Birdingonthe.Net Recent Postings from Frontiers of Identification > Home > Mail > Alerts Updated on Thursday, March 18 at 01:16 AM ET The most recently received Mail is at the top.	Pectoral Sandpiper,©Tony Disley

18 Mar List archives (was: changing this listserv) [Eran Tomer ] 18 Mar Re: changing this listserv ["Lethaby, Nick" ] 18 Mar Re: changing this listserv [Robert Lewis ] 18 Mar Re: URL's posted on the list. [Matt Fraker ] 17 Mar Re: URL's posted on the list. [Ruben Deschamps ] 17 Mar Re: URL's posted on the list. [Greg Neise ] 17 Mar Listowner Message Part 2 [Will Russell ] 17 Mar Re: URL's posted on the list. [Laurie Larson ] 17 Mar Listowner Message [Will Russell ] 17 Mar Re: URL's posted on the list. [John Puschock ] 17 Mar Re: URL's posted on the list. [Greg Neise ] 17 Mar Re: URL's posted on the list. [Ruben Deschamps ] 17 Mar Re: URL's posted on the list. ["Matthew J. Stone" ] 17 Mar Re: URL's posted on the list. [Matthew Winks ] 17 Mar One more Junco photo ["R.D. Everhart" ] 16 Mar Re: Another Hybrid Puzzle [] 16 Mar Re: Another Hybrid Puzzle [Christian Nunes ] 16 Mar Re: URL's posted on the list. [] 16 Mar URL's posted on the list. [Barb Beck ] 16 Mar Re: Another Hybrid Puzzle [Kenn Kaufman ] 15 Mar Another Hybrid Puzzle ["R.D. Everhart" ] 15 Mar Re: URL for chickadee x titmoust [Cliff and Lisa Weisse ] 15 Mar Re: URL for chickadee x titmouse & ALL birds [Greg Neise ] 15 Mar Chickmouse photos [Doug Pratt ] 15 Mar URL for chickadee x titmouse & ALL birds [Robert O'Brien ] 15 Mar URL for chickadee x titmoust [Doug Pratt ] 14 Mar Re: Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse Hybrid [Sebastian Patti ] 14 Mar Re: Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse Hybrid [] 14 Mar Re: An interesting swallow in NS ["Norman D.van Swelm" ] 13 Mar Re: Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse Hybrid [Mark Stackhouse ] 13 Mar Re: Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse Hybrid [Matt Fraker ] 13 Mar Re: Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse Hybrid ["Allen T. Chartier" ] 13 Mar Re: Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse Hybrid [Mark Stackhouse ] 13 Mar Re: Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse Hybrid [Matthew Winks ] 13 Mar Re: Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse Hybrid [Cliff and Lisa Weisse ] 13 Mar Re: Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse Hybrid [Mark Stackhouse ] 13 Mar Re: Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse Hybrid ["Allen T. Chartier" ] 13 Mar Re: Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse Hybrid [Timothy Spahr ] 13 Mar Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse Hybrid [Matt Fraker ] 13 Mar The same Ross's Goose in Poland and in the Netherlands ? [Marcin Faber ] 12 Mar Plumage variation in Wilsonia pusilla [Alfred Adamo ] 8 Mar Belize_2010 [Jerry Oldenettel ] 8 Mar Re: An interesting swallow in NS [phil barnett ] 8 Mar Re: An interesting swallow in NS [phil barnett ] 7 Mar An interesting swallow in NS ["Ian A. McLaren" ] 7 Mar An interesting Barn Swallow in Nova Scotia ["Ian A. McLaren" ] 7 Mar Individuo de Vallarta [Ruben Deschamps ] 27 Feb Re: Vireo id [Kristie Nelson ] 26 Feb Re: Vireo id [Jim Pike ] 26 Feb Re: Vireo id [Steven Mlodinow ] 26 Feb Re: Vireo id [Matt Brady ] 26 Feb Re: Vireo id ["Allen T. Chartier" ] 26 Feb Re: Vireo id ["Lethaby, Nick" ] 26 Feb Re: Vireo id [Joseph Morlan ] 26 Feb Re: Vireo id [Matt Brady ] 26 Feb Re: Vireo id ["Allen T. Chartier" ] 26 Feb Re: Vireo id [Marcelo Brongo ] 26 Feb Vireo id [Marcelo Brongo ] 25 Feb Colllinsbirds.com [Ian Paulsen ] 24 Feb Re: Thoughts on Odd Canvasback plumage [Brian Schmidt ] 24 Feb Re: Apparent hybrid sandpiper in Thailand ["Lethaby, Nick" ] 24 Feb Re: Apparent hybrid sandpiper in Thailand [phil barnett ] 24 Feb Re: Apparent hybrid sandpiper in Thailand ["Lethaby, Nick" ] 24 Feb Re: Apparent hybrid sandpiper in Thailand [phil barnett ] 24 Feb Thoughts on Odd Canvasback plumage [Brian Schmidt ] 24 Feb Re: Indigo or Lazuli bunting [Kevin Karlson ] 23 Feb Re: Indigo or Lazuli? [Steven Mlodinow ] 23 Feb Re: Indigo or Lazuli? ["Lethaby, Nick" ] 23 Feb Re: Indigo or Lazuli? [Peter Pyle ] 23 Feb Re: Apparent hybrid sandpiper in Thailand [Julian Hough ] 23 Feb Apparent hybrid sandpiper in Thailand [David Sibley ] 23 Feb Re: Indigo or Lazuli? [] 22 Feb Re: Indigo or Lazuli? [Julian Hough ] 22 Feb Re: Indigo or Lazuli? [Joseph Morlan ] 22 Feb Re: Indigo or Lazuli? [] 21 Feb Re: Indigo or Lazuli? [Julian Hough ] Subject: List archives (was: changing this listserv) From: Eran Tomer <erantomer AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 02:06:39 -0400 All, ID Frontiers *does* have a very convenient, easy-to-use web archive and search interface: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Links are provided for each week's posts, dating back to 1995. The buttons on top of each screen allow different sorting and display options (place cursor over each button to see what it does). The link "Search the archives" is on top of the page and leads to the search screen: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=birdwg01 Every search box label is clickable for instructions on how to use it. The archives are a gold mine. Best regards, - Eran Tomer Atlanta, Georgia, USA On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 1:45 AM, Lethaby, Nick wrote: [snip] ...it isn’t easy to retrieve historical threads compared to say a yahoogroup and given the informational content of id-frontiers, that is an issue. I’m sure it can be done and at some point I’ll learn how to do it, but it would be nice it there was an intuitive web-based interface to it.. Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: changing this listserv From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 00:45:34 -0500 All: While I won't be complaining if things stay as they are, I agree with Greg that a number of activities are much harder than they should be because we are using listserv software. As Greg pointed out it isn't easy to retrieve historical threads compared to say a yahoogroup and given the informational content of id-frontiers, that is an issue. I'm sure it can be done and at some point I'll learn how to do it, but it would be nice it there was an intuitive web-based interface to it. I don't find that the occasional ads you get using Yahoogroups to be any inconvenience. While I think that it would be a big effort to migrate content to a new setting and that potential technical problems may preclude that, I don't agree with the "listserv is great" argument. I can hardly think of any recent discussion groups that have started up on listserv. I have also seen various problems with e-mail delivery on listserv-based groups such as OBOL, so this technology is hardly foolproof. Nick ________________________________ From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Robert Lewis Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 10:16 PM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] changing this listserv All: I think this thread has gotten way out of line, and has plunged into a very strange direction. I have been on this listserv since its inception, and while I do not post often here of late, I read most posts every day. There is northing wrong with the format here. There is no reason to make any changes to it. Thanks to Will Russell and all other who have worked on this litserv. Bob Lewis Sleepy Hollow NY On Mar 18, 2010, at 12:56 AM, Matt Fraker wrote: I guess I am just under the wire, Will, since it's 11:52pm where I am at. I want to start by saying that there should not be ANY birding listserve or forum more advanced than this one. This is the meeting place of the best plumage freaks and birding geeks of any listserve or internet access birding site available. You people are the best out there............. On 2010 03 17, at 9:15 PM, Greg Neise wrote: > ...... > Costs: My business is creating and running such sites. As with the > Illinois > Birders' Forum there will never be any cost to join or browse an ID > Frontiers forum, and in addition, I will be providing a photo-sharing > utility (similar to Flickr, but only for members of the forum) to host > images. Membership is not required to browse, but is required to > interact. > As with IBF, there will be products that are hand-picked for the > members of > the forum available via Amazon.com, and this helps defray the costs of > maintaining the site. > > .... Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: changing this listserv From: Robert Lewis <lewis AT BWAY.NET> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:16:21 -0400 All: I think this thread has gotten way out of line, and has plunged into a very strange direction. I have been on this listserv since its inception, and while I do not post often here of late, I read most posts every day. There is northing wrong with the format here. There is no reason to make any changes to it. Thanks to Will Russell and all other who have worked on this litserv. Bob Lewis Sleepy Hollow NY On Mar 18, 2010, at 12:56 AM, Matt Fraker wrote: > > I guess I am just under the wire, Will, since it's 11:52pm where I > am at. > > I want to start by saying that there should not be ANY birding > listserve or forum more advanced than this one. This is the meeting > place of the best plumage freaks and birding geeks of any listserve > or internet access birding site available. You people are the best > out there............. > > > > > On 2010 03 17, at 9:15 PM, Greg Neise wrote: > > > > ...... > > Costs: My business is creating and running such sites. As with the > > Illinois > > Birders' Forum there will never be any cost to join or browse an ID > > Frontiers forum, and in addition, I will be providing a photo- > sharing > > utility (similar to Flickr, but only for members of the forum) to > host > > images. Membership is not required to browse, but is required to > > interact. > > As with IBF, there will be products that are hand-picked for the > > members of > > the forum available via Amazon.com, and this helps defray the > costs of > > maintaining the site. > > > > .... Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: URL's posted on the list. From: Matt Fraker <frakerpovc AT AOL.COM> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 00:56:13 -0400 I guess I am just under the wire, Will, since it's 11:52pm where I am at. I want to start by saying that there should not be ANY birding listserve or forum more advanced than this one. This is the meeting place of the best plumage freaks and birding geeks of any listserve or internet access birding site available. You people are the best out there. What makes this discussion so uncomfortable is that to acknowledge faults or weaknesses of the current ID Frontiers is to hurt the people who have taken charge of this site. I'm pretty sure that nobody here means to offend or hurt Will Russell and the folks who run this site. This discussion requires that everyone involved strives to create the same goal -- the absolutely most top of the line, user friendly website that gives the talent of this place its fair measure. Does that mean a reworking of the current site? Does it mean the creation of a new site? I don't know that answer. I do know that the information that transpires on this location is almost always field guide worthy; I remember the Jaeger thread that took place within the last year -- incredibly educational. Somehow, everyone involved with this site should want to see and make happen a site that archives information by species or family group easily; a site where all of your information is IN the thread -- sighting descriptions, PHOTOS -- no more URL problems, link problems -- the photos are HERE. If you search "Jaegers", you don't have to link anything. All discussions and photographs are right in the threads that the search finds. This should be the penultimate birding website. I mean no offense to anyone. This discussion should not be a turf war. It should not be personal. It should be about making the best, most advanced website available to the immeasurable talent that uses it. Sorry for the group hug message. Remember that it started with my damn Paridae hybrid.... Matt Fraker Bloomington, Illinois -----Original Message----- From: Ruben Deschamps To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Wed, Mar 17, 2010 9:04 pm Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] URL's posted on the list. I think that for a tool to function for a community - it has to be as easy as possible :: it has to keep the good things it provided yesterday, the good ones it provides today and evolve to the ones that most probably will bring benefits tomorrow... I have seen communities that will not move from the simplicity of receiving everything in the same tool that they use all day - email... and we most not move from this simplicity... that is really a benefit of movility... not that I have to change my routine and go somewhere to find things, things most come to where I am... but this also does not block evolution to more efficient tools... it only asks to keep this simplicity of use... we have to reduce steps it takes to get the most - simplicity for the simple and more resources for the avid... we can have both Saludos from Northeast Mexico On 2010 03 17, at 9:15 PM, Greg Neise wrote: > Laurie, > > You bring up a lot of good points and I agree with pretty much > everything > you have said. > > Having almost single-handedly encouraged a birding mailing list of > 600-800 > to participate in a web-based community, I can say that it's not as > hard as > it is time consuming. It takes a while for some of your best > contributors to > participate...but they will. Web based forums have gotten to the point > where, if you can navigate your email application's in and out > boxes, you > can navigate and participate in a forum. > > Costs: My business is creating and running such sites. As with the > Illinois > Birders' Forum there will never be any cost to join or browse an ID > Frontiers forum, and in addition, I will be providing a photo-sharing > utility (similar to Flickr, but only for members of the forum) to host > images. Membership is not required to browse, but is required to > interact. > As with IBF, there will be products that are hand-picked for the > members of > the forum available via Amazon.com, and this helps defray the costs of > maintaining the site. > > The main reason that this idea gained traction in the first place > (among the > IDF members that I have discussed it with over the past year) is > that the > discussions that take place here are of great educational value, and > as it > is, are extremely difficult—if not impossible—to use via the current > email > archiving system. I propose (actually have already begun work on) a > system > to make the knowledge that is exchanged here much more accessible, > enjoyable > to browse and permanently archived. > > Cheers, > > -greg > > Greg Neise > > Illinois Birders' Forum > gregneise AT ilbirds.com > www.ilbirds.com > > In Plain Sight Communication > Photography | Web Presence > 1225 Oak Park Ave > Berwyn, IL 60402 > 708-484-5613 > greg.neise AT inplainsight.net > http://www.inplainsight.net > > ### > > On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:24:25 -0400, Laurie Larson > wrote: > >> Frontier-people, >> >> A few technical points, if you'll forgive me; given Will's desire >> to bring > this thread to a close I hope this will help clarify without causing > a lot > of debate. I'll be happy to "take it offline" if there are questions > inappropriate for the list, and I'm sure the many others on this > list who > have as much or more knowledge as I do will also be willing to help > if need be. >> >> I'm not a listowner here but I've helped run other Listserv-based >> lists > including Birdchat and Birdeast. Like those two, plus BirdWest, > BirdCntr, > BirdBand and the Arizona birding forum, Frontiers is a guest on the > University of Arizona's servers. The family of lists has paid Arizona > nothing for twenty years of use of the Listserv software or storage of > archives, and listowners try to minimize our requests for support by > their > staff. The Arizona lists are all configured to allow no graphical > attachments (although recent versions of Listserv do permit > configuring a > list with associated file archives or some types of attachments). > This was > originally because of space considerations when storage was very > expensive. >> >> The e-mail based Listserv software is old-fashioned, but robust; >> people can > join and participate, almost without regard to the platform, OS, > network > speed, or mail software available to them. The problem of sharing > images > has been dealt with by requiring the participant (the poster) to > host the > graphical image on their own web or file space, rather than putting > the > burden on the Arizona Listserver. In some cases this is difficult > for some > participants, or may be confusing because of the variety of links and > technologies. But it has worked fairly well and, by the way, it's > free -- or > more accurately, the costs are shared by everyone who posts images. >> >> Web based forums, while more modern and more graphically >> sophisticated, are > not always as universally accessible as e-mail. Technically it isn't > easy to > move a whole mailing list community to a different host or a different > format. Finally, a web-based system may carry a cost that has to be > borne, > either by charging participants, by displaying ads, or from the > pocket of > the owner/manager of the list. These aren't insurmountable problems > but > they ought to be mentioned if changes to Frontiers are being > contemplated. >> >> Hope this is some help >> Laurie Larson >> Princeton, NJ >> >> >> Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 >> >> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html >> =>> =>> =>> ===================================================================== > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Ruben Deschamps Ebergenyi www.avesdemexico.net www.pajareando.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: URL's posted on the list. From: Ruben Deschamps <rdeschamps AT AVESDEMEXICO.NET> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 22:04:18 -0600 I think that for a tool to function for a community - it has to be as easy as possible :: it has to keep the good things it provided yesterday, the good ones it provides today and evolve to the ones that most probably will bring benefits tomorrow... I have seen communities that will not move from the simplicity of receiving everything in the same tool that they use all day - email... and we most not move from this simplicity... that is really a benefit of movility... not that I have to change my routine and go somewhere to find things, things most come to where I am... but this also does not block evolution to more efficient tools... it only asks to keep this simplicity of use... we have to reduce steps it takes to get the most - simplicity for the simple and more resources for the avid... we can have both Saludos from Northeast Mexico On 2010 03 17, at 9:15 PM, Greg Neise wrote: > Laurie, > > You bring up a lot of good points and I agree with pretty much > everything > you have said. > > Having almost single-handedly encouraged a birding mailing list of > 600-800 > to participate in a web-based community, I can say that it's not as > hard as > it is time consuming. It takes a while for some of your best > contributors to > participate...but they will. Web based forums have gotten to the point > where, if you can navigate your email application's in and out > boxes, you > can navigate and participate in a forum. > > Costs: My business is creating and running such sites. As with the > Illinois > Birders' Forum there will never be any cost to join or browse an ID > Frontiers forum, and in addition, I will be providing a photo-sharing > utility (similar to Flickr, but only for members of the forum) to host > images. Membership is not required to browse, but is required to > interact. > As with IBF, there will be products that are hand-picked for the > members of > the forum available via Amazon.com, and this helps defray the costs of > maintaining the site. > > The main reason that this idea gained traction in the first place > (among the > IDF members that I have discussed it with over the past year) is > that the > discussions that take place here are of great educational value, and > as it > is, are extremely difficult—if not impossible—to use via the current > email > archiving system. I propose (actually have already begun work on) a > system > to make the knowledge that is exchanged here much more accessible, > enjoyable > to browse and permanently archived. > > Cheers, > > -greg > > Greg Neise > > Illinois Birders' Forum > gregneise AT ilbirds.com > www.ilbirds.com > > In Plain Sight Communication > Photography | Web Presence > 1225 Oak Park Ave > Berwyn, IL 60402 > 708-484-5613 > greg.neise AT inplainsight.net > http://www.inplainsight.net > > ### > > On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:24:25 -0400, Laurie Larson > wrote: > >> Frontier-people, >> >> A few technical points, if you'll forgive me; given Will's desire >> to bring > this thread to a close I hope this will help clarify without causing > a lot > of debate. I'll be happy to "take it offline" if there are questions > inappropriate for the list, and I'm sure the many others on this > list who > have as much or more knowledge as I do will also be willing to help > if need be. >> >> I'm not a listowner here but I've helped run other Listserv-based >> lists > including Birdchat and Birdeast. Like those two, plus BirdWest, > BirdCntr, > BirdBand and the Arizona birding forum, Frontiers is a guest on the > University of Arizona's servers. The family of lists has paid Arizona > nothing for twenty years of use of the Listserv software or storage of > archives, and listowners try to minimize our requests for support by > their > staff. The Arizona lists are all configured to allow no graphical > attachments (although recent versions of Listserv do permit > configuring a > list with associated file archives or some types of attachments). > This was > originally because of space considerations when storage was very > expensive. >> >> The e-mail based Listserv software is old-fashioned, but robust; >> people can > join and participate, almost without regard to the platform, OS, > network > speed, or mail software available to them. The problem of sharing > images > has been dealt with by requiring the participant (the poster) to > host the > graphical image on their own web or file space, rather than putting > the > burden on the Arizona Listserver. In some cases this is difficult > for some > participants, or may be confusing because of the variety of links and > technologies. But it has worked fairly well and, by the way, it's > free -- or > more accurately, the costs are shared by everyone who posts images. >> >> Web based forums, while more modern and more graphically >> sophisticated, are > not always as universally accessible as e-mail. Technically it isn't > easy to > move a whole mailing list community to a different host or a different > format. Finally, a web-based system may carry a cost that has to be > borne, > either by charging participants, by displaying ads, or from the > pocket of > the owner/manager of the list. These aren't insurmountable problems > but > they ought to be mentioned if changes to Frontiers are being > contemplated. >> >> Hope this is some help >> Laurie Larson >> Princeton, NJ >> >> >> Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 >> >> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html >> = >> = >> = >> ===================================================================== > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Ruben Deschamps Ebergenyi www.avesdemexico.net www.pajareando.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: URL's posted on the list. From: Greg Neise <gregneise AT ILBIRDS.COM> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:15:41 -0700 Laurie, You bring up a lot of good points and I agree with pretty much everything you have said. Having almost single-handedly encouraged a birding mailing list of 600-800 to participate in a web-based community, I can say that it's not as hard as it is time consuming. It takes a while for some of your best contributors to participate...but they will. Web based forums have gotten to the point where, if you can navigate your email application's in and out boxes, you can navigate and participate in a forum. Costs: My business is creating and running such sites. As with the Illinois Birders' Forum there will never be any cost to join or browse an ID Frontiers forum, and in addition, I will be providing a photo-sharing utility (similar to Flickr, but only for members of the forum) to host images. Membership is not required to browse, but is required to interact. As with IBF, there will be products that are hand-picked for the members of the forum available via Amazon.com, and this helps defray the costs of maintaining the site. The main reason that this idea gained traction in the first place (among the IDF members that I have discussed it with over the past year) is that the discussions that take place here are of great educational value, and as it is, are extremely difficult—if not impossible—to use via the current email archiving system. I propose (actually have already begun work on) a system to make the knowledge that is exchanged here much more accessible, enjoyable to browse and permanently archived. Cheers, -greg Greg Neise Illinois Birders' Forum gregneise AT ilbirds.com www.ilbirds.com In Plain Sight Communication Photography | Web Presence 1225 Oak Park Ave Berwyn, IL 60402 708-484-5613 greg.neise AT inplainsight.net http://www.inplainsight.net ### On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:24:25 -0400, Laurie Larson wrote: >Frontier-people, > >A few technical points, if you'll forgive me; given Will's desire to bring this thread to a close I hope this will help clarify without causing a lot of debate. I'll be happy to "take it offline" if there are questions inappropriate for the list, and I'm sure the many others on this list who have as much or more knowledge as I do will also be willing to help if need be. > >I'm not a listowner here but I've helped run other Listserv-based lists including Birdchat and Birdeast. Like those two, plus BirdWest, BirdCntr, BirdBand and the Arizona birding forum, Frontiers is a guest on the University of Arizona's servers. The family of lists has paid Arizona nothing for twenty years of use of the Listserv software or storage of archives, and listowners try to minimize our requests for support by their staff. The Arizona lists are all configured to allow no graphical attachments (although recent versions of Listserv do permit configuring a list with associated file archives or some types of attachments). This was originally because of space considerations when storage was very expensive. > >The e-mail based Listserv software is old-fashioned, but robust; people can join and participate, almost without regard to the platform, OS, network speed, or mail software available to them. The problem of sharing images has been dealt with by requiring the participant (the poster) to host the graphical image on their own web or file space, rather than putting the burden on the Arizona Listserver. In some cases this is difficult for some participants, or may be confusing because of the variety of links and technologies. But it has worked fairly well and, by the way, it's free -- or more accurately, the costs are shared by everyone who posts images. > >Web based forums, while more modern and more graphically sophisticated, are not always as universally accessible as e-mail. Technically it isn't easy to move a whole mailing list community to a different host or a different format. Finally, a web-based system may carry a cost that has to be borne, either by charging participants, by displaying ads, or from the pocket of the owner/manager of the list. These aren't insurmountable problems but they ought to be mentioned if changes to Frontiers are being contemplated. > >Hope this is some help >Laurie Larson >Princeton, NJ > > >Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > >Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html >======================================================================== Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Listowner Message Part 2 From: Will Russell <willrussell AT COMCAST.NET> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 17:51:12 -0700 Perhaps I should add that I am not at present contemplating any change to the ID-Frontiers listserv. Greg Neise's comments came as surprise to me and his securing of various Id-Frontiers URLs represent an independent action on his part. I agree that there are far more sophisticated ways of dealing with ID-F type information but the shortcomings of such approaches have been well described by Laurie. I would be willing in theory to move ID-F to a different platform, even under someone else's leadership, but I'd need to be convinced that the editorial and fiscal structure was robust and the forum easily available to all. Will Russell willrussell AT comcast.net Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: URL's posted on the list. From: Laurie Larson <llarson AT PRINCETON.EDU> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:24:25 -0400 Frontier-people, A few technical points, if you'll forgive me; given Will's desire to bring this thread to a close I hope this will help clarify without causing a lot of debate. I'll be happy to "take it offline" if there are questions inappropriate for the list, and I'm sure the many others on this list who have as much or more knowledge as I do will also be willing to help if need be. I'm not a listowner here but I've helped run other Listserv-based lists including Birdchat and Birdeast. Like those two, plus BirdWest, BirdCntr, BirdBand and the Arizona birding forum, Frontiers is a guest on the University of Arizona's servers. The family of lists has paid Arizona nothing for twenty years of use of the Listserv software or storage of archives, and listowners try to minimize our requests for support by their staff. The Arizona lists are all configured to allow no graphical attachments (although recent versions of Listserv do permit configuring a list with associated file archives or some types of attachments). This was originally because of space considerations when storage was very expensive. The e-mail based Listserv software is old-fashioned, but robust; people can join and participate, almost without regard to the platform, OS, network speed, or mail software available to them. The problem of sharing images has been dealt with by requiring the participant (the poster) to host the graphical image on their own web or file space, rather than putting the burden on the Arizona Listserver. In some cases this is difficult for some participants, or may be confusing because of the variety of links and technologies. But it has worked fairly well and, by the way, it's free -- or more accurately, the costs are shared by everyone who posts images. Web based forums, while more modern and more graphically sophisticated, are not always as universally accessible as e-mail. Technically it isn't easy to move a whole mailing list community to a different host or a different format. Finally, a web-based system may carry a cost that has to be borne, either by charging participants, by displaying ads, or from the pocket of the owner/manager of the list. These aren't insurmountable problems but they ought to be mentioned if changes to Frontiers are being contemplated. Hope this is some help Laurie Larson Princeton, NJ Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Listowner Message From: Will Russell <willrussell AT COMCAST.NET> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 13:55:24 -0700 I think the URL conversation while useful should be brought to a close. If anyone has further comments, could they make them by the end of the day? Thanks. There have been a number of solutions offered; if none of them work please contact me directly and I’ll query the technical people at the University of Arizona. Will Russell willrussell AT comcast.net   Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: URL's posted on the list. From: John Puschock <g_g_allin AT HOTMAIL.COM> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:50:24 +0000 Howdy, First, I apologize for making an "administrative" post having nothing to do with bird identification, and if I could put myself on moderated status for making this off-topic post, I would. Sorry. But since this conversation seems to have picked up some momentum, I'm jumping in: I strongly dislike forums, so much so that I even refuse to write "fora", except to point out that I hate the term. ;) Admittedly, I probably just haven't learned how to use them correctly, but it seems like a lot more work than a listserv. With a listserv like this, I just have to sit back and the posts come into my inbox. I don't have to visit another website, nor look through different categories to see what's new, etc. Maybe a forum has an option to drop new posts into your inbox or maybe you can do something with an RSS feed, though that seems like something more I'll have to work with. But my I'm just too lazy to even figure that out. I'm also not a fan of using Yahoo Groups for posting photos. Most groups are set to only show photos to subscribers, so that means I have to log in to gain access. Sure, it sounds simple, but...To quote Mr. Burns in the "Rosebud" episode of The Simpsons, "Bah, no time." Of course this listserv isn't a democracy, but if I could vote, I vote for the status quo. Perhaps one other option may be allowing photo attachments, though I know not everyone has high-speed connections and perhaps the U of A has a general policy against that on their listservs. John Puschock Seattle, WA g_g_allin AT hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID27925::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:032010_1 Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: URL's posted on the list. From: Greg Neise <gregneise AT ILBIRDS.COM> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 13:21:32 -0700 Hi Ruben (and all), I have actually been working on this for a few months, using the software that I use to run the Illinois Birders' Forum. I have kept it quiet as I work out a feature set to present to the IDF group. I have also been waiting for version 2.0 of the SMF software to be released, but it is now at v 2.0RC3, which is close enough not to cause any problems. I own the addresses IDFRONTIERS.COM, .NET and .ORG (right now, the URLs don't point to anything, by the way)and the forum is hosted (as with IBF) on it's own FatCow plan, with unlimited bandwidth and disk space. I anticipate having the new forum up and running by the end of April...if anyone is interested in helping to beta test it, please drop me a note at gregneise AT ilbirds.com Cheers, -greg Greg Neise Illinois Birders' Forum gregneise AT ilbirds.com www.ilbirds.com In Plain Sight Communication Photography | Web Presence 1225 Oak Park Ave Berwyn, IL 60402 708-484-5613 greg.neise AT inplainsight.net http://www.inplainsight.net On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 14:04:54 -0600, Ruben Deschamps wrote: >I am in favor of upgrading the software or process we (ID Frontiers) >use to communicate. We are people, so the easier we do communicate >will increase our participation and benefits of doing it - quality of >the data we share will also increase. > >In AvesdeMexico(.net) we use (as on forum at IBF - mentioned by Mathew >Winks) a software for communities - in AvesdeMexico we use >"ExpressionEngine". > >I offer: (1) to register an address for "ID Frontiers" or any other >suggested, (2) share part of my server (that I have with Media Temple) >to operate it and (3) manage it (in coordination with the actual list >managers) to communicate (as a forum) through "Expression Engine" as >we do with AvesdeMexico. > >Saludos from Northeast Mexico >Ruben Deschamps Ebergenyi > > >On 2010 03 17, at 1:17 PM, Matthew J. Stone wrote: > >> A suggestion that I didn't see anybody else mention (apologies if I >> missed it or if this is common knowledge): >> >> Occasionally problems can be caused by very long URLs as messages >> get quoted in other messages, etc. You can end up with line breaks >> and punctuation within the URL that can break it. To fight this, >> there is a free web site called TinyURL where you can translate a >> very long url into a very short one (they are at http://tinyurl.com >> - examples of how it works at http://tinyurl.com/#example ). >> >> Hope this helps. >> >> >> matt >> >> On 3/17/2010 2:27 PM, Matthew Winks wrote: >> > Hi all, >>> >>> Personally, I've had few problems accessing photographs from posts >>> on ID >>> Frontiers. But I agree with others that it can be cumbersome and >>> difficult at times. Contrary to Cliff Weisse, when a discussion >>> involves >>> numerous photos, I prefer to click one link and see the entire >>> gallery. >>> With the nature of the ID Frontiers listserve relying heavily on >>> photographs, it would be advantageous if sharing and accessing photos >>> was more easily done. >>> >>> The Illinois listserv uses Yahoo! which is fine for text, but as Barb >>> Beck noted, is terrible for sharing photos. >>> >>> The Illinois Birder's Forum provides an excellent platform for >>> identification discussions which involve several photos. They can be >>> uploaded and embedded in the post itself or they can be linked from a >>> personal gallery like photobucket or Flickr. When linked in the post, >>> the photo appears in the post rather than having to click it and be >>> taken to another site. I think ID Frontiers should consider moving >>> to a >>> setup like this which would benefit everybody, especially those >>> having >>> trouble accessing photographs. >>> >>> Here's a link the Identification on forum at IBF (I really hope this >>> link works). >>> >>> http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?board=2.0 >>> >>> Matthew Winks >>> El Paso, IL >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 11:57:46 -0400 >>> From: TUFTEDS AT AOL.COM >>> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] URL's posted on the list. >>> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 3/16/10 4:28:55 AM, barb AT BIRDNUT.OBTUSE.COM >>> writes: >>> >>> >>> Anyway as it stands the photos are not being accessed by a >>> number of us >>> because we just do not spend the time to dig down or get to a >>> page which >>> needs a membership ID etc etc. >>> >>> If I had my druthers we would move the thing to a Yahoo group >>> where you >>> have space to post photos and another space for files and have >>> easy >>> access to all of them for all members. >>> >>> Barb Beck >>> Edmonton Alberta Canada >>> >>> >>> >>> Most who have this problem will find it goes away if you try >>> putting the >>> URL in a different browser. I have never had to join a group to get >>> access. Just today I got a mystery page then moved the URL over to >>> Safari where I instantly accessed the exact photos. >>> >>> The most difficulty I have is with photos stored in Yahoo!, where I >>> belong to several lists and can still have trouble getting into photo >>> files and navigating through them to the desired photos. >>> >>> Barbara Ribble >>> Austin, Tx, USA Join or Leave BIRDWG01: >>> http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 >>> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your >>> inbox. Get started. >>> >> > >>> >>> Join or Leave BIRDWG01: >>> http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 >>> >>> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html >>> >> >> >> Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 >> >> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > >Ruben Deschamps Ebergenyi >www.avesdemexico.net >www.pajareando.com > > >Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > >Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: URL's posted on the list. From: Ruben Deschamps <rdeschamps AT AVESDEMEXICO.NET> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 14:04:54 -0600 I am in favor of upgrading the software or process we (ID Frontiers) use to communicate. We are people, so the easier we do communicate will increase our participation and benefits of doing it - quality of the data we share will also increase. In AvesdeMexico(.net) we use (as on forum at IBF - mentioned by Mathew Winks) a software for communities - in AvesdeMexico we use "ExpressionEngine". I offer: (1) to register an address for "ID Frontiers" or any other suggested, (2) share part of my server (that I have with Media Temple) to operate it and (3) manage it (in coordination with the actual list managers) to communicate (as a forum) through "Expression Engine" as we do with AvesdeMexico. Saludos from Northeast Mexico Ruben Deschamps Ebergenyi On 2010 03 17, at 1:17 PM, Matthew J. Stone wrote: > A suggestion that I didn't see anybody else mention (apologies if I > missed it or if this is common knowledge): > > Occasionally problems can be caused by very long URLs as messages > get quoted in other messages, etc. You can end up with line breaks > and punctuation within the URL that can break it. To fight this, > there is a free web site called TinyURL where you can translate a > very long url into a very short one (they are at http://tinyurl.com > - examples of how it works at http://tinyurl.com/#example ). > > Hope this helps. > > > matt > > On 3/17/2010 2:27 PM, Matthew Winks wrote: > > Hi all, >> >> Personally, I've had few problems accessing photographs from posts >> on ID >> Frontiers. But I agree with others that it can be cumbersome and >> difficult at times. Contrary to Cliff Weisse, when a discussion >> involves >> numerous photos, I prefer to click one link and see the entire >> gallery. >> With the nature of the ID Frontiers listserve relying heavily on >> photographs, it would be advantageous if sharing and accessing photos >> was more easily done. >> >> The Illinois listserv uses Yahoo! which is fine for text, but as Barb >> Beck noted, is terrible for sharing photos. >> >> The Illinois Birder's Forum provides an excellent platform for >> identification discussions which involve several photos. They can be >> uploaded and embedded in the post itself or they can be linked from a >> personal gallery like photobucket or Flickr. When linked in the post, >> the photo appears in the post rather than having to click it and be >> taken to another site. I think ID Frontiers should consider moving >> to a >> setup like this which would benefit everybody, especially those >> having >> trouble accessing photographs. >> >> Here's a link the Identification on forum at IBF (I really hope this >> link works). >> >> http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?board=2.0 >> >> Matthew Winks >> El Paso, IL >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 11:57:46 -0400 >> From: TUFTEDS AT AOL.COM >> Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] URL's posted on the list. >> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU >> >> >> In a message dated 3/16/10 4:28:55 AM, barb AT BIRDNUT.OBTUSE.COM >> writes: >> >> >> Anyway as it stands the photos are not being accessed by a >> number of us >> because we just do not spend the time to dig down or get to a >> page which >> needs a membership ID etc etc. >> >> If I had my druthers we would move the thing to a Yahoo group >> where you >> have space to post photos and another space for files and have >> easy >> access to all of them for all members. >> >> Barb Beck >> Edmonton Alberta Canada >> >> >> >> Most who have this problem will find it goes away if you try >> putting the >> URL in a different browser. I have never had to join a group to get >> access. Just today I got a mystery page then moved the URL over to >> Safari where I instantly accessed the exact photos. >> >> The most difficulty I have is with photos stored in Yahoo!, where I >> belong to several lists and can still have trouble getting into photo >> files and navigating through them to the desired photos. >> >> Barbara Ribble >> Austin, Tx, USA Join or Leave BIRDWG01: >> http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 >> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your >> inbox. Get started. >> > > >> >> Join or Leave BIRDWG01: >> http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 >> >> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html >> > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Ruben Deschamps Ebergenyi www.avesdemexico.net www.pajareando.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: URL's posted on the list. From: "Matthew J. Stone" <mstone AT VERMONTEL.NET> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 15:17:33 -0400 A suggestion that I didn't see anybody else mention (apologies if I missed it or if this is common knowledge): Occasionally problems can be caused by very long URLs as messages get quoted in other messages, etc. You can end up with line breaks and punctuation within the URL that can break it. To fight this, there is a free web site called TinyURL where you can translate a very long url into a very short one (they are at http://tinyurl.com - examples of how it works at http://tinyurl.com/#example ). Hope this helps. matt On 3/17/2010 2:27 PM, Matthew Winks wrote: > Hi all, > > Personally, I've had few problems accessing photographs from posts on ID > Frontiers. But I agree with others that it can be cumbersome and > difficult at times. Contrary to Cliff Weisse, when a discussion involves > numerous photos, I prefer to click one link and see the entire gallery. > With the nature of the ID Frontiers listserve relying heavily on > photographs, it would be advantageous if sharing and accessing photos > was more easily done. > > The Illinois listserv uses Yahoo! which is fine for text, but as Barb > Beck noted, is terrible for sharing photos. > > The Illinois Birder's Forum provides an excellent platform for > identification discussions which involve several photos. They can be > uploaded and embedded in the post itself or they can be linked from a > personal gallery like photobucket or Flickr. When linked in the post, > the photo appears in the post rather than having to click it and be > taken to another site. I think ID Frontiers should consider moving to a > setup like this which would benefit everybody, especially those having > trouble accessing photographs. > > Here's a link the Identification on forum at IBF (I really hope this > link works). > > http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?board=2.0 > > Matthew Winks > El Paso, IL > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 11:57:46 -0400 > From: TUFTEDS AT AOL.COM > Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] URL's posted on the list. > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU > > > In a message dated 3/16/10 4:28:55 AM, barb AT BIRDNUT.OBTUSE.COM writes: > > > Anyway as it stands the photos are not being accessed by a number of us > because we just do not spend the time to dig down or get to a page which > needs a membership ID etc etc. > > If I had my druthers we would move the thing to a Yahoo group where you > have space to post photos and another space for files and have easy > access to all of them for all members. > > Barb Beck > Edmonton Alberta Canada > > > > Most who have this problem will find it goes away if you try putting the > URL in a different browser. I have never had to join a group to get > access. Just today I got a mystery page then moved the URL over to > Safari where I instantly accessed the exact photos. > > The most difficulty I have is with photos stored in Yahoo!, where I > belong to several lists and can still have trouble getting into photo > files and navigating through them to the desired photos. > > Barbara Ribble > Austin, Tx, USA Join or Leave BIRDWG01: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your > inbox. Get started. > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: URL's posted on the list. From: Matthew Winks <fluidfive AT HOTMAIL.COM> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 13:27:32 -0500 Hi all, Personally, I've had few problems accessing photographs from posts on ID Frontiers. But I agree with others that it can be cumbersome and difficult at times. Contrary to Cliff Weisse, when a discussion involves numerous photos, I prefer to click one link and see the entire gallery. With the nature of the ID Frontiers listserve relying heavily on photographs, it would be advantageous if sharing and accessing photos was more easily done. The Illinois listserv uses Yahoo! which is fine for text, but as Barb Beck noted, is terrible for sharing photos. The Illinois Birder's Forum provides an excellent platform for identification discussions which involve several photos. They can be uploaded and embedded in the post itself or they can be linked from a personal gallery like photobucket or Flickr. When linked in the post, the photo appears in the post rather than having to click it and be taken to another site. I think ID Frontiers should consider moving to a setup like this which would benefit everybody, especially those having trouble accessing photographs. Here's a link the Identification on forum at IBF (I really hope this link works). http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?board=2.0 Matthew Winks El Paso, IL Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 11:57:46 -0400 From: TUFTEDS AT AOL.COM Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] URL's posted on the list. To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU In a message dated 3/16/10 4:28:55 AM, barb AT BIRDNUT.OBTUSE.COM writes: Anyway as it stands the photos are not being accessed by a number of us because we just do not spend the time to dig down or get to a page which needs a membership ID etc etc. If I had my druthers we would move the thing to a Yahoo group where you have space to post photos and another space for files and have easy access to all of them for all members. Barb Beck Edmonton Alberta Canada Most who have this problem will find it goes away if you try putting the URL in a different browser. I have never had to join a group to get access. Just today I got a mystery page then moved the URL over to Safari where I instantly accessed the exact photos. The most difficulty I have is with photos stored in Yahoo!, where I belong to several lists and can still have trouble getting into photo files and navigating through them to the desired photos. Barbara Ribble Austin, Tx, USA Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID27925::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:032010_3 Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: One more Junco photo From: "R.D. Everhart" <everhart AT BLACK-HOLE.COM> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 08:14:09 -0500 I've added one more photo of the junco I posted to my blog a couple of days ago to show its back pattern. I don't know if this changes anything but I think it's a better view than the other photos. Double click on the photo to get a better view. http://minnesotabirdnerd.blogspot.com Roger Everhart Apple Valley, MN www.ncbo.org Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Another Hybrid Puzzle From: greatgrayowl AT AOL.COM Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 16:43:58 -0400 All: I, too, agree with Kenn that this bird doesn't look like a SCJU x WTSP hybrid. I've banded one of those things and it looked much more obviously intermediate. I cannot rule out a distant backcross toward junco, but, as Kenn also noted, with one of the western forms, not with the form that overlaps WTSP widely. My first thought on the beast was similar to that of Christian's, that it's an aberrant junco. However, though the lateral throat stripes might be an ancestral feature of juncos that is emerging due to the abnormal pigment (if "just" a junco), it looks a bit strong for that. I liked Kenn's suggestion of Green-tailed Towhee as a parent, but, again, there's almost nothing else in the bird's plumage that suggests that. I've seen two Green-tailed x Spotted Towhees (and pix of a third), and the rufous crown patch of GTTO has come through and was quite obvious in all of 'em. So, I'd suggest that if this bird were a junco x GTTO hybrid, it would probably have at least some suggestion of a rufous crown patch. Of course, predicting what comes out of the blender in various hybridization events can be an exercise in futility, so.... If the bird were around me, I'd endeavor to catch it and extract a feather or two for DNA analysis. Too many of these puzzles are never solved and the discussions about them degenerate to shouting and arm-waving with no side of the argument having anything remotely like solid data. Yes, some hybrids appear quite obvious (as to their parental species), but many do not and if this bird is a hybrid, I'd say the jury is not only not in, it hasn't even been empaneled. Tony Leukering Villas, NJ -----Original Message----- From: R.D. Everhart To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Mon, Mar 15, 2010 11:56 pm Subject: [BIRDWG01] Another Hybrid Puzzle Since we're on the subject of hybrids, I have a friend in Texas doing ird surveys this winter who sent me some photos of a bird which uggests a hybrid Dark-eyed Junco with a White-throated Sparrow. I have posted his photos on my blog and welcome any comments on this ird. http://minnesotabirdnerd.blogspot.com Roger Everhart pple Valley, Minnesota ww.ncbo.org oin or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Another Hybrid Puzzle From: Christian Nunes <pajaroboy AT HOTMAIL.COM> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:24:07 -0400 I'd agree with Ken that this isn't a Dark-eyed Junco x White-throated Sparrow. But, I'd make the argument that it's not a hybrid at all but rather a leucistic female Oregon Junco. The only abnormal features on the thing are the areas of pale feathering around the throat and supercilium. Maybe the fringe on one of those right-wing tertials is too pale. The most logical explanation is a common pigment abnormality. I don't know what a Dark-eyed Junco x Green-tailed Towhee would look like, but I imagine a combination like that would have more GTTO features like a darker bill, maybe some greenish in the plumage, or a brighter rufous crown. Cheers, Christian Nunes Boulder, Colorado pajaroboy AT hotmail.com http://www.flickr.com/photos/christian_nunes/ > > Interesting photos. Slate-colored Junco X White-throated Sparrow is a > pretty frequent hybrid combination, but my gut reaction is that this is > something else. For one thing, it appears that the junco parent likely > would have been one of the Oregon types, judging by the colors on the back > and flanks. But I wonder if White-throated Sparrow would have been the > other parent. I've seen a couple of examples of SCJU X WTSP hybrids, and > have seen photos of others, and they didn't look like this. It's my > impression that the hybrids usually have the back and scapulars prominently > streaked like a WTSP. A hybrid that we had in Arizona years ago had the > strongly striped back and a mostly gray head, and superficially it suggested > the pattern of Black-chinned Sparrow. On the Texas bird in your photos, the > lack of any back pattern or wing pattern makes me think there's not much > WTSP influence shown. > > This is just an impression, I'm not putting it forward as a serious theory, > but the smoothly patterned body and wings combined with the face pattern > makes me think of an Oregon (Dark-eyed) Junco X Green-tailed Towhee. That's > the smallest towhee, not much larger than a White-throated Sparrow, so the > combination isn't as outlandish as it sounds. And the pattern of the face, > throat, and chest would be just about right. > > Did you say where in Texas this was? Some locations in that state could be > considered distinctly "eastern" or "western," so it makes some difference. > > At any rate, thanks for sharing the photos. > > Kenn Kaufman > Oak Harbor, Ohio > > > > Roger Everhart wrote: > > > Since we're on the subject of hybrids, I have a friend in Texas doing > bird surveys this winter who sent me some photos of a bird which > suggests a hybrid Dark-eyed Junco with a White-throated Sparrow. > > I have posted his photos on my blog and welcome any comments on this > bird. > > http://minnesotabirdnerd.blogspot.com > > Roger Everhart > Apple Valley, Minnesota > www.ncbo.org _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID27925::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:032010_2 Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: URL's posted on the list. From: TUFTEDS AT AOL.COM Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 11:57:46 EDT In a message dated 3/16/10 4:28:55 AM, barb AT BIRDNUT.OBTUSE.COM writes: > Anyway as it stands the photos are not being accessed by a number of us > because we just do not spend the time to dig down or get to a page which > needs a membership ID etc etc. > > If I had my druthers we would move the thing to a Yahoo group where you > have space to post photos and another space for files and have easy > access to all of them for all members. > > Barb Beck > Edmonton Alberta Canada > Most who have this problem will find it goes away if you try putting the URL in a different browser. I have never had to join a group to get access. Just today I got a mystery page then moved the URL over to Safari where I instantly accessed the exact photos. The most difficulty I have is with photos stored in Yahoo!, where I belong to several lists and can still have trouble getting into photo files and navigating through them to the desired photos. Barbara Ribble Austin, Tx, USA Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: URL's posted on the list. From: Barb Beck <barb AT BIRDNUT.OBTUSE.COM> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 03:28:24 -0600 I have just given up following many of the links if I do not see it right away. I used to post to the sender but have just given up with that. I figure that if they do not care enough to make sure we can see the material it must not be that important to them. Would suggest a new rule for the list. All URLs posted as a hyperlink if you wish but also include the URL in PLAIN TEXT and send yourself the message to check the links BEFORE it is posted. That is click any hyperlink and ALSO check the text url sure it works- copy and past it into your browser to make sure it goes where you want it. When a picture or text is posted it should be available to all without going through having to become a member of some site to view the material. You should not have to search through many levels at the site to finally come to the page where the item exists. Even text material is not posted on the list but a link to a site where the poster wants you to see the ads on their web page. The U of Arizona listerv has served us well for a long time BUT it has no web access asociated with it as do some newer listservers Anyway as it stands the photos are not being accessed by a number of us because we just do not spend the time to dig down or get to a page which needs a membership ID etc etc. If I had my druthers we would move the thing to a Yahoo group where you have space to post photos and another space for files and have easy access to all of them for all members. Barb Beck Edmonton Alberta Canada Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Another Hybrid Puzzle From: Kenn Kaufman <kenn.kaufman AT WORLDNET.ATT.NET> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 03:29:23 -0400 Interesting photos. Slate-colored Junco X White-throated Sparrow is a pretty frequent hybrid combination, but my gut reaction is that this is something else. For one thing, it appears that the junco parent likely would have been one of the Oregon types, judging by the colors on the back and flanks. But I wonder if White-throated Sparrow would have been the other parent. I've seen a couple of examples of SCJU X WTSP hybrids, and have seen photos of others, and they didn't look like this. It's my impression that the hybrids usually have the back and scapulars prominently streaked like a WTSP. A hybrid that we had in Arizona years ago had the strongly striped back and a mostly gray head, and superficially it suggested the pattern of Black-chinned Sparrow. On the Texas bird in your photos, the lack of any back pattern or wing pattern makes me think there's not much WTSP influence shown. This is just an impression, I'm not putting it forward as a serious theory, but the smoothly patterned body and wings combined with the face pattern makes me think of an Oregon (Dark-eyed) Junco X Green-tailed Towhee. That's the smallest towhee, not much larger than a White-throated Sparrow, so the combination isn't as outlandish as it sounds. And the pattern of the face, throat, and chest would be just about right. Did you say where in Texas this was? Some locations in that state could be considered distinctly "eastern" or "western," so it makes some difference. At any rate, thanks for sharing the photos. Kenn Kaufman Oak Harbor, Ohio > Roger Everhart wrote: Since we're on the subject of hybrids, I have a friend in Texas doing bird surveys this winter who sent me some photos of a bird which suggests a hybrid Dark-eyed Junco with a White-throated Sparrow. I have posted his photos on my blog and welcome any comments on this bird. http://minnesotabirdnerd.blogspot.com Roger Everhart Apple Valley, Minnesota www.ncbo.org Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Another Hybrid Puzzle From: "R.D. Everhart" <everhart AT BLACK-HOLE.COM> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 22:56:44 -0500 Since we're on the subject of hybrids, I have a friend in Texas doing bird surveys this winter who sent me some photos of a bird which suggests a hybrid Dark-eyed Junco with a White-throated Sparrow. I have posted his photos on my blog and welcome any comments on this bird. http://minnesotabirdnerd.blogspot.com Roger Everhart Apple Valley, Minnesota www.ncbo.org Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: URL for chickadee x titmoust From: Cliff and Lisa Weisse <CliffandLisa AT OCTOBERSETTERS.COM> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 12:35:17 -0600 All, This is something that's been a pet peeve of mine for a long time. The photo is posted and has its own URL. My recommendation to anyone posting photos would be to use the actual address for the photo. Like this: http://i545.photobucket.com/albums/hh399/frakerpovc/P1050416.jpg Then you don't have to deal with the forum (or album, or slideshow, etc.) at all. It doesn't take much time to find the photo's address (right click on image, then select "View Image" or "Show Picture") and it saves the rest of us from having to find it ourselves. A separate link to the forum discussion can be provided for those interested. The same approach would prevent us from having to figure out how to manipulate albums and slideshows, especially if you intend to open multiple images in different tabs at the same time. Thanks for listening. Cliff Doug Pratt wrote: > Hi birders: > > I have a complaint that has been lodged on this forum, but bears > repeating. Nothing is so annoying as wasting a lot of time fishing > through a website for a photo that seems not to be there. PLEASE, > PLEASE, PLEASE give the navigational details when you send us to some > website for a photo! I spent quite a bit of time at the IBF site and > never found the hybrid chickadee x titmouse photo. The photo is > obviously not on the home page. So, I searched the photo gallery for > Black-capped Chickadee and Tufted Titmouse, but no hybrid turned up. > I also searched the photographer's name (which should have worked), > but it pulled up a shot of a Long-eared Owl by another photographer! > Go figure. So I still haven't seen the bird in question. This forum > should not be a game of hide-and-seek. > > Doug > > Please note my new email address. The old ncmail one will go extinct > soon. > > H. Douglas Pratt, Ph. D., Research Curator of Birds > North Carolina State Museum of Natural Sciences > 11 West Jones Street > Raleigh, NC 27601-1029 > > Phone: (919)733-7450 ext. 728 > E-mail: doug.pratt AT ncdenr.gov > > E-mail correspondence to and from this address may be subject to the > North Carolina Public Records Law and may be disclosed to third parties. > > > > > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > -- Cliff and Lisa Weisse Island Park, Idaho cliffandlisa AT octobersetters.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: URL for chickadee x titmouse & ALL birds From: Greg Neise <gregneise AT ILBIRDS.COM> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 10:39:50 -0700 Hi All, A quick note about URLs for forum posts sent via ID Frontiers. This exact issue came up last fall (Oct. 2009), affecting one or two of the more than one-thousand recipients of this email list. I was very concerned, because the links given go directly to the topic with embedded pictures, and it should be as easy as that. Stephen Welch and Doug Pratt were having the same issue, and Stephen was kind enough to send back to me what he received via the ID Frontiers listserve, as well as a screen shot showing the link after it was clicked...and low-and-behold, the URL was not what had been sent. It was discovered that the contents of the email was being altered by the recipient's incoming mail server. The general web site is (http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php) and the part with the "?": (?topic=27403.0) indicates the topic. The whole URL should take you directly to that topic. What was happening in this case was that the variable part of the URL was changed, so that characters "3D" had been added to the beginning of the topic ID (e.g., ?topic=3D27403.0). I have only been made aware of this problem twice in nearly 4 years of running the forum. Links to forum topics on IBF have been sent or posted to people all over the world...indeed, Eric Walters' recent post containing pictures of a Golden Eagle attacking a White-tail Deer in northern Illinois was viewed over 50,000 time in 10 days, with that link being emailed to dozens of birding listserves. I did not receive a single report of a problem. If there are more people having this issue than are reporting it, please take a moment to email me, and include a copy of the message as you received it. Cheers, -greg Illinois Birders' Forum 1225 Oak Park Ave Berwyn, IL 60402 Greg Neise 708-484-5613 gregneise AT ilbirds.com http://www.ilbirds.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Chickmouse photos From: Doug Pratt <doug.pratt AT NCDENR.GOV> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 13:37:56 -0400 Hi folks: Thanks to all of you who offered help with my computer glitch. I still had the window open that did not show the bird in question (I scrolled all the way down), and watched it change when I clicked on the url one of you sent (which was identical to the one I first used!). I can't explain it, but the general complaint is still valid. It happens a lot. -Doug Please note my new email address. The old ncmail one will go extinct soon. H. Douglas Pratt, Ph. D., Research Curator of Birds North Carolina State Museum of Natural Sciences 11 West Jones Street Raleigh, NC 27601-1029 Phone: (919)733-7450 ext. 728 E-mail: doug.pratt AT ncdenr.gov E-mail correspondence to and from this address may be subject to the North Carolina Public Records Law and may be disclosed to third parties. Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: URL for chickadee x titmouse & ALL birds From: Robert O'Brien <baro AT PDX.EDU> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 09:29:48 -0700 I'd like to add to Doug's complaint which I strongly support. There should be a way to _preserve_ the photo's url in ongoing discussion messages. Often I am unable to read a topic until it has gone on for several days. At that point it is _really_ difficult to find the photo(s) to which the discussion refers without reading back through very many emails on the subject until you find a random one which contains the url. Bob OBrien Carver OR On Mon, 15 Mar 2010, Doug Pratt wrote: > Hi birders: > > I have a complaint that has been lodged on this forum, but bears repeating. > Nothing is so annoying as wasting a lot of time fishing through a website for > a photo that seems not to be there. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE give the > navigational details when you send us to some website for a photo! I spent > quite a bit of time at the IBF site and never found the hybrid chickadee x > titmouse photo. The photo is obviously not on the home page. So, I searched > the photo gallery for Black-capped Chickadee and Tufted Titmouse, but no > hybrid turned up. I also searched the photographer's name (which should have > worked), but it pulled up a shot of a Long-eared Owl by another photographer! > Go figure. So I still haven't seen the bird in question. This forum should > not be a game of hide-and-seek. > > Doug > > Please note my new email address. The old ncmail one will go extinct soon. > > H. Douglas Pratt, Ph. D., Research Curator of Birds > North Carolina State Museum of Natural Sciences > 11 West Jones Street > Raleigh, NC 27601-1029 > > Phone: (919)733-7450 ext. 728 > E-mail: doug.pratt AT ncdenr.gov > > E-mail correspondence to and from this address may be subject to the > North Carolina Public Records Law and may be disclosed to third parties. > > > > > > > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: URL for chickadee x titmoust From: Doug Pratt <doug.pratt AT NCDENR.GOV> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 11:17:05 -0400 Hi birders: I have a complaint that has been lodged on this forum, but bears repeating. Nothing is so annoying as wasting a lot of time fishing through a website for a photo that seems not to be there. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE give the navigational details when you send us to some website for a photo! I spent quite a bit of time at the IBF site and never found the hybrid chickadee x titmouse photo. The photo is obviously not on the home page. So, I searched the photo gallery for Black-capped Chickadee and Tufted Titmouse, but no hybrid turned up. I also searched the photographer's name (which should have worked), but it pulled up a shot of a Long-eared Owl by another photographer! Go figure. So I still haven't seen the bird in question. This forum should not be a game of hide-and-seek. Doug Please note my new email address. The old ncmail one will go extinct soon. H. Douglas Pratt, Ph. D., Research Curator of Birds North Carolina State Museum of Natural Sciences 11 West Jones Street Raleigh, NC 27601-1029 Phone: (919)733-7450 ext. 728 E-mail: doug.pratt AT ncdenr.gov E-mail correspondence to and from this address may be subject to the North Carolina Public Records Law and may be disclosed to third parties. Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse Hybrid From: Sebastian Patti <sebastianpatti AT HOTMAIL.COM> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 16:12:00 -0500 My recollection is that Vern "waffled" between Chickmouse, and Titadee, but ultimately settled on the former, for good cause . . . sebastianpatti AT hotmail.com Sebastian T. Patti (Lincoln Park) Chicago, ILLINOIS 60614-3354 PHONE: 312/793-5397 (o) 773/248-0570 (h) FAX: 312/793-2611 (o) 773/248-0264 (h) CELL: 773/304-7488 > Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 09:39:10 -0500 > From: tspahr AT CFA.HARVARD.EDU > Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse Hybrid > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU > > Hi Matt, ID folks: > > There is a record of this combo from Martha's Vineyard > from Vern Laux, the author of this book: > > Bird News: Vagrants and Visitors on a Peculiar Island > (1999) > > I believe he called it a 'chickmouse', which I find > rather catchy. > > And I believe this is an extremely rare combo, having not heard > of any others at all. > > Good find and good birding, > > Tim Spahr > > > > > On Sat, 13 Mar 2010, Matt Fraker wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Greetings, everyone -- > > > > Yesterday, I encountered a hybrid Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse during my weekly survey of the Clinton Lake area in De Witt County, Illinois. > > > > Two photos of the hybrid can be seen at this Illinois Birders' Forum link: > > > > http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=33667.0 > > > > From what I have tried to learn about this hybrid combination, it seems > somewhat unusual to rare (this was my first in about 37 years of birding, and I > could only find two recent literature references, plus a WBU sighting > reference). I am just wondering how unusual is this combination? If anyone has > any feedback, please feel free to reply here or backchannel at will. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Matt Fraker > > Bloomington, Illinois > > 03/12/10 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > = > > > > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > > > > > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse Hybrid From: greatgrayowl AT AOL.COM Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 15:02:52 -0400 Matt et al.: I didn't have any problem with Matt's ID on this bird, it seems an obvious hybrid to me, with only some of those reasons already pointed out in this venue. I'd add two more: 1) The placemenht of the eye relative to the dark of the crown is intermediate between the two species -- TUTI has the eye entirely surrounded by pale, while BCCH has more of the eye within the black of the crown; 2) The nasal tufts are brown, something that is variable in BCCH (brown or black) and, as far as I'm aware, invariant in TUTI (black). Excellent diagnosis, Matt! Enjoy, Tony Leukering Villas, NJ -----Original Message----- From: Matt Fraker To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Sat, Mar 13, 2010 9:31 am Subject: [BIRDWG01] Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse Hybrid Greetings, everyone -- Yesterday, I encountered a hybrid Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse during my weekly survey of the Clinton Lake area in De Witt County, Illinois. Two photos of the hybrid can be seen at this Illinois Birders' Forum link: http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=33667.0 From what I have tried to learn about this hybrid combination, it seems somewhat unusual to rare (this was my first in about 37 years of birding, and I could only find two recent literature references, plus a WBU sighting reference). I am just wondering how unusual is this combination? If anyone has any feedback, please feel free to reply here or backchannel at will. Thanks! Matt Fraker Bloomington, Illinois 03/12/10 Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: An interesting swallow in NS From: "Norman D.van Swelm" <Norman.vanswelm AT WXS.NL> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 18:43:13 +0100 Birds like this occur in Europe! I have seen broods where some were white and others as pinkish as in your bird. Cheers, Norman Phil Barnett wrote: >I'm not familiar with the Asian form, but I don't think this is Eurasian in that it looks fairly pinkish underneath. Ian Lewington would probably be the best person to talk about this bird. --- On Sun, 7/3/10, Ian A. McLaren wrote: From: Ian A. McLaren Subject: [BIRDWG01] An interesting swallow in NS To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Date: Sunday, 7 March, 2010, 20:38 All Apologies for my (by now well-known) typing dyslexia. Read "Sunrise Valley" and "Pyle", possibly etc. I was born long ago when Real Men didn't type. (Can I say that?). Cheers, Ian Ian A. McLaren Biology Department Dalhousie University Halifax, NS Canada B3H 4J1 Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse Hybrid From: Mark Stackhouse <westwings AT SISNA.COM> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 18:09:02 -0700 Thanks, Matt - that's exactly what I was looking for. You were so certain about this bird that I felt sure that there was something more to what you saw than is visible in the photos. I think we often (especially in this digital photo age) rely too much on photos that give an incomplete picture. That's why, when I served on the Utah records committee, I hated reviewing records that were little more than a photo, and always encouraged people to include a full description of the sighting, even if they had excellent photos. Great find. Mark Stackhouse mark AT westwings.com from Mexico: 01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit) 001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico) from U.S. 011-52-323-285-1243 or 1-801-518-5618 On Mar 13, 2010, at 3:44 PM, Matt Fraker wrote: > > When I first saw this bird, which was at about 10 feet, it > flashcarded as a Black-capped Chickadee; part of this was due to the > dirtier tones to the back (which, unfortunately, I did not get any > photos of) but also due to the strong line across the face, the dark > cap which initially presented flat (which made that area darker) and > the dusky area under the chin. I did not notice the wing pattern; I > assumed I was looking at a Chickadee (this bird) and a Titmouse (3 > feet to its right), but even with the naked eye, I could see > something was "wrong" with the Chickadee. So from an observer's > point, this was a bird that presented more like a Chickadee than a > Titmouse. Honestly, after the sighting, I expected that I would be > arguing against odd Chickadee; but that was with the benefit of the > full sighting, which was something I did not include in my original > report -- my apologies. > > Matt Fraker > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Allen T. Chartier > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU > Sent: Sat, Mar 13, 2010 9:38 am > Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse > Hybrid > > I too was wondering about the chin, but as a bander I see a lot of > bird with white underparts that show dark bases to the feathers, and > the absence of some throat feathers could create this effect. Or, > staining from sap... > > Allen T. Chartier > amazilia1(at)comcast.net > Inkster, Michigan, USA > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mark Stackhouse > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU > Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 12:12 PM > Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse > Hybrid > > The dark area on the chin was one of the things that I was hoping to > get some input from the observer - I'm having a hard time deciding > if those are actually black feathers on the chin, or dark gray > (something that may be within the normal variation). The definition > and shape of the line between the cap and the cheek do suggest a > chickadee. > > I was mistaken in my geography in thinking that De Witt County was > in the southern part of the state, rather than the central. > > An interesting bird, in any event. > > Mark Stackhouse > mark AT westwings.com > from Mexico: > 01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit) > 001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico) > from U.S. > 011-52-323-285-1243 or > 1-801-518-5618 > > > > > On Mar 13, 2010, at 9:59 AM, Cliff and Lisa Weisse wrote: > >> First I have very little experience with Tufted/Black-crested >> Titmouse and I'm totally unfamiliar with variation in the species. >> That said, in addition to the extensive black on the crest isn't >> there a hint of a black bib? Even lightened in photoshop the chin >> and throat look dusky gray to me, suggesting a shadow of the black >> bib that's consistent in shape and extent with BC Chickadee. I >> don't think it's an artifact of lighting. Is this normally shown >> by Tufted Titmouse? >> >> Also wouldn't an intergrade with Black-crested by very unlikely >> that far north? >> >> Cliff >> >> Mark Stackhouse wrote: >>> >>> I had about the same reaction - is this clearly a hybrid, or is >>> this normal variation, and if it is a hybrid, is Black-capped >>> Chickadee really the other parent? Could the other parent be Black- >>> crested Titmouse, something much more likely? >>> >>> Perhaps a more detailed description from the observer would help. >>> >>> Mark Stackhouse >>> mark AT westwings.com >>> from Mexico: >>> 01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit) >>> 001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico) >>> from U.S. >>> 011-52-323-285-1243 or >>> 1-801-518-5618 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mar 13, 2010, at 9:17 AM, Allen T. Chartier wrote: >>> >>>> Perhaps it is just me, but I'm having trouble seeing any >>>> characters other than titmouse in these photos. The bird does >>>> have a short crest (wear?) and slightly more black on the >>>> forehead than normal (variation?), but where are the chickadee >>>> characters? >>>> >>>> Allen T. Chartier >>>> amazilia1(at)comcast.net >>>> Inkster, Michigan, USA >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Matt Fraker >>>> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU >>>> Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 9:31 AM >>>> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse Hybrid >>>> >>>> Greetings, everyone -- >>>> >>>> Yesterday, I encountered a hybrid Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted >>>> Titmouse during my weekly survey of the Clinton Lake area in De >>>> Witt County, Illinois. >>>> >>>> Two photos of the hybrid can be seen at this Illinois Birders' >>>> Forum link: >>>> >>>> http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=33667.0 >>>> >>>> From what I have tried to learn about this hybrid combination, >>>> it seems somewhat unusual to rare (this was my first in about 37 >>>> years of birding, and I could only find two recent literature >>>> references, plus a WBU sighting reference). I am just wondering >>>> how unusual is this combination? If anyone has any feedback, >>>> please feel free to reply here or backchannel at will. >>>> >>>> Thanks! >>>> >>>> Matt Fraker >>>> Bloomington, Illinois >>>> 03/12/10 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 >>>> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html >>>> >>>> Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 >>>> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html >>>> >>> >>> Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 >>> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html >>> >> >> -- >> Cliff and Lisa Weisse >> Island Park, Idaho >> cliffandlisa AT octobersetters.com >> Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 >> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html >> > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse Hybrid From: Matt Fraker <frakerpovc AT AOL.COM> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 17:44:54 -0500 When I first saw this bird, which was at about 10 feet, it flashcarded as a Black-capped Chickadee; part of this was due to the dirtier tones to the back (which, unfortunately, I did not get any photos of) but also due to the strong line across the face, the dark cap which initially presented flat (which made that area darker) and the dusky area under the chin. I did not notice the wing pattern; I assumed I was looking at a Chickadee (this bird) and a Titmouse (3 feet to its right), but even with the naked eye, I could see something was "wrong" with the Chickadee. So from an observer's point, this was a bird that presented more like a Chickadee than a Titmouse. Honestly, after the sighting, I expected that I would be arguing against odd Chickadee; but that was with the benefit of the full sighting, which was something I did not include in my original report -- my apologies. Matt Fraker -----Original Message----- From: Allen T. Chartier To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Sat, Mar 13, 2010 9:38 am Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse Hybrid I too was wondering about the chin, but as a bander I see a lot of bird with white underparts that show dark bases to the feathers, and the absence of some throat feathers could create this effect. Or, staining from sap... Allen T. Chartier amazilia1(at)comcast.net Inkster, Michigan, USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Stackhouse To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 12:12 PM Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse Hybrid The dark area on the chin was one of the things that I was hoping to get some input from the observer - I'm having a hard time deciding if those are actually black feathers on the chin, or dark gray (something that may be within the normal variation). The definition and shape of the line between the cap and the cheek do suggest a chickadee. I was mistaken in my geography in thinking that De Witt County was in the southern part of the state, rather than the central. An interesting bird, in any event. Mark Stackhouse mark AT westwings.com from Mexico: 01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit) 001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico) from U.S. 011-52-323-285-1243 or 1-801-518-5618 On Mar 13, 2010, at 9:59 AM, Cliff and Lisa Weisse wrote: First I have very little experience with Tufted/Black-crested Titmouse and I'm totally unfamiliar with variation in the species. That said, in addition to the extensive black on the crest isn't there a hint of a black bib? Even lightened in photoshop the chin and throat look dusky gray to me, suggesting a shadow of the black bib that's consistent in shape and extent with BC Chickadee. I don't think it's an artifact of lighting. Is this normally shown by Tufted Titmouse? Also wouldn't an intergrade with Black-crested by very unlikely that far north? Cliff Mark Stackhouse wrote: I had about the same reaction - is this clearly a hybrid, or is this normal variation, and if it is a hybrid, is Black-capped Chickadee really the other parent? Could the other parent be Black-crested Titmouse, something much more likely? Perhaps a more detailed description from the observer would help. Mark Stackhouse mark AT westwings.com from Mexico: 01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit) 001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico) from U.S. 011-52-323-285-1243 or 1-801-518-5618 On Mar 13, 2010, at 9:17 AM, Allen T. Chartier wrote: Perhaps it is just me, but I'm having trouble seeing any characters other than titmouse in these photos. The bird does have a short crest (wear?) and slightly more black on the forehead than normal (variation?), but where are the chickadee characters? Allen T. Chartier amazilia1(at)comcast.net Inkster, Michigan, USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Matt Fraker To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 9:31 AM Subject: [BIRDWG01] Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse Hybrid Greetings, everyone -- Yesterday, I encountered a hybrid Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse during my weekly survey of the Clinton Lake area in De Witt County, Illinois. Two photos of the hybrid can be seen at this Illinois Birders' Forum link: http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=33667.0 From what I have tried to learn about this hybrid combination, it seems somewhat unusual to rare (this was my first in about 37 years of birding, and I could only find two recent literature references, plus a WBU sighting reference). I am just wondering how unusual is this combination? If anyone has any feedback, please feel free to reply here or backchannel at will. Thanks! Matt Fraker Bloomington, Illinois 03/12/10 Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html -- liff and Lisa Weisse sland Park, Idaho liffandlisa AT octobersetters.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse Hybrid From: "Allen T. Chartier" <amazilia1 AT COMCAST.NET> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 12:38:44 -0500 I too was wondering about the chin, but as a bander I see a lot of bird with white underparts that show dark bases to the feathers, and the absence of some throat feathers could create this effect. Or, staining from sap... Allen T. Chartier amazilia1(at)comcast.net Inkster, Michigan, USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Stackhouse To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 12:12 PM Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse Hybrid The dark area on the chin was one of the things that I was hoping to get some input from the observer - I'm having a hard time deciding if those are actually black feathers on the chin, or dark gray (something that may be within the normal variation). The definition and shape of the line between the cap and the cheek do suggest a chickadee. I was mistaken in my geography in thinking that De Witt County was in the southern part of the state, rather than the central. An interesting bird, in any event. Mark Stackhouse mark AT westwings.com from Mexico: 01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit) 001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico) from U.S. 011-52-323-285-1243 or 1-801-518-5618 On Mar 13, 2010, at 9:59 AM, Cliff and Lisa Weisse wrote: First I have very little experience with Tufted/Black-crested Titmouse and I'm totally unfamiliar with variation in the species. That said, in addition to the extensive black on the crest isn't there a hint of a black bib? Even lightened in photoshop the chin and throat look dusky gray to me, suggesting a shadow of the black bib that's consistent in shape and extent with BC Chickadee. I don't think it's an artifact of lighting. Is this normally shown by Tufted Titmouse? Also wouldn't an intergrade with Black-crested by very unlikely that far north? Cliff Mark Stackhouse wrote: I had about the same reaction - is this clearly a hybrid, or is this normal variation, and if it is a hybrid, is Black-capped Chickadee really the other parent? Could the other parent be Black-crested Titmouse, something much more likely? Perhaps a more detailed description from the observer would help. Mark Stackhouse mark AT westwings.com from Mexico: 01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit) 001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico) from U.S. 011-52-323-285-1243 or 1-801-518-5618 On Mar 13, 2010, at 9:17 AM, Allen T. Chartier wrote: Perhaps it is just me, but I'm having trouble seeing any characters other than titmouse in these photos. The bird does have a short crest (wear?) and slightly more black on the forehead than normal (variation?), but where are the chickadee characters? Allen T. Chartier amazilia1(at)comcast.net Inkster, Michigan, USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Matt Fraker To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 9:31 AM Subject: [BIRDWG01] Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse Hybrid Greetings, everyone -- Yesterday, I encountered a hybrid Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse during my weekly survey of the Clinton Lake area in De Witt County, Illinois. Two photos of the hybrid can be seen at this Illinois Birders' Forum link: http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=33667.0 From what I have tried to learn about this hybrid combination, it seems somewhat unusual to rare (this was my first in about 37 years of birding, and I could only find two recent literature references, plus a WBU sighting reference). I am just wondering how unusual is this combination? If anyone has any feedback, please feel free to reply here or backchannel at will. Thanks! Matt Fraker Bloomington, Illinois 03/12/10 Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html -- Cliff and Lisa Weisse Island Park, Idaho cliffandlisa AT octobersetters.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse Hybrid From: Mark Stackhouse <westwings AT SISNA.COM> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 10:12:35 -0700 The dark area on the chin was one of the things that I was hoping to get some input from the observer - I'm having a hard time deciding if those are actually black feathers on the chin, or dark gray (something that may be within the normal variation). The definition and shape of the line between the cap and the cheek do suggest a chickadee. I was mistaken in my geography in thinking that De Witt County was in the southern part of the state, rather than the central. An interesting bird, in any event. Mark Stackhouse mark AT westwings.com from Mexico: 01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit) 001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico) from U.S. 011-52-323-285-1243 or 1-801-518-5618 On Mar 13, 2010, at 9:59 AM, Cliff and Lisa Weisse wrote: > First I have very little experience with Tufted/Black-crested > Titmouse and I'm totally unfamiliar with variation in the species. > That said, in addition to the extensive black on the crest isn't > there a hint of a black bib? Even lightened in photoshop the chin > and throat look dusky gray to me, suggesting a shadow of the black > bib that's consistent in shape and extent with BC Chickadee. I > don't think it's an artifact of lighting. Is this normally shown by > Tufted Titmouse? > > Also wouldn't an intergrade with Black-crested by very unlikely that > far north? > > Cliff > > Mark Stackhouse wrote: >> >> I had about the same reaction - is this clearly a hybrid, or is >> this normal variation, and if it is a hybrid, is Black-capped >> Chickadee really the other parent? Could the other parent be Black- >> crested Titmouse, something much more likely? >> >> Perhaps a more detailed description from the observer would help. >> >> Mark Stackhouse >> mark AT westwings.com >> from Mexico: >> 01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit) >> 001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico) >> from U.S. >> 011-52-323-285-1243 or >> 1-801-518-5618 >> >> >> >> >> On Mar 13, 2010, at 9:17 AM, Allen T. Chartier wrote: >> >>> Perhaps it is just me, but I'm having trouble seeing any >>> characters other than titmouse in these photos. The bird does have >>> a short crest (wear?) and slightly more black on the forehead than >>> normal (variation?), but where are the chickadee characters? >>> >>> Allen T. Chartier >>> amazilia1(at)comcast.net >>> Inkster, Michigan, USA >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Matt Fraker >>> To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU >>> Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 9:31 AM >>> Subject: [BIRDWG01] Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse Hybrid >>> >>> Greetings, everyone -- >>> >>> Yesterday, I encountered a hybrid Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted >>> Titmouse during my weekly survey of the Clinton Lake area in De >>> Witt County, Illinois. >>> >>> Two photos of the hybrid can be seen at this Illinois Birders' >>> Forum link: >>> >>> http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=33667.0 >>> >>> From what I have tried to learn about this hybrid combination, it >>> seems somewhat unusual to rare (this was my first in about 37 >>> years of birding, and I could only find two recent literature >>> references, plus a WBU sighting reference). I am just wondering >>> how unusual is this combination? If anyone has any feedback, >>> please feel free to reply here or backchannel at will. >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Matt Fraker >>> Bloomington, Illinois >>> 03/12/10 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 >>> >>> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html >>> >>> >>> Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 >>> >>> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html >>> >>> >> >> Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 >> >> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html >> >> > > -- > Cliff and Lisa Weisse > Island Park, Idaho > cliffandlisa AT octobersetters.com > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse Hybrid From: Matthew Winks <fluidfive AT HOTMAIL.COM> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 11:02:28 -0600 Hi all, What look like good chickadee characters to me are the clean line between the cap and the cheek. The lack of a strong crest and the inference of a black bib suggest chickadee parentage as well. Regards, Matthew Winks Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 11:17:21 -0500 From: amazilia1 AT COMCAST.NET Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse Hybrid To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Perhaps it is just me, but I'm having trouble seeing any characters other than titmouse in these photos. The bird does have a short crest (wear?) and slightly more black on the forehead than normal (variation?), but where are the chickadee characters? Allen T. Chartier amazilia1(at)comcast.net Inkster, Michigan, USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Matt Fraker To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 9:31 AM Subject: [BIRDWG01] Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse Hybrid Greetings, everyone -- Yesterday, I encountered a hybrid Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse during my weekly survey of the Clinton Lake area in De Witt County, Illinois. Two photos of the hybrid can be seen at this Illinois Birders' Forum link: http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=33667.0 From what I have tried to learn about this hybrid combination, it seems somewhat unusual to rare (this was my first in about 37 years of birding, and I could only find two recent literature references, plus a WBU sighting reference). I am just wondering how unusual is this combination? If anyone has any feedback, please feel free to reply here or backchannel at will. Thanks! Matt Fraker Bloomington, Illinois 03/12/10 Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/210850553/direct/01/ Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse Hybrid From: Cliff and Lisa Weisse <CliffandLisa AT OCTOBERSETTERS.COM> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 09:59:01 -0700 First I have very little experience with Tufted/Black-crested Titmouse and I'm totally unfamiliar with variation in the species. That said, in addition to the extensive black on the crest isn't there a hint of a black bib? Even lightened in photoshop the chin and throat look dusky gray to me, suggesting a shadow of the black bib that's consistent in shape and extent with BC Chickadee. I don't think it's an artifact of lighting. Is this normally shown by Tufted Titmouse? Also wouldn't an intergrade with Black-crested by very unlikely that far north? Cliff Mark Stackhouse wrote: > I had about the same reaction - is this clearly a hybrid, or is this > normal variation, and if it is a hybrid, is Black-capped Chickadee > really the other parent? Could the other parent be Black-crested > Titmouse, something much more likely? > > Perhaps a more detailed description from the observer would help. > > Mark Stackhouse > mark AT westwings.com > from Mexico: > 01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit) > 001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico) > from U.S. > 011-52-323-285-1243 or > 1-801-518-5618 > > > > > On Mar 13, 2010, at 9:17 AM, Allen T. Chartier wrote: > >> Perhaps it is just me, but I'm having trouble seeing any characters >> other than titmouse in these photos. The bird does have a short crest >> (wear?) and slightly more black on the forehead than normal >> (variation?), but where are the chickadee characters? >> >> Allen T. Chartier >> amazilia1(at)comcast.net >> Inkster, Michigan, USA >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Matt Fraker >> *To:* BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU >> >> *Sent:* Saturday, March 13, 2010 9:31 AM >> *Subject:* [BIRDWG01] Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse Hybrid >> >> Greetings, everyone -- >> >> Yesterday, I encountered a hybrid Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted >> Titmouse during my weekly survey of the Clinton Lake area in De >> Witt County, Illinois. >> >> Two photos of the hybrid can be seen at this Illinois Birders' >> Forum link: >> >> http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=33667.0 >> >> From what I have tried to learn about this hybrid combination, >> it seems somewhat unusual to rare (this was my first in about 37 >> years of birding, and I could only find two recent literature >> references, plus a WBU sighting reference). I am just wondering >> how unusual is this combination? If anyone has any >> feedback, please feel free to reply here or backchannel at will. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Matt Fraker >> Bloomington, Illinois >> 03/12/10 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Join or Leave >> BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 >> >> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html >> >> >> Join or Leave >> BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 >> >> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html >> >> > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > -- Cliff and Lisa Weisse Island Park, Idaho cliffandlisa AT octobersetters.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse Hybrid From: Mark Stackhouse <westwings AT SISNA.COM> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 09:33:31 -0700 I had about the same reaction - is this clearly a hybrid, or is this normal variation, and if it is a hybrid, is Black-capped Chickadee really the other parent? Could the other parent be Black-crested Titmouse, something much more likely? Perhaps a more detailed description from the observer would help. Mark Stackhouse mark AT westwings.com from Mexico: 01-323-285-1243 (San Blas, Nayarit) 001-801-518-5618 (cellular - U.S. and Mexico) from U.S. 011-52-323-285-1243 or 1-801-518-5618 On Mar 13, 2010, at 9:17 AM, Allen T. Chartier wrote: > Perhaps it is just me, but I'm having trouble seeing any characters > other than titmouse in these photos. The bird does have a short > crest (wear?) and slightly more black on the forehead than normal > (variation?), but where are the chickadee characters? > > Allen T. Chartier > amazilia1(at)comcast.net > Inkster, Michigan, USA > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Matt Fraker > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU > Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 9:31 AM > Subject: [BIRDWG01] Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse Hybrid > > Greetings, everyone -- > > Yesterday, I encountered a hybrid Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted > Titmouse during my weekly survey of the Clinton Lake area in De Witt > County, Illinois. > > Two photos of the hybrid can be seen at this Illinois Birders' Forum > link: > > http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=33667.0 > > From what I have tried to learn about this hybrid combination, it > seems somewhat unusual to rare (this was my first in about 37 years > of birding, and I could only find two recent literature references, > plus a WBU sighting reference). I am just wondering how unusual is > this combination? If anyone has any feedback, please feel free to > reply here or backchannel at will. > > Thanks! > > Matt Fraker > Bloomington, Illinois > 03/12/10 > > > > > > > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse Hybrid From: "Allen T. Chartier" <amazilia1 AT COMCAST.NET> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 11:17:21 -0500 Perhaps it is just me, but I'm having trouble seeing any characters other than titmouse in these photos. The bird does have a short crest (wear?) and slightly more black on the forehead than normal (variation?), but where are the chickadee characters? Allen T. Chartier amazilia1(at)comcast.net Inkster, Michigan, USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Matt Fraker To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 9:31 AM Subject: [BIRDWG01] Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse Hybrid Greetings, everyone -- Yesterday, I encountered a hybrid Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse during my weekly survey of the Clinton Lake area in De Witt County, Illinois. Two photos of the hybrid can be seen at this Illinois Birders' Forum link: http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=33667.0 From what I have tried to learn about this hybrid combination, it seems somewhat unusual to rare (this was my first in about 37 years of birding, and I could only find two recent literature references, plus a WBU sighting reference). I am just wondering how unusual is this combination? If anyone has any feedback, please feel free to reply here or backchannel at will. Thanks! Matt Fraker Bloomington, Illinois 03/12/10 Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse Hybrid From: Timothy Spahr <tspahr AT CFA.HARVARD.EDU> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 09:39:10 -0500 Hi Matt, ID folks: There is a record of this combo from Martha's Vineyard from Vern Laux, the author of this book: Bird News: Vagrants and Visitors on a Peculiar Island (1999) I believe he called it a 'chickmouse', which I find rather catchy. And I believe this is an extremely rare combo, having not heard of any others at all. Good find and good birding, Tim Spahr On Sat, 13 Mar 2010, Matt Fraker wrote: > > > > > Greetings, everyone -- > > Yesterday, I encountered a hybrid Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse during my weekly survey of the Clinton Lake area in De Witt County, Illinois. > > Two photos of the hybrid can be seen at this Illinois Birders' Forum link: > > http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=33667.0 > > From what I have tried to learn about this hybrid combination, it seems somewhat unusual to rare (this was my first in about 37 years of birding, and I could only find two recent literature references, plus a WBU sighting reference). I am just wondering how unusual is this combination? If anyone has any feedback, please feel free to reply here or backchannel at will. > > Thanks! > > Matt Fraker > Bloomington, Illinois > 03/12/10 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > = > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse Hybrid From: Matt Fraker <frakerpovc AT AOL.COM> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 09:31:08 -0500 Greetings, everyone -- Yesterday, I encountered a hybrid Black-capped Chickadee x Tufted Titmouse during my weekly survey of the Clinton Lake area in De Witt County, Illinois. Two photos of the hybrid can be seen at this Illinois Birders' Forum link: http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=33667.0 From what I have tried to learn about this hybrid combination, it seems somewhat unusual to rare (this was my first in about 37 years of birding, and I could only find two recent literature references, plus a WBU sighting reference). I am just wondering how unusual is this combination? If anyone has any feedback, please feel free to reply here or backchannel at will. Thanks! Matt Fraker Bloomington, Illinois 03/12/10 = Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: The same Ross's Goose in Poland and in the Netherlands ? From: Marcin Faber <marfaber AT POCZTA.ONET.PL> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 12:35:15 +0100 Hello, Last week in Poland we have two records (probably the same individual) of the Ross's Goose. One of this record was well documented, see: http://www.otop-leszno.eko.org.pl/fotonotes.php and http://www.clanga.com/index.php/gallery/show/Ptaki%20rzadkie%20i%20nieliczne When I checked the gallery on dutchbirding.nl I have found that at one picture one Ross's Goose is extremally similar to the Polish bird, see: http://www.dutchbirding.nl/gallery.php?p=bigpic&gal=1&fid=1416&page=zoek (the first bird from the right) The characteristic black markings in outer secondaries have the same asymmetric location: in the right wing S1 with narrow black mark, S2 all white, S3-S5 with bold black marks; in the left wing S1 also with narrow black mark but S2-S3 all white and S4-S5 with bold black marks. So, in my opinion it is very probable that at the photos from Poland and from the Netherlands is the same bird. So asking is to the Dutch observers for better photos (for detailed comparison) of this individual, information when this bird was seen recent time in the Netherlands and of course any comments. I think that the confirmation that the Polish bird comes from the Netherlands wintering grounds will be very important from our point of view and potential genuine eastern vagrancy of this species (see van den Berg article in Dutch Birding 2004. Thank you in advance, Marcin Faber. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++* Colour Rings, Neckbands & Marks for Birds INTERREX Przybosia 5, 91-170 Lodz, POLAND.* Phone/Fax: +48 42 656 05 07 e-mail: info AT colour-rings.eu www.colour-rings.eu ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Plumage variation in Wilsonia pusilla From: Alfred Adamo <alfred.adamo AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 18:59:23 -0500 A little while ago I posted a request for opinions on subspecific identification of a Wilson's Warbler near Toronto, Canada. Although it can be identified, at least to some, fairly confidently to age and sex (AHY Male), subspecific id is inconclusive until we have a better sense on the plumage variation among the nominate spp. If anyone has access to specimens of W. pusilla taken between September and March (pre-basic molt should be complete by Sept.) I would appreciate an analysis of the plumage colouration and markings in comparison to that from the photographs taken of the Toronto's Wilson's Warbler. Specifically can AHY Males in December be as "bright" as this individual? I realize that comparisons of colour hue and intensity of faded specimens to photographs, the latter of which, although not digitally enhanced, may appear differently dependent upon the monitor where they are viewed, may make this exercise inconclusive. If anyone is up to the challenge, I can forward the original posting (with the photographs). Thank you, Alfred Adamo Toronto, Canada Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Belize_2010 From: Jerry Oldenettel <Borealowl AT AOL.COM> Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 11:29:47 EST I have posted trip notes, daylists, and imagery (~300) for last month's trip to Belize and Guatemala. The notes and daylists are on my home page at: http://sites.google.com/site/oldenettelspage/ There is a link to my flickr site or you can go directly to: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jroldenettel and click on the Belize set at the right. Sorry for any cross-postings. Jerry R. Oldenettel Socorro, NM Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: An interesting swallow in NS From: phil barnett <philbarnettox AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 06:19:44 -0800 I've had a look at some images of the Asian form, I think this is probably an American. --- On Sun, 7/3/10, Ian A. McLaren wrote: From: Ian A. McLaren Subject: [BIRDWG01] An interesting swallow in NS To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Date: Sunday, 7 March, 2010, 20:38 All Apologies for my (by now well-known) typing dyslexia. Read "Sunrise Valley" and "Pyle", possibly etc. I was born long ago when Real Men didn't type. (Can I say that?). Cheers, Ian Ian A. McLaren Biology Department Dalhousie University Halifax, NS Canada B3H 4J1 Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: An interesting swallow in NS From: phil barnett <philbarnettox AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 04:35:07 -0800 I'm not familiar with the Asian form, but I don't think this is Eurasian in that it looks fairly pinkish underneath. Ian Lewington would probably be the best person to talk about this bird. --- On Sun, 7/3/10, Ian A. McLaren wrote: From: Ian A. McLaren Subject: [BIRDWG01] An interesting swallow in NS To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Date: Sunday, 7 March, 2010, 20:38 All Apologies for my (by now well-known) typing dyslexia. Read "Sunrise Valley" and "Pyle", possibly etc. I was born long ago when Real Men didn't type. (Can I say that?). Cheers, Ian Ian A. McLaren Biology Department Dalhousie University Halifax, NS Canada B3H 4J1 Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: An interesting swallow in NS From: "Ian A. McLaren" <I.A.McLaren AT DAL.CA> Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 16:38:27 -0400 All Apologies for my (by now well-known) typing dyslexia. Read "Sunrise Valley" and "Pyle", possibly etc. I was born long ago when Real Men didn't type. (Can I say that?). Cheers, Ian Ian A. McLaren Biology Department Dalhousie University Halifax, NS Canada B3H 4J1 Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: An interesting Barn Swallow in Nova Scotia From: "Ian A. McLaren" <I.A.McLaren AT DAL.CA> Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 16:12:39 -0400 All: The message below was sent to the local NS nature discussion group. The Picasa link shows three video grabs of a swallow that does indeed seem to have features of Eurasian Barn Swallow. It appeared 30 May 2009 with Tree Swallows last year at Sunrires Valley, Cape Breton. I'm trying to come to grips with the breast band, which is narrowed by the hunkered-down pose of the the rather unhappy swallow. Although it appears to be broken, there is a telling blackish patch in the middle of the band, which seems to be unlikely for an American. Also, the breastband on either side of this central blackish patch seems grayish rather than rather than rufous. I wonder if that could be retained juvenile breast-band feathering at this season? The Asian gutttarlis might fit, as it is said (pile) to have a broken band. But is that necessry? The observer/photographer sent me about 10 MB of original video, but it doesn't reveal anything not shown on the grabs. Too bad it didn't stretch its neck on the video. Over to those with more experience . . . Cheers, Ian Ian A. McLaren Biology Department Dalhousie University Halifax, NS Canada B3H 4J1 Reply-To: naturens AT chebucto.ns.ca Subject: [NatureNS] FW: photo ID's? To: NS NATURE Hi All, I'm catching up on some video editing and have some ID questions about two birds that I thought I'd throw out for confirmation. The first is a thrush that I'm pretty sure is a Hermit but has some marks of the Bicknell's or Gray-cheeked Thrush. It hit a window so looks a little stunned. The second is a Barn Swallow; probably 1st year; that has some features of the Eurasian subspecies. It looks a little unhappy as it was raining when it made the video. If anyone wants to have a look I've uploaded them on Picasa. http://picasaweb.google.com/atlasmaritimes26/ThrushSwallow# Fritz McEvoy Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Individuo de Vallarta From: Ruben Deschamps <rdeschamps AT AVESDEMEXICO.NET> Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 12:10:46 -0600 Foto tomada ayer en Puerto Vallarta (por Eduardo Lugo)... que pareciera ser un Bunting (?)... que opinan... http://www.pajareando.com/find-id/ELC_0119_.jpg Ruben Deschamps Ebergenyi www.avesdemexico.net www.pajareando.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Vireo id From: Kristie Nelson <storm_petrel AT HOTMAIL.COM> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 16:10:49 -0800 All the discussion has been Blue-headed vs. Cassin's. What about Plumbeous? Plumbeous have sharper demarcation on the throat than Cassin's, and can give an almost Blue-headed look to the throat contrast, at least to me. They just lack any bright color so Blue-headed vs. Plumbeous is usually not an issue. With this bird, it's hard to tell what the flight-feather edges are, and although it looks a tad bright to be a Plumbeous, I think its a likely possibility. Plumbeous can have a touch of color in the lower flanks in fresh, bright birds. I don't know about Plumbeous and their outer rectrix color (but even Cassin's can have pale, just not shining white, outer rec. edges!). -- Kristie Nelson > Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 10:44:50 -0800 > From: jmorlan AT GMAIL.COM > Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Vireo id > To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU > > On Fri, 26 Feb 2010 18:39:52 +0100, Marcelo Brongo > wrote: > > >Sorry for the link. This one is public: > >http://www.monalbum.ca/data/1471/vireoid.jpg > > I think it's probably an overexposed Blue-headed Vireo. The exposure is > off, making it look too pale. Are there any written notes from the > observer that might help with the true coloration. > > I'm leaning toward's Blue-headed on this bird partly because there appears > to be a nice crisp white outer web to the outermost rectrix. Also the > malar pattern is better for Blue-headed. > > -- > Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA jmorlan (at) ccsf.edu > SF Birding Classes start Feb.9 http://fog.ccsf.edu/jmorlan/ > California Bird Records Committee http://www.californiabirds.org/ > Western Field Ornithologists http://www.westernfieldornithologists.org/ > > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > > Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469226/direct/01/ Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Vireo id From: Jim Pike <jpike44 AT EARTHLINK.NET> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 16:42:15 -0700 Hi, Based predominantly on the sharp demarcation between the throat and cheek, I suspect that this bird is a Blue-headed. However, having looked at several series of photos in recent years of dull (presumed) Blue-headeds from the Farallons, I'd urge caution in forming a conclusion based on one photograph. I can think of one recent bird (a dull hatch-year female) in particular that displayed a crisp cheek/throat contrast in some photos and a diffuse interface in others. That bird, however, also showed a broad yellow band across the vent, which I don't see in this bird. I agree with Nick in not wanting to put a name on this individual. Jim Pike Huntington Beach, CA Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Vireo id From: Steven Mlodinow <sgmlod AT AOL.COM> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 16:14:16 -0500 More relevant than BH Vireos captured on the Farallones, perhaps, would be pics from the eastern USA where there is close to zero chance of mis-identification or hybridization Cheers Steve Mlodinow -----Original Message----- From: Matt Brady To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:56 pm Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Vireo id Matt Heindel wrote a very good article in Birding about separating Blue-headed and Cassin's Vireos ( Heindel, M. 1996. Field Identification of the Solitary Vireo Complex. Birding 28:458-471). The main things I got from the article is that the most critical field marks are how clean the cut-off between the gray cheeks and the white throat is, and how white the throat is. I've added a few more shots to my Flickr page of dull Blue-headed Vireos, of two more individuals from Southeast Farallon Island and put them into a gallery, at . I also uploaded a just-for-fun mystery bird: Matt Brady From: Allen T. Chartier To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Fri, February 26, 2010 10:57:02 AM Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Vireo id I agree with Nick that at least one (or both) photos that Matt posted links to appear brighter than the Mexican vireo. But it could be a matter of exposure in the photo too. If this Mexican vireo popped into my mistnets here in Michigan I would give it a very thorough going-over as it is duller (not just paler) and less contrasty than I'd consider even for the dull extreme for Blue-headed. Allen T. Chartier amazilia1(at)comcast.net Inkster, Michigan, USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Lethaby, Nick To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 1:45 PM Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Vireo id All: IMO, the second link Matt posted shows a much brighter bird (than the one from Mexico ) and is a no-brainer Blue-headed. Based on my limited experience, I feel this bird falls into “the can’t be sure range” between bright Cassin’s and dull Blue-headed. I agree with Matt that the completely clean gray head, with no invasion of green, favors a Blue-headed, but I have certainly seen at least 3 birds I have called Cassin’s in CA that were this white below, had a similar limited area of greenish-yellow on the flanks, and had a fairly extensively gray head. Of course I may have been misidentifying BHVIs. If I saw this bird in CA I would definitely take a close look at it and consider BHVI but probably not claim it or default to a bright Cassin’s. I’d be very interested in others opinions on this bird. Nick From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU ] On Behalf Of Matt Brady Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 10:22 AM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Vireo id This looks like the "typical" dull Blue-headed Vireos we seem to get every fall on Southeast Farallon Island . The clear contrast between the gray cheeks and the clean white throat, the cleanly gray head contrasting with the green shoulders, bright white edges to the tertials and the bright yellow flanks all help to separate this individual from a bright Cassin's Vireo. A couple of photos of Blue-headed Vireos that have been accepted by the CBRC from Southeast Farallon Island , that are as dull (or duller) than this bird can be seen here: and here: Matt Brady From: Allen T. Chartier To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Fri, February 26, 2010 9:51:19 AM Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Vireo id Marcelo, If this is a Blue-headed Vireo it is a very dull one. Generally, solitarius has a much darker head with much more contrast to a brighter green back. The "spectacles", especially the supraloral portion, seems less distinct that it should for solitarius, and the flanks seem less yellow than they should. By elimination, that should leave Cassin's Vireo, but I have only a little personal experience with this species. Allen T. Chartier amazilia1(at)comcast.net Inkster , Michigan , USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Marcelo Brongo To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 12:39 PM Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Vireo id Sorry for the link. This one is public: http://www.monalbum.ca/data/1471/vireoid.jpg Vireo solitarius photographed in december (09), road to Parque Estanzuela, south of Monterrey , Mexico . date: 12/17/2009 - aprox.coords: N25 35.046 W100 15.974 Photo: Ruben Deschamps Ebergenyi Marcelo Brongo Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Vireo id From: Matt Brady <podoces AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 12:56:36 -0800 Matt Heindel wrote a very good article in Birding about separating Blue-headed and Cassin's Vireos ( Heindel, M. 1996. Field Identification of the Solitary Vireo Complex. Birding 28:458-471). The main things I got from the article is that the most critical field marks are how clean the cut-off between the gray cheeks and the white throat is, and how white the throat is. I've added a few more shots to my Flickr page of dull Blue-headed Vireos, of two more individuals from Southeast Farallon Island and put them into a gallery, at . I also uploaded a just-for-fun mystery bird: Matt Brady ________________________________ From: Allen T. Chartier To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Fri, February 26, 2010 10:57:02 AM Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Vireo id I agree with Nick that at least one (or both) photos that Matt posted links to appear brighter than the Mexican vireo. But it could be a matter of exposure in the photo too. If this Mexican vireo popped into my mistnets here in Michigan I would give it a very thorough going-over as it is duller (not just paler) and less contrasty than I'd consider even for the dull extreme for Blue-headed. Allen T. Chartier amazilia1(at)comcast.net Inkster, Michigan, USA ----- Original Message ----- >From: Lethaby, Nick >To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU >Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 1:45 > PM >Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Vireo id > > >All: > >IMO, the second link > Matt posted shows a much brighter bird (than the one from > Mexico ) and is > a no-brainer Blue-headed. > >Based on my limited > experience, I feel this bird falls into “the can’t be sure range” between > bright Cassin’s and dull Blue-headed. I agree with Matt that the completely > clean gray head, with no invasion of green, favors a Blue-headed, but I have > certainly seen at least 3 birds I have called Cassin’s in CA that were this > white below, had a similar limited area of greenish-yellow on the flanks, and > had a fairly extensively gray head. Of course I may have been misidentifying > BHVIs. > >If I saw this bird in > CA I would definitely take a close look at it and consider BHVI but probably > not claim it or default to a bright Cassin’s. I’d be very interested in others > opinions on this bird. > >Nick > > ________________________________ >From:NBHC > ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto: > BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU ] On Behalf Of Matt Brady >Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 10:22 > AM >To: > BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU >Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Vireo > id > >This looks like the > "typical" dull Blue-headed Vireos we seem to get every fall on > Southeast > Farallon > Island . The clear contrast between > the gray cheeks and the clean white throat, the cleanly gray head contrasting > with the green shoulders, bright white edges to the tertials and the bright > yellow flanks all help to separate this individual from a bright Cassin's > Vireo. A couple of photos of Blue-headed Vireos that have been accepted > by the CBRC from > Southeast > Farallon > Island , that are as dull (or duller) > than this bird can be seen here: > > >and > here: > > >Matt > Brady > > ________________________________ >From:Allen > T. Chartier >To: > BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU >Sent: Fri, February 26, 2010 9:51:19 > AM >Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] > Vireo id >Marcelo, > >If this is a Blue-headed Vireo it > is a very dull one. Generally, solitarius has a much darker head with much > more contrast to a brighter green back. The "spectacles", especially the > supraloral portion, seems less distinct that it should for solitarius, and the > flanks seem less yellow than they should. By elimination, that should leave > Cassin's Vireo, but I have only a little personal experience with this > species. > >Allen T. > Chartier >amazilia1(at)comcast.net >> Inkster , Michigan , > > USA >----- Original Message ----- >> >>From:Marcelo Brongo >>To:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU >>Sent:Friday, >> February 26, 2010 12:39 PM >>Subject:Re: >> [BIRDWG01] Vireo id >> >>Sorry for the link. >> This one is public: http://www.monalbum.ca/data/1471/vireoid.jpg >>Vireo solitarius >>> photographed in december (09), road to Parque Estanzuela, >>>south of >>> Monterrey , >>> Mexico . >>> date: 12/17/2009 - aprox.coords: N25 35.046 W100 >>>15.974 >>> >>>Photo: >>> Ruben Deschamps Ebergenyi >>> >>>Marcelo Brongo >> >>Join or >> Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 >>Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html >Join or > Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 >Archives: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > >Join or Leave BIRDWG01: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 >Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html >Join or Leave BIRDWG01: > http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 >Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Vireo id From: "Allen T. Chartier" <amazilia1 AT COMCAST.NET> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 13:57:02 -0500 I agree with Nick that at least one (or both) photos that Matt posted links to appear brighter than the Mexican vireo. But it could be a matter of exposure in the photo too. If this Mexican vireo popped into my mistnets here in Michigan I would give it a very thorough going-over as it is duller (not just paler) and less contrasty than I'd consider even for the dull extreme for Blue-headed. Allen T. Chartier amazilia1(at)comcast.net Inkster, Michigan, USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Lethaby, Nick To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 1:45 PM Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Vireo id All: IMO, the second link Matt posted shows a much brighter bird (than the one from Mexico) and is a no-brainer Blue-headed. Based on my limited experience, I feel this bird falls into "the can't be sure range" between bright Cassin's and dull Blue-headed. I agree with Matt that the completely clean gray head, with no invasion of green, favors a Blue-headed, but I have certainly seen at least 3 birds I have called Cassin's in CA that were this white below, had a similar limited area of greenish-yellow on the flanks, and had a fairly extensively gray head. Of course I may have been misidentifying BHVIs. If I saw this bird in CA I would definitely take a close look at it and consider BHVI but probably not claim it or default to a bright Cassin's. I'd be very interested in others opinions on this bird. Nick ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Matt Brady Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 10:22 AM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Vireo id This looks like the "typical" dull Blue-headed Vireos we seem to get every fall on Southeast Farallon Island. The clear contrast between the gray cheeks and the clean white throat, the cleanly gray head contrasting with the green shoulders, bright white edges to the tertials and the bright yellow flanks all help to separate this individual from a bright Cassin's Vireo. A couple of photos of Blue-headed Vireos that have been accepted by the CBRC from Southeast Farallon Island, that are as dull (or duller) than this bird can be seen here: and here: Matt Brady ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Allen T. Chartier To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Fri, February 26, 2010 9:51:19 AM Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Vireo id Marcelo, If this is a Blue-headed Vireo it is a very dull one. Generally, solitarius has a much darker head with much more contrast to a brighter green back. The "spectacles", especially the supraloral portion, seems less distinct that it should for solitarius, and the flanks seem less yellow than they should. By elimination, that should leave Cassin's Vireo, but I have only a little personal experience with this species. Allen T. Chartier amazilia1(at)comcast.net Inkster, Michigan, USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Marcelo Brongo To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 12:39 PM Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Vireo id Sorry for the link. This one is public: http://www.monalbum.ca/data/1471/vireoid.jpg Vireo solitarius photographed in december (09), road to Parque Estanzuela, south of Monterrey, Mexico. date: 12/17/2009 - aprox.coords: N25 35.046 W100 15.974 Photo: Ruben Deschamps Ebergenyi Marcelo Brongo Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Vireo id From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 12:45:12 -0600 All: IMO, the second link Matt posted shows a much brighter bird (than the one from Mexico) and is a no-brainer Blue-headed. Based on my limited experience, I feel this bird falls into "the can't be sure range" between bright Cassin's and dull Blue-headed. I agree with Matt that the completely clean gray head, with no invasion of green, favors a Blue-headed, but I have certainly seen at least 3 birds I have called Cassin's in CA that were this white below, had a similar limited area of greenish-yellow on the flanks, and had a fairly extensively gray head. Of course I may have been misidentifying BHVIs. If I saw this bird in CA I would definitely take a close look at it and consider BHVI but probably not claim it or default to a bright Cassin's. I'd be very interested in others opinions on this bird. Nick ________________________________ From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Matt Brady Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 10:22 AM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Vireo id This looks like the "typical" dull Blue-headed Vireos we seem to get every fall on Southeast Farallon Island. The clear contrast between the gray cheeks and the clean white throat, the cleanly gray head contrasting with the green shoulders, bright white edges to the tertials and the bright yellow flanks all help to separate this individual from a bright Cassin's Vireo. A couple of photos of Blue-headed Vireos that have been accepted by the CBRC from Southeast Farallon Island, that are as dull (or duller) than this bird can be seen here: and here: Matt Brady ________________________________ From: Allen T. Chartier To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Fri, February 26, 2010 9:51:19 AM Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Vireo id Marcelo, If this is a Blue-headed Vireo it is a very dull one. Generally, solitarius has a much darker head with much more contrast to a brighter green back. The "spectacles", especially the supraloral portion, seems less distinct that it should for solitarius, and the flanks seem less yellow than they should. By elimination, that should leave Cassin's Vireo, but I have only a little personal experience with this species. Allen T. Chartier amazilia1(at)comcast.net Inkster, Michigan, USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Marcelo Brongo To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 12:39 PM Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Vireo id Sorry for the link. This one is public: http://www.monalbum.ca/data/1471/vireoid.jpg Vireo solitarius photographed in december (09), road to Parque Estanzuela, south of Monterrey, Mexico. date: 12/17/2009 - aprox.coords: N25 35.046 W100 15.974 Photo: Ruben Deschamps Ebergenyi Marcelo Brongo Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Vireo id From: Joseph Morlan <jmorlan AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 10:44:50 -0800 On Fri, 26 Feb 2010 18:39:52 +0100, Marcelo Brongo wrote: >Sorry for the link. This one is public: >http://www.monalbum.ca/data/1471/vireoid.jpg I think it's probably an overexposed Blue-headed Vireo. The exposure is off, making it look too pale. Are there any written notes from the observer that might help with the true coloration. I'm leaning toward's Blue-headed on this bird partly because there appears to be a nice crisp white outer web to the outermost rectrix. Also the malar pattern is better for Blue-headed. -- Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA jmorlan (at) ccsf.edu SF Birding Classes start Feb.9 http://fog.ccsf.edu/jmorlan/ California Bird Records Committee http://www.californiabirds.org/ Western Field Ornithologists http://www.westernfieldornithologists.org/ Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Vireo id From: Matt Brady <podoces AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 10:22:26 -0800 This looks like the "typical" dull Blue-headed Vireos we seem to get every fall on Southeast Farallon Island. The clear contrast between the gray cheeks and the clean white throat, the cleanly gray head contrasting with the green shoulders, bright white edges to the tertials and the bright yellow flanks all help to separate this individual from a bright Cassin's Vireo. A couple of photos of Blue-headed Vireos that have been accepted by the CBRC from Southeast Farallon Island, that are as dull (or duller) than this bird can be seen here: and here: Matt Brady ________________________________ From: Allen T. Chartier To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Fri, February 26, 2010 9:51:19 AM Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Vireo id Marcelo, If this is a Blue-headed Vireo it is a very dull one. Generally, solitarius has a much darker head with much more contrast to a brighter green back. The "spectacles", especially the supraloral portion, seems less distinct that it should for solitarius, and the flanks seem less yellow than they should. By elimination, that should leave Cassin's Vireo, but I have only a little personal experience with this species. Allen T. Chartier amazilia1(at)comcast.net Inkster, Michigan, USA ----- Original Message ----- >From: Marcelo > Brongo >To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU >Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 12:39 > PM >Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Vireo id > >Sorry for the link. This one is public: http://www.monalbum.ca/data/1471/vireoid.jpg > > >Vireo solitarius photographed in december (09), road to Parque >> Estanzuela, >>south of Monterrey, Mexico. date: 12/17/2009 - aprox.coords: >> N25 35.046 W100 >>15.974 >> >>Photo: Ruben Deschamps >> Ebergenyi >> >>Marcelo Brongo >> >> > >Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > >Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Vireo id From: "Allen T. Chartier" <amazilia1 AT COMCAST.NET> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 12:51:19 -0500 Marcelo, If this is a Blue-headed Vireo it is a very dull one. Generally, solitarius has a much darker head with much more contrast to a brighter green back. The "spectacles", especially the supraloral portion, seems less distinct that it should for solitarius, and the flanks seem less yellow than they should. By elimination, that should leave Cassin's Vireo, but I have only a little personal experience with this species. Allen T. Chartier amazilia1(at)comcast.net Inkster, Michigan, USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Marcelo Brongo To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 12:39 PM Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Vireo id Sorry for the link. This one is public: http://www.monalbum.ca/data/1471/vireoid.jpg Vireo solitarius photographed in december (09), road to Parque Estanzuela, south of Monterrey, Mexico. date: 12/17/2009 - aprox.coords: N25 35.046 W100 15.974 Photo: Ruben Deschamps Ebergenyi Marcelo Brongo Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Vireo id From: Marcelo Brongo <marcelobrongo AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 18:39:52 +0100 Sorry for the link. This one is public: http://www.monalbum.ca/data/1471/vireoid.jpg Vireo solitarius photographed in december (09), road to Parque Estanzuela, > south of Monterrey, Mexico. date: 12/17/2009 - aprox.coords: N25 35.046 > W100 > 15.974 > > Photo: Ruben Deschamps Ebergenyi > > Marcelo Brongo > > Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Vireo id From: Marcelo Brongo <marcelobrongo AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 16:13:40 +0100 Hi all, This pic appears on AvesdeMexico's list and there had been some discussion about his identity. Blue-headed or Cassin? Too dark for a Cassin? Too slaty-colored back for Blue-headed? I was wondering if it could be a "alticola ssp"?? Any opinion about this bird are welcome. Vireo solitarius photographed in december (09), road to Parque Estanzuela, south of Monterrey, Mexico. date: 12/17/2009 - aprox.coords: N25 35.046 W100 15.974 http://www.avesdemexico.net/aves/index.php?ACT=25&fid=6&aid=1774_QHXOLSKkSZe3f9GRzWPa&board_id=1 Photo: Ruben Deschamps Ebergenyi Marcelo Brongo Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Colllinsbirds.com From: Ian Paulsen <birdbooker AT ZIPCON.NET> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 10:32:38 -0800 HI ALL: I just learned about a new birding website called: Collinsbirds.com: http://www.collinsbirds.com/ It allows you to report and track sightings from around the world, not just in the United Kingdon. Other activities are also available. The normal financial disclaimers apply! sincerely -- Ian Paulsen Bainbridge Island, WA, USA " Which just goes to show that a passion for books is extremely unhealthy." from Cornelia Funke's "Inkheart". Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Thoughts on Odd Canvasback plumage From: Brian Schmidt <brdemkr AT HOTMAIL.COM> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 17:10:16 -0500 I posted a few more images of this bird in the Photobucket album. URL: http://s292.photobucket.com/albums/mm11/brdemkr/Choptank%20birds%20with%20400/Choptank%20Jan%202010/ Hyperlinked: Odd Canvasback photos -Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: Brian Schmidt To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 9:44 AM Subject: [BIRDWG01] Thoughts on Odd Canvasback plumage While photographing ducks in Maryland in January, I ran across this odd plumaged canvasback. I've searched through the Smithsonian's collection and we have no specimens with this plumage, and none of the references I've checked has this plumage described. I've contacted a few others, but they are not sure if it's a old female exhibiting male charaters, young male that didn't complete it's molt, or a hybrid (not likely because it looks like a Canvasback!). Has anyone on this list seen a bird in this plumage before and/or might know what's going on with this bird? Direct link to the photo: http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm11/brdemkr/Choptank%20birds%20with%20400/Choptank%20Jan%202010/canvasback.jpg To the album: http://s292.photobucket.com/albums/mm11/brdemkr/Choptank%20birds%20with%20400/Choptank%20Jan%202010/ Thanks! Brian Schmidt Div of Birds, Smithsonian Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Apparent hybrid sandpiper in Thailand From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 12:22:55 -0600 Not claiming it is a Dunlin either. I'm just saying the plumage looks darker than what I typically see on winter Western Sandpipers here. ________________________________ From: phil barnett [mailto:philbarnettox AT yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 10:15 AM To: phil barnett; BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU; Lethaby, Nick Subject: RE: [BIRDWG01] Apparent hybrid sandpiper in Thailand The legs look black to me (Dunlin has black legs as well), also note the rufous bit between the base of the bill and the eye. I'm sure it's not a Dunlin. --- On Wed, 24/2/10, Lethaby, Nick wrote: From: Lethaby, Nick Subject: RE: [BIRDWG01] Apparent hybrid sandpiper in Thailand To: "phil barnett" , "BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU" Date: Wednesday, 24 February, 2010, 18:07 The greenish legs, rather dark upperparts and breast all point against Western. The plumage looks closer to a Dunlin than a Western to me. ________________________________ From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU ] On Behalf Of phil barnett Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 10:00 AM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Apparent hybrid sandpiper in Thailand What about Western Sandpiper? Cheers, Phil 1 AT SNET.NET> wrote: From: Julian Hough Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Apparent hybrid sandpiper in Thailand To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Date: Tuesday, 23 February, 2010, 22:46 Dave, Hope all is well...I'm not sure if I'm happy you didn't show any Spoon-billed Sands since I need that! Seems the way things are going, it'll be extinct soon :( Interesting bird..I don't know much about hybrids but I think based on shape at least in some of the images, Red-necked Stint would be a possible parent, given the location, but also the fact that the central tailed feathers stick out beyond the wingpoint, a feature often visible on Red-necked Stints. The rest of the bird looks rather Dunlin-like, with the long bill and long legs more in line with that than a stint. best, Julian Hough CT, USA jrhough1 AT snet.net www.naturescapeimages.net ----- Original Message ----- From: David Sibley To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 5:10 PM Subject: [BIRDWG01] Apparent hybrid sandpiper in Thailand Hi all, At my website - http://www.sibleyguides.com/2010/02/an-apparent-hybrid-sandpiper-in-thailand/ I've just posted photos and a description of an apparent hybrid Calidris that I saw on Feb 14 in Thailand . I have written a brief summary there of my off-the-cuff thoughts on what species might be involved. Any other thoughts would be welcome. Thanks, David Sibley Concord , MA sibleyart AT yahoo.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Apparent hybrid sandpiper in Thailand From: phil barnett <philbarnettox AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:15:20 -0800 The legs look black to me (Dunlin has black legs as well), also note the rufous bit between the base of the bill and the eye. I'm sure it's not a Dunlin. --- On Wed, 24/2/10, Lethaby, Nick wrote: From: Lethaby, Nick Subject: RE: [BIRDWG01] Apparent hybrid sandpiper in Thailand To: "phil barnett" , "BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU" Date: Wednesday, 24 February, 2010, 18:07 The greenish legs, rather dark upperparts and breast all point against Western. The plumage looks closer to a Dunlin than a Western to me.   From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU ] On Behalf Of phil barnett Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 10:00 AM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Apparent hybrid sandpiper in Thailand   What about Western Sandpiper?   Cheers,   Phil 1 AT SNET.NET> wrote: From: Julian Hough Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Apparent hybrid sandpiper in Thailand To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Date: Tuesday, 23 February, 2010, 22:46 Dave,   Hope all is well...I'm not sure if I'm happy you didn't show any Spoon-billed Sands since I need that! Seems the way things are going, it'll be extinct soon :(   Interesting bird..I don't know much about hybrids but I think based on shape at least in some of the images, Red-necked Stint would be a possible parent, given the location, but also the fact that the central tailed feathers stick out beyond the wingpoint, a feature often visible on Red-necked Stints. The rest of the bird looks rather Dunlin-like, with the long bill and long legs more in line with that than a stint.   best,   Julian Hough CT, USA jrhough1 AT snet.net   www.naturescapeimages.net ----- Original Message ----- From: David Sibley To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 5:10 PM Subject: [BIRDWG01] Apparent hybrid sandpiper in Thailand   Hi all, At my website -  http://www.sibleyguides.com/2010/02/an-apparent-hybrid-sandpiper-in-thailand/ I've just posted photos and a description of an apparent hybrid Calidris that I saw on Feb 14 in Thailand . I have written a brief summary there of my off-the-cuff thoughts on what species might be involved. Any other thoughts would be welcome. Thanks, David Sibley Concord , MA sibleyart AT yahoo.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html   Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Apparent hybrid sandpiper in Thailand From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 12:07:23 -0600 The greenish legs, rather dark upperparts and breast all point against Western. The plumage looks closer to a Dunlin than a Western to me. ________________________________ From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of phil barnett Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 10:00 AM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Apparent hybrid sandpiper in Thailand What about Western Sandpiper? Cheers, Phil 1 AT SNET.NET> wrote: From: Julian Hough Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Apparent hybrid sandpiper in Thailand To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Date: Tuesday, 23 February, 2010, 22:46 Dave, Hope all is well...I'm not sure if I'm happy you didn't show any Spoon-billed Sands since I need that! Seems the way things are going, it'll be extinct soon :( Interesting bird..I don't know much about hybrids but I think based on shape at least in some of the images, Red-necked Stint would be a possible parent, given the location, but also the fact that the central tailed feathers stick out beyond the wingpoint, a feature often visible on Red-necked Stints. The rest of the bird looks rather Dunlin-like, with the long bill and long legs more in line with that than a stint. best, Julian Hough CT, USA jrhough1 AT snet.net www.naturescapeimages.net ----- Original Message ----- From: David Sibley To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 5:10 PM Subject: [BIRDWG01] Apparent hybrid sandpiper in Thailand Hi all, At my website - http://www.sibleyguides.com/2010/02/an-apparent-hybrid-sandpiper-in-thailand/ I've just posted photos and a description of an apparent hybrid Calidris that I saw on Feb 14 in Thailand. I have written a brief summary there of my off-the-cuff thoughts on what species might be involved. Any other thoughts would be welcome. Thanks, David Sibley Concord, MA sibleyart AT yahoo.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Apparent hybrid sandpiper in Thailand From: phil barnett <philbarnettox AT YAHOO.COM> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 09:59:53 -0800 What about Western Sandpiper?   Cheers,   Phil 1 AT SNET.NET> wrote: From: Julian Hough Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Apparent hybrid sandpiper in Thailand To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Date: Tuesday, 23 February, 2010, 22:46 Dave,   Hope all is well...I'm not sure if I'm happy you didn't show any Spoon-billed Sands since I need that! Seems the way things are going, it'll be extinct soon :(   Interesting bird..I don't know much about hybrids but I think based on shape at least in some of the images, Red-necked Stint would be a possible parent, given the location, but also the fact that the central tailed feathers stick out beyond the wingpoint, a feature often visible on Red-necked Stints. The rest of the bird looks rather Dunlin-like, with the long bill and long legs more in line with that than a stint.   best,   Julian Hough CT, USA jrhough1 AT snet.net   www.naturescapeimages.net ----- Original Message ----- From: David Sibley To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 5:10 PM Subject: [BIRDWG01] Apparent hybrid sandpiper in Thailand Hi all, At my website -  http://www.sibleyguides.com/2010/02/an-apparent-hybrid-sandpiper-in-thailand/ I've just posted photos and a description of an apparent hybrid Calidris that I saw on Feb 14 in Thailand. I have written a brief summary there of my off-the-cuff thoughts on what species might be involved. Any other thoughts would be welcome. Thanks, David Sibley Concord, MA sibleyart AT yahoo.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Thoughts on Odd Canvasback plumage From: Brian Schmidt <brdemkr AT HOTMAIL.COM> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:44:29 -0500 While photographing ducks in Maryland in January, I ran across this odd plumaged canvasback. I've searched through the Smithsonian's collection and we have no specimens with this plumage, and none of the references I've checked has this plumage described. I've contacted a few others, but they are not sure if it's a old female exhibiting male charaters, young male that didn't complete it's molt, or a hybrid (not likely because it looks like a Canvasback!). Has anyone on this list seen a bird in this plumage before and/or might know what's going on with this bird? Direct link to the photo: http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm11/brdemkr/Choptank%20birds%20with%20400/Choptank%20Jan%202010/canvasback.jpg To the album: http://s292.photobucket.com/albums/mm11/brdemkr/Choptank%20birds%20with%20400/Choptank%20Jan%202010/ Thanks! Brian Schmidt Div of Birds, Smithsonian Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Indigo or Lazuli bunting From: Kevin Karlson <karlson3 AT COMCAST.NET> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 03:37:53 +0000 Indigo or Lazuli? All: I have read the interesting comments posted for this bird, but wanted to add a few comments on the structure of these two species that might be relevant. When I first opened these photo links, I immediately thought Indigo Bunting before looking at any plumage details, and not because I live in the East (sorry Nick). Indigo Bunting has a stockier, more chest-heavy body structure than Lazuli, with a blockier head shape and more bull-necked impression. Lazuli is a more slender bird overall, with a smaller, rounder head and less "chesty" body structure. A shorter tail in Indigo further adds to the stockier body shape impression, and the longer wings and tail in Lazuli contribute to its more slender, attenuated appearance. These structural differences are what immediately gave me the impression of Indigo rather than Lazuli bunting at first glance. I then compared photos that I have taken of both species, both male and female, which further supported my original impression of the overall shape and structure of this bird (see digitized comparison of both species at: http://www.kevinkarlsonphotography.com/gallery/v/Sparrows/buntings/Indigo+Bunting_+ad+female+April+_L__+Lazuli+Bunting_+August_+AZ.jpg.html I think that the Lazuli Bunting in this shot taken near Kino Springs, Arizona in mid-August is a worn adult female, but I am not 100 percent sure and really wanted to point out the structural differences and not get hung up on a discussion on a mistake in sexing this bird. Young males that I photographed at the same location showed a good amount of blue feathers on the head, and a noticeable blue lesser wing covert patch and blue rump and tail, so I concluded that this was a worn female, even though field guides don't show this plumage condition. I understand that the plumage features of this Texas bird are confusing for definitively identifying this bird as either species, with underparts that are not out of line with adult female Indigo and a white wingbar and grayish sideneck consistent with Lazuli. However, the structural features seem to support Indigo more so than Lazuli. Thus the possibility of a hybrid, which is not that unusual for these two closely related species with shared geographic ranges. I just wanted to add a few comments on what I feel are pertinent structural differences between these two species without definitively throwing my hat into the ring for either one. Kevin Karlson Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Indigo or Lazuli? From: Steven Mlodinow <sgmlod AT AOL.COM> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:17:21 -0500 Greetings All I have had the pleasure of seeing many Lazuli Buntings during winter in Baja over many trips in Jan and March. I wish that I had paid more specific attention to those birds. Most seem pretty straight forward. This bird would really stand out. Most (if not all) of the female types I see in Baja have bright buff across the chest contrasting with a white belly. This bird is not nearly that well colored. The intensity of wingbars can very from fairly dull, even with a hint of brown, to rather white... but I've not seen this bird's pattern of one bright white wingbar and another that is broad with chestnut tones. Finally the white throat would definitely be an anomaly. Best Wishes Steve Mlodinow -----Original Message----- From: Lethaby, Nick To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Tue, Feb 23, 2010 5:20 pm Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Indigo or Lazuli? All: It’s interesting that we have aneast-west breakdown on this bird with ‘Team East’ going for Indigoand ‘Team West’ going for Lazuli. I would echo Peter’sthoughts about hoping this bird stays around long enough that we get furtheralong in the molt progression. I must admit that I am inclined towards a hybrid.I agree that the upperparts aren’t as strongly chestnut brown as I wouldexpect for an Indigo, although they are possibly a bit warmer than in a Lazuli.There seems to be a fair amount of grayish wash in the neck and face, whichfavors Lazuli. The underparts don’t look particularly correct for eitherspecies to me. Nick From: NBHCID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU]On Behalf Of Peter Pyle Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 20103:26 PM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Indigo orLazuli? One thing - it's an adult female by lack of "eccentric"patterns in the wing and dark primary coverts. Adult female passerines awayfrom the breeding grounds are not well known or shown in field guides. It looksbest for Lazuli to me, as adult female Indigos in fresher plumage tend to bedarker and have warmer tones to the upperparts. If it continues to hang aroundit would be interesting to see if it undergoes a prealternate molt, whichIndigos have (includes inner greater coverts, etc.) but Lazulis lack (anextensive one, at least). Peter At 10:36 AM 2/23/2010, greatgrayowl AT AOL.COM wrote: All: My first thought on this bird was that it was a hybrid, but I can see Joe'spoints, too. I guess that determination of the cause of the pale throatand chest would help in being certain of the solution, but my first take wasthe underparts pattern was intermediate between the two species. Whatever, I'd say that it's not an Indigo. Tony Leukering Villas, NJ -----Original Message----- From: Joseph Morlan To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Mon, Feb 22, 2010 12:22 pm Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Indigo or Lazuli? Dan, In my opinion, it's a Lazuli. Note the crispwhite tips to the median coverts without white or buffy lateral fringes tothese feathers. Also the light-bluish tail is typical of Lazuli. I believe the breast pattern is aberrant withfaint streaking caused by partial albinism (leucism is not really the rightword here). Another possibility is Indigo X Lazuli hybrid, butI don't see enough unequivocal Indigo features for that. On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 20:28:22 -0700, Daniel Jones wrote: >This bunting has been hanging out the pastweek at the Acacia Loop feeder >at BentsenRio Grande State Park south of Mission Texas. Is it an Indigo >or a Lazuli? > >http://i50.tinypic.com/2hg4q4o.jpg > > http://i50.tinypic.com/73o60p.jpg > >http://i50.tinypic.com/nbr9lw.jpg > > http://i50.tinypic.com/tjmh.jpg > > >Dan Jones in Weslaco, TX -- Joseph Morlan, Pacifica,CA jmorlan (at) ccsf.edu SF Birding Classes startFeb.9 http://fog.ccsf.edu/jmorlan/ California Bird Records Committee http://www.californiabirds.org/ Western FieldOrnithologists http://www.westernfieldornithologists.org/ Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Indigo or Lazuli? From: "Lethaby, Nick" <nlethaby AT TI.COM> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:20:11 -0600 All: It's interesting that we have an east-west breakdown on this bird with 'Team East' going for Indigo and 'Team West' going for Lazuli. I would echo Peter's thoughts about hoping this bird stays around long enough that we get further along in the molt progression. I must admit that I am inclined towards a hybrid. I agree that the upperparts aren't as strongly chestnut brown as I would expect for an Indigo, although they are possibly a bit warmer than in a Lazuli. There seems to be a fair amount of grayish wash in the neck and face, which favors Lazuli. The underparts don't look particularly correct for either species to me. Nick ________________________________ From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Peter Pyle Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 3:26 PM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Indigo or Lazuli? One thing - it's an adult female by lack of "eccentric" patterns in the wing and dark primary coverts. Adult female passerines away from the breeding grounds are not well known or shown in field guides. It looks best for Lazuli to me, as adult female Indigos in fresher plumage tend to be darker and have warmer tones to the upperparts. If it continues to hang around it would be interesting to see if it undergoes a prealternate molt, which Indigos have (includes inner greater coverts, etc.) but Lazulis lack (an extensive one, at least). Peter At 10:36 AM 2/23/2010, greatgrayowl AT AOL.COM wrote: All: My first thought on this bird was that it was a hybrid, but I can see Joe's points, too. I guess that determination of the cause of the pale throat and chest would help in being certain of the solution, but my first take was the underparts pattern was intermediate between the two species. Whatever, I'd say that it's not an Indigo. Tony Leukering Villas, NJ -----Original Message----- From: Joseph Morlan To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Mon, Feb 22, 2010 12:22 pm Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Indigo or Lazuli? Dan, In my opinion, it's a Lazuli. Note the crisp white tips to the median coverts without white or buffy lateral fringes to these feathers. Also the light-bluish tail is typical of Lazuli. I believe the breast pattern is aberrant with faint streaking caused by partial albinism (leucism is not really the right word here). Another possibility is Indigo X Lazuli hybrid, but I don't see enough unequivocal Indigo features for that. On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 20:28:22 -0700, Daniel Jones > wrote: >This bunting has been hanging out the past week at the Acacia Loop feeder >at Bentsen Rio Grande State Park south of Mission Texas. Is it an Indigo >or a Lazuli? > > http://i50.tinypic.com/2hg4q4o.jpg > > http://i50.tinypic.com/73o60p.jpg > > http://i50.tinypic.com/nbr9lw.jpg > > http://i50.tinypic.com/tjmh.jpg > > >Dan Jones in Weslaco, TX -- Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA jmorlan (at) ccsf.edu SF Birding Classes start Feb.9 http://fog.ccsf.edu/jmorlan/ California Bird Records Committee http://www.californiabirds.org/ Western Field Ornithologists http://www.westernfieldornithologists.org/ Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Indigo or Lazuli? From: Peter Pyle <ppyle AT BIRDPOP.ORG> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 15:26:28 -0800 One thing - it's an adult female by lack of "eccentric" patterns in the wing and dark primary coverts. Adult female passerines away from the breeding grounds are not well known or shown in field guides. It looks best for Lazuli to me, as adult female Indigos in fresher plumage tend to be darker and have warmer tones to the upperparts. If it continues to hang around it would be interesting to see if it undergoes a prealternate molt, which Indigos have (includes inner greater coverts, etc.) but Lazulis lack (an extensive one, at least). Peter At 10:36 AM 2/23/2010, greatgrayowl AT AOL.COM wrote: >All: > >My first thought on this bird was that it was a hybrid, but I can >see Joe's points, too. I guess that determination of the cause of >the pale throat and chest would help in being certain of the >solution, but my first take was the underparts pattern was >intermediate between the two species. Whatever, I'd say that it's >not an Indigo. > >Tony Leukering >Villas, NJ > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Joseph Morlan >To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU >Sent: Mon, Feb 22, 2010 12:22 pm >Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Indigo or Lazuli? > > >Dan, > >In my opinion, it's a Lazuli. Note the crisp white tips to the median >coverts without white or buffy lateral fringes to these feathers. Also the >light-bluish tail is typical of Lazuli. > >I believe the breast pattern is aberrant with faint streaking caused by >partial albinism (leucism is not really the right word here). > >Another possibility is Indigo X Lazuli hybrid, but I don't see enough >unequivocal Indigo features for that. > >On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 20:28:22 -0700, Daniel Jones ><antshrike1 AT AOL.COM> >wrote: > > >This bunting has been hanging out the past week at the Acacia Loop feeder > >at Bentsen Rio Grande State Park south of Mission Texas. Is it an Indigo > >or a Lazuli? > > > >http://i50.tinypic.com/2hg4q4o.jpg > > > >http://i50.tinypic.com/73o60p.jpg > > > >http://i50.tinypic.com/nbr9lw.jpg > > > >http://i50.tinypic.com/tjmh.jpg > > > > > >Dan Jones in Weslaco, TX > > >-- >Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA jmorlan (at) ccsf.edu >SF Birding Classes start >Feb.9 http://fog.ccsf.edu/jmorlan/ >California Bird Records >Committee http://www.californiabirds.org/ >Western Field >Ornithologists >http://www.westernfieldornithologists.org/ > > >Join or Leave BIRDWG01: >http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > >Archives: >http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html > >Join or Leave BIRDWG01: >http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 > >Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Apparent hybrid sandpiper in Thailand From: Julian Hough <jrhough1 AT SNET.NET> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:46:58 -0500 Dave, Hope all is well...I'm not sure if I'm happy you didn't show any Spoon-billed Sands since I need that! Seems the way things are going, it'll be extinct soon :( Interesting bird..I don't know much about hybrids but I think based on shape at least in some of the images, Red-necked Stint would be a possible parent, given the location, but also the fact that the central tailed feathers stick out beyond the wingpoint, a feature often visible on Red-necked Stints. The rest of the bird looks rather Dunlin-like, with the long bill and long legs more in line with that than a stint. best, Julian Hough CT, USA jrhough1 AT snet.net www.naturescapeimages.net ----- Original Message ----- From: David Sibley To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 5:10 PM Subject: [BIRDWG01] Apparent hybrid sandpiper in Thailand Hi all, At my website - http://www.sibleyguides.com/2010/02/an-apparent-hybrid-sandpiper-in-thailand/ I've just posted photos and a description of an apparent hybrid Calidris that I saw on Feb 14 in Thailand. I have written a brief summary there of my off-the-cuff thoughts on what species might be involved. Any other thoughts would be welcome. Thanks, David Sibley Concord, MA sibleyart AT yahoo.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Apparent hybrid sandpiper in Thailand From: David Sibley <david_sibley AT COMCAST.NET> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:10:54 -0500 Hi all, At my website - http://www.sibleyguides.com/2010/02/an-apparent-hybrid-sandpiper-in-thailand/ I've just posted photos and a description of an apparent hybrid Calidris that I saw on Feb 14 in Thailand. I have written a brief summary there of my off-the-cuff thoughts on what species might be involved. Any other thoughts would be welcome. Thanks, David Sibley Concord, MA sibleyart AT yahoo.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Indigo or Lazuli? From: greatgrayowl AT AOL.COM Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 13:36:28 -0500 All: My first thought on this bird was that it was a hybrid, but I can see Joe's points, too. I guess that determination of the cause of the pale throat and chest would help in being certain of the solution, but my first take was the underparts pattern was intermediate between the two species. Whatever, I'd say that it's not an Indigo. Tony Leukering Villas, NJ -----Original Message----- From: Joseph Morlan To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Mon, Feb 22, 2010 12:22 pm Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Indigo or Lazuli? Dan, In my opinion, it's a Lazuli. Note the crisp white tips to the median overts without white or buffy lateral fringes to these feathers. Also the ight-bluish tail is typical of Lazuli. I believe the breast pattern is aberrant with faint streaking caused by artial albinism (leucism is not really the right word here). Another possibility is Indigo X Lazuli hybrid, but I don't see enough nequivocal Indigo features for that. On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 20:28:22 -0700, Daniel Jones rote: >This bunting has been hanging out the past week at the Acacia Loop feeder at Bentsen Rio Grande State Park south of Mission Texas. Is it an Indigo or a Lazuli? http://i50.tinypic.com/2hg4q4o.jpg http://i50.tinypic.com/73o60p.jpg http://i50.tinypic.com/nbr9lw.jpg http://i50.tinypic.com/tjmh.jpg Dan Jones in Weslaco, TX - oseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA jmorlan (at) ccsf.edu F Birding Classes start Feb.9 http://fog.ccsf.edu/jmorlan/ alifornia Bird Records Committee http://www.californiabirds.org/ estern Field Ornithologists http://www.westernfieldornithologists.org/ oin or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Indigo or Lazuli? From: Julian Hough <jrhough1 AT SNET.NET> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 14:55:49 -0500 Tony, Aw'right mate! I didn't see any orange on the lower breast, but agree I did note the paleness of the upper median wingbar but thought that this might be due to wear? The upperpart tone seems rich and Indigo-like and may basis for plumping for Indigo is that the throat and upperbreast don't seem to fit for Lazuli, which often has a nice uniform honey-color to those areas and that seemed to override anything else for me, although I believe your points have merit. I didn't really stop to think of a hybrid either... Julian Hough CT, USA jrhough1 AT snet.net www.naturescapeimages.net ----- Original Message ----- From: greatgrayowl AT AOL.COM To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 11:23 AM Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Indigo or Lazuli? All: But what about the bit of orange on the lower breast, the strong and white (or whitish) upper wing bar, and the paler blue of rump and tail? I certainly understand why Dan posted the query. Tony Leukering Villas, NJ -----Original Message----- From: Julian Hough To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Sun, Feb 21, 2010 11:04 pm Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Indigo or Lazuli? Dan, Based on the whitish ground color to the throat and upperbreast I'd say it makes it an Indigo. best, Julian Hough CT, USA jrhough1 AT snet.net www.naturescapeimages.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Jones" To: Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 10:28 PM Subject: [BIRDWG01] Indigo or Lazuli? This bunting has been hanging out the past week at the Acacia Loop feeder at Bentsen Rio Grande State Park south of Mission Texas. Is it an Indigo or a Lazuli? http://i50.tinypic.com/2hg4q4o.jpg http://i50.tinypic.com/73o60p.jpg http://i50.tinypic.com/nbr9lw.jpg http://i50.tinypic.com/tjmh.jpg Dan Jones in Weslaco, TX Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Indigo or Lazuli? From: Joseph Morlan <jmorlan AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 09:22:28 -0800 Dan, In my opinion, it's a Lazuli. Note the crisp white tips to the median coverts without white or buffy lateral fringes to these feathers. Also the light-bluish tail is typical of Lazuli. I believe the breast pattern is aberrant with faint streaking caused by partial albinism (leucism is not really the right word here). Another possibility is Indigo X Lazuli hybrid, but I don't see enough unequivocal Indigo features for that. On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 20:28:22 -0700, Daniel Jones wrote: >This bunting has been hanging out the past week at the Acacia Loop feeder >at Bentsen Rio Grande State Park south of Mission Texas. Is it an Indigo >or a Lazuli? > >http://i50.tinypic.com/2hg4q4o.jpg > >http://i50.tinypic.com/73o60p.jpg > >http://i50.tinypic.com/nbr9lw.jpg > >http://i50.tinypic.com/tjmh.jpg > > >Dan Jones in Weslaco, TX -- Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA jmorlan (at) ccsf.edu SF Birding Classes start Feb.9 http://fog.ccsf.edu/jmorlan/ California Bird Records Committee http://www.californiabirds.org/ Western Field Ornithologists http://www.westernfieldornithologists.org/ Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Indigo or Lazuli? From: greatgrayowl AT AOL.COM Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 11:23:18 -0500 All: But what about the bit of orange on the lower breast, the strong and white (or whitish) upper wing bar, and the paler blue of rump and tail? I certainly understand why Dan posted the query. Tony Leukering Villas, NJ -----Original Message----- From: Julian Hough To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Sun, Feb 21, 2010 11:04 pm Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Indigo or Lazuli? Dan, Based on the whitish ground color to the throat and upperbreast I'd say it makes it an Indigo. best, Julian Hough CT, USA jrhough1 AT snet.net www.naturescapeimages.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Jones" To: Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 10:28 PM Subject: [BIRDWG01] Indigo or Lazuli? This bunting has been hanging out the past week at the Acacia Loop feeder at Bentsen Rio Grande State Park south of Mission Texas. Is it an Indigo or a Lazuli? http://i50.tinypic.com/2hg4q4o.jpg http://i50.tinypic.com/73o60p.jpg http://i50.tinypic.com/nbr9lw.jpg http://i50.tinypic.com/tjmh.jpg Dan Jones in Weslaco, TX Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Subject: Re: Indigo or Lazuli? From: Julian Hough <jrhough1 AT SNET.NET> Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 23:04:32 -0500 Dan, Based on the whitish ground color to the throat and upperbreast I'd say it makes it an Indigo. best, Julian Hough CT, USA jrhough1 AT snet.net www.naturescapeimages.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Jones" To: Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 10:28 PM Subject: [BIRDWG01] Indigo or Lazuli? This bunting has been hanging out the past week at the Acacia Loop feeder at Bentsen Rio Grande State Park south of Mission Texas. Is it an Indigo or a Lazuli? http://i50.tinypic.com/2hg4q4o.jpg http://i50.tinypic.com/73o60p.jpg http://i50.tinypic.com/nbr9lw.jpg http://i50.tinypic.com/tjmh.jpg Dan Jones in Weslaco, TX Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html