring" Gulls at all ages, with many hinting at Thayer's characteristics. The range of black/brownish in primaries of first-year birds is quite striking, even before significant wear lightens them up even more. It seems the Northeastern Herring adults are paler than the Great Lakes ones; how about the first-year birds? Kevin Kevin J. McGowan Ithaca, NY Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN From: Louis Bevier <lrbevier AT COLBY.EDU> Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 17:48:59 -0500 On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 12:25 PM, Jean Iron wrote: > There is a continuum from darkest thayeri through kumlieni to glaucoides > (Snell in Birds of North America (BNA) no. 699, 2002). I think this statement needs to be qualified. Back before I lost touch with this all, I worked on gulls a lot. I had a long conversation and several long written exchanges with Richard Snell while I worked as an editor for his BNA account. One thing that I have not seen mentioned is his analysis of primary patterns and mantle coloration present in that account. My interpretation of Snell's data is that there are marked and concordant steps in several characters across the range boundaries from glaucoides to kumlieni and from kumlieni to thayeri. I know many don't have access to the BNA account; so I'll summarize some of his data here. Primary melanism scores and mantle coloration are presented in Table 1: localities 1-4 (thayeri breeding range from Banks I. east to Pelly Bay and Frozen Strait) mean primary tip scores 3.6, 3.4, 3.5, 3.5; localities 5-6 (kumlieni breeding sites from Cumberland Sound, Cape Dorset, and Home Bay in s. and e. Baffin I.) mean scores 1.6, 1.8; locality 7 (glaucoides from sw. and e. Greenland) mean score 0.2. The sample sizes are good, ranging from 21 to 80 individuals within sites. The variation is similar in each sample, except the e. Baffin I. kumlieni show somewhat greater variation. There is broad overlap in the range of these scores. The breaks in mean scores occur at the same points for melanism scores in p10 and in mantle shade (based on Kodak gray scale). These differences might not be as significant as they seem. It is difficult to know what qualitative characters mean, i.e. each individual's character is classified into a group based on multiple varying features, and these may form one big bell curve or lots of little ones for each character group. We don't know. Because age and sex were not included in the analysis, better resolution might be possible if they were (age would be difficult, of course, unless a banded study population existed at each site). Improved quantitative characters might allow better understanding of variation too, e.g. spectrophotometric measurements of mantle color or digital measurement of total dark and light areas in primary tips might reveal patterns masked by lumping variables into set, qualitative groups. I may have missed some more recent treatment of this. Apologies if that is so. Snell's BNA account does present a useful figure showing the continuum of variation in wingtip patterns, all based on actual specimens. But as pointed out by others, we know these characters overlap, and it is easy to find individuals that fill in the "continuum." The question is where are those birds from and how are they interacting on the breeding grounds. Ironic given this discussion, is the lead photograph for the BNA account (online) is an apparent nominate glaucoides from San Diego, California (it was my life bird!). It does seem odd that glaucoides was the first Iceland to be accepted for California, but Bruce's explanation helps make some sense of it. Louis Bevier Fairfield, Maine Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: glaucoides in California? From: dave brown <dave.browne AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 15:15:27 -0330 This is slightly off topic but,I'm just wondering if you guys are seeing any variation in mantle shade among adult Thayer's Gulls on the west coast? Are adults suspected of possibly being Kumlien's noticeably paler mantled than surrounding THGU? Kumliens are marginally paler in the mantle than our smithsonianus,so you would think it would appear paler among a group of THGU, which are marginally darker than smithsonianus? Looking at the photos. I agree with everything Bruce has to say about this bird. Dave Brown St.John's, Newfoundland Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: glaucoides in California? From: Martin Renner <mrenner AT MUN.CA> Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 09:01:08 -0900 A caveat that has not yet been mentioned is variation in glaucoides. While we know that kumlieni is extremely variable, we have little information on the actual variability of glaucoides. Especially, there seems to be little quantitative information from the breeding grounds. It would seem odd if glaucoides is really the only form in this group that does not heavily overlap with the taxonomic neighbor. The main implication would be identifying kumlieni within the normal range of glaucoides would become just as difficult as the already difficult/impossible task of identifying glaucoides on this side of the Atlantic. Incidentally, there's a major invasion of Iceland Gulls into central Europe right now, including many suspected kumlieni. Martin Renner Homer, Alaska On 4 Feb 2012, at 03:02 , Bruce Mactavish wrote: > The wing spread shots show a darker brown leading edge to the outer most > five primaries (P10-P6). This would be a sign of Kumlien's. Glaucoides > should show evenly pale outer primaries with little or no contrast between > outer and inner webs. However, in late winter/early spring in > Newfoundland many 1st winter Kumlien's lose the markings in the outer five > primaries due to fading. The fading begins now and by April many (most?) > 1st winter Kumlien's show plain unmarked outer primaries. > > Being sure about the identity of a 1st winter glaucoides in late winter is > probably impossible, if ever possible at any time. Meanwhile the majority > Kumlien's are easily identifiable during the first half of winter at least > but become increasing difficult in late winter and early spring when many > lost all outer primary markings. > > > Bruce Mactavish > St. John's, Newfoundland > This electronic communication is governed by the terms and conditions at http://www.mun.ca/cc/policies/electronic_communications_disclaimer_2011.php Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Dark Thayer's Gulls (in response to Kevin McGowan) From: Nick Komar <quetzal65 AT COMCAST.NET> Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 09:17:04 -0700 Hi Kevin, I think there is a dark end of the spectrum for thayeri that is commonly overlooked and passed off as Herring Gull. I have a photo gallery of 10 first-cycle gulls from November that all appear to be Thayer's Gulls, although superficially half were dark enough on the tertials and primaries to be Herring Gull. The gallery can be viewed at http://www.pbase.com/quetzal/horsetooth11112011. And for adults, here in Colorado I have seen a few probable THGU with dark wingtips beyond what I expected for variation in thayeri. It occurred to me that these could be pale Vega Gulls, possibly of the Siberian subspecies birulai. Ujihara wrote me about these, suspecting dark THGU. Photos at: http://www.pbase.com/quetzal/mysterygullo http://www.pbase.com/quetzal/mysterygullt The attitude that "nobody cares" about Herring Gulls is pervasive, and a good reason why our collective understanding of variation in American Herring Gull is less advanced than it should be, given their abundance on this continent. I am glad to see the attention this topic is getting of late on this list serve. Nick Komar Fort Collins CO -----Original Message----- From: Kevin J. McGowan Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 7:59 AM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN **** James Pawlicki Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 9:22 PM writes ... I don't see the case for the double standard on glaucoides at the pale/east end of the spectrum, which on the other hand seems to be lacking for thayeri at the dark/western end of the spectrum. That's because the darker end is Herring Gull, and nobody notices or cares. I see a large variation in "Herring" Gulls at all ages, with many hinting at Thayer's characteristics. The range of black/brownish in primaries of first-year birds is quite striking, even before significant wear lightens them up even more. It seems the Northeastern Herring adults are paler than the Great Lakes ones; how about the first-year birds? Kevin Kevin J. McGowan Ithaca, NY Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN From: "Kevin J. McGowan" <kjm2 AT CORNELL.EDU> Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 14:59:52 +0000 **** James Pawlicki Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 9:22 PM writes ... I don't see the case for the double standard on glaucoides at the pale/east end of the spectrum, which on the other hand seems to be lacking for thayeri at the dark/western end of the spectrum. That's because the darker end is Herring Gull, and nobody notices or cares. I see a large variation in "Herring" Gulls at all ages, with many hinting at Thayer's characteristics. The range of black/brownish in primaries of first-year birds is quite striking, even before significant wear lightens them up even more. It seems the Northeastern Herring adults are paler than the Great Lakes ones; how about the first-year birds? Kevin Kevin J. McGowan Ithaca, NY Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN From: Bruce Mactavish <bruce.mactavish1 AT NF.SYMPATICO.CA> Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 09:22:45 -0330 Interesting, and surprising that the white winged tip adult Iceland Gull photographed at Duluth by Karl Bardon and now one by Chuck Carlson at Fort Peck, MT are not being embraced as glaucoides Iceland Gulls. I agree the difference between the palest Kumlien's with a thin gray line along the shaft of P10 and one gull without is hardly grounds to separate two subspecies, but that is another story. This email is more about the likelihood of a glaucoides Iceland Gull appearing in western North America which Amar touched upon. Glaucoides breed in Greenland and apparently most of them over winter in the permanently open water coastline of southern Greenland. A good number also spill over to Iceland in winter but generally glaucoides is rare outside of Greenland and Iceland. The large expanse of open water between Greenland and North America may be enough of a barrier to keep most of the glaucoides on the Greenland side of the Davis Strait which would help explain the relative scarcity of the bird in Newfoundland. Both Kumlien's and Thayer's breed in places that totally freeze over in the winter. They have to migrate away from breeding grounds. The main wintering grounds for Kumlien's is the Gulf of St. Lawrence and eastern & southern Newfoundland. It is an abundant species in these areas. It does not winter on Labrador coast or even northern Newfoundland. There is a possibility that Kumlien's winter at sea on the outer edge of the pack ice off northern Newfoundland and Labrador but I doubt that many do this. Thayer's Gulls as we know winter mainly on the Pacific coast of North America. The breeding range or Thayer's and glaucoides almost meet in NW Greenland. Part of the breeding range of glaucoides in west Greenland is actually north of all Kumlien's. It wouldn't be too crazy to think the odd glaucoides wouldn't get mixed in with the nearby Thayer's Gulls and migrate SW with them to western North America. Over the years a number of glacuoides-like looking adults from the west coast have been sent to me for identification. This was my little explanation for these birds occurring in the west. Bruce Mactavish St. John's, Newfoundland. -----Original Message----- From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Amar Ayyash Sent: February-04-12 7:17 AM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN Jim, your point is well taken and I'm sure this "double standard" exists mainly for the reason you mentioned; That is, Thayer's treated as a full species by some as opposed to a subspecies. From a southern Lake Michigan perspective, particularly northeastern Illinois, we record more Thayer's than Kumlien's (maybe a ratio of 6 to 1). Our identifications are based mainly on structure and wingtip patterns (the extent and shade of black). Those we call Thayer's usually show larger bills and larger heads and have the darkest wingtips (negligibly paler than Herring's primaries). But as you say, some are not safely told apart, and many of us keep such individuals as question marks. Some birders here call them "tweeners" and we debate these birds on a somewhat regular basis. It's not unusual to find a couple on any given day of good winter gulling. Here's a good example of one photographed in Indiana by John Cassady: http://www.jkcassady.com/gallery/icguxthguA.htm Perhaps part of my bias, if you'd like to call it that, stems from the geographical location of Thayer's. To me, it's much more conceiveable that Thayer's would show up on the western Great Lakes than glaucoides (based on known breeding grounds and migration routes). I don't doubt for one second that gulls from Greenland can't find there way to the states (I'd like to believe LBBGs do :), but the fact that so very few glaucoides are recorded in St. John's (among the thousands of Kumlien's) is, I think, noteworthy. Amar Ayyash Frankfort, IL On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 21:21:50 -0500, James Pawlicki wrote: >Amar- > >I guess part of my argument is fueled by popular thought that seems to >sway heavily in favor of a higher confidence level in thayeri outside >the core winter range vs. that of glaucoides. I think many would agree >that thayeri are occurring in the Great Lakes and parts of E. North >America with regular frequency (although band/satellite recoveries >would certainly be nice...), and in the process, the species is >confidently labeled as such in those parts even *knowing* the extreme >variability in kumlieni, which can approach, and potentially be >identical in appearance to thayeri. It would seem that this same >confidence level is not the case with otherwise pure-looking glaucoides >in E. North America/Great Lakes, and it is held to a higher standard. > >The obvious suspicion is that it is a result of thayeri being treated >as a species, while kumlieni is treated as a subspecies next to >glaucoides. I say this as I am sure everybody here would generally >agree that in most cases, one can be more confident in a specific ID >vs. subspecific ID. But at the same time, it would be reasonable to >believe that kumlieni, being an extremely variable taxa showing >physical traits falling between thayeri and glaucoides, was at one time >the result of breeding between two distinct taxa known as thayeri and >glaucoides, therefore forming the cline that Snell described. But >relating this back to to field ID in parts dominated by kumlieni, I >dont see the case for the double standard on glaucoides at the >pale/east end of the spectrum, which on the other hand seems to be >lacking for thayeri at the dark/western end of the spectrum. > > >Jim Pawlicki > >On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Amar_Ayyash wrote: >> James and all - >> >> I was recently talking to a birder from New Jersey who serves on the >> records committee there, and I was quite impressed by his >> requirements for >> endorsing a probable nominate adult glaucoides. I'm sure records comittees >> from differing states/provinces have their own expectations for this >> taxon, but I would hope all were uncompromising. >> >> I don't have any problem with keeping open the possibility of a stray >> glaucoides (I think it would be imprudent not to), but I also don't have a >> problem with leaving them as "not safely distinguishable" unless >> certain criteria are met. Hence, a "Kumlien's until proven otherwise" >> attitude should indeed be the message we'd want to send for now. >> >> I imagine that discussions like this one can easily influence popular >> thought among some birders and I think caution needs to be taken. >> I've found several examples in the Great Lakes region where birding literature >> is misguided and often gives the impression that Kumlien's is "the >> more common" Iceland Gull, leaving folks with the impression that >> it's "uncommon" to stumble upon a glaucoides, but still within reasonable >> reach. One author went as far as saying, "Most Icelands seen in >> *state's name deleted* are Kumlien's". Interestingly, that state has >> no verifiable >> records of nominate glaucoides. >> >> >> Kind regards, >> Amar Ayyash >> Frankfort, IL >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 15:46:45 -0500, James Pawlicki >> >> wrote: >> >>>All- >>> >>>A quick thought I would like to bring up regarding these glaucoides >>>individuals (and adults strictly speaking) in NE N. America and the >>>Great Lakes region: >>> >>>If these individuals showing a full (by full I mean mini-Glaucous >>>Gull) suite of glaucoides traits are presumably occurring within the >>>same colonies and even the same broods as birds showing mixed >>>light/dark traits (ie. what we currently classify as kumlieni), then >>>why the rarity of these full suite glaucoides in areas where numerous >>>kumlieni winter. From an eastern Great Lakes/Niagara River >>>perspective, we see small numbers of individuals that are full suite >>>thayeri, many birds that are classified as pale thayeri/dark >>>kumlieni, large numbers of typical (and variable) kumlieni, small >>>numbers of pale (but still showing some mixed traits) kumlieni, and >>>very, very rarely individuals that have an absolutely full suite of >>>glaucoides traits like the Duluth bird. In my mind I see this rarity >>>in itself as making a substantial case for vagrancy by glaucoides. >>> >>>Apart from the actual genetics involved and dealing only with >>>populations, the big question in this case is how frequent are >>>individuals showing a full suite of glaucoides traits in kumlieni >>>breeding colonies? Are they common, rare, or extremely rare? Until >>>that question can be answered with some degree of confidence, I see >>>no reason why these individuals should be viewed exclusively as >>>kumlieni until proven otherwise. >>> >>>Jim Pawlicki >>>Buffalo, NY USA >>> >>> >>> >>>On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 1:49 PM, Shaibal Mitra >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> This pale, petite Iceland Gull is very interesting (and >>>> attractive!) >> but I don't agree with Ron's interpretation of the genetics and >> taxonomy involved >>>> >>>> Taxa are not defined by phenotypic characters--nor even by genetic ones- >> -but rather as demographically cohesive groups of populations, whose >> members can often be RECOGNIZED by characters or sets of characters. >>>> >>>> Kumlieni refers to a group of populations of Iceland Gulls breeding >>>> in >> Canada which are believed to be relatively cohesive demographically. That >> is, they are believed to be much more likely to exchange dispersing >> individuals amongst themselves than between themselves and >> populations breeding in Greenland (or between themselves and >> populations of Thayer's Gulls). Within any population of kumlieni, >> there is likely to be considerable variation in wingtip pigmentation, >> bill size, etc.--even within a brood of siblings whose parents, >> grandparents, and great grandparents all lived and died as run of the >> mill kumlieni. Clearly, a lightly pigmented individual of this sort >> is in no way more RELATED to glaucoides than is its more heavily >> pigmented sibling, nor is the darker bird somehow related to thayeri. >> These individuals might be more or less difficult to DISTINGUISH from >> individuals of those other taxa, but they are kith and kin to each other and to generations of Kumlien's Gulls. >>>> >>>> If two very pale, small-billed Kumlien's Gulls happened to pair, >>>> and if >> one of their offspring happened to closely resemble typical birds >> from Greenland-breeding populations, this bird would not "be" an >> example of glaucoides; it would be an example of kumlieni impossible >> to distinguish >> (visually) from glaucoides. Ditto for dark Kumlien's Gulls in >> relation to >> Thayer's Gull. >>>> >>>> This distinction is not just semantics; it is also conceptually >>>> useful >> for thinking about the broader challenges of taxonomy and identification. >> Given the undoubted existence of variation among run of the mill Canadian- >> breeding Iceland Gulls, it is perfectly plausible that characters >> such as >> pigmentation might evolve slightly over time within these >> populations, via >> natural selection or genetic drift. This could (and probably does) happen >> without the need for any gene flow whatsoever from other taxa (e.g., >> thayeri or glaucoides). >>>> >>>> Identifying glaucoides in North America involves making a case for >> vagrancy from a population of glaucoides, vs. a more or less unusual >> variant from a population of kumlieni. Short of band recoveries or >> multiple genetic markers, this process would begin with rigorously >> quantifying the frequency of pale, small-billed individuals in >> Canadian- breeding populations. >>>> >>>> Shai Mitra >>>> Bay Shore, NY >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification >> [BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] on behalf of Jean Iron >> [jeaniron AT SYMPATICO.CA] >>>> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 12:25 PM >>>> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU >>>> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN >>>> >>>> There is a continuum from darkest thayeri through kumlieni to glaucoides >>>> (Snell in Birds of North America (BNA) no. 699, 2002). I've seen >>>> many individuals that are essentially glaucoides but they have >>>> slight pigmentation in the primaries. These are by definition >>>> kumlieni but to >> my >>>> mind are genetically mostly glaucioides. Karl Bardon's bird in the link >>>> below shows no evidence of kumlieni. It falls inside the line for >> nominate >>>> glaucoides and meets the criteria for a winter adult by its combination >> of >>>> immaculate primary tips, small size, small bill, very pale >>>> Glaucous- like >>>> mantle, clear yellow eyes, and pale spotting on the head and nape. This >> bird >>>> is as certain as we can be in identifying most subspecies in the field. >>>> >>>> See 8 photos under Iceland Gull, adult #one. Karl, please put a >>>> direct >> link >>>> to these birds. Mine doesn't always work. >>>> www.pbase.com/karlbardon/duluthsuperior_gulls_20112012 >>>> >>>> There are solid records of nominate glaucoides in Ontario including >>>> a specimen of a winter adult from Ottawa. >>>> http://www.jeaniron.ca/2010/icelandgullRF.pdf >>>> >>>> I recommend that everyone read BNA 699 for the best information >>>> (peer >>>> reviewed) available about the Iceland and Thayer's Gull complex. >>>> The BNA >>>> series is available online from Cornell for a cost and worth every >> penny: >>>> http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/bna >>>> >>>> Ron Pittaway, >>>> Minden, Ontario >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> >>>> Change is in the Air - Smoking in Designated Areas Only in >> effect. >>>> Tobacco-Free Campus as of July 1, 2012. >>>> >>>> >>>> Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa? >> SUBED1=birdwg01 >>>> >>>> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html >>> >>> >>>Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa? >> SUBED1=birdwg01 >>> >>>Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html >>>===================================================================== >>>=== >> > > >Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa? SUBED1=birdwg01 > >Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html >======================================================================= >= Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: glaucoides in California? From: Bruce Mactavish <bruce.mactavish1 AT NF.SYMPATICO.CA> Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 08:32:26 -0330 The wing spread shots show a darker brown leading edge to the outer most five primaries (P10-P6). This would be a sign of Kumlien's. Glaucoides should show evenly pale outer primaries with little or no contrast between outer and inner webs. However, in late winter/early spring in Newfoundland many 1st winter Kumlien's lose the markings in the outer five primaries due to fading. The fading begins now and by April many (most?) 1st winter Kumlien's show plain unmarked outer primaries. Being sure about the identity of a 1st winter glaucoides in late winter is probably impossible, if ever possible at any time. Meanwhile the majority Kumlien's are easily identifiable during the first half of winter at least but become increasing difficult in late winter and early spring when many lost all outer primary markings. Bruce Mactavish St. John's, Newfoundland -----Original Message----- From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Steve Hampton Sent: February-04-12 3:52 AM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: [BIRDWG01] glaucoides in California? Thanks for the timely discussion on kumlieni vs glaucoides. We currently have a first cycle bird in California: http://www.flickr.com/photos/7202050 AT N04/sets/72157629151625155/ and https://picasaweb.google.com/108389660674446341958/IcelandGull?authuser=0&fe at=directlink#5705043052763186834 There seems to be no defined line between kumlieni and glaucoides. (I search for one on my thayeri-kumlieni-glaucoides scale at http://www.tertial.us/gulls/tkg.htm where I scored this bird about a 6.) The line seems to be drawn loosely in Iceland (where at least one birder told me he has no problem calling this a glaucoides), but more strictly in Europe and N America. I suspect this bird would be called a glaucoides in Iceland and a kumlieni outside of it, which is rather unsatisfying. The issue becomes more clouded in California, where we do NOT have a bell-shaped curve of thayeri-kumlieni-glaucoides as described for eastern NA. Thayeri are winter residents of course, but then we have a smattering of dark thayeri-kumlieni birds, absolutely no lighter kumlieni, and now 5+ white-winged glaucoides-type birds. Thus, it's a bi-modal distribution. I do not think fading and bleaching explain it. Likewise, most Iceland records from Korea and Japan are white-winged presumed nominate glaucoides. (Are we getting those mystery white-winged gulls from N. Russia referenced on p. 215 of Olsen and Larsson (2003)?) Where you live, what would you call this gull? (I ask with a touch of cynicism.) thanks, Steve Hampton ________________ Resource Economist Office of Spill Prevention and Response California Dept of Fish and Game PO Box 944209 Sacramento, CA 94244-2090 ----------------------------------- (916) 323-4724 phone (916) 324-8829 fax Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN From: Amar Ayyash <amarayyash AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 03:46:51 -0700 Jim, your point is well taken and I'm sure this "double standard" exists mainly for the reason you mentioned; That is, Thayer's treated as a full species by some as opposed to a subspecies. From a southern Lake Michigan perspective, particularly northeastern Illinois, we record more Thayer's than Kumlien's (maybe a ratio of 6 to 1). Our identifications are based mainly on structure and wingtip patterns (the extent and shade of black). Those we call Thayer's usually show larger bills and larger heads and have the darkest wingtips (negligibly paler than Herring's primaries). But as you say, some are not safely told apart, and many of us keep such individuals as question marks. Some birders here call them "tweeners" and we debate these birds on a somewhat regular basis. It's not unusual to find a couple on any given day of good winter gulling. Here's a good example of one photographed in Indiana by John Cassady: http://www.jkcassady.com/gallery/icguxthguA.htm Perhaps part of my bias, if you'd like to call it that, stems from the geographical location of Thayer's. To me, it's much more conceiveable that Thayer's would show up on the western Great Lakes than glaucoides (based on known breeding grounds and migration routes). I don't doubt for one second that gulls from Greenland can't find there way to the states (I'd like to believe LBBGs do :), but the fact that so very few glaucoides are recorded in St. John's (among the thousands of Kumlien's) is, I think, noteworthy. Amar Ayyash Frankfort, IL On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 21:21:50 -0500, James Pawlicki wrote: >Amar- > >I guess part of my argument is fueled by popular thought that seems to >sway heavily in favor of a higher confidence level in thayeri outside >the core winter range vs. that of glaucoides. I think many would agree >that thayeri are occurring in the Great Lakes and parts of E. North >America with regular frequency (although band/satellite recoveries >would certainly be nice...), and in the process, the species is >confidently labeled as such in those parts even *knowing* the extreme >variability in kumlieni, which can approach, and potentially be >identical in appearance to thayeri. It would seem that this same >confidence level is not the case with otherwise pure-looking >glaucoides in E. North America/Great Lakes, and it is held to a higher >standard. > >The obvious suspicion is that it is a result of thayeri being treated >as a species, while kumlieni is treated as a subspecies next to >glaucoides. I say this as I am sure everybody here would generally >agree that in most cases, one can be more confident in a specific ID >vs. subspecific ID. But at the same time, it would be reasonable to >believe that kumlieni, being an extremely variable taxa showing >physical traits falling between thayeri and glaucoides, was at one >time the result of breeding between two distinct taxa known as thayeri >and glaucoides, therefore forming the cline that Snell described. But >relating this back to to field ID in parts dominated by kumlieni, I >don’t see the case for the double standard on glaucoides at the >pale/east end of the spectrum, which on the other hand seems to be >lacking for thayeri at the dark/western end of the spectrum. > > >Jim Pawlicki > >On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Amar_Ayyash wrote: >> James and all - >> >> I was recently talking to a birder from New Jersey who serves on the >> records committee there, and I was quite impressed by his requirements for >> endorsing a probable nominate adult glaucoides. I'm sure records comittees >> from differing states/provinces have their own expectations for this >> taxon, but I would hope all were uncompromising. >> >> I don't have any problem with keeping open the possibility of a stray >> glaucoides (I think it would be imprudent not to), but I also don't have a >> problem with leaving them as "not safely distinguishable" unless certain >> criteria are met. Hence, a "Kumlien's until proven otherwise" attitude >> should indeed be the message we'd want to send for now. >> >> I imagine that discussions like this one can easily influence popular >> thought among some birders and I think caution needs to be taken. I've >> found several examples in the Great Lakes region where birding literature >> is misguided and often gives the impression that Kumlien's is "the more >> common" Iceland Gull, leaving folks with the impression that >> it's "uncommon" to stumble upon a glaucoides, but still within reasonable >> reach. One author went as far as saying, "Most Icelands seen in *state's >> name deleted* are Kumlien's". Interestingly, that state has no verifiable >> records of nominate glaucoides. >> >> >> Kind regards, >> Amar Ayyash >> Frankfort, IL >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 15:46:45 -0500, James Pawlicki >> wrote: >> >>>All- >>> >>>A quick thought I would like to bring up regarding these “glaucoides” >>>individuals (and adults strictly speaking) in NE N. America and the >>>Great Lakes region: >>> >>>If these individuals showing a full (by full I mean “mini-Glaucous >>>Gull”) suite of glaucoides traits are presumably occurring within the >>>same colonies and even the same broods as birds showing mixed >>>light/dark traits (ie. what we currently classify as kumlieni), then >>>why the rarity of these full suite glaucoides in areas where numerous >>>kumlieni winter. From an eastern Great Lakes/Niagara River >>>perspective, we see small numbers of individuals that are full suite >>>thayeri, many birds that are classified as pale thayeri/dark kumlieni, >>>large numbers of typical (and variable) kumlieni, small numbers of >>>pale (but still showing some mixed traits) kumlieni, and very, very >>>rarely individuals that have an absolutely full suite of glaucoides >>>traits like the Duluth bird. In my mind I see this rarity in itself as >>>making a substantial case for vagrancy by glaucoides. >>> >>>Apart from the actual genetics involved and dealing only with >>>populations, the big question in this case is how frequent are >>>individuals showing a full suite of glaucoides traits in kumlieni >>>breeding colonies? Are they common, rare, or extremely rare?  Until >>>that question can be answered with some degree of confidence, I see no >>>reason why these individuals should be viewed exclusively as “kumlieni >>>until proven otherwise.” >>> >>>Jim Pawlicki >>>Buffalo, NY USA >>> >>> >>> >>>On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 1:49 PM, Shaibal Mitra >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> This pale, petite Iceland Gull is very interesting (and attractive!) >> but I don't agree with Ron's interpretation of the genetics and taxonomy >> involved >>>> >>>> Taxa are not defined by phenotypic characters--nor even by genetic ones- >> -but rather as demographically cohesive groups of populations, whose >> members can often be RECOGNIZED by characters or sets of characters. >>>> >>>> Kumlieni refers to a group of populations of Iceland Gulls breeding in >> Canada which are believed to be relatively cohesive demographically. That >> is, they are believed to be much more likely to exchange dispersing >> individuals amongst themselves than between themselves and populations >> breeding in Greenland (or between themselves and populations of Thayer's >> Gulls). Within any population of kumlieni, there is likely to be >> considerable variation in wingtip pigmentation, bill size, etc.--even >> within a brood of siblings whose parents, grandparents, and great >> grandparents all lived and died as run of the mill kumlieni. Clearly, a >> lightly pigmented individual of this sort is in no way more RELATED to >> glaucoides than is its more heavily pigmented sibling, nor is the darker >> bird somehow related to thayeri. These individuals might be more or less >> difficult to DISTINGUISH from individuals of those other taxa, but they >> are kith and kin to each other and to generations of Kumlien's Gulls. >>>> >>>> If two very pale, small-billed Kumlien's Gulls happened to pair, and if >> one of their offspring happened to closely resemble typical birds from >> Greenland-breeding populations, this bird would not "be" an example of >> glaucoides; it would be an example of kumlieni impossible to distinguish >> (visually) from glaucoides. Ditto for dark Kumlien's Gulls in relation to >> Thayer's Gull. >>>> >>>> This distinction is not just semantics; it is also conceptually useful >> for thinking about the broader challenges of taxonomy and identification. >> Given the undoubted existence of variation among run of the mill Canadian- >> breeding Iceland Gulls, it is perfectly plausible that characters such as >> pigmentation might evolve slightly over time within these populations, via >> natural selection or genetic drift. This could (and probably does) happen >> without the need for any gene flow whatsoever from other taxa (e.g., >> thayeri or glaucoides). >>>> >>>> Identifying glaucoides in North America involves making a case for >> vagrancy from a population of glaucoides, vs. a more or less unusual >> variant from a population of kumlieni. Short of band recoveries or >> multiple genetic markers, this process would begin with rigorously >> quantifying the frequency of pale, small-billed individuals in Canadian- >> breeding populations. >>>> >>>> Shai Mitra >>>> Bay Shore, NY >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification >> [BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] on behalf of Jean Iron >> [jeaniron AT SYMPATICO.CA] >>>> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 12:25 PM >>>> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU >>>> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN >>>> >>>> There is a continuum from darkest thayeri through kumlieni to glaucoides >>>> (Snell in Birds of North America (BNA) no. 699, 2002). I've seen many >>>> individuals that are essentially glaucoides but they have slight >>>> pigmentation in the primaries. These are by definition kumlieni but to >> my >>>> mind are genetically mostly glaucioides. Karl Bardon's bird in the link >>>> below shows no evidence of kumlieni. It falls inside the line for >> nominate >>>> glaucoides and meets the criteria for a winter adult by its combination >> of >>>> immaculate primary tips, small size, small bill, very pale Glaucous- like >>>> mantle, clear yellow eyes, and pale spotting on the head and nape. This >> bird >>>> is as certain as we can be in identifying most subspecies in the field. >>>> >>>> See 8 photos under Iceland Gull, adult #one. Karl, please put a direct >> link >>>> to these birds. Mine doesn't always work. >>>> www.pbase.com/karlbardon/duluthsuperior_gulls_20112012 >>>> >>>> There are solid records of nominate glaucoides in Ontario including a >>>> specimen of a winter adult from Ottawa. >>>> http://www.jeaniron.ca/2010/icelandgullRF.pdf >>>> >>>> I recommend that everyone read BNA 699 for the best information (peer >>>> reviewed) available about the Iceland and Thayer's Gull complex. The BNA >>>> series is available online from Cornell for a cost and worth every >> penny: >>>> http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/bna >>>> >>>> Ron Pittaway, >>>> Minden, Ontario >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> >>>> Change is in the Air - Smoking in Designated Areas Only in >> effect. >>>> Tobacco-Free Campus as of July 1, 2012. >>>> >>>> >>>> Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa? >> SUBED1=birdwg01 >>>> >>>> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html >>> >>> >>>Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa? >> SUBED1=birdwg01 >>> >>>Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html >>>======================================================================== >> > > >Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa? SUBED1=birdwg01 > >Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html >======================================================================== Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Photos of possible Kelp Gull at Brownsville, TX dump on 3 February 2012 From: Amar Ayyash <amarayyash AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 02:17:53 -0700 Dave, some Lessers are indeed "monsters" and I've seen a few that match (and probably even exceed) the size of Herrings. Of course the bigger your sample of birds the more appreciable these differences become, and Florida is perhaps the best place in the United States to study this species. The bill on the Texas bird does look big compared to the "slender black bill" we associate with LBBG. With that said, I think Howell and Dunn do a good job of showing an assortment of bill sizes in their plates (see plate 27.11 for one very similar to yours). To me, 2nd cycle Lessers "appear" to have overly large bills but I think much of this is an illusion because of the yellow coloration that starts to come in. I've linked an album of mine below that illustrate the plumage characters described by Alvaro. Note the tail patterns in particular: https://picasaweb.google.com/103465823166118508417/FLLBBGLAGU#5568022340888 395778 Best wishes, Amar Ayyash Frankfort, IL On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 22:25:55 -0800, Alvaro Jaramillo wrote: >David and Shawneen > > > > Cool looking bird! Any crows around too? In any case, my opinion is >that this is a large and bulky Lesser Black-backed Gull. In the 150 or so I >saw in Florida last week there were a few monsters like this. They are the >minority though. Structurally, this bird is pretty good for Kelp, but in >structure it does overlap with a larger Lesser Black-backed Gull. These are >the reasons I think it is a Lesser BB and not a Kelp: > > > >- Tail pattern. Kelp tends to have a largely dark tail in the first >cycle with restricted barring on the base of the outers. A tail much more >like a smithsonianus than a Lesser BB. That dark tail contrasts strongly >with a whitish rump and uppertail coverts though, unlike smithsonianus. >There are some Kelps with more white at tail base, but this bird shows more >than what is common or expected on Kelp. > >- Back pattern of second generation feathers. The Texas bird shows >dark anchor shaped marks on the scapulars, a pattern common to some Lesser >BB Gulls. Kelp matures early, and the second generation feathers are either >sooty grey, or very dark brownish and unpatterned except for a messy buffy >or whitish tip. Rarely are there anchor type patterns in Kelp, and these are >restricted to a few feathers. > >- Molt. I am not convinced that this bird is molting; it might be >showing a mis-arranged primary. I guess more photos might clarify this. In >any case, now is not when you would expect a first cycle Kelp to be molting >primaries. Pacific Kelps are fledging right now, the Atlantic Kelps have >fledged a few months ago (Juveniles in December in Uruguay, while they are >not seen until February in Chile). These birds keep their juvenile wings >throughout the winter, the earliest you expect to see inner primary molt is >in early spring, roughly early to mid November. In February you will see >adults in primary molt, but first cycle birds have probably finished by now. >Having said this a molting first cycle Kelp will look worn and bedraggled, >and will show new and sooty grey inner median coverts as these come in >roughly when the first primaries start to go. > >- Bill color is entirely blackish. This is expected in juvenile >Kelps but by the time they are a few months old some pale begins to appear >in the bill. By the time they are starting the first wing molt they should >have substantial yellowish-pink at the base of the bill. > >- Tertials on the Texas bird look dark with a fine pale edge. This >pattern is not as common on Kelp as a dark tertials with a very large and >distinct white tip. > > > >Sorry to be a downer, but my guess is that this is not a Kelp. I could be >wrong, and my understanding of Kelp may be biased towards the more southern >birds, but then again the northern populations are relatively recently >established from more southern birds. > > > >Good birding > > > >Alvaro > > > >Alvaro Jaramillo > >chucao AT coastside.net > >Half Moon Bay, California > > > >Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide > >www.fieldguides.com > > _____ > >From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification >[mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of David Irons >Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 9:14 PM >To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU >Subject: [BIRDWG01] Photos of possible Kelp Gull at Brownsville, TX dump on >3 February 2012 > > > >Greetings All, > >Shawneen Finnegan and I are currently vacationing in the Rio Grande Valley >of Texas. Today we spent about 1.5 hours at the Brownsville dump. In >addition to finding a 1st-cycle Lesser Black-backed Gull and a presumed >1st-cycle Thayer's Gull--it was quite washed out and showed less contrast >than Thayer's we see at home in Oregon--Shawneen found a 1st-cycle gull with >a very heavy/thick all-dark bill. She pointed it out to me and my first >impression was that structurally it seemed like a miniature 1st-cycle Great >Black-backed Gull, but it was much too small to be that species. We saw it >in association with Laughing, Ring-billed, and Herring Gulls and soon after >finding this bird found the 1st-cycle Lesser Black-backed Gull. > >It was clearly larger than the Ring-billeds, but was shorter in >stature--both length and height--than the Herring Gulls. It was >heavy-necked, definitely chunkier than the Lesser Black-backed and >chunkier/less rangy than the myriad of Herring Gulls that we were present. >We concluded that this bird is most suggestive of a Kelp Gull. Of course the >possibility of Kelp Gull X Herring Gull cannot be easily ruled out given our >limited understanding of the appearance of this hybrid during its first >plumage cycle. One thing that can be seen in the flight shot is that the >bird is molting primary feathers. This fits the molt sequence for Kelp Gull >and does not fit the molt sequence for North American larids. > >Shawneen's prior experience with Kelp Gull is limited to seeing the adult in >Maryland more than a decade ago and I have no experience with this species. >We welcome opinions on the photos at the link below. Mary Gustafson and >perhaps others plan to try to relocate this bird tomorrow. I have a few >other photos of this bird that I will add to the gallery at the link below >when we get home in a few days. > >http://www.birdfellow.com/photos/gallery/436-brownsville-cameron-co-tx- dump- >03-february-2012 > >Once you open this gallery in thumbnail view, you can click on the featured >image and make it full-page. > >Dave Irons and Shawneen Finnegan >Portland, OR (currently in San Benito, TX) > > > >Join or Leave BIRDWG01: >http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > >Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > > > > > >Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa? SUBED1=birdwg01 > >Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: glaucoides in California? From: Steve Hampton <shampton AT OSPR.DFG.CA.GOV> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 23:21:58 -0800 Thanks for the timely discussion on kumlieni vs glaucoides. We currently have a first cycle bird in California: http://www.flickr.com/photos/7202050 AT N04/sets/72157629151625155/ and https://picasaweb.google.com/108389660674446341958/IcelandGull?authuser=0&feat=directlink#5705043052763186834 There seems to be no defined line between kumlieni and glaucoides. (I search for one on my thayeri-kumlieni-glaucoides scale at http://www.tertial.us/gulls/tkg.htm where I scored this bird about a 6.) The line seems to be drawn loosely in Iceland (where at least one birder told me he has no problem calling this a glaucoides), but more strictly in Europe and N America. I suspect this bird would be called a glaucoides in Iceland and a kumlieni outside of it, which is rather unsatisfying. The issue becomes more clouded in California, where we do NOT have a bell-shaped curve of thayeri-kumlieni-glaucoides as described for eastern NA. Thayeri are winter residents of course, but then we have a smattering of dark thayeri-kumlieni birds, absolutely no lighter kumlieni, and now 5+ white-winged glaucoides-type birds. Thus, it's a bi-modal distribution. I do not think fading and bleaching explain it. Likewise, most Iceland records from Korea and Japan are white-winged presumed nominate glaucoides. (Are we getting those mystery white-winged gulls from N. Russia referenced on p. 215 of Olsen and Larsson (2003)?) Where you live, what would you call this gull? (I ask with a touch of cynicism.) thanks, Steve Hampton ________________ Resource Economist Office of Spill Prevention and Response California Dept of Fish and Game PO Box 944209 Sacramento, CA 94244-2090 ----------------------------------- (916) 323-4724 phone (916) 324-8829 fax Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Photos of possible Kelp Gull at Brownsville, TX dump on 3 February 2012 From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 22:25:55 -0800 David and Shawneen Cool looking bird! Any crows around too? In any case, my opinion is that this is a large and bulky Lesser Black-backed Gull. In the 150 or so I saw in Florida last week there were a few monsters like this. They are the minority though. Structurally, this bird is pretty good for Kelp, but in structure it does overlap with a larger Lesser Black-backed Gull. These are the reasons I think it is a Lesser BB and not a Kelp: - Tail pattern. Kelp tends to have a largely dark tail in the first cycle with restricted barring on the base of the outers. A tail much more like a smithsonianus than a Lesser BB. That dark tail contrasts strongly with a whitish rump and uppertail coverts though, unlike smithsonianus. There are some Kelps with more white at tail base, but this bird shows more than what is common or expected on Kelp. - Back pattern of second generation feathers. The Texas bird shows dark anchor shaped marks on the scapulars, a pattern common to some Lesser BB Gulls. Kelp matures early, and the second generation feathers are either sooty grey, or very dark brownish and unpatterned except for a messy buffy or whitish tip. Rarely are there anchor type patterns in Kelp, and these are restricted to a few feathers. - Molt. I am not convinced that this bird is molting; it might be showing a mis-arranged primary. I guess more photos might clarify this. In any case, now is not when you would expect a first cycle Kelp to be molting primaries. Pacific Kelps are fledging right now, the Atlantic Kelps have fledged a few months ago (Juveniles in December in Uruguay, while they are not seen until February in Chile). These birds keep their juvenile wings throughout the winter, the earliest you expect to see inner primary molt is in early spring, roughly early to mid November. In February you will see adults in primary molt, but first cycle birds have probably finished by now. Having said this a molting first cycle Kelp will look worn and bedraggled, and will show new and sooty grey inner median coverts as these come in roughly when the first primaries start to go. - Bill color is entirely blackish. This is expected in juvenile Kelps but by the time they are a few months old some pale begins to appear in the bill. By the time they are starting the first wing molt they should have substantial yellowish-pink at the base of the bill. - Tertials on the Texas bird look dark with a fine pale edge. This pattern is not as common on Kelp as a dark tertials with a very large and distinct white tip. Sorry to be a downer, but my guess is that this is not a Kelp. I could be wrong, and my understanding of Kelp may be biased towards the more southern birds, but then again the northern populations are relatively recently established from more southern birds. Good birding Alvaro Alvaro Jaramillo chucao AT coastside.net Half Moon Bay, California Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide www.fieldguides.com _____ From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of David Irons Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 9:14 PM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: [BIRDWG01] Photos of possible Kelp Gull at Brownsville, TX dump on 3 February 2012 Greetings All, Shawneen Finnegan and I are currently vacationing in the Rio Grande Valley of Texas. Today we spent about 1.5 hours at the Brownsville dump. In addition to finding a 1st-cycle Lesser Black-backed Gull and a presumed 1st-cycle Thayer's Gull--it was quite washed out and showed less contrast than Thayer's we see at home in Oregon--Shawneen found a 1st-cycle gull with a very heavy/thick all-dark bill. She pointed it out to me and my first impression was that structurally it seemed like a miniature 1st-cycle Great Black-backed Gull, but it was much too small to be that species. We saw it in association with Laughing, Ring-billed, and Herring Gulls and soon after finding this bird found the 1st-cycle Lesser Black-backed Gull. It was clearly larger than the Ring-billeds, but was shorter in stature--both length and height--than the Herring Gulls. It was heavy-necked, definitely chunkier than the Lesser Black-backed and chunkier/less rangy than the myriad of Herring Gulls that we were present. We concluded that this bird is most suggestive of a Kelp Gull. Of course the possibility of Kelp Gull X Herring Gull cannot be easily ruled out given our limited understanding of the appearance of this hybrid during its first plumage cycle. One thing that can be seen in the flight shot is that the bird is molting primary feathers. This fits the molt sequence for Kelp Gull and does not fit the molt sequence for North American larids. Shawneen's prior experience with Kelp Gull is limited to seeing the adult in Maryland more than a decade ago and I have no experience with this species. We welcome opinions on the photos at the link below. Mary Gustafson and perhaps others plan to try to relocate this bird tomorrow. I have a few other photos of this bird that I will add to the gallery at the link below when we get home in a few days. http://www.birdfellow.com/photos/gallery/436-brownsville-cameron-co-tx-dump- 03-february-2012 Once you open this gallery in thumbnail view, you can click on the featured image and make it full-page. Dave Irons and Shawneen Finnegan Portland, OR (currently in San Benito, TX) Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Nominate glaucoides From: Chuck Carlson <chuckcmt AT NEMONT.NET> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 22:22:01 -0700 To throw a little more into this mix, a very light Iceland was on the Missouri River at Ft. Peck, MT from December 10 through January 16. Photos are posted at http://www.flickr.com/photos/prairie_shots/6813888997/in/photostream. Ft. Peck is in the northeast corner of the state. One of the photos shows it flying with a kumlieni. None of the shots are as clear as others I have seen because the birds kept their distance, but I can’t see any markings in the primaries. Chuck Carlson Ft. Peck MT Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Photos of possible Kelp Gull at Brownsville, TX dump on 3 February 2012 From: David Irons <llsdirons AT MSN.COM> Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 05:14:11 +0000 Greetings All, Shawneen Finnegan and I are currently vacationing in the Rio Grande Valley of Texas. Today we spent about 1.5 hours at the Brownsville dump. In addition to finding a 1st-cycle Lesser Black-backed Gull and a presumed 1st-cycle Thayer's Gull--it was quite washed out and showed less contrast than Thayer's we see at home in Oregon--Shawneen found a 1st-cycle gull with a very heavy/thick all-dark bill. She pointed it out to me and my first impression was that structurally it seemed like a miniature 1st-cycle Great Black-backed Gull, but it was much too small to be that species. We saw it in association with Laughing, Ring-billed, and Herring Gulls and soon after finding this bird found the 1st-cycle Lesser Black-backed Gull. It was clearly larger than the Ring-billeds, but was shorter in stature--both length and height--than the Herring Gulls. It was heavy-necked, definitely chunkier than the Lesser Black-backed and chunkier/less rangy than the myriad of Herring Gulls that we were present. We concluded that this bird is most suggestive of a Kelp Gull. Of course the possibility of Kelp Gull X Herring Gull cannot be easily ruled out given our limited understanding of the appearance of this hybrid during its first plumage cycle. One thing that can be seen in the flight shot is that the bird is molting primary feathers. This fits the molt sequence for Kelp Gull and does not fit the molt sequence for North American larids. Shawneen's prior experience with Kelp Gull is limited to seeing the adult in Maryland more than a decade ago and I have no experience with this species. We welcome opinions on the photos at the link below. Mary Gustafson and perhaps others plan to try to relocate this bird tomorrow. I have a few other photos of this bird that I will add to the gallery at the link below when we get home in a few days. http://www.birdfellow.com/photos/gallery/436-brownsville-cameron-co-tx-dump-03-february-2012 Once you open this gallery in thumbnail view, you can click on the featured image and make it full-page. Dave Irons and Shawneen Finnegan Portland, OR (currently in San Benito, TX) Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN From: Shaibal Mitra <Shaibal.Mitra AT CSI.CUNY.EDU> Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 02:34:47 +0000 Alvaro and all, I chose this example for this very reason: the apparent intermediacy of nigrifrons is not attributable to gene flow between auduboni and goldmani. Similarly, the apparent intermediacy of kumlieni should not be assumed to be a consequence of gene flow between thayeri and glaucoides. Shai ________________________________________ From: Alvaro Jaramillo [chucao AT coastside.net] Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 7:30 PM To: Shaibal Mitra; BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: RE: [BIRDWG01] Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN Shai, Nothing to do with your argument, which I am enjoying reading. However the Yellow-rumped complex is complex! It turns out that the data suggests that Audubon's may in fact be a lineage coming from hybrid origin (Myrtle x one of the southern forms or an earlier version of the southern forms). Currently Audubon's is genetically closer to Myrtle than either is to nigrifrons or Goldman's, perhaps due to more recent introgression? So although the exterior look of Goldman's and nigrifrons is more Audubon's like; Audubon's is more closely related to the different looking Myrtle. There are a couple of papers on this from the last few years - Borja Mila is the main author. Hopefully I did not mess up that story. Alvaro Alvaro Jaramillo chucao AT coastside.net Half Moon Bay, California Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide www.fieldguides.com -----Original Message----- From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Shaibal Mitra Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 3:52 PM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN Both Ron and Jim make great points in favor of the view that the Duluth bird is a vagrant bird from a glaucoides population, as opposed to a variant from a kumlieni population, and Amar states the operational considerations very nicely. I'm not sure that this bird is a glaucoides, but my point was not to argue that is isn't. Nor was my point to argue that subspecies can't be identified in the field; I believe that this is often possible, as long as it is done within the appropriate conceptual and quantitative framework. Both Ron and Jim know more about the latter for Iceland Gulls than I do, and it might be quite obvious to them that individuals resembling the Duluth bird occur so infrequently among Canadian breeders that vagrancy is a more reasonable interpretation for them. The point of my original post was quite different, namely to warn against typological conceptions of taxa. Canadian-breeding Iceland Gulls that happen to be pale are not necessarily more related (demographically or genetically) to Greenland breeders, and Canadian-breeding Iceland Gulls that happen to be dark are not necessarily more related (demographically or genetically) to Thayer's Gulls. Hybridization/introgression/gene flow is one possible interpretation of the variability among Kumlien's Gulls, but it is not the only one. To my knowledge, the role of gene flow, as opposed to, for instance, natural selection, has not been established here by any empirical studies, Snell's work included. It is true that there are examples of continua that can be shown to have been caused by gene flow (e.g., "Olympic Gull"), but there are also innumerable examples that are clearly caused by natural selection (e.g., north-south series of parulid warblers, like Northern Parula to nigrilora Tropical Parula to pacifica Tropical Parula, or graciae Grace's Warbler to decora Grace's Warbler to Adelaide's Warbler, or auduboni Audubon's Warbler to nigrifrons Audubon's Warbler to Goldman's Warbler). My claim that kumlieni is thought to refer to a cohesive group of populations is based on the fact that it is a named subspecies. In situations where known hybrid populations (e.g., "Olympic Gull") demonstrably do NOT cohere to one another any more than they do to those of the hybridizing taxa (e.g., Glaucous-winged Gull and Western Gull), these hybrids are not named as taxa. Furthermore, I think that the existence of Greenland-breeding glaucoides with pigmented wingtips and other variant features actually illustrates this point rather well. It shows that individuals of this appearance that might be seen in Iceland in winter should NOT reflexively be identified as kumlieni. The existence of these variants implies that, at least in theory, natural selection and/or genetic drift could reshape Greenland breeders toward a dark-mantled, dark-eyed, dark-wingtipped phenotype at some point in the future. If this were to happen, these birds would NOT be Thayer's Gulls! Shai Mitra Bay Shore ________________________________ Change is in the Air - Smoking in Designated Areas Only in effect. Tobacco-Free Campus as of July 1, 2012. Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html ________________________________ Change is in the Air - Smoking in Designated Areas Only in effect. Tobacco-Free Campus as of July 1, 2012. Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN From: James Pawlicki <jmpawli10 AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 21:21:50 -0500 Amar- I guess part of my argument is fueled by popular thought that seems to sway heavily in favor of a higher confidence level in thayeri outside the core winter range vs. that of glaucoides. I think many would agree that thayeri are occurring in the Great Lakes and parts of E. North America with regular frequency (although band/satellite recoveries would certainly be nice...), and in the process, the species is confidently labeled as such in those parts even *knowing* the extreme variability in kumlieni, which can approach, and potentially be identical in appearance to thayeri. It would seem that this same confidence level is not the case with otherwise pure-looking glaucoides in E. North America/Great Lakes, and it is held to a higher standard. The obvious suspicion is that it is a result of thayeri being treated as a species, while kumlieni is treated as a subspecies next to glaucoides. I say this as I am sure everybody here would generally agree that in most cases, one can be more confident in a specific ID vs. subspecific ID. But at the same time, it would be reasonable to believe that kumlieni, being an extremely variable taxa showing physical traits falling between thayeri and glaucoides, was at one time the result of breeding between two distinct taxa known as thayeri and glaucoides, therefore forming the cline that Snell described. But relating this back to to field ID in parts dominated by kumlieni, I don’t see the case for the double standard on glaucoides at the pale/east end of the spectrum, which on the other hand seems to be lacking for thayeri at the dark/western end of the spectrum. Jim Pawlicki On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Amar_Ayyash wrote: > James and all - > > I was recently talking to a birder from New Jersey who serves on the > records committee there, and I was quite impressed by his requirements for > endorsing a probable nominate adult glaucoides. I'm sure records comittees > from differing states/provinces have their own expectations for this > taxon, but I would hope all were uncompromising. > > I don't have any problem with keeping open the possibility of a stray > glaucoides (I think it would be imprudent not to), but I also don't have a > problem with leaving them as "not safely distinguishable" unless certain > criteria are met. Hence, a "Kumlien's until proven otherwise" attitude > should indeed be the message we'd want to send for now. > > I imagine that discussions like this one can easily influence popular > thought among some birders and I think caution needs to be taken. I've > found several examples in the Great Lakes region where birding literature > is misguided and often gives the impression that Kumlien's is "the more > common" Iceland Gull, leaving folks with the impression that > it's "uncommon" to stumble upon a glaucoides, but still within reasonable > reach. One author went as far as saying, "Most Icelands seen in *state's > name deleted* are Kumlien's". Interestingly, that state has no verifiable > records of nominate glaucoides. > > > Kind regards, > Amar Ayyash > Frankfort, IL > > > > > On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 15:46:45 -0500, James Pawlicki > wrote: > >>All- >> >>A quick thought I would like to bring up regarding these “glaucoides” >>individuals (and adults strictly speaking) in NE N. America and the >>Great Lakes region: >> >>If these individuals showing a full (by full I mean “mini-Glaucous >>Gull”) suite of glaucoides traits are presumably occurring within the >>same colonies and even the same broods as birds showing mixed >>light/dark traits (ie. what we currently classify as kumlieni), then >>why the rarity of these full suite glaucoides in areas where numerous >>kumlieni winter. From an eastern Great Lakes/Niagara River >>perspective, we see small numbers of individuals that are full suite >>thayeri, many birds that are classified as pale thayeri/dark kumlieni, >>large numbers of typical (and variable) kumlieni, small numbers of >>pale (but still showing some mixed traits) kumlieni, and very, very >>rarely individuals that have an absolutely full suite of glaucoides >>traits like the Duluth bird. In my mind I see this rarity in itself as >>making a substantial case for vagrancy by glaucoides. >> >>Apart from the actual genetics involved and dealing only with >>populations, the big question in this case is how frequent are >>individuals showing a full suite of glaucoides traits in kumlieni >>breeding colonies? Are they common, rare, or extremely rare?  Until >>that question can be answered with some degree of confidence, I see no >>reason why these individuals should be viewed exclusively as “kumlieni >>until proven otherwise.” >> >>Jim Pawlicki >>Buffalo, NY USA >> >> >> >>On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 1:49 PM, Shaibal Mitra >> wrote: >>> >>> This pale, petite Iceland Gull is very interesting (and attractive!) > but I don't agree with Ron's interpretation of the genetics and taxonomy > involved >>> >>> Taxa are not defined by phenotypic characters--nor even by genetic ones- > -but rather as demographically cohesive groups of populations, whose > members can often be RECOGNIZED by characters or sets of characters. >>> >>> Kumlieni refers to a group of populations of Iceland Gulls breeding in > Canada which are believed to be relatively cohesive demographically. That > is, they are believed to be much more likely to exchange dispersing > individuals amongst themselves than between themselves and populations > breeding in Greenland (or between themselves and populations of Thayer's > Gulls). Within any population of kumlieni, there is likely to be > considerable variation in wingtip pigmentation, bill size, etc.--even > within a brood of siblings whose parents, grandparents, and great > grandparents all lived and died as run of the mill kumlieni. Clearly, a > lightly pigmented individual of this sort is in no way more RELATED to > glaucoides than is its more heavily pigmented sibling, nor is the darker > bird somehow related to thayeri. These individuals might be more or less > difficult to DISTINGUISH from individuals of those other taxa, but they > are kith and kin to each other and to generations of Kumlien's Gulls. >>> >>> If two very pale, small-billed Kumlien's Gulls happened to pair, and if > one of their offspring happened to closely resemble typical birds from > Greenland-breeding populations, this bird would not "be" an example of > glaucoides; it would be an example of kumlieni impossible to distinguish > (visually) from glaucoides. Ditto for dark Kumlien's Gulls in relation to > Thayer's Gull. >>> >>> This distinction is not just semantics; it is also conceptually useful > for thinking about the broader challenges of taxonomy and identification. > Given the undoubted existence of variation among run of the mill Canadian- > breeding Iceland Gulls, it is perfectly plausible that characters such as > pigmentation might evolve slightly over time within these populations, via > natural selection or genetic drift. This could (and probably does) happen > without the need for any gene flow whatsoever from other taxa (e.g., > thayeri or glaucoides). >>> >>> Identifying glaucoides in North America involves making a case for > vagrancy from a population of glaucoides, vs. a more or less unusual > variant from a population of kumlieni. Short of band recoveries or > multiple genetic markers, this process would begin with rigorously > quantifying the frequency of pale, small-billed individuals in Canadian- > breeding populations. >>> >>> Shai Mitra >>> Bay Shore, NY >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification > [BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] on behalf of Jean Iron > [jeaniron AT SYMPATICO.CA] >>> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 12:25 PM >>> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU >>> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN >>> >>> There is a continuum from darkest thayeri through kumlieni to glaucoides >>> (Snell in Birds of North America (BNA) no. 699, 2002). I've seen many >>> individuals that are essentially glaucoides but they have slight >>> pigmentation in the primaries. These are by definition kumlieni but to > my >>> mind are genetically mostly glaucioides. Karl Bardon's bird in the link >>> below shows no evidence of kumlieni. It falls inside the line for > nominate >>> glaucoides and meets the criteria for a winter adult by its combination > of >>> immaculate primary tips, small size, small bill, very pale Glaucous-like >>> mantle, clear yellow eyes, and pale spotting on the head and nape. This > bird >>> is as certain as we can be in identifying most subspecies in the field. >>> >>> See 8 photos under Iceland Gull, adult #one. Karl, please put a direct > link >>> to these birds. Mine doesn't always work. >>> www.pbase.com/karlbardon/duluthsuperior_gulls_20112012 >>> >>> There are solid records of nominate glaucoides in Ontario including a >>> specimen of a winter adult from Ottawa. >>> http://www.jeaniron.ca/2010/icelandgullRF.pdf >>> >>> I recommend that everyone read BNA 699 for the best information (peer >>> reviewed) available about the Iceland and Thayer's Gull complex. The BNA >>> series is available online from Cornell for a cost and worth every > penny: >>> http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/bna >>> >>> Ron Pittaway, >>> Minden, Ontario >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> >>> Change is in the Air - Smoking in Designated Areas Only in > effect. >>> Tobacco-Free Campus as of July 1, 2012. >>> >>> >>> Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa? > SUBED1=birdwg01 >>> >>> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html >> >> >>Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa? > SUBED1=birdwg01 >> >>Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html >>======================================================================== > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Northern and southern Herring Gulls - Great Lakes From: David Sibley <david_sibley AT COMCAST.NET> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 20:18:57 -0500 After reading the discussion about geographic variation in adult Herring Gulls, and seeing only a couple of mentions of variation in immatures, I took the time to go back to some of my notes and photos from Cape May in the late 1990s. Looking at relatively small numbers of first-winter Herring Gulls there I was able to distinguish a very elegant-looking, pale, neatly patterned type that held juvenal plumage well into the winter. I was convinced that these were from a different population, since they were quite distinctive in plumage, shape, and molt, and only appeared late in the fall and in the coldest months, in very small numbers. I was never able to follow up on this adequately, so I can't add any more to what I observed 14 years ago, but I've scanned the best examples from my photos and written about it at my blog here http://www.sibleyguides.com/2012/02/variation-in-immature-american-herring-gulls/ Looking for these two types at other places around the northeast and across the continent should reveal some interesting patterns. As others have made clear there is still a lot to learn about Herring Gulls. David Sibley Concord, MA sibleyguides AT gmail.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN From: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao AT COASTSIDE.NET> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 16:30:50 -0800 Shai, Nothing to do with your argument, which I am enjoying reading. However the Yellow-rumped complex is complex! It turns out that the data suggests that Audubon's may in fact be a lineage coming from hybrid origin (Myrtle x one of the southern forms or an earlier version of the southern forms). Currently Audubon's is genetically closer to Myrtle than either is to nigrifrons or Goldman's, perhaps due to more recent introgression? So although the exterior look of Goldman's and nigrifrons is more Audubon's like; Audubon's is more closely related to the different looking Myrtle. There are a couple of papers on this from the last few years - Borja Mila is the main author. Hopefully I did not mess up that story. Alvaro Alvaro Jaramillo chucao AT coastside.net Half Moon Bay, California Field Guides - Birding Tours Worldwide www.fieldguides.com -----Original Message----- From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Shaibal Mitra Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 3:52 PM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN Both Ron and Jim make great points in favor of the view that the Duluth bird is a vagrant bird from a glaucoides population, as opposed to a variant from a kumlieni population, and Amar states the operational considerations very nicely. I'm not sure that this bird is a glaucoides, but my point was not to argue that is isn't. Nor was my point to argue that subspecies can't be identified in the field; I believe that this is often possible, as long as it is done within the appropriate conceptual and quantitative framework. Both Ron and Jim know more about the latter for Iceland Gulls than I do, and it might be quite obvious to them that individuals resembling the Duluth bird occur so infrequently among Canadian breeders that vagrancy is a more reasonable interpretation for them. The point of my original post was quite different, namely to warn against typological conceptions of taxa. Canadian-breeding Iceland Gulls that happen to be pale are not necessarily more related (demographically or genetically) to Greenland breeders, and Canadian-breeding Iceland Gulls that happen to be dark are not necessarily more related (demographically or genetically) to Thayer's Gulls. Hybridization/introgression/gene flow is one possible interpretation of the variability among Kumlien's Gulls, but it is not the only one. To my knowledge, the role of gene flow, as opposed to, for instance, natural selection, has not been established here by any empirical studies, Snell's work included. It is true that there are examples of continua that can be shown to have been caused by gene flow (e.g., "Olympic Gull"), but there are also innumerable examples that are clearly caused by natural selection (e.g., north-south series of parulid warblers, like Northern Parula to nigrilora Tropical Parula to pacifica Tropical Parula, or graciae Grace's Warbler to decora Grace's Warbler to Adelaide's Warbler, or auduboni Audubon's Warbler to nigrifrons Audubon's Warbler to Goldman's Warbler). My claim that kumlieni is thought to refer to a cohesive group of populations is based on the fact that it is a named subspecies. In situations where known hybrid populations (e.g., "Olympic Gull") demonstrably do NOT cohere to one another any more than they do to those of the hybridizing taxa (e.g., Glaucous-winged Gull and Western Gull), these hybrids are not named as taxa. Furthermore, I think that the existence of Greenland-breeding glaucoides with pigmented wingtips and other variant features actually illustrates this point rather well. It shows that individuals of this appearance that might be seen in Iceland in winter should NOT reflexively be identified as kumlieni. The existence of these variants implies that, at least in theory, natural selection and/or genetic drift could reshape Greenland breeders toward a dark-mantled, dark-eyed, dark-wingtipped phenotype at some point in the future. If this were to happen, these birds would NOT be Thayer's Gulls! Shai Mitra Bay Shore ________________________________ Change is in the Air - Smoking in Designated Areas Only in effect. Tobacco-Free Campus as of July 1, 2012. Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN From: "Tangren, Gerald Vernon" <tangren AT WSU.EDU> Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 00:10:10 +0000 Unless the whole complex is mediated by a very limited number of genes, which in the current case may very well be true. On 2/3/12 3:52 PM, "Shaibal Mitra" wrote: ... If this were to happen, these birds would NOT be Thayer's Gulls! > > Shai Mitra > Bay Shore > > ________________________________ > > Change is in the Air - Smoking in Designated Areas Only in > effect. > Tobacco-Free Campus as of July 1, 2012. > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html -- Jerry WA State University-Tree Fruit Research & Extension Center Wenatchee, WA 509-663-8181 x 231 USDA Cold Hardiness Zone 6b (during the current phase of the Pacific Decadal Oscillation) http://www.tfrec.wsu.edu/pages/webdev/Favorites "May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view" Edward Abbey Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN From: Shaibal Mitra <Shaibal.Mitra AT CSI.CUNY.EDU> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 23:52:19 +0000 Both Ron and Jim make great points in favor of the view that the Duluth bird is a vagrant bird from a glaucoides population, as opposed to a variant from a kumlieni population, and Amar states the operational considerations very nicely. I'm not sure that this bird is a glaucoides, but my point was not to argue that is isn't. Nor was my point to argue that subspecies can't be identified in the field; I believe that this is often possible, as long as it is done within the appropriate conceptual and quantitative framework. Both Ron and Jim know more about the latter for Iceland Gulls than I do, and it might be quite obvious to them that individuals resembling the Duluth bird occur so infrequently among Canadian breeders that vagrancy is a more reasonable interpretation for them. The point of my original post was quite different, namely to warn against typological conceptions of taxa. Canadian-breeding Iceland Gulls that happen to be pale are not necessarily more related (demographically or genetically) to Greenland breeders, and Canadian-breeding Iceland Gulls that happen to be dark are not necessarily more related (demographically or genetically) to Thayer's Gulls. Hybridization/introgression/gene flow is one possible interpretation of the variability among Kumlien's Gulls, but it is not the only one. To my knowledge, the role of gene flow, as opposed to, for instance, natural selection, has not been established here by any empirical studies, Snell's work included. It is true that there are examples of continua that can be shown to have been caused by gene flow (e.g., "Olympic Gull"), but there are also innumerable examples that are clearly caused by natural selection (e.g., north-south series of parulid warblers, like Northern Parula to nigrilora Tropical Parula to pacifica Tropical Parula, or graciae Grace's Warbler to decora Grace's Warbler to Adelaide's Warbler, or auduboni Audubon's Warbler to nigrifrons Audubon's Warbler to Goldman's Warbler). My claim that kumlieni is thought to refer to a cohesive group of populations is based on the fact that it is a named subspecies. In situations where known hybrid populations (e.g., "Olympic Gull") demonstrably do NOT cohere to one another any more than they do to those of the hybridizing taxa (e.g., Glaucous-winged Gull and Western Gull), these hybrids are not named as taxa. Furthermore, I think that the existence of Greenland-breeding glaucoides with pigmented wingtips and other variant features actually illustrates this point rather well. It shows that individuals of this appearance that might be seen in Iceland in winter should NOT reflexively be identified as kumlieni. The existence of these variants implies that, at least in theory, natural selection and/or genetic drift could reshape Greenland breeders toward a dark-mantled, dark-eyed, dark-wingtipped phenotype at some point in the future. If this were to happen, these birds would NOT be Thayer's Gulls! Shai Mitra Bay Shore ________________________________ Change is in the Air - Smoking in Designated Areas Only in effect. Tobacco-Free Campus as of July 1, 2012. Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN From: Amar_Ayyash <amarayyash AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 16:41:32 -0700 James and all - I was recently talking to a birder from New Jersey who serves on the records committee there, and I was quite impressed by his requirements for endorsing a probable nominate adult glaucoides. I'm sure records comittees from differing states/provinces have their own expectations for this taxon, but I would hope all were uncompromising. I don't have any problem with keeping open the possibility of a stray glaucoides (I think it would be imprudent not to), but I also don't have a problem with leaving them as "not safely distinguishable" unless certain criteria are met. Hence, a "Kumlien's until proven otherwise" attitude should indeed be the message we'd want to send for now. I imagine that discussions like this one can easily influence popular thought among some birders and I think caution needs to be taken. I've found several examples in the Great Lakes region where birding literature is misguided and often gives the impression that Kumlien's is "the more common" Iceland Gull, leaving folks with the impression that it's "uncommon" to stumble upon a glaucoides, but still within reasonable reach. One author went as far as saying, "Most Icelands seen in *state's name deleted* are Kumlien's". Interestingly, that state has no verifiable records of nominate glaucoides. Kind regards, Amar Ayyash Frankfort, IL On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 15:46:45 -0500, James Pawlicki wrote: >All- > >A quick thought I would like to bring up regarding these “glaucoides” >individuals (and adults strictly speaking) in NE N. America and the >Great Lakes region: > >If these individuals showing a full (by full I mean “mini-Glaucous >Gull”) suite of glaucoides traits are presumably occurring within the >same colonies and even the same broods as birds showing mixed >light/dark traits (ie. what we currently classify as kumlieni), then >why the rarity of these full suite glaucoides in areas where numerous >kumlieni winter. From an eastern Great Lakes/Niagara River >perspective, we see small numbers of individuals that are full suite >thayeri, many birds that are classified as pale thayeri/dark kumlieni, >large numbers of typical (and variable) kumlieni, small numbers of >pale (but still showing some mixed traits) kumlieni, and very, very >rarely individuals that have an absolutely full suite of glaucoides >traits like the Duluth bird. In my mind I see this rarity in itself as >making a substantial case for vagrancy by glaucoides. > >Apart from the actual genetics involved and dealing only with >populations, the big question in this case is how frequent are >individuals showing a full suite of glaucoides traits in kumlieni >breeding colonies? Are they common, rare, or extremely rare?  Until >that question can be answered with some degree of confidence, I see no >reason why these individuals should be viewed exclusively as “kumlieni >until proven otherwise.” > >Jim Pawlicki >Buffalo, NY USA > > > >On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 1:49 PM, Shaibal Mitra > wrote: >> >> This pale, petite Iceland Gull is very interesting (and attractive!) but I don't agree with Ron's interpretation of the genetics and taxonomy involved >> >> Taxa are not defined by phenotypic characters--nor even by genetic ones- -but rather as demographically cohesive groups of populations, whose members can often be RECOGNIZED by characters or sets of characters. >> >> Kumlieni refers to a group of populations of Iceland Gulls breeding in Canada which are believed to be relatively cohesive demographically. That is, they are believed to be much more likely to exchange dispersing individuals amongst themselves than between themselves and populations breeding in Greenland (or between themselves and populations of Thayer's Gulls). Within any population of kumlieni, there is likely to be considerable variation in wingtip pigmentation, bill size, etc.--even within a brood of siblings whose parents, grandparents, and great grandparents all lived and died as run of the mill kumlieni. Clearly, a lightly pigmented individual of this sort is in no way more RELATED to glaucoides than is its more heavily pigmented sibling, nor is the darker bird somehow related to thayeri. These individuals might be more or less difficult to DISTINGUISH from individuals of those other taxa, but they are kith and kin to each other and to generations of Kumlien's Gulls. >> >> If two very pale, small-billed Kumlien's Gulls happened to pair, and if one of their offspring happened to closely resemble typical birds from Greenland-breeding populations, this bird would not "be" an example of glaucoides; it would be an example of kumlieni impossible to distinguish (visually) from glaucoides. Ditto for dark Kumlien's Gulls in relation to Thayer's Gull. >> >> This distinction is not just semantics; it is also conceptually useful for thinking about the broader challenges of taxonomy and identification. Given the undoubted existence of variation among run of the mill Canadian- breeding Iceland Gulls, it is perfectly plausible that characters such as pigmentation might evolve slightly over time within these populations, via natural selection or genetic drift. This could (and probably does) happen without the need for any gene flow whatsoever from other taxa (e.g., thayeri or glaucoides). >> >> Identifying glaucoides in North America involves making a case for vagrancy from a population of glaucoides, vs. a more or less unusual variant from a population of kumlieni. Short of band recoveries or multiple genetic markers, this process would begin with rigorously quantifying the frequency of pale, small-billed individuals in Canadian- breeding populations. >> >> Shai Mitra >> Bay Shore, NY >> ________________________________________ >> From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] on behalf of Jean Iron [jeaniron AT SYMPATICO.CA] >> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 12:25 PM >> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU >> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN >> >> There is a continuum from darkest thayeri through kumlieni to glaucoides >> (Snell in Birds of North America (BNA) no. 699, 2002). I've seen many >> individuals that are essentially glaucoides but they have slight >> pigmentation in the primaries. These are by definition kumlieni but to my >> mind are genetically mostly glaucioides. Karl Bardon's bird in the link >> below shows no evidence of kumlieni. It falls inside the line for nominate >> glaucoides and meets the criteria for a winter adult by its combination of >> immaculate primary tips, small size, small bill, very pale Glaucous-like >> mantle, clear yellow eyes, and pale spotting on the head and nape. This bird >> is as certain as we can be in identifying most subspecies in the field. >> >> See 8 photos under Iceland Gull, adult #one. Karl, please put a direct link >> to these birds. Mine doesn't always work. >> www.pbase.com/karlbardon/duluthsuperior_gulls_20112012 >> >> There are solid records of nominate glaucoides in Ontario including a >> specimen of a winter adult from Ottawa. >> http://www.jeaniron.ca/2010/icelandgullRF.pdf >> >> I recommend that everyone read BNA 699 for the best information (peer >> reviewed) available about the Iceland and Thayer's Gull complex. The BNA >> series is available online from Cornell for a cost and worth every penny: >> http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/bna >> >> Ron Pittaway, >> Minden, Ontario >> >> >> ________________________________ >> >> Change is in the Air - Smoking in Designated Areas Only in effect. >> Tobacco-Free Campus as of July 1, 2012. >> >> >> Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa? SUBED1=birdwg01 >> >> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > > >Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa? SUBED1=birdwg01 > >Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html >======================================================================== Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Herring gulls From: "Anthony J.Lauro" <tonpat AT OPTONLINE.NET> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 16:59:06 -0800 Jonathan Dwight is said to have stated: "They are all herring gulls". I never quite understood what he meant. Now I know. Tony Lauro Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Northern and southern Herring Gulls - Great Lakes From: "Kevin J. McGowan" <kjm2 AT CORNELL.EDU> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 21:22:46 +0000 I just looked at photos from a half-hour of gull watching this morning here in central New York, and found 40 of 68 adult Herring Gulls had an obvious mirror on P9. Kevin Kevin J. McGowan Ithaca, NY kjm2 AT cornell.edu 607-254-2452 -----Original Message----- From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Karl Bardon Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 2:41 PM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Northern and southern Herring Gulls - Great Lakes ... Of 141 photos of adult Herring Gulls from Duluth, all but one had a complete subterminal bar on P10, only 24 had a mirror on P9 (usually small), and only 6 had the P9 mirror joined with the gray basal tongue- but the sample is heavily weighed towards paler patterns since I am much more likely to photograph an unusual wing pattern Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN From: James Pawlicki <jmpawli10 AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 15:46:45 -0500 All- A quick thought I would like to bring up regarding these “glaucoides” individuals (and adults strictly speaking) in NE N. America and the Great Lakes region: If these individuals showing a full (by full I mean “mini-Glaucous Gull”) suite of glaucoides traits are presumably occurring within the same colonies and even the same broods as birds showing mixed light/dark traits (ie. what we currently classify as kumlieni), then why the rarity of these full suite glaucoides in areas where numerous kumlieni winter. From an eastern Great Lakes/Niagara River perspective, we see small numbers of individuals that are full suite thayeri, many birds that are classified as pale thayeri/dark kumlieni, large numbers of typical (and variable) kumlieni, small numbers of pale (but still showing some mixed traits) kumlieni, and very, very rarely individuals that have an absolutely full suite of glaucoides traits like the Duluth bird. In my mind I see this rarity in itself as making a substantial case for vagrancy by glaucoides. Apart from the actual genetics involved and dealing only with populations, the big question in this case is how frequent are individuals showing a full suite of glaucoides traits in kumlieni breeding colonies? Are they common, rare, or extremely rare?  Until that question can be answered with some degree of confidence, I see no reason why these individuals should be viewed exclusively as “kumlieni until proven otherwise.” Jim Pawlicki Buffalo, NY USA On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 1:49 PM, Shaibal Mitra wrote: > > This pale, petite Iceland Gull is very interesting (and attractive!) but I don't agree with Ron's interpretation of the genetics and taxonomy involved > > Taxa are not defined by phenotypic characters--nor even by genetic ones--but rather as demographically cohesive groups of populations, whose members can often be RECOGNIZED by characters or sets of characters. > > Kumlieni refers to a group of populations of Iceland Gulls breeding in Canada which are believed to be relatively cohesive demographically. That is, they are believed to be much more likely to exchange dispersing individuals amongst themselves than between themselves and populations breeding in Greenland (or between themselves and populations of Thayer's Gulls). Within any population of kumlieni, there is likely to be considerable variation in wingtip pigmentation, bill size, etc.--even within a brood of siblings whose parents, grandparents, and great grandparents all lived and died as run of the mill kumlieni. Clearly, a lightly pigmented individual of this sort is in no way more RELATED to glaucoides than is its more heavily pigmented sibling, nor is the darker bird somehow related to thayeri. These individuals might be more or less difficult to DISTINGUISH from individuals of those other taxa, but they are kith and kin to each other and to generations of Kumlien's Gulls. > > If two very pale, small-billed Kumlien's Gulls happened to pair, and if one of their offspring happened to closely resemble typical birds from Greenland-breeding populations, this bird would not "be" an example of glaucoides; it would be an example of kumlieni impossible to distinguish (visually) from glaucoides. Ditto for dark Kumlien's Gulls in relation to Thayer's Gull. > > This distinction is not just semantics; it is also conceptually useful for thinking about the broader challenges of taxonomy and identification. Given the undoubted existence of variation among run of the mill Canadian-breeding Iceland Gulls, it is perfectly plausible that characters such as pigmentation might evolve slightly over time within these populations, via natural selection or genetic drift. This could (and probably does) happen without the need for any gene flow whatsoever from other taxa (e.g., thayeri or glaucoides). > > Identifying glaucoides in North America involves making a case for vagrancy from a population of glaucoides, vs. a more or less unusual variant from a population of kumlieni. Short of band recoveries or multiple genetic markers, this process would begin with rigorously quantifying the frequency of pale, small-billed individuals in Canadian-breeding populations. > > Shai Mitra > Bay Shore, NY > ________________________________________ > From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] on behalf of Jean Iron [jeaniron AT SYMPATICO.CA] > Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 12:25 PM > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU > Subject: [BIRDWG01] Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN > > There is a continuum from darkest thayeri through kumlieni to glaucoides > (Snell in Birds of North America (BNA) no. 699, 2002). I've seen many > individuals that are essentially glaucoides but they have slight > pigmentation in the primaries. These are by definition kumlieni but to my > mind are genetically mostly glaucioides. Karl Bardon's bird in the link > below shows no evidence of kumlieni. It falls inside the line for nominate > glaucoides and meets the criteria for a winter adult by its combination of > immaculate primary tips, small size, small bill, very pale Glaucous-like > mantle, clear yellow eyes, and pale spotting on the head and nape. This bird > is as certain as we can be in identifying most subspecies in the field. > > See 8 photos under Iceland Gull, adult #one. Karl, please put a direct link > to these birds. Mine doesn't always work. > www.pbase.com/karlbardon/duluthsuperior_gulls_20112012 > > There are solid records of nominate glaucoides in Ontario including a > specimen of a winter adult from Ottawa. > http://www.jeaniron.ca/2010/icelandgullRF.pdf > > I recommend that everyone read BNA 699 for the best information (peer > reviewed) available about the Iceland and Thayer's Gull complex. The BNA > series is available online from Cornell for a cost and worth every penny: > http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/bna > > Ron Pittaway, > Minden, Ontario > > > ________________________________ > > Change is in the Air - Smoking in Designated Areas Only in effect. > Tobacco-Free Campus as of July 1, 2012. > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN From: Jean Iron <jeaniron AT SYMPATICO.CA> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 15:45:06 -0500 Shai assumes that kumlieni is distinct which Snell and others reject. I also reject Shai's statement that "Kumlieni refers to a group of populations of Iceland Gulls breeding in Canada which are believed to be relatively cohesive demographically." Who said this? Where is it published? Snell and Godfrey (1991) reported their findings at the AOU meeting in Montreal. They said: "Iceland Gulls (Larus glaucoides) form a poorly understood and taxonomically controversial species complex. We analysed patterns of geographic variation among 317 museum specimens of adults collected throughout the breeding range of Greenland to Banks Island in the western Canadian arctic archipelago. Although east-west clinal increases in degree of mantle melanism, primary feather melanism, primary pattern score, and bill size are significant, there is substantial overlap in all characters among geographic regions. There is no evidence that any of the three subspecies (L.g. glaucoides, L.g. kumlieni, and L.g. thayeri) are morphologically discrete. Type specimens of kumlieni and thayeri (the type of nominate glaucoides is not extant) are simply points within clinal continua, rather than exemplars of differentiated groups". Also, there are birds breeding in Greenland (defined as the range of glaucioides) with pigmentation in the wingtips. See Figure 3 on page 10 in BNA 699. Finally, there is a specimen of glaucoides from Ontario identified by Godfrey in the Canadian Museum of Nature confirming vagrancy. Greenland is very close to North America. To assume that individuals from the huge glaucoides population there don't venture to nearby North America seems strange when we on ID-Frontiers know that gulls from throughout the Holarctic wander extensively. If Shai wants to take his position, then forget about identifying any subspecies unless you're on the breeding grounds. If nominate glaucoides isn't identifiable, we shouldn't be identifying Thayer's Gulls in the East in winter. The point about subspecies ID is that many are recognizable with a high degree of confidence when multiple characters fit - such as the nominate glaucoides from Lake Superior. Ron Pittaway Minden ON -----Original Message----- From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Shaibal Mitra Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 1:50 PM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN This pale, petite Iceland Gull is very interesting (and attractive!) but I don't agree with Ron's interpretation of the genetics and taxonomy involved Taxa are not defined by phenotypic characters--nor even by genetic ones--but rather as demographically cohesive groups of populations, whose members can often be RECOGNIZED by characters or sets of characters. Kumlieni refers to a group of populations of Iceland Gulls breeding in Canada which are believed to be relatively cohesive demographically. That is, they are believed to be much more likely to exchange dispersing individuals amongst themselves than between themselves and populations breeding in Greenland (or between themselves and populations of Thayer's Gulls). Within any population of kumlieni, there is likely to be considerable variation in wingtip pigmentation, bill size, etc.--even within a brood of siblings whose parents, grandparents, and great grandparents all lived and died as run of the mill kumlieni. Clearly, a lightly pigmented individual of this sort is in no way more RELATED to glaucoides than is its more heavily pigmented sibling, nor is the darker bird somehow related to thayeri. These individuals might be more or less difficult to DISTINGUISH from individuals of those other taxa, but they are kith and kin to each other and to generations of Kumlien's Gulls. If two very pale, small-billed Kumlien's Gulls happened to pair, and if one of their offspring happened to closely resemble typical birds from Greenland-breeding populations, this bird would not "be" an example of glaucoides; it would be an example of kumlieni impossible to distinguish (visually) from glaucoides. Ditto for dark Kumlien's Gulls in relation to Thayer's Gull. This distinction is not just semantics; it is also conceptually useful for thinking about the broader challenges of taxonomy and identification. Given the undoubted existence of variation among run of the mill Canadian-breeding Iceland Gulls, it is perfectly plausible that characters such as pigmentation might evolve slightly over time within these populations, via natural selection or genetic drift. This could (and probably does) happen without the need for any gene flow whatsoever from other taxa (e.g., thayeri or glaucoides). Identifying glaucoides in North America involves making a case for vagrancy from a population of glaucoides, vs. a more or less unusual variant from a population of kumlieni. Short of band recoveries or multiple genetic markers, this process would begin with rigorously quantifying the frequency of pale, small-billed individuals in Canadian-breeding populations. Shai Mitra Bay Shore, NY ________________________________________ From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] on behalf of Jean Iron [jeaniron AT SYMPATICO.CA] Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 12:25 PM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: [BIRDWG01] Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN There is a continuum from darkest thayeri through kumlieni to glaucoides (Snell in Birds of North America (BNA) no. 699, 2002). I've seen many individuals that are essentially glaucoides but they have slight pigmentation in the primaries. These are by definition kumlieni but to my mind are genetically mostly glaucioides. Karl Bardon's bird in the link below shows no evidence of kumlieni. It falls inside the line for nominate glaucoides and meets the criteria for a winter adult by its combination of immaculate primary tips, small size, small bill, very pale Glaucous-like mantle, clear yellow eyes, and pale spotting on the head and nape. This bird is as certain as we can be in identifying most subspecies in the field. See 8 photos under Iceland Gull, adult #one. Karl, please put a direct link to these birds. Mine doesn't always work. www.pbase.com/karlbardon/duluthsuperior_gulls_20112012 There are solid records of nominate glaucoides in Ontario including a specimen of a winter adult from Ottawa. http://www.jeaniron.ca/2010/icelandgullRF.pdf I recommend that everyone read BNA 699 for the best information (peer reviewed) available about the Iceland and Thayer's Gull complex. The BNA series is available online from Cornell for a cost and worth every penny: http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/bna Ron Pittaway, Minden, Ontario ________________________________ Change is in the Air - Smoking in Designated Areas Only in effect. Tobacco-Free Campus as of July 1, 2012. Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Northern and southern Herring Gulls - Great Lakes From: Wayne Hoffman <whoffman AT PEAK.ORG> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 11:52:51 -0800 Hi - This discussion of variation within American Herring Gulls is enlightening and needed. The message I see to take home from it is that among large gulls (and many other "difficult" bird groups) within-population variation overlaps the supposed between-population distinctions we use to identify vagrants. Back in the unenlightened old days when Herring Gulls were a circumpolar species with populations varying in eye colors, foot colors, mantle colors, etc., as a group they may have been more distinguishable from other groups of large gulls. These days, as we try to subdivide large gulls into more and more "species" and to recognize them as vagrants, we will run into more and more instances of individuals that have the external characters of one population but are in fact members of a different population. This discussion has been about ADULT Herring Gulls from the Great Lakes, Newfoundland, etc. With immatures, we also have to deal with within-population variation in molt timing and completeness, appearance changes resulting from differential wear, soft parts appearance anomalies related to hormonal condition and nutritional state, and so on, so the opportunities for individuals to mimic the appearance of birds from different populations or species are multiplied. Bottom Line: Some individual large gulls are not what they appear to be, and if we put names on all of them, we will sometimes be wrong. I personally get much less aggressive about trying to identify immature large gulls between January and July, because of the confounding effects of feather wear, and the frequent effects of compromised health in gulls attempting to live outside their normal range. This issue is well-known for other groups of animals. Back in the 1970s, when I first learned to identify western salamanders, the then-recognized species were pretty much recognizable by morphology. Since then, several of these "species" have been recognized to be 2 or more species very difficult to distinguish without direct examination of DNA. This is the case with Rhyacotriton, Dicamptodon, Aneides "ferreus", Batrachoceps, etc. In the east the "Slimy Salamander" used to an easily identifiable species, Plethodon "glutinosus." Now it is understood to be a swarm of cryptic species, generally not distinguishable by external characters. Similar things have happened among some western squirrels. "Townsend's Chipmunk" as i learned it, is now a several species, and "Townsend's Ground Squirrel" is a cluster of species that field guides offer no suggestions for field identification other than range. In this last case, the older techniques for looking at the genetics suffice: the ground squirrel species can be distinguished by karyotyping - you don't actually have to sequence the DNA! In these amphibian and mammal examples, most of the newly recognized cryptic species have allopatric or parapatric distributions, but of course that clue is not very useful for distinguishing wintering gulls, basically only helpful for setting null hypotheses. Wayne Hoffman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amar_Ayyash" To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2012 12:28:26 PM Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Northern and southern Herring Gulls - Great Lakes Karl- It's interesting to get a Lake Superior perspective on what adult Herrings look like there. Sounds very similar to southern Lake Michigan. One thing I've started to do with Herrings that show a mirror on P9 is look at the underside of the primaries. Is it possible that we're overlooking birds with tongues that bleed into the mirror on P9 because of the way the primaries are held? That is, for any given point in time, the inner web of P9 may be covered sufficiently enough by P8 to where we don't see this pattern (take your photos for instance - some show the Thayer's-like inner web on P9 and some don't). I think a simple remedy is to study the underside of the primary tips on birds exhibiting a mirror on P9. As for the adult Iceland with no pigmentation to the wingtips, you'd think that's about as good as it gets. But. Birders on Lake Michigan have set such a high standard that we would leave that bird a Kumlien's without direct side-by-sides with a Glaucous or multiple Kumlien's. Check out Dave Brown's latest blog post on this topic if you haven't already: http://birdingnewfoundland.blogspot.com/2011/12/some-thoughts-on- separation-of-white.html Does anyone else get the impression that the 1st cycle Herring has some LBBG influence? Thanks, Amar Ayyash Frankfort, Illinois Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN From: Shaibal Mitra <Shaibal.Mitra AT CSI.CUNY.EDU> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 18:49:38 +0000 This pale, petite Iceland Gull is very interesting (and attractive!) but I don't agree with Ron's interpretation of the genetics and taxonomy involved Taxa are not defined by phenotypic characters--nor even by genetic ones--but rather as demographically cohesive groups of populations, whose members can often be RECOGNIZED by characters or sets of characters. Kumlieni refers to a group of populations of Iceland Gulls breeding in Canada which are believed to be relatively cohesive demographically. That is, they are believed to be much more likely to exchange dispersing individuals amongst themselves than between themselves and populations breeding in Greenland (or between themselves and populations of Thayer's Gulls). Within any population of kumlieni, there is likely to be considerable variation in wingtip pigmentation, bill size, etc.--even within a brood of siblings whose parents, grandparents, and great grandparents all lived and died as run of the mill kumlieni. Clearly, a lightly pigmented individual of this sort is in no way more RELATED to glaucoides than is its more heavily pigmented sibling, nor is the darker bird somehow related to thayeri. These individuals might be more or less difficult to DISTINGUISH from individuals of those other taxa, but they are kith and kin to each other and to generations of Kumlien's Gulls. If two very pale, small-billed Kumlien's Gulls happened to pair, and if one of their offspring happened to closely resemble typical birds from Greenland-breeding populations, this bird would not "be" an example of glaucoides; it would be an example of kumlieni impossible to distinguish (visually) from glaucoides. Ditto for dark Kumlien's Gulls in relation to Thayer's Gull. This distinction is not just semantics; it is also conceptually useful for thinking about the broader challenges of taxonomy and identification. Given the undoubted existence of variation among run of the mill Canadian-breeding Iceland Gulls, it is perfectly plausible that characters such as pigmentation might evolve slightly over time within these populations, via natural selection or genetic drift. This could (and probably does) happen without the need for any gene flow whatsoever from other taxa (e.g., thayeri or glaucoides). Identifying glaucoides in North America involves making a case for vagrancy from a population of glaucoides, vs. a more or less unusual variant from a population of kumlieni. Short of band recoveries or multiple genetic markers, this process would begin with rigorously quantifying the frequency of pale, small-billed individuals in Canadian-breeding populations. Shai Mitra Bay Shore, NY ________________________________________ From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] on behalf of Jean Iron [jeaniron AT SYMPATICO.CA] Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 12:25 PM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: [BIRDWG01] Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN There is a continuum from darkest thayeri through kumlieni to glaucoides (Snell in Birds of North America (BNA) no. 699, 2002). I've seen many individuals that are essentially glaucoides but they have slight pigmentation in the primaries. These are by definition kumlieni but to my mind are genetically mostly glaucioides. Karl Bardon's bird in the link below shows no evidence of kumlieni. It falls inside the line for nominate glaucoides and meets the criteria for a winter adult by its combination of immaculate primary tips, small size, small bill, very pale Glaucous-like mantle, clear yellow eyes, and pale spotting on the head and nape. This bird is as certain as we can be in identifying most subspecies in the field. See 8 photos under Iceland Gull, adult #one. Karl, please put a direct link to these birds. Mine doesn't always work. www.pbase.com/karlbardon/duluthsuperior_gulls_20112012 There are solid records of nominate glaucoides in Ontario including a specimen of a winter adult from Ottawa. http://www.jeaniron.ca/2010/icelandgullRF.pdf I recommend that everyone read BNA 699 for the best information (peer reviewed) available about the Iceland and Thayer's Gull complex. The BNA series is available online from Cornell for a cost and worth every penny: http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/bna Ron Pittaway, Minden, Ontario ________________________________ Change is in the Air - Smoking in Designated Areas Only in effect. Tobacco-Free Campus as of July 1, 2012. Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Nominate glaucoides in Duluth MN From: Jean Iron <jeaniron AT SYMPATICO.CA> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 12:25:33 -0500 There is a continuum from darkest thayeri through kumlieni to glaucoides (Snell in Birds of North America (BNA) no. 699, 2002). I've seen many individuals that are essentially glaucoides but they have slight pigmentation in the primaries. These are by definition kumlieni but to my mind are genetically mostly glaucioides. Karl Bardon's bird in the link below shows no evidence of kumlieni. It falls inside the line for nominate glaucoides and meets the criteria for a winter adult by its combination of immaculate primary tips, small size, small bill, very pale Glaucous-like mantle, clear yellow eyes, and pale spotting on the head and nape. This bird is as certain as we can be in identifying most subspecies in the field. See 8 photos under Iceland Gull, adult #one. Karl, please put a direct link to these birds. Mine doesn't always work. www.pbase.com/karlbardon/duluthsuperior_gulls_20112012 There are solid records of nominate glaucoides in Ontario including a specimen of a winter adult from Ottawa. http://www.jeaniron.ca/2010/icelandgullRF.pdf I recommend that everyone read BNA 699 for the best information (peer reviewed) available about the Iceland and Thayer's Gull complex. The BNA series is available online from Cornell for a cost and worth every penny: http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/bna Ron Pittaway, Minden, Ontario -----Original Message----- From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Karl Bardon Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 2:41 PM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Northern and southern Herring Gulls - Great Lakes I recently photographed two adult Herring Gulls with reduced black in the outer primaries, especially ventrally, including a Thayer's-like pattern on P9 (gray tongue joins the white mirror on inner vane), but these two examples are not as extreme as the "northern" or Newfoundland type examples recently posted from Florida, Massachusetts, Chicago, or New York (for example, P10 has a complete subterminal bar on my two birds). Any Herring Gull with primaries paler than this would be exceptional here in Duluth. Of 141 photos of adult Herring Gulls from Duluth, all but one had a complete subterminal bar on P10, only 24 had a mirror on P9 (usually small), and only 6 had the P9 mirror joined with the gray basal tongue- but the sample is heavily weighed towards paler patterns since I am much more likely to photograph an unusual wing pattern- I would say paler Thayer's-like patterns are less than 1/1000 Herring Gulls here, but it's difficult to say whether these represent Northeastern types or just variation within Great Lakes birds (or even multiple generation backcross with Glaucous Gull or some other taxa). See http://www.pbase.com/karlbardon/herg_adult_reduced_primary_pattern I also photographed a first-cycle Herring Gull with a reduced tail pattern similar to the one recently posted from New York- I occasionally see first- cycle birds like this with tail bands more similar to Vega or European Herring Gulls, and have thought perhaps this is variation within pure smithsonianus, but in this case I am not sure how to rule out Vega. See http://www.pbase.com/karlbardon/herg_with_reduced_tail_band Finally, a recently well-photographed adult Iceland in Duluth appeared to be a nominate glaucoides- I realize subspecific identification may not be possible, but thought I would share nonetheless, since I have never seen such a classic potential for glaucoides around here. See www.pbase.com/karlbardon/duluthsuperior_gulls_20112012 under Iceland Gull, adult #one Comments on these birds are most welcome, Karl Bardon Duluth, MN Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Oriole in Wisconsin, July 2011 From: Ryan Brady <ryanbrady10 AT HOTMAIL.COM> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 09:37:17 -0700 This oriole was seen in southwest Wisconsin in July 2011. Orchard is obviously the expected species here but your comments in favor of that or another identification would be appreciated. Some backchannel inquiries have thus far produced mixed expert opinions. We're working on acquiring some other photos but this is the only one for now. http://www.pbase.com/rbrady/image/141272323 The original observer emailed the following: "The bird in the attached picture showed up at oriole feeding station during July 2011 drawn to orange marmelade. Stayed for about 3 weeks. Sightings were almost daily but the bird was typically by itself and appeared shy to both humans and other orioles. Bird appeared during the time last year when the Southwest US was experiencing wildfires, high winds and severe weather. At first, I thought it might be a juvenile male orchard oriole. However, the tail was black, the bill slightly curved, and the black chin markings were more pronounced and similar to a Hooded Oriole. None of the other orioles that we had been observing last summer, both Baltimore and Orchard, had any of the similar features or the bright yellow coloring." Ryan Brady Washburn, Bayfield County, WI http://www.pbase.com/rbrady Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Northern and southern Herring Gulls - Great Lakes From: dave brown <dave.browne AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 18:25:42 -0330 I'd certainly be intrigued if I saw this Iceland Gull in Newfoundland. The pure white primaries,combined with the lack of head streaking and unmarked iris would make the bird stand out. While it hard to get a handle on the mantle shade without comparison with other species, but this does have a pale look about it. One thing I've noticed from looking at photos of nominate glaucoides and a few individuals from here in Newfoundland is the apparent lack of contrast between the pale grey in the folded primaries, against the white wings and tertial skirt. Even the whitest winged Kumliens look more contrasty in this area because of the darker grey in the primaries (being very close to smithsonianus Herring Gull). Kumliens varies greatly in structure, as does glaucoides from what I can see, but we generally think of nominate glaucoides as being daintier looking with shorter bills and rounder heads, and this bird certainly has that look. The issue is, its probably possible for Kumliens to show completely white primary tips. Usually there will be a variable amount of grey visible on the outer web of p10 in the palest birds. Sometimes this can be so faint that it's not even visible in the field, so one has to be careful. This birds primary tips though, do appear to be pure white. The mantle shade is important. I don't know much about the variation in nominate glaucoides, but I can say that Kumliens are generally not that variable, with the vast majority of individuals being slightly paler than smithsonianus. Lately I'm noticing that there might be some that are very marginally darker or paler. If this birds mantle was in fact as pale as GLGU, that, in concert with the other features, such as the unmarked iris, pure white wing tips and overall dainty feel would build a strong case nominate glaucoides. While it might be possible for a Kumliens Gull to show one or two of these features,it would be very unlikely to have them all in the same individual. However, as Amar said, I'd want to see it next to a Kumliens or Herring Gull before I felt like making any definitive assertions. Cheers, Dave Brown Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Northern and southern Herring Gulls - Great Lakes From: Amar_Ayyash <amarayyash AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 13:28:26 -0700 Karl- It's interesting to get a Lake Superior perspective on what adult Herrings look like there. Sounds very similar to southern Lake Michigan. One thing I've started to do with Herrings that show a mirror on P9 is look at the underside of the primaries. Is it possible that we're overlooking birds with tongues that bleed into the mirror on P9 because of the way the primaries are held? That is, for any given point in time, the inner web of P9 may be covered sufficiently enough by P8 to where we don't see this pattern (take your photos for instance - some show the Thayer's-like inner web on P9 and some don't). I think a simple remedy is to study the underside of the primary tips on birds exhibiting a mirror on P9. As for the adult Iceland with no pigmentation to the wingtips, you'd think that's about as good as it gets. But. Birders on Lake Michigan have set such a high standard that we would leave that bird a Kumlien's without direct side-by-sides with a Glaucous or multiple Kumlien's. Check out Dave Brown's latest blog post on this topic if you haven't already: http://birdingnewfoundland.blogspot.com/2011/12/some-thoughts-on- separation-of-white.html Does anyone else get the impression that the 1st cycle Herring has some LBBG influence? Thanks, Amar Ayyash Frankfort, Illinois Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Northern and southern Herring Gulls - Great Lakes From: Karl Bardon <karl_bardon AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 12:41:07 -0700 I recently photographed two adult Herring Gulls with reduced black in the outer primaries, especially ventrally, including a Thayer’s-like pattern on P9 (gray tongue joins the white mirror on inner vane), but these two examples are not as extreme as the “northern” or Newfoundland type examples recently posted from Florida, Massachusetts, Chicago, or New York (for example, P10 has a complete subterminal bar on my two birds). Any Herring Gull with primaries paler than this would be exceptional here in Duluth. Of 141 photos of adult Herring Gulls from Duluth, all but one had a complete subterminal bar on P10, only 24 had a mirror on P9 (usually small), and only 6 had the P9 mirror joined with the gray basal tongue- but the sample is heavily weighed towards paler patterns since I am much more likely to photograph an unusual wing pattern- I would say paler Thayer’s-like patterns are less than 1/1000 Herring Gulls here, but it’s difficult to say whether these represent Northeastern types or just variation within Great Lakes birds (or even multiple generation backcross with Glaucous Gull or some other taxa). See http://www.pbase.com/karlbardon/herg_adult_reduced_primary_pattern I also photographed a first-cycle Herring Gull with a reduced tail pattern similar to the one recently posted from New York- I occasionally see first- cycle birds like this with tail bands more similar to Vega or European Herring Gulls, and have thought perhaps this is variation within pure smithsonianus, but in this case I am not sure how to rule out Vega. See http://www.pbase.com/karlbardon/herg_with_reduced_tail_band Finally, a recently well-photographed adult Iceland in Duluth appeared to be a nominate glaucoides- I realize subspecific identification may not be possible, but thought I would share nonetheless, since I have never seen such a classic potential for glaucoides around here. See www.pbase.com/karlbardon/duluthsuperior_gulls_20112012 under Iceland Gull, adult #one Comments on these birds are most welcome, Karl Bardon Duluth, MN Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Alameda Co., CA -- pale Slaty-backed Gull or dark Vega Gull? From: Lori Arthur <loriarthur61 AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 11:17:39 -0800 Hi. I'm Noah Arthur, a teenage larophile from Oakland, California, and I photographed a possible Slaty-backed/Vega type gull at Pacific Commons Park in Alameda Co., CA yesterday:  http://www.flickr.com/photos/73989529 AT N02/sets/72157629106017191/   I watched it at fairly close range through my scope while it bathed for about 5 minutes on a pond in the park. It was a large, dark-backed gull with a streaky head, staring pale eye, and bright reddish-pink orbital ring, suggesting Slaty-backed. In flight, it showed some pale tongue-tips on the primaries, similar to photo 25C.13 (Vega Gull) in Howell and Dunn's gull book. Unfortunately for Slaty-backed, the mantle looks too pale. It seemed to be only a little darker than surrounding Glaucous-winged Gulls and closely matched a Glaucous-winged/Western hybrid. At first, Vega Gull seemed like a possible alternative, but it looks a little too dark for a Vega. I'm confused by this one.   It has been suggested that this could be a Slaty-backed/Vega hybrid, but that seems unlikely in California. Another possiblity I'm considering is an unusual Glaucous-winged/Western hybrid, but I don't think that either G-winged or Western can have a bright reddish orbital ring. Or can they?   Pacific Commons Park in Fremont, Alameda Co., CA is located next to a landfill, and thousands of gulls bathe on the park's pond every day. The pond has produce rarities in the past: a Slaty-backed and a Lesser Black-backed were seen there last November.   Noah Arthur, Oakland, CA Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html