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12 Mar Re: Pacific Divers [Dermot Breen ] 12 Mar Re: Pacific Divers [Ian Forsyth ] 12 Mar Re: Pacific Divers [Paul Keogh ] 12 Mar Brian Carruthers [Joseph Doolan ] 11 Mar Possible new species of storm-petrel off Puerto Montt, Chile [Michael O'Keeffe ] 11 Mar Pacific Divers [Michael O'Keeffe ] 11 Mar Re: That Book [Darragh Sherwin ] 11 Mar Re: That Book [Darragh Sherwin ] 11 Mar Re: That book again [Hugh Delaney ] 10 Mar Brent/Brant [Sean Cronin ] 10 Mar Re: That book again [Steve Wing ] 10 Mar That book again [Eamonn O'Donnell ] 10 Mar Re: That Book [Kieran Fahy ] 10 Mar Re: That Book [Eugene ARCHER ] 10 Mar Re: Petrel rediscovered after 83 years [Eamonn ] 10 Mar Re: That Book ["Casey, Micheal" ] 10 Mar Petrel rediscovered after 83 years ["Fitzpatrick, Dara" ] 10 Mar Re: That Book [Eamonn ] 10 Mar Re: That Book [Eugene ARCHER ] 10 Mar Re: That Book [Eamonn ] 10 Mar Re: That Book ["Fitzpatrick, Dara" ] 10 Mar Re: That Book . . . and others [Eugene ARCHER ] 10 Mar Re: That Book . . . and others [Dermot McCabe ] 10 Mar Ballyvaughan [] 10 Mar Re: That Book . . . and others [Eugene ARCHER ] 10 Mar Re: That Book [] 10 Mar Re: That Book [Eamonn ] 10 Mar Re: That Book [] 10 Mar Re: The Kilcoole Rarities [John Coveney Birds ] 10 Mar Re: The Kilcoole Rarities [Seamus Feeney ] 10 Mar Re: That Book ["Fitzharris, Jim" ] 10 Mar Re: The Kilcoole Rarities [Martin Styles ] 10 Mar Re: The Kilcoole Rarities [Joseph Doolan ] 10 Mar Re: Coll 2nd Ed [Killian Mullarney ] 10 Mar The Kilcoole Rarities [Mícheál Casey ] 10 Mar Re: Coll 2nd Ed [Eamonn ] 10 Mar Re: Fantasy Birding [Eamonn ] 10 Mar Coll 2nd Ed [Liam O'Brien ] 10 Mar Re: Fantasy Birding [John Coveney Birds ] 10 Mar Re: That Book [Richard Mills ] 10 Mar Re: Glasses found at Lough Gur [Martin Styles ] 10 Mar Re: That Book [Killian Mullarney ] 9 Mar Re: That Book [Richard Mills ] 9 Mar Re: Zitting Cisticola at Kilcoole? [Lee G R Evans ] 9 Mar Re: That Book [Eamonn O'Donnell ] 9 Mar Re: Zitting Cisticola at Kilcoole? [Eugene ARCHER ] 9 Mar Re: That Book [Mike O'Keeffe ] 9 Mar That Book [Eamonn O'Donnell ] 9 Mar Re: Glasses found at Lough Gur [Eamonn O'Donnell ] 9 Mar Glasses found at Lough Gur [john murphy ] 9 Mar Re: Zitting Cisticola at Kilcoole? [Coilin MacLochlainn ] 9 Mar Re: Fan-tailed Warbler in Ireland [Lee G R Evans ] 9 Mar Re: Fan-tailed Warbler in Ireland [Mark Shorten ] 9 Mar Re: Fan-tailed Warbler in Ireland [irishbirdnews ] 9 Mar Re: Fan-tailed Warbler in Ireland [Lee G R Evans ] 9 Mar Re: Fan-tailed Warbler in Ireland [Lee G R Evans ] 9 Mar Re: Fan-tailed Warbler in Ireland [irishbirdnews ] 9 Mar Re: Fan-tailed Warbler in Ireland [Mark Shorten ] 9 Mar Fan-tailed Warbler in Ireland [Lee G R Evans ] 9 Mar Re: wheatear [Eamonn ] 9 Mar Re: wheatear [irishbirdnews ] 9 Mar wheatear [Eamonn ] 9 Mar Re: Fantasy Birding [irishbirdnews ] 9 Mar Re: Fantasy Birding [Eamonn ] 8 Mar Re: Fantasy Birding [Mike O'Keeffe ] 8 Mar Twitch hunt ["Fitzpatrick, Dara" ] 8 Mar Re: Fantasy Birding [Seamus Feeney ] 8 Mar Re: Zitting Cisticola at Kilcoole? [Richard Hunter ] 8 Mar Re: Fantasy Birding [Mícheál Casey ] 8 Mar Re: Fantasy Birding [] 8 Mar Re: Fantasy Birding [bom ] 8 Mar Re: Zitting Cisticola at Kilcoole? [Ronan McLaughlin ] 8 Mar Re: Zitting Cisticola at Kilcoole? [Seamus Feeney ] 8 Mar Re: Fantasy Birding [Lee G R Evans ] 8 Mar Re: Fantasy Birding [Eamonn ] 8 Mar Re: Fantasy Birding [Eugene ARCHER ] Subject: Re: Pacific Divers From: Dermot Breen <breen.dermot AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 19:27:48 +0000 Last seen on Monday. Searched for Tuesday, Wednesday and today without success. It may have moved further West along the Rine or East along the Flaggy Shore, Aughinish Island or Doorus. Its a big area with alot of divers around. 86 Black-throated, possibly up to 200 Great northerns and a handful of Red-throats in the area last weekend. Dermot On 3/12/10, Ian ForsythSubject: Re: Pacific Divers From: Ian Forsyth <ian.forsyth24 AT BTINTERNET.COM> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 14:53:40 -0000 Only about a Stormy Pedestrian Jay Walker. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Keogh"Subject: Re: Pacific Divers From: Paul Keogh <Keogh.Paul AT ITSLIGO.IE> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 13:41:49 +0000 Hi, Is there any update on the Pacific Driver today. Thanks Paul -----Original Message----- From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of Michael O'Keeffe Sent: 11 March 2010 18:31 To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE Subject: Pacific Divers Hi, Has anyone been looking for the Pacific Divers in recent days? Any updates? Regards MikeSubject: Brian Carruthers From: Joseph Doolan <joseph AT INDIGO.IE> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 12:08:27 -0000 Brian Carruthers has informed me that visited the Gialova Lagoon, Greece, during April 2009. He photographed many birds including the Fan-tailed Warbler and Cetti's Warbler submitted to www.irishbirding.com on the 7th of March, 2010. Brian has apologised for what he did on the 7th of March 2010 but for a variety of reasons (legal and health and safety) I cannot comment as to why he did what he did. I hope that Brian will in the fullness of time explain all on the IBN and or in the field. Regards. JoeSubject: Possible new species of storm-petrel off Puerto Montt, Chile From: Michael O'Keeffe <okeeffeml AT EIRCOM.NET> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 18:51:05 -0000 All, For anyone interested in reading the full report on these strange storm-petrels recorded by a number of us on a trip to Chile last February, Bob Flood is now featuring on his website the unedited article (originally published in the journal Dutch Birding a few months ago). Joe Doolin also still has the shortened version on his site, linked from the home page. The most recent updates are that these birds have been seen again in some numbers from the Chiloé Island ferry this winter. As many as 200 birds were reported on one visit to the area we have been informed. There is quite some interest in this in Chile now and it is hoped the puzzle will be resolved before long. No doubt a decent bucket of chum would go a long way to resolving things. For those who may have not read the article in full, Peter Harrison's involvment is particularly interesting. Another interesting and as yet unanswered question is the possiblity that two skins in the museum in Buenos Aires which are currently assigned to Elliot's Storm-petrel may in fact refer to the Puerto Montt birds. Could a new bird be lurking undiscovered on our doorstep? http://scillypelagics.com/Oceanites_Puerto_Montt_Chile.html Regards MikeSubject: Pacific Divers From: Michael O'Keeffe <okeeffeml AT EIRCOM.NET> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 18:31:03 -0000 Hi, Has anyone been looking for the Pacific Divers in recent days? Any updates? Regards MikeSubject: Re: That Book From: Darragh Sherwin <darragh.sherwin AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:31:20 +0000 Sorry, €15.34 in Reads on Nassau Street Sent from my iPhone On 11 Mar 2010, at 14:29, Darragh SherwinSubject: Re: That Book From: Darragh Sherwin <darragh.sherwin AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:29:51 +0000 Got a paperback copy of it today for €15.3 Sent from my iPhone On 9 Mar 2010, at 21:18, Mike O'KeeffeSubject: Re: That book again From: Hugh Delaney <hughdelaney AT EIRCOM.NET> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 03:05:25 +0000 That book needs KM drawing and painting the stints and peeps, for that alone i would be worth coughing up for a 3rd addition!, regards Hugh ----- "Eamonn O'Donnell"Subject: Brent/Brant From: Sean Cronin <n737wh AT HOTMAIL.COM> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 21:56:20 +0000 Hi All I've just put up a comparison shot of the various brent/brant/whatever at Aghada, Cork Harbour on my Flickr page at http://www.flickr.com/photos/sean_cronin/4422655281/?addedcomment=1#comment72157623470410057 All the best Sean _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. https://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id=60969Subject: Re: That book again From: Steve Wing <steve.ccbo AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 18:54:58 +0000 So it WAS you! On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 6:53 PM, Eamonn O'DonnellSubject: That book again From: Eamonn O'Donnell <bobolink300 AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 18:53:17 +0000 "..................and the shocking number of typos, especially in the book's index " Don't worry Muller, while spending long long hours sitting on Blannan or The Bridges nature occassionally calls so the index may come in handy....as Barrington did. BobSubject: Re: That Book From: Kieran Fahy <kieranfahy AT EIRCOM.NET> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 15:49:15 -0000 You've got to worry about those kids though - what sort of slipshod example is that to show them - disgraceful parenting ! Kieran -----Original Message----- From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of Eugene ARCHER Sent: 10 March 2010 15:43 To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE Subject: Re: That Book Probably the page with the Fan-tailed Warbler on it Mícheál ;-) Excellent story. The subject title should now be changed to "tales of love and devotion" I think :-) Eugene Casey, Micheal wrote: > I just decided to get my second edition (which is lovely) scuffed up ASAP, so I can relax and stop minding it then. > > There must be loads of stories about the first edition. > > My first edition, which was already well travelled and pretty wrecked, got left on the roof of the car by SOMEBODY who was cleaning the car before she went on a short trip. To her horror she saw the pages all over the road and the roadside fields on the way back an hour later, gathered them up (which I am informed took ages even with help from the kids) dried them, put them in order and put a rubber band around them. I got presented with it when I got home. > > I pointed out that one page is missing, which didn't go down well. > > Never found it since either, and I am not convinced she has been searching properly. > > Mícheál > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of Eamonn > Sent: 10 March 2010 15:12 > To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE > Subject: Re: That Book > > Mine will likely never see the glare of the Tachumshin Spring sunshine or feel the October drizzle on Blannan or smell the freshness of a winter breeze in Killybegs.........my old trusty 1st edition will continue to serve that purpose. > > I was thinking of setting up my 2nd edition like the Book of Kells and turn one page every day and admire it momentarily. > > bob > > -----Original Message----- > From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of Fitzpatrick, Dara > Sent: 10 March 2010 14:58 > To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE > Subject: Re: That Book > > > > Hi All / Killian, > > Given the backdrop to the preparation of the 2nd edition which Killian writes about in this months Birdwatching then it really is a credit to all the authors that we have managed to get our paws on it. I've no complaints about the book other than I'm afraid to take it out into the field knowing that it's going to look like my abused but much loved first addition in a short space of time. I also feel like I've robbed my hardback copy as I got it for EUR12 in the pre-publication sale. It is nice to see the book evolve and reflect the field craft of birders and just like the first addition it is a snap shot of where we're at now. I also think the way forward might be continually updated apps with high res plates which can be enlarged on screen for detail. > > Enjoy, > > Dara > > -----Original Message----- > From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of Richard Mills > Sent: 09 March 2010 22:54 > To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE > Subject: Re: That Book > > A superb book indeed. I have just had the pleasure of reviewing it. > > One thing though, why have all the divers disappeared and turned into loons? > > Has there been some change that I've missed? > > Richard. > > At 20:56 09/03/2010, you wrote: > >> Hello boys, >> On a change of subject as it appears nobody is going to explain the two >> Warblers in a hurry. >> I have just received my spanking new copy of the 2nd Edition of the Collins >> Bird Guide and it is almost beyond description. It really is an amazing >> publication. The art and print quality are simply fantastic. >> I would encourage anybody with a birthday coming up to suggest to your loved >> one that this is what you would like as a gift. They will love you even more >> when they see that it can be purchased on Amazon UK delivered for EUR20 !!!! >> >> The one complaint I would have is that with the inclusion of species such as >> Seebohm's, Kurdish and Maghreb Wheatears it means that I know even less than >> I thought I did about birds !! >> >> I particularly like Nile Walley Sunbird :-) >> >> Don't delay, buy it today. >> >> Bob >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2731 >> - Release Date: 03/08/10 19:33:00 >> > > ############################################################################ ######### > This e-mail message has been scanned for Viruses and Content and cleared > by MailMarshal > ############################################################################ ######### > > Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food > > The information contained in this email and in any attachments is confidential and is designated solely for the attention and use of the intended recipient(s). This information may be subject to legal and professional privilege. If you are not an intended recipient of this email, you must not use, disclose, copy, distribute or retain this message or any part of it. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this email from your computer system(s). > > An Roinn Talmhaíochta, Iascaigh agus Bia > > Tá an t-eolais san ríomhphost seo, agus in aon ceangláin leis, faoi phribhléid agus faoi rún agus le h-aghaigh an seolaí amháin. D'fhéadfadh ábhar an seoladh seo bheith faoi phribhléid profisiúnta nó dlíthiúil. Mura tusa an seolaí a bhí beartaithe leis an ríomhphost seo a fháil, tá cosc air, nó aon chuid de, a úsáid, a chóipeál, nó a scaoileadh. Má tháinig sé chugat de bharr dearmad, téigh i dteagmháil leis an seoltóir agus scrios an t-ábhar ó do ríomhaire le do thoil. >Subject: Re: That Book From: Eugene ARCHER <wagtail AT FREE.FR> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 16:42:51 +0100 Probably the page with the Fan-tailed Warbler on it Mícheál ;-) Excellent story. The subject title should now be changed to "tales of love and devotion" I think :-) Eugene Casey, Micheal wrote: > I just decided to get my second edition (which is lovely) scuffed up ASAP, so I can relax and stop minding it then. > > There must be loads of stories about the first edition. > > My first edition, which was already well travelled and pretty wrecked, got left on the roof of the car by SOMEBODY who was cleaning the car before she went on a short trip. To her horror she saw the pages all over the road and the roadside fields on the way back an hour later, gathered them up (which I am informed took ages even with help from the kids) dried them, put them in order and put a rubber band around them. I got presented with it when I got home. > > I pointed out that one page is missing, which didn't go down well. > > Never found it since either, and I am not convinced she has been searching properly. > > Mícheál > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of Eamonn > Sent: 10 March 2010 15:12 > To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE > Subject: Re: That Book > > Mine will likely never see the glare of the Tachumshin Spring sunshine or feel the October drizzle on Blannan or smell the freshness of a winter breeze in Killybegs.........my old trusty 1st edition will continue to serve that purpose. > > I was thinking of setting up my 2nd edition like the Book of Kells and turn one page every day and admire it momentarily. > > bob > > -----Original Message----- > From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of Fitzpatrick, Dara > Sent: 10 March 2010 14:58 > To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE > Subject: Re: That Book > > > > Hi All / Killian, > > Given the backdrop to the preparation of the 2nd edition which Killian writes about in this months Birdwatching then it really is a credit to all the authors that we have managed to get our paws on it. I've no complaints about the book other than I'm afraid to take it out into the field knowing that it's going to look like my abused but much loved first addition in a short space of time. I also feel like I've robbed my hardback copy as I got it for EUR12 in the pre-publication sale. It is nice to see the book evolve and reflect the field craft of birders and just like the first addition it is a snap shot of where we're at now. I also think the way forward might be continually updated apps with high res plates which can be enlarged on screen for detail. > > Enjoy, > > Dara > > -----Original Message----- > From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of Richard Mills > Sent: 09 March 2010 22:54 > To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE > Subject: Re: That Book > > A superb book indeed. I have just had the pleasure of reviewing it. > > One thing though, why have all the divers disappeared and turned into loons? > > Has there been some change that I've missed? > > Richard. > > At 20:56 09/03/2010, you wrote: > >> Hello boys, >> On a change of subject as it appears nobody is going to explain the two >> Warblers in a hurry. >> I have just received my spanking new copy of the 2nd Edition of the Collins >> Bird Guide and it is almost beyond description. It really is an amazing >> publication. The art and print quality are simply fantastic. >> I would encourage anybody with a birthday coming up to suggest to your loved >> one that this is what you would like as a gift. They will love you even more >> when they see that it can be purchased on Amazon UK delivered for EUR20 !!!! >> >> The one complaint I would have is that with the inclusion of species such as >> Seebohm's, Kurdish and Maghreb Wheatears it means that I know even less than >> I thought I did about birds !! >> >> I particularly like Nile Walley Sunbird :-) >> >> Don't delay, buy it today. >> >> Bob >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2731 >> - Release Date: 03/08/10 19:33:00 >> > > ##################################################################################### > This e-mail message has been scanned for Viruses and Content and cleared > by MailMarshal > ##################################################################################### > > Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food > > The information contained in this email and in any attachments is confidential and is designated solely for the attention and use of the intended recipient(s). This information may be subject to legal and professional privilege. If you are not an intended recipient of this email, you must not use, disclose, copy, distribute or retain this message or any part of it. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this email from your computer system(s). > > An Roinn Talmhaíochta, Iascaigh agus Bia > > Tá an t-eolais san ríomhphost seo, agus in aon ceangláin leis, faoi phribhléid agus faoi rún agus le h-aghaigh an seolaí amháin. D'fhéadfadh ábhar an seoladh seo bheith faoi phribhléid profisiúnta nó dlíthiúil. Mura tusa an seolaí a bhí beartaithe leis an ríomhphost seo a fháil, tá cosc air, nó aon chuid de, a úsáid, a chóipeál, nó a scaoileadh. Má tháinig sé chugat de bharr dearmad, téigh i dteagmháil leis an seoltóir agus scrios an t-ábhar ó do ríomhaire le do thoil. >Subject: Re: Petrel rediscovered after 83 years From: Eamonn <eamonn AT COLLIERKITCHENS.IE> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 15:28:06 -0000 I thought New Zealand Petrel was the one some lad kept seeing but nobody believed him until it was photographed after the poor hoor killed himself due to depression ? -----Original Message----- From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of Fitzpatrick, Dara Sent: 10 March 2010 15:22 To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE Subject: Petrel rediscovered after 83 years This is an interesting article about the Vanuatu Petrel / New Zealand Petrel(?) It looks like another Fea's / Zino's complex. http://travelblog.zeco.com/ http://www.birdwatch.co.uk/website/content/view/3093/32/ Regards, Dara ##################################################################################### This e-mail message has been scanned for Viruses and Content and cleared by MailMarshal #####################################################################################Subject: Re: That Book From: "Casey, Micheal" <Micheal.Casey AT AGRICULTURE.GOV.IE> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 15:26:45 +0000 I just decided to get my second edition (which is lovely) scuffed up ASAP, so I can relax and stop minding it then. There must be loads of stories about the first edition. My first edition, which was already well travelled and pretty wrecked, got left on the roof of the car by SOMEBODY who was cleaning the car before she went on a short trip. To her horror she saw the pages all over the road and the roadside fields on the way back an hour later, gathered them up (which I am informed took ages even with help from the kids) dried them, put them in order and put a rubber band around them. I got presented with it when I got home. I pointed out that one page is missing, which didn't go down well. Never found it since either, and I am not convinced she has been searching properly. MÃcheál -----Original Message----- From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of Eamonn Sent: 10 March 2010 15:12 To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE Subject: Re: That Book Mine will likely never see the glare of the Tachumshin Spring sunshine or feel the October drizzle on Blannan or smell the freshness of a winter breeze in Killybegs.........my old trusty 1st edition will continue to serve that purpose. I was thinking of setting up my 2nd edition like the Book of Kells and turn one page every day and admire it momentarily. bob -----Original Message----- From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of Fitzpatrick, Dara Sent: 10 March 2010 14:58 To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE Subject: Re: That Book Hi All / Killian, Given the backdrop to the preparation of the 2nd edition which Killian writes about in this months Birdwatching then it really is a credit to all the authors that we have managed to get our paws on it. I've no complaints about the book other than I'm afraid to take it out into the field knowing that it's going to look like my abused but much loved first addition in a short space of time. I also feel like I've robbed my hardback copy as I got it for €12 in the pre-publication sale. It is nice to see the book evolve and reflect the field craft of birders and just like the first addition it is a snap shot of where we're at now. I also think the way forward might be continually updated apps with high res plates which can be enlarged on screen for detail. Enjoy, Dara -----Original Message----- From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of Richard Mills Sent: 09 March 2010 22:54 To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE Subject: Re: That Book A superb book indeed. I have just had the pleasure of reviewing it. One thing though, why have all the divers disappeared and turned into loons? Has there been some change that I've missed? Richard. At 20:56 09/03/2010, you wrote: >Hello boys, >On a change of subject as it appears nobody is going to explain the two >Warblers in a hurry. >I have just received my spanking new copy of the 2nd Edition of the Collins >Bird Guide and it is almost beyond description. It really is an amazing >publication. The art and print quality are simply fantastic. >I would encourage anybody with a birthday coming up to suggest to your loved >one that this is what you would like as a gift. They will love you even more >when they see that it can be purchased on Amazon UK delivered for €20 !!!! > >The one complaint I would have is that with the inclusion of species such as >Seebohm's, Kurdish and Maghreb Wheatears it means that I know even less than >I thought I did about birds !! > >I particularly like Nile Walley Sunbird :-) > >Don't delay, buy it today. > >Bob > > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2731 >- Release Date: 03/08/10 19:33:00 ##################################################################################### This e-mail message has been scanned for Viruses and Content and cleared by MailMarshal ##################################################################################### Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food The information contained in this email and in any attachments is confidential and is designated solely for the attention and use of the intended recipient(s). This information may be subject to legal and professional privilege. If you are not an intended recipient of this email, you must not use, disclose, copy, distribute or retain this message or any part of it. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this email from your computer system(s). An Roinn TalmhaÃochta, Iascaigh agus Bia Tá an t-eolais san rÃomhphost seo, agus in aon ceangláin leis, faoi phribhléid agus faoi rún agus le h-aghaigh an seolaà amháin. D’fhéadfadh ábhar an seoladh seo bheith faoi phribhléid profisiúnta nó dlÃthiúil. Mura tusa an seolaà a bhà beartaithe leis an rÃomhphost seo a fháil, tá cosc air, nó aon chuid de, a úsáid, a chóipeál, nó a scaoileadh. Má tháinig sé chugat de bharr dearmad, téigh i dteagmháil leis an seoltóir agus scrios an t-ábhar ó do rÃomhaire le do thoil.Subject: Petrel rediscovered after 83 years From: "Fitzpatrick, Dara" <d.fitzpatrick AT UCC.IE> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 15:22:25 -0000 This is an interesting article about the Vanuatu Petrel / New Zealand Petrel(?) It looks like another Fea's / Zino's complex. http://travelblog.zeco.com/ http://www.birdwatch.co.uk/website/content/view/3093/32/ Regards, DaraSubject: Re: That Book From: Eamonn <eamonn AT COLLIERKITCHENS.IE> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 15:18:34 -0000 Only my friends Eugene. Both of you ! -----Original Message----- From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of Eugene ARCHER Sent: 10 March 2010 15:16 To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE Subject: Re: That Book If we come around to you house Bob will you let us in for free and give us tea and biscuits afterwards ???? Eamonn wrote: > I was thinking of setting up my 2nd edition like the Book of Kells and turn one page every day and admire it momentarily. > > bob ##################################################################################### This e-mail message has been scanned for Viruses and Content and cleared by MailMarshal #####################################################################################Subject: Re: That Book From: Eugene ARCHER <wagtail AT FREE.FR> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 16:16:15 +0100 If we come around to you house Bob will you let us in for free and give us tea and biscuits afterwards ???? Eamonn wrote: > I was thinking of setting up my 2nd edition like the Book of Kells and turn one page every day and admire it momentarily. > > bobSubject: Re: That Book From: Eamonn <eamonn AT COLLIERKITCHENS.IE> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 15:12:18 -0000 Mine will likely never see the glare of the Tachumshin Spring sunshine or feel the October drizzle on Blannan or smell the freshness of a winter breeze in Killybegs.........my old trusty 1st edition will continue to serve that purpose. I was thinking of setting up my 2nd edition like the Book of Kells and turn one page every day and admire it momentarily. bob -----Original Message----- From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of Fitzpatrick, Dara Sent: 10 March 2010 14:58 To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE Subject: Re: That Book Hi All / Killian, Given the backdrop to the preparation of the 2nd edition which Killian writes about in this months Birdwatching then it really is a credit to all the authors that we have managed to get our paws on it. I've no complaints about the book other than I'm afraid to take it out into the field knowing that it's going to look like my abused but much loved first addition in a short space of time. I also feel like I've robbed my hardback copy as I got it for €12 in the pre-publication sale. It is nice to see the book evolve and reflect the field craft of birders and just like the first addition it is a snap shot of where we're at now. I also think the way forward might be continually updated apps with high res plates which can be enlarged on screen for detail. Enjoy, Dara -----Original Message----- From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of Richard Mills Sent: 09 March 2010 22:54 To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE Subject: Re: That Book A superb book indeed. I have just had the pleasure of reviewing it. One thing though, why have all the divers disappeared and turned into loons? Has there been some change that I've missed? Richard. At 20:56 09/03/2010, you wrote: >Hello boys, >On a change of subject as it appears nobody is going to explain the two >Warblers in a hurry. >I have just received my spanking new copy of the 2nd Edition of the Collins >Bird Guide and it is almost beyond description. It really is an amazing >publication. The art and print quality are simply fantastic. >I would encourage anybody with a birthday coming up to suggest to your loved >one that this is what you would like as a gift. They will love you even more >when they see that it can be purchased on Amazon UK delivered for €20 !!!! > >The one complaint I would have is that with the inclusion of species such as >Seebohm's, Kurdish and Maghreb Wheatears it means that I know even less than >I thought I did about birds !! > >I particularly like Nile Walley Sunbird :-) > >Don't delay, buy it today. > >Bob > > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2731 >- Release Date: 03/08/10 19:33:00 ##################################################################################### This e-mail message has been scanned for Viruses and Content and cleared by MailMarshal #####################################################################################Subject: Re: That Book From: "Fitzpatrick, Dara" <d.fitzpatrick AT UCC.IE> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 14:58:01 -0000 Hi All / Killian, Given the backdrop to the preparation of the 2nd edition which Killian writes about in this months Birdwatching then it really is a credit to all the authors that we have managed to get our paws on it. I've no complaints about the book other than I'm afraid to take it out into the field knowing that it's going to look like my abused but much loved first addition in a short space of time. I also feel like I've robbed my hardback copy as I got it for €12 in the pre-publication sale. It is nice to see the book evolve and reflect the field craft of birders and just like the first addition it is a snap shot of where we're at now. I also think the way forward might be continually updated apps with high res plates which can be enlarged on screen for detail. Enjoy, Dara -----Original Message----- From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of Richard Mills Sent: 09 March 2010 22:54 To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE Subject: Re: That Book A superb book indeed. I have just had the pleasure of reviewing it. One thing though, why have all the divers disappeared and turned into loons? Has there been some change that I've missed? Richard. At 20:56 09/03/2010, you wrote: >Hello boys, >On a change of subject as it appears nobody is going to explain the two >Warblers in a hurry. >I have just received my spanking new copy of the 2nd Edition of the Collins >Bird Guide and it is almost beyond description. It really is an amazing >publication. The art and print quality are simply fantastic. >I would encourage anybody with a birthday coming up to suggest to your loved >one that this is what you would like as a gift. They will love you even more >when they see that it can be purchased on Amazon UK delivered for €20 !!!! > >The one complaint I would have is that with the inclusion of species such as >Seebohm's, Kurdish and Maghreb Wheatears it means that I know even less than >I thought I did about birds !! > >I particularly like Nile Walley Sunbird :-) > >Don't delay, buy it today. > >Bob > > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2731 >- Release Date: 03/08/10 19:33:00Subject: Re: That Book . . . and others From: Eugene ARCHER <wagtail AT FREE.FR> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 15:00:43 +0100 :-) I hadn't noticed that Dermot !!! But you might well be right . . . . sorting out a Fantasy-tailed Warbler from a Czechies Warbler is bound to leave one in a state of mental disorder :-0 Eugene Dermot McCabe wrote: > Eugene, > I see from the Book Depository site that people who looked at the Reed > and Bush Warblers book also bought a volume on Mental Disorders. > A useful combination surely? > Dermot. > > On 10 March 2010 10:34, Eugene ARCHERSubject: Re: That Book . . . and others From: Dermot McCabe <dermot.mccabe AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 13:30:15 +0000 Eugene, I see from the Book Depository site that people who looked at the Reed and Bush Warblers book also bought a volume on Mental Disorders. A useful combination surely? Dermot. On 10 March 2010 10:34, Eugene ARCHERSubject: Ballyvaughan From: colin.mcnamee AT PRINTPOST.IE Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 10:34:20 -0000 Any news today/yesterday on the Pacific Diver ? ColinSubject: Re: That Book . . . and others From: Eugene ARCHER <wagtail AT FREE.FR> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 11:34:07 +0100 Hi All, On my current wish-list of books are the following: http://www.bookdepository.com/book/9780713645712/Birds-of-the-Western-Palearctic and http://www.bookdepository.com/book/9780713660227/Reed-and-Bush-Warblers Both look as if they will be essential additions to anyone's library . . . . and check out those pre-publication prices ! All the best, Eugene colin.mcnamee AT PRINTPOST.IE wrote: > Hi > > The new guide is nothing short of brilliant. I have not seen a field guide that comes close. The first edition was the benchmark for field guides but this raised the bar considerably. > > I like Eamonn, was surprised with some species - took me a while to work out Isabelline Warbler ( thankfully I've seen it) - but Maghreb Wheatear means I've to go back to Morocco again ! The atlantic islands pigeons plate is stunning and I must say I liked Hypocolius and some of the re-worked owls too. The yanks are a real improvement on the previous edition. > > It wouldn't take too much too expand it to all of the western palearctic - now there's a thought ! This was certainly worth waiting for and no doubt it's possible to pick a few holes in it but there is no other field guide that comes up to it. > > If you haven't got this book yet - you should. > > (Fiver to the usual address Killian !) > > Colin > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of Fitzharris, Jim > Sent: 10 March 2010 10:06 > To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE > Subject: Re: That Book > > > Killian, > > What was your response to the gent in Galway? > > Something along the lines of:- > > "There are indeed DIVERS out there but the LOONS are on the shore looking at them ............" > > Cheers, > > Jim. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of Killian Mullarney > Sent: 10 March 2010 00:16 > To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE > Subject: Re: That Book > > Hi Richard, > > You might be surprised to find, if you take a look at your old copy of the Collins Bird Guide, that the divers are 'loons' in there too! A few weeks ago I responded to a complaint about the choice of 'loon' over 'diver' in a thread on Birdforum, not necessarily to defend it, but to explain how it came about. Here is what I wrote then: > > As those of us who have been around for a few years will know, the subject of English bird names is a highly emotive matter. It was probably never more of an issue than back in the mid-90s when there was a lot of effort put into trying to achieve a standardised list of English bird names. We may question now what the absolute imperative for standarisation was, but back then it seemed, to some at least, really important. > > One of the most thoughtful contributions to the debate came in the form of a small booklet entitled Palearctic Birds: a Checklist of the birds of Europe, North Africa and Asia by Mark Beaman, published privately in 1994. I reproduce Beaman's discourse on the merits of 'loon' versus 'diver', just to demonstrate how consideration of the question from a broad (and particularly a long-term) perspective convinced us, at the time, that there was some merit in adopting 'loon'. > > "The use of 'loon' in north America and 'diver' in the Old world for members of the Gaviidae is a long-established dichotomy but one that must be addressed if a standardised world list of English bird names is to be achieved. Although recognising that 'diver' is dear to the hearts of ornithologists in the British Isles, 'loon' seems to me to have the edge. > Although now used mainly in North America, 'loon' originated as a bird name in Britain and has a long history of use, dating back to at least 1634 in the literature (Simpson & Weiner 1989). The word derives of the Old Norse lómr (the primary sense of which is moan, i.e. moaning bird: see Lockwood 1984), by way of 'loom' and 'loone', and so has an ancient lineage. To my mind 'loon' has the advantage of being unique to the Gaviidae in the same way that 'grebe' is unique to Podicipedidae, while 'diver' has a much wider range of meaning that extends well beyond bird names. Even if the two rival names are considered to have equal merit, the claims of 'loon' to become the standard name for worldwide use are strengthened by the fact that all five Gavia species breed in North America and particularly because, owing to the much larger population of English-speakers in that continent, a greater number of people are familiar with the name. (The idea, prevalent in some quarters in the British Isles, that the name 'loon' stems from the fact that the eerie, wailing cries of these birds recall the strange sounds made by lunatics or 'loonies' is a misconception)." > > Mark Beaman's book contains similarly interesting and informative text on many other contentious bird names, including 'skua' versus 'jaeger'. > > While I don't wish to start another debate on English bird names, especially since I would not necessarily wish to defend the use of certain names that appear in the second edition Bird Guide, I think we should bear in mind that bird names are not always set in stone; sometimes they evolve and change, according to the preference of the majority, or even (alas) the whim of an individual in a position of influence. > > Ten years after 'loon' was given priority in the Collins Bird Guide, I hear > almost* no-one here referring to the birds as anything other than 'divers'. > On this basis, I'd be inclined to concede that we should perhaps have reverted to the more familiar name (on this side of the Atlantic) 'diver', in the same way as we abandoned the misguided 'Parasitic Skua' and reverted to Arctic Skua (though Beaman did make a good case for the adoption of 'Parasitic'). On the other hand, if I had grown up in North America I'd have probably strongly resisted any attempt to replace the rather beautiful and evocative name 'loon' with such an ordinary name as 'diver'. Perhaps we just need to give it a little more time?! > > In any case, I hope the odd questionable name (and the shocking number of typos, especially in the book's index) do not detract too much from your enjoyment of the book. > > Regards, > > Killian > > * I would have said 'no-one' if it had not been for the gent who stopped to chat to me in Galway the other day and asked "if there were any loons out there?" However, I doubt that he had ever seen a copy of the Collins Bird Guide... > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Richard Mills"Subject: Re: That Book From: colin.mcnamee AT PRINTPOST.IE Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 10:29:05 -0000 Eamonn I, like you, like me too !! C -----Original Message----- From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of Eamonn Sent: 10 March 2010 10:26 To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE Subject: Re: That Book Muller, Unlike Colin I did not promote your book for personal gain. However, should one of the original plates keep getting in your way or is in danger of being eaten by one of your children I have a place for it. Yours expectantly. Bob P.S. your superb Bobolink painting looks just like the one on Cape. P.P.S. Colin, I like you too XX -----Original Message----- From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of colin.mcnamee AT PRINTPOST.IE Sent: 10 March 2010 10:20 To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE Subject: Re: That Book Hi The new guide is nothing short of brilliant. I have not seen a field guide that comes close. The first edition was the benchmark for field guides but this raised the bar considerably. I like Eamonn, was surprised with some species - took me a while to work out Isabelline Warbler ( thankfully I've seen it) - but Maghreb Wheatear means I've to go back to Morocco again ! The atlantic islands pigeons plate is stunning and I must say I liked Hypocolius and some of the re-worked owls too. The yanks are a real improvement on the previous edition. It wouldn't take too much too expand it to all of the western palearctic - now there's a thought ! This was certainly worth waiting for and no doubt it's possible to pick a few holes in it but there is no other field guide that comes up to it. If you haven't got this book yet - you should. (Fiver to the usual address Killian !) Colin -----Original Message----- From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of Fitzharris, Jim Sent: 10 March 2010 10:06 To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE Subject: Re: That Book Killian, What was your response to the gent in Galway? Something along the lines of:- "There are indeed DIVERS out there but the LOONS are on the shore looking at them ............" Cheers, Jim. -----Original Message----- From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of Killian Mullarney Sent: 10 March 2010 00:16 To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE Subject: Re: That Book Hi Richard, You might be surprised to find, if you take a look at your old copy of the Collins Bird Guide, that the divers are 'loons' in there too! A few weeks ago I responded to a complaint about the choice of 'loon' over 'diver' in a thread on Birdforum, not necessarily to defend it, but to explain how it came about. Here is what I wrote then: As those of us who have been around for a few years will know, the subject of English bird names is a highly emotive matter. It was probably never more of an issue than back in the mid-90s when there was a lot of effort put into trying to achieve a standardised list of English bird names. We may question now what the absolute imperative for standarisation was, but back then it seemed, to some at least, really important. One of the most thoughtful contributions to the debate came in the form of a small booklet entitled Palearctic Birds: a Checklist of the birds of Europe, North Africa and Asia by Mark Beaman, published privately in 1994. I reproduce Beaman's discourse on the merits of 'loon' versus 'diver', just to demonstrate how consideration of the question from a broad (and particularly a long-term) perspective convinced us, at the time, that there was some merit in adopting 'loon'. "The use of 'loon' in north America and 'diver' in the Old world for members of the Gaviidae is a long-established dichotomy but one that must be addressed if a standardised world list of English bird names is to be achieved. Although recognising that 'diver' is dear to the hearts of ornithologists in the British Isles, 'loon' seems to me to have the edge. Although now used mainly in North America, 'loon' originated as a bird name in Britain and has a long history of use, dating back to at least 1634 in the literature (Simpson & Weiner 1989). The word derives of the Old Norse lómr (the primary sense of which is moan, i.e. moaning bird: see Lockwood 1984), by way of 'loom' and 'loone', and so has an ancient lineage. To my mind 'loon' has the advantage of being unique to the Gaviidae in the same way that 'grebe' is unique to Podicipedidae, while 'diver' has a much wider range of meaning that extends well beyond bird names. Even if the two rival names are considered to have equal merit, the claims of 'loon' to become the standard name for worldwide use are strengthened by the fact that all five Gavia species breed in North America and particularly because, owing to the much larger population of English-speakers in that continent, a greater number of people are familiar with the name. (The idea, prevalent in some quarters in the British Isles, that the name 'loon' stems from the fact that the eerie, wailing cries of these birds recall the strange sounds made by lunatics or 'loonies' is a misconception)." Mark Beaman's book contains similarly interesting and informative text on many other contentious bird names, including 'skua' versus 'jaeger'. While I don't wish to start another debate on English bird names, especially since I would not necessarily wish to defend the use of certain names that appear in the second edition Bird Guide, I think we should bear in mind that bird names are not always set in stone; sometimes they evolve and change, according to the preference of the majority, or even (alas) the whim of an individual in a position of influence. Ten years after 'loon' was given priority in the Collins Bird Guide, I hear almost* no-one here referring to the birds as anything other than 'divers'. On this basis, I'd be inclined to concede that we should perhaps have reverted to the more familiar name (on this side of the Atlantic) 'diver', in the same way as we abandoned the misguided 'Parasitic Skua' and reverted to Arctic Skua (though Beaman did make a good case for the adoption of 'Parasitic'). On the other hand, if I had grown up in North America I'd have probably strongly resisted any attempt to replace the rather beautiful and evocative name 'loon' with such an ordinary name as 'diver'. Perhaps we just need to give it a little more time?! In any case, I hope the odd questionable name (and the shocking number of typos, especially in the book's index) do not detract too much from your enjoyment of the book. Regards, Killian * I would have said 'no-one' if it had not been for the gent who stopped to chat to me in Galway the other day and asked "if there were any loons out there?" However, I doubt that he had ever seen a copy of the Collins Bird Guide... -------------------------------------------------- From: "Richard Mills"Subject: Re: That Book From: Eamonn <eamonn AT COLLIERKITCHENS.IE> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 10:26:03 -0000 Muller, Unlike Colin I did not promote your book for personal gain. However, should one of the original plates keep getting in your way or is in danger of being eaten by one of your children I have a place for it. Yours expectantly. Bob P.S. your superb Bobolink painting looks just like the one on Cape. P.P.S. Colin, I like you too XX -----Original Message----- From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of colin.mcnamee AT PRINTPOST.IE Sent: 10 March 2010 10:20 To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE Subject: Re: That Book Hi The new guide is nothing short of brilliant. I have not seen a field guide that comes close. The first edition was the benchmark for field guides but this raised the bar considerably. I like Eamonn, was surprised with some species - took me a while to work out Isabelline Warbler ( thankfully I've seen it) - but Maghreb Wheatear means I've to go back to Morocco again ! The atlantic islands pigeons plate is stunning and I must say I liked Hypocolius and some of the re-worked owls too. The yanks are a real improvement on the previous edition. It wouldn't take too much too expand it to all of the western palearctic - now there's a thought ! This was certainly worth waiting for and no doubt it's possible to pick a few holes in it but there is no other field guide that comes up to it. If you haven't got this book yet - you should. (Fiver to the usual address Killian !) Colin -----Original Message----- From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of Fitzharris, Jim Sent: 10 March 2010 10:06 To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE Subject: Re: That Book Killian, What was your response to the gent in Galway? Something along the lines of:- "There are indeed DIVERS out there but the LOONS are on the shore looking at them ............" Cheers, Jim. -----Original Message----- From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of Killian Mullarney Sent: 10 March 2010 00:16 To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE Subject: Re: That Book Hi Richard, You might be surprised to find, if you take a look at your old copy of the Collins Bird Guide, that the divers are 'loons' in there too! A few weeks ago I responded to a complaint about the choice of 'loon' over 'diver' in a thread on Birdforum, not necessarily to defend it, but to explain how it came about. Here is what I wrote then: As those of us who have been around for a few years will know, the subject of English bird names is a highly emotive matter. It was probably never more of an issue than back in the mid-90s when there was a lot of effort put into trying to achieve a standardised list of English bird names. We may question now what the absolute imperative for standarisation was, but back then it seemed, to some at least, really important. One of the most thoughtful contributions to the debate came in the form of a small booklet entitled Palearctic Birds: a Checklist of the birds of Europe, North Africa and Asia by Mark Beaman, published privately in 1994. I reproduce Beaman's discourse on the merits of 'loon' versus 'diver', just to demonstrate how consideration of the question from a broad (and particularly a long-term) perspective convinced us, at the time, that there was some merit in adopting 'loon'. "The use of 'loon' in north America and 'diver' in the Old world for members of the Gaviidae is a long-established dichotomy but one that must be addressed if a standardised world list of English bird names is to be achieved. Although recognising that 'diver' is dear to the hearts of ornithologists in the British Isles, 'loon' seems to me to have the edge. Although now used mainly in North America, 'loon' originated as a bird name in Britain and has a long history of use, dating back to at least 1634 in the literature (Simpson & Weiner 1989). The word derives of the Old Norse lómr (the primary sense of which is moan, i.e. moaning bird: see Lockwood 1984), by way of 'loom' and 'loone', and so has an ancient lineage. To my mind 'loon' has the advantage of being unique to the Gaviidae in the same way that 'grebe' is unique to Podicipedidae, while 'diver' has a much wider range of meaning that extends well beyond bird names. Even if the two rival names are considered to have equal merit, the claims of 'loon' to become the standard name for worldwide use are strengthened by the fact that all five Gavia species breed in North America and particularly because, owing to the much larger population of English-speakers in that continent, a greater number of people are familiar with the name. (The idea, prevalent in some quarters in the British Isles, that the name 'loon' stems from the fact that the eerie, wailing cries of these birds recall the strange sounds made by lunatics or 'loonies' is a misconception)." Mark Beaman's book contains similarly interesting and informative text on many other contentious bird names, including 'skua' versus 'jaeger'. While I don't wish to start another debate on English bird names, especially since I would not necessarily wish to defend the use of certain names that appear in the second edition Bird Guide, I think we should bear in mind that bird names are not always set in stone; sometimes they evolve and change, according to the preference of the majority, or even (alas) the whim of an individual in a position of influence. Ten years after 'loon' was given priority in the Collins Bird Guide, I hear almost* no-one here referring to the birds as anything other than 'divers'. On this basis, I'd be inclined to concede that we should perhaps have reverted to the more familiar name (on this side of the Atlantic) 'diver', in the same way as we abandoned the misguided 'Parasitic Skua' and reverted to Arctic Skua (though Beaman did make a good case for the adoption of 'Parasitic'). On the other hand, if I had grown up in North America I'd have probably strongly resisted any attempt to replace the rather beautiful and evocative name 'loon' with such an ordinary name as 'diver'. Perhaps we just need to give it a little more time?! In any case, I hope the odd questionable name (and the shocking number of typos, especially in the book's index) do not detract too much from your enjoyment of the book. Regards, Killian * I would have said 'no-one' if it had not been for the gent who stopped to chat to me in Galway the other day and asked "if there were any loons out there?" However, I doubt that he had ever seen a copy of the Collins Bird Guide... -------------------------------------------------- From: "Richard Mills"Subject: Re: That Book From: colin.mcnamee AT PRINTPOST.IE Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 10:19:42 -0000 Hi The new guide is nothing short of brilliant. I have not seen a field guide that comes close. The first edition was the benchmark for field guides but this raised the bar considerably. I like Eamonn, was surprised with some species - took me a while to work out Isabelline Warbler ( thankfully I've seen it) - but Maghreb Wheatear means I've to go back to Morocco again ! The atlantic islands pigeons plate is stunning and I must say I liked Hypocolius and some of the re-worked owls too. The yanks are a real improvement on the previous edition. It wouldn't take too much too expand it to all of the western palearctic - now there's a thought ! This was certainly worth waiting for and no doubt it's possible to pick a few holes in it but there is no other field guide that comes up to it. If you haven't got this book yet - you should. (Fiver to the usual address Killian !) Colin -----Original Message----- From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of Fitzharris, Jim Sent: 10 March 2010 10:06 To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE Subject: Re: That Book Killian, What was your response to the gent in Galway? Something along the lines of:- "There are indeed DIVERS out there but the LOONS are on the shore looking at them ............" Cheers, Jim. -----Original Message----- From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of Killian Mullarney Sent: 10 March 2010 00:16 To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE Subject: Re: That Book Hi Richard, You might be surprised to find, if you take a look at your old copy of the Collins Bird Guide, that the divers are 'loons' in there too! A few weeks ago I responded to a complaint about the choice of 'loon' over 'diver' in a thread on Birdforum, not necessarily to defend it, but to explain how it came about. Here is what I wrote then: As those of us who have been around for a few years will know, the subject of English bird names is a highly emotive matter. It was probably never more of an issue than back in the mid-90s when there was a lot of effort put into trying to achieve a standardised list of English bird names. We may question now what the absolute imperative for standarisation was, but back then it seemed, to some at least, really important. One of the most thoughtful contributions to the debate came in the form of a small booklet entitled Palearctic Birds: a Checklist of the birds of Europe, North Africa and Asia by Mark Beaman, published privately in 1994. I reproduce Beaman's discourse on the merits of 'loon' versus 'diver', just to demonstrate how consideration of the question from a broad (and particularly a long-term) perspective convinced us, at the time, that there was some merit in adopting 'loon'. "The use of 'loon' in north America and 'diver' in the Old world for members of the Gaviidae is a long-established dichotomy but one that must be addressed if a standardised world list of English bird names is to be achieved. Although recognising that 'diver' is dear to the hearts of ornithologists in the British Isles, 'loon' seems to me to have the edge. Although now used mainly in North America, 'loon' originated as a bird name in Britain and has a long history of use, dating back to at least 1634 in the literature (Simpson & Weiner 1989). The word derives of the Old Norse lómr (the primary sense of which is moan, i.e. moaning bird: see Lockwood 1984), by way of 'loom' and 'loone', and so has an ancient lineage. To my mind 'loon' has the advantage of being unique to the Gaviidae in the same way that 'grebe' is unique to Podicipedidae, while 'diver' has a much wider range of meaning that extends well beyond bird names. Even if the two rival names are considered to have equal merit, the claims of 'loon' to become the standard name for worldwide use are strengthened by the fact that all five Gavia species breed in North America and particularly because, owing to the much larger population of English-speakers in that continent, a greater number of people are familiar with the name. (The idea, prevalent in some quarters in the British Isles, that the name 'loon' stems from the fact that the eerie, wailing cries of these birds recall the strange sounds made by lunatics or 'loonies' is a misconception)." Mark Beaman's book contains similarly interesting and informative text on many other contentious bird names, including 'skua' versus 'jaeger'. While I don't wish to start another debate on English bird names, especially since I would not necessarily wish to defend the use of certain names that appear in the second edition Bird Guide, I think we should bear in mind that bird names are not always set in stone; sometimes they evolve and change, according to the preference of the majority, or even (alas) the whim of an individual in a position of influence. Ten years after 'loon' was given priority in the Collins Bird Guide, I hear almost* no-one here referring to the birds as anything other than 'divers'. On this basis, I'd be inclined to concede that we should perhaps have reverted to the more familiar name (on this side of the Atlantic) 'diver', in the same way as we abandoned the misguided 'Parasitic Skua' and reverted to Arctic Skua (though Beaman did make a good case for the adoption of 'Parasitic'). On the other hand, if I had grown up in North America I'd have probably strongly resisted any attempt to replace the rather beautiful and evocative name 'loon' with such an ordinary name as 'diver'. Perhaps we just need to give it a little more time?! In any case, I hope the odd questionable name (and the shocking number of typos, especially in the book's index) do not detract too much from your enjoyment of the book. Regards, Killian * I would have said 'no-one' if it had not been for the gent who stopped to chat to me in Galway the other day and asked "if there were any loons out there?" However, I doubt that he had ever seen a copy of the Collins Bird Guide... -------------------------------------------------- From: "Richard Mills"Subject: Re: The Kilcoole Rarities From: John Coveney Birds <birds AT ECOVENEY.IE> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 10:15:10 -0000 Joe, Thanks for that. Good to know it's being followed up. It may be that it will not be possible or perhaps even desirable to publish every detail. At the end of the day, if it can be verified that an honest mistake was made, that's all that's needed. John C -----Original Message----- From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of Joseph Doolan Sent: 10 March 2010 09:44 To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE Subject: Re: The Kilcoole Rarities John/Micheal et al. I will clarify this issue during the week when I have all the facts. I made contact with Brian and it's a more complex and sensitive issue than you imagine. Regards. Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mícheál Casey"Subject: Re: The Kilcoole Rarities From: Seamus Feeney <Flyfisher1 AT EIRCOM.NET> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 10:10:27 -0000 What a cliffhanger. Tune in next week, same Bird-time, same Bird-channel. DA-DA-DA-DA-DA-DA-DA-DA-BIRDMAN! I can hardly wait. Séamus. -------------------------------------------------- From: "Martin Styles"Subject: Re: That Book From: "Fitzharris, Jim" <Jim.Fitzharris AT SMURFITKAPPA.COM> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 10:06:26 -0000 Killian, What was your response to the gent in Galway? Something along the lines of:- "There are indeed DIVERS out there but the LOONS are on the shore looking at them ............" Cheers, Jim. -----Original Message----- From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of Killian Mullarney Sent: 10 March 2010 00:16 To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE Subject: Re: That Book Hi Richard, You might be surprised to find, if you take a look at your old copy of the Collins Bird Guide, that the divers are 'loons' in there too! A few weeks ago I responded to a complaint about the choice of 'loon' over 'diver' in a thread on Birdforum, not necessarily to defend it, but to explain how it came about. Here is what I wrote then: As those of us who have been around for a few years will know, the subject of English bird names is a highly emotive matter. It was probably never more of an issue than back in the mid-90s when there was a lot of effort put into trying to achieve a standardised list of English bird names. We may question now what the absolute imperative for standarisation was, but back then it seemed, to some at least, really important. One of the most thoughtful contributions to the debate came in the form of a small booklet entitled Palearctic Birds: a Checklist of the birds of Europe, North Africa and Asia by Mark Beaman, published privately in 1994. I reproduce Beaman's discourse on the merits of 'loon' versus 'diver', just to demonstrate how consideration of the question from a broad (and particularly a long-term) perspective convinced us, at the time, that there was some merit in adopting 'loon'. "The use of 'loon' in north America and 'diver' in the Old world for members of the Gaviidae is a long-established dichotomy but one that must be addressed if a standardised world list of English bird names is to be achieved. Although recognising that 'diver' is dear to the hearts of ornithologists in the British Isles, 'loon' seems to me to have the edge. Although now used mainly in North America, 'loon' originated as a bird name in Britain and has a long history of use, dating back to at least 1634 in the literature (Simpson & Weiner 1989). The word derives of the Old Norse lómr (the primary sense of which is moan, i.e. moaning bird: see Lockwood 1984), by way of 'loom' and 'loone', and so has an ancient lineage. To my mind 'loon' has the advantage of being unique to the Gaviidae in the same way that 'grebe' is unique to Podicipedidae, while 'diver' has a much wider range of meaning that extends well beyond bird names. Even if the two rival names are considered to have equal merit, the claims of 'loon' to become the standard name for worldwide use are strengthened by the fact that all five Gavia species breed in North America and particularly because, owing to the much larger population of English-speakers in that continent, a greater number of people are familiar with the name. (The idea, prevalent in some quarters in the British Isles, that the name 'loon' stems from the fact that the eerie, wailing cries of these birds recall the strange sounds made by lunatics or 'loonies' is a misconception)." Mark Beaman's book contains similarly interesting and informative text on many other contentious bird names, including 'skua' versus 'jaeger'. While I don't wish to start another debate on English bird names, especially since I would not necessarily wish to defend the use of certain names that appear in the second edition Bird Guide, I think we should bear in mind that bird names are not always set in stone; sometimes they evolve and change, according to the preference of the majority, or even (alas) the whim of an individual in a position of influence. Ten years after 'loon' was given priority in the Collins Bird Guide, I hear almost* no-one here referring to the birds as anything other than 'divers'. On this basis, I'd be inclined to concede that we should perhaps have reverted to the more familiar name (on this side of the Atlantic) 'diver', in the same way as we abandoned the misguided 'Parasitic Skua' and reverted to Arctic Skua (though Beaman did make a good case for the adoption of 'Parasitic'). On the other hand, if I had grown up in North America I'd have probably strongly resisted any attempt to replace the rather beautiful and evocative name 'loon' with such an ordinary name as 'diver'. Perhaps we just need to give it a little more time?! In any case, I hope the odd questionable name (and the shocking number of typos, especially in the book's index) do not detract too much from your enjoyment of the book. Regards, Killian * I would have said 'no-one' if it had not been for the gent who stopped to chat to me in Galway the other day and asked "if there were any loons out there?" However, I doubt that he had ever seen a copy of the Collins Bird Guide... -------------------------------------------------- From: "Richard Mills"Subject: Re: The Kilcoole Rarities From: Martin Styles <mdstyles AT EIRCOM.NET> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 09:46:08 -0000 OH! Now even I am intrigued. M On Wed, 10 Mar 2010 09:43:45 -0000, Joseph DoolanSubject: Re: The Kilcoole Rarities From: Joseph Doolan <joseph AT INDIGO.IE> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 09:43:45 -0000 John/Micheal et al. I will clarify this issue during the week when I have all the facts. I made contact with Brian and it's a more complex and sensitive issue than you imagine. Regards. Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mícheál Casey"Subject: Re: Coll 2nd Ed From: Killian Mullarney <kmullarney AT EIRCOM.NET> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 09:38:43 -0000 Hello Liam, The large format first edition has not been available for several years but a large format second edition is scheduled for publication later this year, all going well. In the meantime the second edition is available in both hardback and softback at usual field guide size. n"Subject: The Kilcoole Rarities From: Mícheál Casey <michealjcasey AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 09:25:03 +0000 ......and so the mystery deepened, boys and girls, and nobody in the big dark forest said anything. Then one morning without any warning, the Scribe tore out all the bad stained pages out of his book of birds and burned them in his fire, and the big bright sun shone down from ON HIGH. The little French birdies sang from the fat Wicklow P&T wire, and then they fell in love and settled down in semi-detached nests just outside Bray and made little Fan-tailed Cetti babies. And that is how the myth of the Kilcoole Rarities was born. THE END On 10 Mar 2010, at 08:20, John Coveney Birds wrote: > I see that all of the entries attributed to Brian Carruthers have been > removed from www.irishbirding.com. Any chance of an update on what happened? > > However, the following record remains on the IRBC's provisional list for > 2009. It was undoubtedly a GSW based on the photos posted and now deleted. > > Great Spotted Woodpecker Dendrocopos major 1 Adult > 23-Dec-09 23-Dec-09 Glen of the downs Wicklow B.Carruthers > ? B.Carruthers irishbirding.com > > John CSubject: Re: Coll 2nd Ed From: Eamonn <eamonn AT COLLIERKITCHENS.IE> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 09:09:15 -0000 Hi Liam, Simply search for Collins Bird Guide Large Format and it will appear. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of Liam O'Brien Sent: 10 March 2010 08:31 To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE Subject: Coll 2nd Ed After the praise this book is receiving I went to Amazon to order it. The edition shown, hardback, didn't say what size it was. With increasing age I need the larger edition to see things more easily. Could anyone advise? Thanks Liam O'B - tallaght ##################################################################################### This e-mail message has been scanned for Viruses and Content and cleared by MailMarshal #####################################################################################Subject: Re: Fantasy Birding From: Eamonn <eamonn AT COLLIERKITCHENS.IE> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 09:06:31 -0000 It gets curiouser and curiouser. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of John Coveney Birds Sent: 10 March 2010 08:21 To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE Subject: Re: Fantasy Birding I see that all of the entries attributed to Brian Carruthers have been removed from www.irishbirding.com. Any chance of an update on what happened? However, the following record remains on the IRBC's provisional list for 2009. It was undoubtedly a GSW based on the photos posted and now deleted. Great Spotted Woodpecker Dendrocopos major 1 Adult 23-Dec-09 23-Dec-09 Glen of the downs Wicklow B.Carruthers ? B.Carruthers irishbirding.com John C ##################################################################################### This e-mail message has been scanned for Viruses and Content and cleared by MailMarshal #####################################################################################Subject: Coll 2nd Ed From: Liam O'Brien <lob1947 AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 08:31:15 +0000 After the praise this book is receiving I went to Amazon to order it. The edition shown, hardback, didn't say what size it was. With increasing age I need the larger edition to see things more easily. Could anyone advise? Thanks Liam O'B - tallaghtSubject: Re: Fantasy Birding From: John Coveney Birds <birds AT ECOVENEY.IE> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 08:20:57 -0000 I see that all of the entries attributed to Brian Carruthers have been removed from www.irishbirding.com. Any chance of an update on what happened? However, the following record remains on the IRBC's provisional list for 2009. It was undoubtedly a GSW based on the photos posted and now deleted. Great Spotted Woodpecker Dendrocopos major 1 Adult 23-Dec-09 23-Dec-09 Glen of the downs Wicklow B.Carruthers ? B.Carruthers irishbirding.com John CSubject: Re: That Book From: Richard Mills <birdpics AT NEWSGUY.COM> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 08:11:51 +0000 Hi Killian, Many thanks for that most detailed explanation. I'm afraid that I lost my previous field guide many years ago and still occasionally refer to the much older Peterson, Mountfort, Hollom one! Indeed the name loon is certainly much more evocative than diver, and hearing the call echoing across a lake on a calm day is magical, but I guess that old traditions die hard. I can live with both however. Regards, Richard. At 00:15 10/03/2010, you wrote: >Hi Richard, > >You might be surprised to find, if you take a >look at your old copy of the Collins Bird Guide, >that the divers are 'loons' in there too! A few >weeks ago I responded to a complaint about the >choice of 'loon' over 'diver' in a thread on >Birdforum, not necessarily to defend it, but to >explain how it came about. Here is what I wrote then: > >As those of us who have been around for a few >years will know, the subject of English bird >names is a highly emotive matter. It was >probably never more of an issue than back in the >mid-90s when there was a lot of effort put into >trying to achieve a standardised list of English >bird names. We may question now what the >absolute imperative for standarisation was, but >back then it seemed, to some at least, really important. > >One of the most thoughtful contributions to the >debate came in the form of a small booklet >entitled Palearctic Birds: a Checklist of the >birds of Europe, North Africa and Asia by Mark >Beaman, published privately in 1994. I reproduce >Beaman's discourse on the merits of 'loon' >versus 'diver', just to demonstrate how >consideration of the question from a broad (and >particularly a long-term) perspective convinced >us, at the time, that there was some merit in adopting 'loon'. > >"The use of 'loon' in north America and 'diver' >in the Old world for members of the Gaviidae is >a long-established dichotomy but one that must >be addressed if a standardised world list of >English bird names is to be achieved. Although >recognising that 'diver' is dear to the hearts >of ornithologists in the British Isles, 'loon' >seems to me to have the edge. Although now used >mainly in North America, 'loon' originated as a >bird name in Britain and has a long history of >use, dating back to at least 1634 in the >literature (Simpson & Weiner 1989). The word >derives of the Old Norse lómr (the primary >sense of which is moan, i.e. moaning bird: see >Lockwood 1984), by way of 'loom' and 'loone', >and so has an ancient lineage. To my mind 'loon' >has the advantage of being unique to the >Gaviidae in the same way that 'grebe' is unique >to Podicipedidae, while 'diver' has a much wider >range of meaning that extends well beyond bird >names. Even if the two rival names are >considered to have equal merit, the claims of >'loon' to become the standard name for worldwide >use are strengthened by the fact that all five >Gavia species breed in North America and >particularly because, owing to the much larger >population of English-speakers in that >continent, a greater number of people are >familiar with the name. (The idea, prevalent in >some quarters in the British Isles, that the >name 'loon' stems from the fact that the eerie, >wailing cries of these birds recall the strange >sounds made by lunatics or 'loonies' is a misconception)." > >Mark Beaman's book contains similarly >interesting and informative text on many other >contentious bird names, including 'skua' versus 'jaeger'. > >While I don't wish to start another debate on >English bird names, especially since I would not >necessarily wish to defend the use of certain >names that appear in the second edition Bird >Guide, I think we should bear in mind that bird >names are not always set in stone; sometimes >they evolve and change, according to the >preference of the majority, or even (alas) the >whim of an individual in a position of influence. > >Ten years after 'loon' was given priority in the >Collins Bird Guide, I hear almost* no-one here >referring to the birds as anything other than >'divers'. On this basis, I'd be inclined to >concede that we should perhaps have reverted to >the more familiar name (on this side of the >Atlantic) 'diver', in the same way as we >abandoned the misguided 'Parasitic Skua' and >reverted to Arctic Skua (though Beaman did make >a good case for the adoption of 'Parasitic'). On >the other hand, if I had grown up in North >America I'd have probably strongly resisted any >attempt to replace the rather beautiful and >evocative name 'loon' with such an ordinary name >as 'diver'. Perhaps we just need to give it a little more time?! > >In any case, I hope the odd questionable name >(and the shocking number of typos, especially in >the book's index) do not detract too much from your enjoyment of the book. > >Regards, > >Killian > >* I would have said 'no-one' if it had not been >for the gent who stopped to chat to me in Galway >the other day and asked "if there were any loons >out there?" However, I doubt that he had ever >seen a copy of the Collins Bird Guide... > > >-------------------------------------------------- >From: "Richard Mills"Subject: Re: Glasses found at Lough Gur From: Martin Styles <mdstyles AT EIRCOM.NET> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 08:18:30 -0000 Not me this time! M On Tue, 09 Mar 2010 20:49:20 -0000, john murphySubject: Re: That Book From: Killian Mullarney <kmullarney AT EIRCOM.NET> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 00:15:39 -0000 Hi Richard, You might be surprised to find, if you take a look at your old copy of the Collins Bird Guide, that the divers are 'loons' in there too! A few weeks ago I responded to a complaint about the choice of 'loon' over 'diver' in a thread on Birdforum, not necessarily to defend it, but to explain how it came about. Here is what I wrote then: As those of us who have been around for a few years will know, the subject of English bird names is a highly emotive matter. It was probably never more of an issue than back in the mid-90s when there was a lot of effort put into trying to achieve a standardised list of English bird names. We may question now what the absolute imperative for standarisation was, but back then it seemed, to some at least, really important. One of the most thoughtful contributions to the debate came in the form of a small booklet entitled Palearctic Birds: a Checklist of the birds of Europe, North Africa and Asia by Mark Beaman, published privately in 1994. I reproduce Beaman's discourse on the merits of 'loon' versus 'diver', just to demonstrate how consideration of the question from a broad (and particularly a long-term) perspective convinced us, at the time, that there was some merit in adopting 'loon'. "The use of 'loon' in north America and 'diver' in the Old world for members of the Gaviidae is a long-established dichotomy but one that must be addressed if a standardised world list of English bird names is to be achieved. Although recognising that 'diver' is dear to the hearts of ornithologists in the British Isles, 'loon' seems to me to have the edge. Although now used mainly in North America, 'loon' originated as a bird name in Britain and has a long history of use, dating back to at least 1634 in the literature (Simpson & Weiner 1989). The word derives of the Old Norse lómr (the primary sense of which is moan, i.e. moaning bird: see Lockwood 1984), by way of 'loom' and 'loone', and so has an ancient lineage. To my mind 'loon' has the advantage of being unique to the Gaviidae in the same way that 'grebe' is unique to Podicipedidae, while 'diver' has a much wider range of meaning that extends well beyond bird names. Even if the two rival names are considered to have equal merit, the claims of 'loon' to become the standard name for worldwide use are strengthened by the fact that all five Gavia species breed in North America and particularly because, owing to the much larger population of English-speakers in that continent, a greater number of people are familiar with the name. (The idea, prevalent in some quarters in the British Isles, that the name 'loon' stems from the fact that the eerie, wailing cries of these birds recall the strange sounds made by lunatics or 'loonies' is a misconception)." Mark Beaman's book contains similarly interesting and informative text on many other contentious bird names, including 'skua' versus 'jaeger'. While I don't wish to start another debate on English bird names, especially since I would not necessarily wish to defend the use of certain names that appear in the second edition Bird Guide, I think we should bear in mind that bird names are not always set in stone; sometimes they evolve and change, according to the preference of the majority, or even (alas) the whim of an individual in a position of influence. Ten years after 'loon' was given priority in the Collins Bird Guide, I hear almost* no-one here referring to the birds as anything other than 'divers'. On this basis, I'd be inclined to concede that we should perhaps have reverted to the more familiar name (on this side of the Atlantic) 'diver', in the same way as we abandoned the misguided 'Parasitic Skua' and reverted to Arctic Skua (though Beaman did make a good case for the adoption of 'Parasitic'). On the other hand, if I had grown up in North America I'd have probably strongly resisted any attempt to replace the rather beautiful and evocative name 'loon' with such an ordinary name as 'diver'. Perhaps we just need to give it a little more time?! In any case, I hope the odd questionable name (and the shocking number of typos, especially in the book's index) do not detract too much from your enjoyment of the book. Regards, Killian * I would have said 'no-one' if it had not been for the gent who stopped to chat to me in Galway the other day and asked "if there were any loons out there?" However, I doubt that he had ever seen a copy of the Collins Bird Guide... -------------------------------------------------- From: "Richard Mills"Subject: Re: That Book From: Richard Mills <birdpics AT NEWSGUY.COM> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 22:54:05 +0000 A superb book indeed. I have just had the pleasure of reviewing it. One thing though, why have all the divers disappeared and turned into loons? Has there been some change that I've missed? Richard. At 20:56 09/03/2010, you wrote: >Hello boys, >On a change of subject as it appears nobody is going to explain the two >Warblers in a hurry. >I have just received my spanking new copy of the 2nd Edition of the Collins >Bird Guide and it is almost beyond description. It really is an amazing >publication. The art and print quality are simply fantastic. >I would encourage anybody with a birthday coming up to suggest to your loved >one that this is what you would like as a gift. They will love you even more >when they see that it can be purchased on Amazon UK delivered for €20 !!!! > >The one complaint I would have is that with the inclusion of species such as >Seebohm's, Kurdish and Maghreb Wheatears it means that I know even less than >I thought I did about birds !! > >I particularly like Nile Walley Sunbird :-) > >Don't delay, buy it today. > >Bob > > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2731 >- Release Date: 03/08/10 19:33:00Subject: Re: Zitting Cisticola at Kilcoole? From: Lee G R Evans <LGREUK400 AT AOL.COM> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 16:51:55 EST Thanks guys - I will delete both records from this year's 'pending' folder - still like to see a pic of the putative 'Sedge Warbler' though Until next time.... LeeSubject: Re: That Book From: Eamonn O'Donnell <bobolink300 AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 21:33:13 +0000 I should have stressed I got it hardback. On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 9:18 PM, Mike O'KeeffeSubject: Re: Zitting Cisticola at Kilcoole? From: Eugene ARCHER <wagtail AT FREE.FR> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 22:32:03 +0100 Hi all, I think there must have been a mix-up with photos or something as all references and photos of Fan-tailed / Cetti's or Sedge Warbler from Kilcoole seem to have disappeared from the website. Eugene Coilin MacLochlainn wrote: > Has either Brian Carruthers or Joe Doolan been contacted yet for an > explanation? It is strange that a bird of such rarity would not have got the > 'Red Alert' treatment right off the bat, so there is definitely something > odd about it. > > Could it be that Brian thought he had seen or heard a Fan-tailed Warbler, > maybe got a few fuzzy photos of it, and then later on when he was comparing > his photos with pics he had taken overseas, put a Cetti's pic in the same > folder and ended up accidentally sending it off to irishbirding.com with the > rest? Perhaps he didn't get any decent photos of the bird at all, but just > sent his overseas FTWarbler shots as evidence of previous experience of the > species. Either way, could Joe Doolan please find out what happened. > > It wasn't a hoax, though maybe it was a case of misidentification. But I'd > say there's a good chance it was a genuine FTW record, because they are > expected to make it to Ireland in due course anyway, with global warming, > and springtime is a likely enough time for an arrival. > > Coilin > > > > > On 08/03/2010 21:28, "Richard Hunter"Subject: Re: That Book From: Mike O'Keeffe <okeeffeml AT EIRCOM.NET> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 21:18:52 -0000 Easons have the paperback for under €20 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eamonn O'Donnell"Subject: That Book From: Eamonn O'Donnell <bobolink300 AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 20:56:57 +0000 Hello boys, On a change of subject as it appears nobody is going to explain the two Warblers in a hurry. I have just received my spanking new copy of the 2nd Edition of the Collins Bird Guide and it is almost beyond description. It really is an amazing publication. The art and print quality are simply fantastic. I would encourage anybody with a birthday coming up to suggest to your loved one that this is what you would like as a gift. They will love you even more when they see that it can be purchased on Amazon UK delivered for €20 !!!! The one complaint I would have is that with the inclusion of species such as Seebohm's, Kurdish and Maghreb Wheatears it means that I know even less than I thought I did about birds !! I particularly like Nile Walley Sunbird :-) Don't delay, buy it today. BobSubject: Re: Glasses found at Lough Gur From: Eamonn O'Donnell <bobolink300 AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 20:58:30 +0000 Who was it that said they went and did not see the Grebe ?? Perhaps this is the reason, they lost their glasses ??!! Bob On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 8:49 PM, john murphySubject: Glasses found at Lough Gur From: john murphy <jemurphy AT ESATCLEAR.IE> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 20:49:20 +0000 Hi All, James Hayes found a pair of specs on a rock at the Hilside at Lough Gur. If you lost them during a recent trip to see the Pied-billed Grebe the please reply to this mail and we will re-unite you with your eyes. Cheers, John.Subject: Re: Zitting Cisticola at Kilcoole? From: Coilin MacLochlainn <environs AT IOL.IE> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 20:02:37 +0000 Has either Brian Carruthers or Joe Doolan been contacted yet for an explanation? It is strange that a bird of such rarity would not have got the 'Red Alert' treatment right off the bat, so there is definitely something odd about it. Could it be that Brian thought he had seen or heard a Fan-tailed Warbler, maybe got a few fuzzy photos of it, and then later on when he was comparing his photos with pics he had taken overseas, put a Cetti's pic in the same folder and ended up accidentally sending it off to irishbirding.com with the rest? Perhaps he didn't get any decent photos of the bird at all, but just sent his overseas FTWarbler shots as evidence of previous experience of the species. Either way, could Joe Doolan please find out what happened. It wasn't a hoax, though maybe it was a case of misidentification. But I'd say there's a good chance it was a genuine FTW record, because they are expected to make it to Ireland in due course anyway, with global warming, and springtime is a likely enough time for an arrival. Coilin On 08/03/2010 21:28, "Richard Hunter"Subject: Re: Fan-tailed Warbler in Ireland From: Lee G R Evans <LGREUK400 AT AOL.COM> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 14:12:55 EST No, certainly not everything but in recent years, NONE of his records have been accepted in Britain, even by the local Bedfordshire panel (his last submission may have been a flyover Siberian Thrush over Sharpenhoe Clappers, Beds, identified on call). As far as I know, he does not submit descriptions any more to back up any of his reports (which include flyover Twite, Waxwing, Tundra Bean Goose - absolutely mega rare locally). At the last count, there were still 434 records of Ian Wallace's still on the 'official' vaults, although many important ones have been reviewed and removed, whilst many Meinertzhagen claims languish unscathed There are still a further 337 records languishing on the 'official' British system that really ought not to be, made up of fabricated sightings by well-known and repeat perpetrators. Of course, in addition to that, we have the traversty of the Northumberland Slender-billed Curlew, a most ridiculous claim, but clearly a genuine bird sighting but just muddled in its identification and ageing. I am also hoping that, after 15 years or more, Britain's first undoubted Lesser Sandplover (Mongolian Sand Plover) will also merit the recognition it truly deserves, and not continue to be published as a Greater. All the very best LeeSubject: Re: Fan-tailed Warbler in Ireland From: Mark Shorten <mshorten AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 18:59:56 +0000 Lee, is everything that JTRS saw now regarded as string, I would think that is pretty unfair. Mark On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 6:55 PM, irishbirdnewsSubject: Re: Fan-tailed Warbler in Ireland From: irishbirdnews <irishbirdnews AT EIRCOM.NET> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 18:55:46 -0000 As far as I know it is but perhaps a person from IRBC should answer that one. If not, then why not? Eric ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lee G R Evans"Subject: Re: Fan-tailed Warbler in Ireland From: Lee G R Evans <LGREUK400 AT AOL.COM> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 13:43:57 EST Eric, Is the 1962 claim of FTW in Ireland still officially accepted? If so, why? Best wishes LeeSubject: Re: Fan-tailed Warbler in Ireland From: Lee G R Evans <LGREUK400 AT AOL.COM> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 13:39:58 EST Cheers Mark - totally forgot about the April 1985 record. Can anyone remind me of the circumstances? Best wishes LeeSubject: Re: Fan-tailed Warbler in Ireland From: irishbirdnews <irishbirdnews AT EIRCOM.NET> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 18:39:24 -0000 You beat me to it Mark. If the FTW is gen, it would be the first 'mainland' record and Ireland's 3rd. As for checking the site out. Apparently several people have gone on extensive 'wire hunts' but, despite exhaustive searches, no true matches of the wires have been sighted...oh, and no sign of the birds either. No further comment from anyone involved yet Lee. We are all still very much in the dark and the specualtion continues. Eric ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Shorten"Subject: Re: Fan-tailed Warbler in Ireland From: Mark Shorten <mshorten AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 18:29:03 +0000 Dear Lee, the first British fantailed warbler was on Cape Clear, Cork 23rd April 1962 ( oooops I meant first Irish). Second record in 1985. Mark On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 6:17 PM, Lee G R EvansSubject: Fan-tailed Warbler in Ireland From: Lee G R Evans <LGREUK400 AT AOL.COM> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 13:17:10 EST Has there been any further confirmation of Ireland's first-ever Fan-tailed Warbler yet, said to have been photographed at Kilcoole? Has anyone spoken with the photographer and confirmed if there has been a mix up with photographs? It seems likely that both the Cetti's Warbler and Fan-tailed Warbler were photographed in Spain but it would be nice to get it sorted once and for all. Has anyone checked the site out since the first initial visits to the area? Best wishes LeeSubject: Re: wheatear From: Eamonn <eamonn AT COLLIERKITCHENS.IE> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 13:42:00 -0000 OOPS. All this sunshine is very off-putting !! http://www.surfbirds.com/cgi-bin/gallery/display.cgi?gallery=gallery10 -----Original Message----- From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of irishbirdnews Sent: 09 March 2010 13:39 To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE Subject: Re: wheatear Hi Eamonn wish I was in Texas and then I'd go and look at the Wheatear. However, stuck in Dublin so a link to a site where images of this Wheatear can be seen would help!!! ;-) Eric ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eamonn"Subject: Re: wheatear From: irishbirdnews <irishbirdnews AT EIRCOM.NET> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 13:38:51 -0000 Hi Eamonn wish I was in Texas and then I'd go and look at the Wheatear. However, stuck in Dublin so a link to a site where images of this Wheatear can be seen would help!!! ;-) Eric ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eamonn"Subject: wheatear From: Eamonn <eamonn AT COLLIERKITCHENS.IE> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 13:11:43 -0000 While we wait breathlessly to hear the story about the Warblers maybe somebody could have a look at the Northern Wheatear found in Texas and tell me is it just in a state of moult or what else would cause it to look so ragged. Bob ##################################################################################### This e-mail message has been scanned for Viruses and Content and cleared by MailMarshal #####################################################################################Subject: Re: Fantasy Birding From: irishbirdnews <irishbirdnews AT EIRCOM.NET> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 10:14:55 -0000 Like others Barry, I agree that no-one is accusing Brian of anything but this is now Tuesday morning and there has been no comment from anyone involved in the finding of this remarkable duo. As I said, what are the chances of thinking you've found a Sedge Warbler in March, photographing it and the images revealing that you've not just found a Fan-tailed Warbler but also a Cetti's...and you didn't realise that there were two birds on the wires which just so happen to be mega birds for Ireland? I suspect it may be that the wrong shots were sent but without a comment from anyone who knows, then speculation is all anyone is left with. It would be great to know more. Eric ----- Original Message ----- From: "bom"Subject: Re: Fantasy Birding From: Eamonn <eamonn AT COLLIERKITCHENS.IE> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 08:44:18 -0000 Perhaps Bom you might ask him if he realized he had photographed two different birds (and maybe has more shots of the Cetti's) and the rarity of both and put an end to the speculation. I don't think anybody has been assassinated here. Perhaps Brian doesn't realize what he has found and needs to be told. bob -----Original Message----- From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of bom Sent: 08 March 2010 20:58 To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE Subject: Re: Fantasy Birding I know Brian Carruthers and believe that there is no circumstance in which he would even contemplate anything like the "hoax" that he is being accused of. He deserves, at least, to be asked about his photos before the ritual character assassination begins. bom Fitzpatrick, Dara wrote: > It should be straight forward. Does anyone know Brian Carruthers or > could give him a call? > In fairness it was sunny yesterday and there has been Cetti's seen at > this site before. > I prefer to think these pics are the results of a cracking days birding > (in Ireland) and not what could be a costly hoax for many. > Lee do you have examples of hoaxes on the 'mainland'? > > Dara > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of > Lee G R Evans > Sent: 08 March 2010 09:32 > To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE > Subject: Fantasy Birding > > Can anyone confirm whether there has been a Fan-tailed Warbler in > Ireland > or not as the sighting has been 'mega-alerted' in Britain on the > assorted > Information Services. Is it yet another example of internet fabrication, > > whereby photographs proclaiming birds to be taken at a certain location > were > actually taken many hundreds, if not thousands, of miles away. This is > an > increasing form of internet activity > > Please advise > > Best wishes > > Lee > > -- Barry O'Mahony Cork, Ireland ##################################################################################### This e-mail message has been scanned for Viruses and Content and cleared by MailMarshal #####################################################################################Subject: Re: Fantasy Birding From: Mike O'Keeffe <okeeffeml AT EIRCOM.NET> Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 23:34:42 -0000 Lee, The Dublin white-rumped Swift is still under consideration. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest the record was a hoax. The biggest problem holding up the White-rumped record is its identity. Structurally it looks perfect for White-rumped Swift however the rump pattern seems atypical. I have heard it suggested the bird could be a Horus Swift but I think the structure is quite wrong for that species. If anyone has shots of White-rumped Swift (A, caffer) showing as wide a rump band as this bird I for one would love to see them. I am not going to add to the by now rampant speculation about the Wicklow warblers but would caution against drawing conclusions about the position of the sun based on the apparant shadows being cast. The only thing which I think can be concluded with any certainty is that the position of the observer relatve to the sun was different for the Cetti's shot than for the Zitting Cisticola shots. Its as though the photographer was standing on one side of the phone line to photograph one bird and on the opposite side to photograph the other. The "internal/external grade cable with earth" style phone line on which these birds were perched are very common so it would be very hard to pin-point exactly where these shots were taken without consulting with the photographer. And so we all await the full story. Regards Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lee G R Evans"Subject: Twitch hunt From: "Fitzpatrick, Dara" <d.fitzpatrick AT UCC.IE> Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 23:20:02 -0000 Hi Bom, That's good to know even though these sightings should not ideally need to be qualified. However, I can understand the disbelief of some birders who are eager to escape after the long winter to see a mega Spring passerine (or two). Congrats to Brian on such a remarkable duo which has brought about genuine disbelief among birders but stranger things have happened, e.g. waterthrush and solitary sand in the same puddle on cape! Thanks, Dara ________________________________ From: Irish Bird Network on behalf of bom Sent: Mon 08/03/2010 20:57 To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE Subject: Re: Fantasy Birding I know Brian Carruthers and believe that there is no circumstance in which he would even contemplate anything like the "hoax" that he is being accused of. He deserves, at least, to be asked about his photos before the ritual character assassination begins. bom Fitzpatrick, Dara wrote: > It should be straight forward. Does anyone know Brian Carruthers or > could give him a call? > In fairness it was sunny yesterday and there has been Cetti's seen at > this site before. > I prefer to think these pics are the results of a cracking days birding > (in Ireland) and not what could be a costly hoax for many. > Lee do you have examples of hoaxes on the 'mainland'? > > Dara > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of > Lee G R Evans > Sent: 08 March 2010 09:32 > To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE > Subject: Fantasy Birding > > Can anyone confirm whether there has been a Fan-tailed Warbler in > Ireland > or not as the sighting has been 'mega-alerted' in Britain on the > assorted > Information Services. Is it yet another example of internet fabrication, > > whereby photographs proclaiming birds to be taken at a certain location > were > actually taken many hundreds, if not thousands, of miles away. This is > an > increasing form of internet activity > > Please advise > > Best wishes > > Lee > > -- Barry O'Mahony Cork, IrelandSubject: Re: Fantasy Birding From: Seamus Feeney <Flyfisher1 AT EIRCOM.NET> Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 21:55:58 -0000 Ah, the price of fame or infamy, they all need their own Max or Clarence, eventually ;-) Séamus. -------------------------------------------------- From: "bom"Subject: Re: Zitting Cisticola at Kilcoole? From: Richard Hunter <rjhunter AT FSMAIL.NET> Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 22:28:49 +0100 I wouldn't like to comment if this is a hoax or not but it reminds me of a famous hoax in Wales a few years ago when a birder who was playing golf!!! claimed to have spotted a Stellars Eider (he even managed a photo). I think the claim was almost accepted when a Scandinavian birder recognised the photo as his own and blew the lid on the whole thing. Greatest hoaxes in birding history | RadleyIce I had the day off today and must admit I was tempted by the FTW but when the Cetti's came to light I thought it was too good to be true. Instead I drove 260 miles to stare at the reeds at Lough Atedaun for 3 hours and seen nothing.... I now see that the Pied Billed Grebe was relocated later in the day.... great!! RichardSubject: Re: Fantasy Birding From: Mícheál Casey <michealjcasey AT GMAIL.COM> Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 21:23:33 +0000 Hi Barry, I don't think there is any character assassination, it's just human nature that speculation fills the deafening silence. Nature abhors a vacuum and all that. He totally deserves every opportunity to flesh out the details of what may well prove to be a magic day in Kilcoole. Any chance you could contact him. The curiosity is killing me for one. Mícheál On 8 Mar 2010, at 20:57, bom wrote: > I know Brian Carruthers and believe that there is no circumstance in which he would even contemplate anything like the "hoax" that he is being accused of. > > He deserves, at least, to be asked about his photos before the ritual character assassination begins. > > bom > > > Fitzpatrick, Dara wrote: >> It should be straight forward. Does anyone know Brian Carruthers or >> could give him a call? >> In fairness it was sunny yesterday and there has been Cetti's seen at >> this site before. >> I prefer to think these pics are the results of a cracking days birding >> (in Ireland) and not what could be a costly hoax for many. >> Lee do you have examples of hoaxes on the 'mainland'? >> >> Dara >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of >> Lee G R Evans >> Sent: 08 March 2010 09:32 >> To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE >> Subject: Fantasy Birding >> >> Can anyone confirm whether there has been a Fan-tailed Warbler in >> Ireland or not as the sighting has been 'mega-alerted' in Britain on the >> assorted Information Services. Is it yet another example of internet fabrication, >> >> whereby photographs proclaiming birds to be taken at a certain location >> were actually taken many hundreds, if not thousands, of miles away. This is >> an increasing form of internet activity >> Please advise >> Best wishes >> Lee >> >> > > -- > Barry O'Mahony > Cork, IrelandSubject: Re: Fantasy Birding From: colin.mcnamee AT PRINTPOST.IE Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 21:21:27 -0000 This is really encouraging. It would be brilliant if those birds are still around. Perhaps you could contact him and ask where exactly the photo's were taken at Kilcoole in case people were looking in the wrong place. Regards Colin -----Original Message----- From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of bom Sent: 08 March 2010 20:58 To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE Subject: Re: Fantasy Birding I know Brian Carruthers and believe that there is no circumstance in which he would even contemplate anything like the "hoax" that he is being accused of. He deserves, at least, to be asked about his photos before the ritual character assassination begins. bom Fitzpatrick, Dara wrote: > It should be straight forward. Does anyone know Brian Carruthers or > could give him a call? > In fairness it was sunny yesterday and there has been Cetti's seen at > this site before. > I prefer to think these pics are the results of a cracking days birding > (in Ireland) and not what could be a costly hoax for many. > Lee do you have examples of hoaxes on the 'mainland'? > > Dara > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of > Lee G R Evans > Sent: 08 March 2010 09:32 > To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE > Subject: Fantasy Birding > > Can anyone confirm whether there has been a Fan-tailed Warbler in > Ireland > or not as the sighting has been 'mega-alerted' in Britain on the > assorted > Information Services. Is it yet another example of internet fabrication, > > whereby photographs proclaiming birds to be taken at a certain location > were > actually taken many hundreds, if not thousands, of miles away. This is > an > increasing form of internet activity > > Please advise > > Best wishes > > Lee > > -- Barry O'Mahony Cork, IrelandSubject: Re: Fantasy Birding From: bom <bomah AT EIRCOM.NET> Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 20:57:36 +0000 I know Brian Carruthers and believe that there is no circumstance in which he would even contemplate anything like the "hoax" that he is being accused of. He deserves, at least, to be asked about his photos before the ritual character assassination begins. bom Fitzpatrick, Dara wrote: > It should be straight forward. Does anyone know Brian Carruthers or > could give him a call? > In fairness it was sunny yesterday and there has been Cetti's seen at > this site before. > I prefer to think these pics are the results of a cracking days birding > (in Ireland) and not what could be a costly hoax for many. > Lee do you have examples of hoaxes on the 'mainland'? > > Dara > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of > Lee G R Evans > Sent: 08 March 2010 09:32 > To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE > Subject: Fantasy Birding > > Can anyone confirm whether there has been a Fan-tailed Warbler in > Ireland > or not as the sighting has been 'mega-alerted' in Britain on the > assorted > Information Services. Is it yet another example of internet fabrication, > > whereby photographs proclaiming birds to be taken at a certain location > were > actually taken many hundreds, if not thousands, of miles away. This is > an > increasing form of internet activity > > Please advise > > Best wishes > > Lee > > -- Barry O'Mahony Cork, IrelandSubject: Re: Zitting Cisticola at Kilcoole? From: Ronan McLaughlin <rpmclaughlin AT EIRCOM.NET> Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 19:49:24 -0000 Dublin, Sunrise at 06:57 in direction 97° East Sunset at 18:16 in direction 263° West Duration of day: 11 hours, 19 minutes (4 minutes, 14 seconds longer than yesterday) Sun in south at 12:36 at altitude Sun elevation 32° above horizon. Civil twilight begins at 06:22, ends at 18:51 Nautical twilight begins at 05:42, ends at 19:31 Astronomical twilight begins at 05:00, ends at 20:12 there is no way that photo was taken in Ireland, in Spain though the sun is 45 degrees above the horizon at midday! Ronan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Seamus Feeney"Subject: Re: Zitting Cisticola at Kilcoole? From: Seamus Feeney <Flyfisher1 AT EIRCOM.NET> Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 19:26:49 -0000 The shadow cast by the tail of the ZC would seem to indicate the sun being higher in the sky than would be expected at our latitude at this time of year. Yesterday the sun was a bit over 31 degrees above the horizon, it certainly appears to be higher in the ZC photos. Now I'll wait for somebody with an understanding of astronomy to tell me I'm talking balls. Séamus. -------------------------------------------------- From: "Noel Keogh"Subject: Re: Fantasy Birding From: Lee G R Evans <LGREUK400 AT AOL.COM> Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 13:03:06 EST Dara There has been a spate of internet birding fraud of late, including the well-publicised Welsh Steller's Eider incident, and that of an attempt to claim the highest London list last year (backed up by photographs taken of Ring-billed Gull at Southend, Leach's Petrel taken in Lancs, Gannet at Flamborough Head and Snow Bunting at Salthouse, amongst others). There is also the case of the Bay-breasted Warbler videoed, and later claimed to be filmed near Land's End in West Cornwall. By the way, whatever happened with that Dublin Christmas record of White-rumped Swift? Was that an elaborate hoax as well? Best wishes LeeSubject: Re: Fantasy Birding From: Eamonn <eamonn AT COLLIERKITCHENS.IE> Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 16:22:28 -0000 The website has been updated a few times today but the FTW is still there. This could cause heartache to somebody not on the IBN and thinks it's gen ! Bob -----Original Message----- From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of Eugene ARCHER Sent: 08 March 2010 16:15 To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE Subject: Re: Fantasy Birding Hi Andrew etc., I have no involvement with the website these days and didn't (don't) receive any e-mails with news etc. We're just going to have to wait until either Joe or Mr. Carruthers can shed some more light on the story. Best regards, Eugene Andrew Kelly wrote: > If the e-mail is genuine, ignore this. > > > > If it is a hoax, then: > > > > I presume that either Joe Doolan or Eugene Archer received an e-mail with this > report. (Not sure how their sightings page works). If this is the case, in the > header of the e-mail they received (or older e-mails) will be the source IP > (origin) of the e-mail. > > Even if the e-mail address is fake and has been created for this purpose, you > usually deduce some information from it. This header is normally not visible, > but can easily be viewed. > > > > It is possible to fake the IP source, but not without a bit of effort and > special software. > > It is also pretty easy to send it through an "anonymizer" which makes > it look like it came from another location. > > > > I had a similar problem in an organisation some years back, where someone > inside the organisation was deliberately trying to sabotaging work by posting > nasty information in our guestbook. > > Upon investigation, it was possible to identify the poster from the IP address > because they had sent an e-mail during the same session, not realising they > were incriminating themselves. > > > > Too much time spent on computers and watching CSI... > > > e-mails? > > > > >> Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 14:30:16 +0000 >> From: birds AT ECOVENEY.IE >> Subject: Re: Fantasy Birding >> To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE >> >> Hi all, >> >> Although skeptical about this report I did a quick trip to Kilcoole with HD >> and the only warbler seen was a chiffchaff. A few other birders were there >> since 7am and they saw nothing of note. The following may be useful in >> clarifying whether this is a mix-up or something worse. >> >> There is an insulated telephone wire at the north end of the car park at >> Kilcoole railway station that is similar to the wire in the shots. However, >> there were many more small marks in the shots I took of the wire in Kilcoole >> but I guess these this type of wire is very common. This was the only such >> wire we saw between Kilcoole Village and the railway station. If the >> warbler photos were taken at there, they would appear to have been taken >> from the car park itself unless the photographer waded into the stream or >> reedbed next to the car park. From the faint marks on the wire and the >> bird's shadow, the three ftw shots appear to have been taken at the same >> time and spot with the sun high and behind the photographer's right >> shoulder. Does this indicate that the sun was too high for Ireland in early >> March? The pronounced reflection on the wire of the Cetti's shot indicates a >> different angle of the sun and perhaps time of the day - if this shot was >> taken in the same place as the ftw shots. >> >> I understand that the photos were reported to have been taken near a house >> called Beachfield (Beechfield?) on the Sea Road at Kilcoole - we did some >> looking and asking for a house of this name but we could not find it. >> >> The shots on www.irishbirding.com are low resolution and have no exif >> (EXposure InFormation) data attached. It would obviously be interesting to >> see the original shots with this information, although not everyone has the >> date and time set on their camera, and to see other shots taken on the day. >> However, other shots on www.irishbirding.com also do not have exif data so >> it may be that the upload procedure strips this information off - >> clarification is needed here. >> >> I searched www.irishbirding.com for "carruthers" and this produced 18 hits, >> 16 for Brian in Cos. Wicklow Dublin & Cork since 19 Dec 2009, and two for >> Ken in Co. Donegal in April 2009 that I assume are not relevant here. 11 of >> Brian's entries have photos attached including a male Sparrowhawk with a >> dead Blue Tit in a private garden in Finglas West on 11 Jan last (neither of >> the Dublin Carruthers in the Eircom online phonebook are in this location, >> nor are they Brian). The birds concerned are mostly common but there also >> entries for two scarce species, Great Spotted Woodpecker and Little Egret. >> His entries of Whooper Swan and Merlin for Kilcolman on 2 Jan last also have >> the name Mike Hirst attached and his entry of a Yellowhammer of 10 Jan has >> the name Pauline Whelan attached. The photos prior to yesterday appear to be >> consistent with the locations mentioned >> >> Until we hear a lot more from Brian, I don't think Lee should be counting >> either of these for his B&I 2010 list! >> >> John C(louseau). >> >> "François: Do you know what kind of a bomb it was? >> Clouseau: Yes, the exploding kind." >> >> PS Could there be a Slovenian connection? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of >> Eamonn >> Sent: 08 March 2010 12:24 >> To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE >> Subject: Re: Fantasy Birding >> >> If it was an attempt at a hoax it was a poor one. Had all the shots been >> Fan-tailed there would be a lot of birders in Wicklow right now ! >> >> Bob >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of >> irishbirdnews >> Sent: 08 March 2010 12:21 >> To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE >> Subject: Re: Fantasy Birding >> >> What are the chances of someone thinking they've seen a Sedge Warbler in >> the >> first week of March, then taking a few shots of the bird, and it so >> happens >> that the bird on the wire is in fact two birds on the same wire... and >> that >> neither is a Sedge Warbler but one is a Fan-tailed and the other a >> Cetti's? >> If this is the case, then I would suggest that Brian Carruthers should >> go >> out and buy a lotto ticket asap. It is at best a big mistake whereby the >> >> wrong shots were somehow sent...at worst a major hoax. >> >> Eric (aka Doubting Thomas) >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Fitzpatrick, Dara"Subject: Re: Fantasy Birding From: Eugene ARCHER <wagtail AT FREE.FR> Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 17:15:20 +0100 Hi Andrew etc., I have no involvement with the website these days and didn't (don't) receive any e-mails with news etc. We're just going to have to wait until either Joe or Mr. Carruthers can shed some more light on the story. Best regards, Eugene Andrew Kelly wrote: > If the e-mail is genuine, ignore this. > > > > If it is a hoax, then: > > > > I presume that either Joe Doolan or Eugene Archer received an e-mail with this > report. (Not sure how their sightings page works). If this is the case, in the > header of the e-mail they received (or older e-mails) will be the source IP > (origin) of the e-mail. > > Even if the e-mail address is fake and has been created for this purpose, you > usually deduce some information from it. This header is normally not visible, > but can easily be viewed. > > > > It is possible to fake the IP source, but not without a bit of effort and > special software. > > It is also pretty easy to send it through an "anonymizer" which makes > it look like it came from another location. > > > > I had a similar problem in an organisation some years back, where someone > inside the organisation was deliberately trying to sabotaging work by posting > nasty information in our guestbook. > > Upon investigation, it was possible to identify the poster from the IP address > because they had sent an e-mail during the same session, not realising they > were incriminating themselves. > > > > Too much time spent on computers and watching CSI... > > > e-mails? > > > > >> Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 14:30:16 +0000 >> From: birds AT ECOVENEY.IE >> Subject: Re: Fantasy Birding >> To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE >> >> Hi all, >> >> Although skeptical about this report I did a quick trip to Kilcoole with HD >> and the only warbler seen was a chiffchaff. A few other birders were there >> since 7am and they saw nothing of note. The following may be useful in >> clarifying whether this is a mix-up or something worse. >> >> There is an insulated telephone wire at the north end of the car park at >> Kilcoole railway station that is similar to the wire in the shots. However, >> there were many more small marks in the shots I took of the wire in Kilcoole >> but I guess these this type of wire is very common. This was the only such >> wire we saw between Kilcoole Village and the railway station. If the >> warbler photos were taken at there, they would appear to have been taken >> from the car park itself unless the photographer waded into the stream or >> reedbed next to the car park. From the faint marks on the wire and the >> bird's shadow, the three ftw shots appear to have been taken at the same >> time and spot with the sun high and behind the photographer's right >> shoulder. Does this indicate that the sun was too high for Ireland in early >> March? The pronounced reflection on the wire of the Cetti's shot indicates a >> different angle of the sun and perhaps time of the day - if this shot was >> taken in the same place as the ftw shots. >> >> I understand that the photos were reported to have been taken near a house >> called Beachfield (Beechfield?) on the Sea Road at Kilcoole - we did some >> looking and asking for a house of this name but we could not find it. >> >> The shots on www.irishbirding.com are low resolution and have no exif >> (EXposure InFormation) data attached. It would obviously be interesting to >> see the original shots with this information, although not everyone has the >> date and time set on their camera, and to see other shots taken on the day. >> However, other shots on www.irishbirding.com also do not have exif data so >> it may be that the upload procedure strips this information off - >> clarification is needed here. >> >> I searched www.irishbirding.com for "carruthers" and this produced 18 hits, >> 16 for Brian in Cos. Wicklow Dublin & Cork since 19 Dec 2009, and two for >> Ken in Co. Donegal in April 2009 that I assume are not relevant here. 11 of >> Brian's entries have photos attached including a male Sparrowhawk with a >> dead Blue Tit in a private garden in Finglas West on 11 Jan last (neither of >> the Dublin Carruthers in the Eircom online phonebook are in this location, >> nor are they Brian). The birds concerned are mostly common but there also >> entries for two scarce species, Great Spotted Woodpecker and Little Egret. >> His entries of Whooper Swan and Merlin for Kilcolman on 2 Jan last also have >> the name Mike Hirst attached and his entry of a Yellowhammer of 10 Jan has >> the name Pauline Whelan attached. The photos prior to yesterday appear to be >> consistent with the locations mentioned >> >> Until we hear a lot more from Brian, I don't think Lee should be counting >> either of these for his B&I 2010 list! >> >> John C(louseau). >> >> "François: Do you know what kind of a bomb it was? >> Clouseau: Yes, the exploding kind." >> >> PS Could there be a Slovenian connection? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of >> Eamonn >> Sent: 08 March 2010 12:24 >> To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE >> Subject: Re: Fantasy Birding >> >> If it was an attempt at a hoax it was a poor one. Had all the shots been >> Fan-tailed there would be a lot of birders in Wicklow right now ! >> >> Bob >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of >> irishbirdnews >> Sent: 08 March 2010 12:21 >> To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE >> Subject: Re: Fantasy Birding >> >> What are the chances of someone thinking they've seen a Sedge Warbler in >> the >> first week of March, then taking a few shots of the bird, and it so >> happens >> that the bird on the wire is in fact two birds on the same wire... and >> that >> neither is a Sedge Warbler but one is a Fan-tailed and the other a >> Cetti's? >> If this is the case, then I would suggest that Brian Carruthers should >> go >> out and buy a lotto ticket asap. It is at best a big mistake whereby the >> >> wrong shots were somehow sent...at worst a major hoax. >> >> Eric (aka Doubting Thomas) >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Fitzpatrick, Dara" |