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Updated on Friday, November 20 at 06:13 PM ET
The most recently received Mail is at the top.
White-tailed Kite,©Barry Kent Mackay

20 Nov Re: Upland Sandpiper Bunduff. ["jhobbs AT iol.ie" ]
20 Nov Re: Upland Sandpiper Bunduff. [Mícheál Casey ]
20 Nov Re: Upland Sandpiper Bunduff. [Mike O'Keeffe ]
20 Nov Re: Upland Sandpiper Bunduff. [derek charles ]
20 Nov Upland Sandpiper Bunduff. [Seamus Feeney ]
20 Nov Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out [Mike O'Keeffe ]
20 Nov Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out [Martin Ryan ]
20 Nov Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out ["Casey, Micheal" ]
20 Nov Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out [Eamonn ]
20 Nov Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out [Tom Cuffe ]
20 Nov Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out []
20 Nov Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out [Derek Charles ]
20 Nov Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out [Mike O'Keeffe ]
20 Nov Northside Xmas bash ["Aidan G. Kelly" ]
19 Nov Collins Bird Guide - the eagerly-awaited 2nd Edition [SUBSCRIBE IBN-L Lee G R Evans ]
19 Nov Re: Devils Island RFB. [derek charles ]
19 Nov Canada/Cackling Goose Review - IRBC Request [Paul Milne ]
18 Nov Re: County Cork botany book [James ]
18 Nov Marine Turtles -RFI [irishbirdnews ]
18 Nov BINS [irishbirdnews ]
17 Nov 428 Species [SUBSCRIBE IBN-L Lee G R Evans ]
17 Nov Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out [Dermot McCabe ]
17 Nov Total Now stabilising at 427 [SUBSCRIBE IBN-L Lee G R Evans ]
17 Nov Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out [John Coveney Birds ]
17 Nov Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out [SUBSCRIBE IBN-L Lee G R Evans ]
17 Nov Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out ["Casey, Micheal" ]
17 Nov Re: 'Northern' Glaucous-winged Gulls [SUBSCRIBE IBN-L Lee G R Evans ]
17 Nov Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out [Peter Phillips ]
17 Nov Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out ["Casey, Micheal" ]
17 Nov Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out [Mike O'Keeffe ]
17 Nov Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out [Killian Mullarney ]
17 Nov Re: 'Northern' Glaucous-winged Gulls [Harry Hussey ]
17 Nov Re: Glaucous winged Gull [Richard Mills ]
17 Nov maybe [Eamonn ]
17 Nov Re: County Cork botany book [Tom Gittings ]
17 Nov Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out [Derek Charles ]
17 Nov Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out [Eamonn ]
17 Nov Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out [Derek Charles ]
17 Nov Re: County Cork botany book [bom ]
16 Nov Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out [Mike O'Keeffe ]
16 Nov Re: County Cork botany book [Tony Kavanagh ]
16 Nov Re: County Cork botany book [Richard Mills ]
16 Nov Re: County Cork botany book [Tony Kavanagh ]
16 Nov Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out [Peter Phillips ]
16 Nov 'Northern' Glaucous-winged Gulls [SUBSCRIBE IBN-L Lee G R Evans ]
16 Nov Re: Glaucous winged Gull [SUBSCRIBE IBN-L Lee G R Evans ]
16 Nov Re: Glaucous winged Gull [Harry Hussey ]
16 Nov Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out [richard mundy ]
16 Nov Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out [derek charles ]
16 Nov Re: Glaucous winged Gull [richard mundy ]
16 Nov Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out [richard mundy ]
16 Nov Re: Glaucous winged Gull [SUBSCRIBE IBN-L Lee G R Evans ]
16 Nov Re: Glaucous winged Gull [richard mundy ]
16 Nov Re: Glaucous winged Gull [Mícheál Casey ]
16 Nov Re: Glaucous winged Gull [Peter Phillips ]
16 Nov Re: Glaucous winged Gull [Eamonn ]
16 Nov Re: Glaucous winged Gull [Derek Charles ]
16 Nov Re: Glaucous winged Gull [Peter Phillips ]
16 Nov Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out [Mike O'Keeffe ]
16 Nov County Cork botany book [Richard Mills ]
16 Nov Re: Glaucous winged Gull [Eugene ARCHER ]
16 Nov Re: Glaucous winged Gull [derek charles ]
16 Nov Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out [derek charles ]
15 Nov Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out [Mícheál Casey ]
15 Nov Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out [Mike O'Keeffe ]
15 Nov Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out [Ronan McLaughlin ]
15 Nov Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out [Mike O'Keeffe ]
15 Nov Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out [Mícheál Casey ]
15 Nov Glaucous winged Gull [Edward Carty ]
14 Nov Bookmark this. [Seamus Feeney ]
14 Nov Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous-winged Gull Sligo [Mícheál Casey ]
14 Nov Re: Not pacific diver [Paul & Norma Moore ]
14 Nov POSSIBLE Glaucous-winged Gull Sligo [John Coveney Birds ]
14 Nov Re: 2nd hand scopes [Evan Salholm ]
14 Nov Not pacific diver [Mark Shorten ]
13 Nov Re: Dursey (or Devil's Island). [SUBSCRIBE IBN-L Lee G R Evans ]

Subject: Re: Upland Sandpiper Bunduff.
From: "jhobbs AT iol.ie" <jhobbs@IOL.IE>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 19:13:04 -0500
Hi Séamus
First of all let me say I can take no credit for wildlifesnaps.com which is
entirely down to the excellent work of Tom Shevlin. If anyone has not yet
checked it out I would highly recommend it.
Second, thanks for bringing this to my attention. The original reference is
in the Zoologist 1916, pg 194 (which I think was later incorporated in to
British Birds?).
I came across the record in Kennedy, P.G., Ruttledge, R.F. & Scroope, C.F.
1954. Birds of Ireland. Oliver & Boyd, Edinburgh, as follows (when
referring to records of Upland Plover [sic]):
"The third was shot in a field near the sea at Banduff, Co. Leitrim, in
November, probably 1901."
By the way I have a notion that the specimen ended up in the possession of
the Major but I'm not sure how correct that is? Maybe I am thinking of
something else. 
I am not familiar with Banduff so I wonder is it close to the border with
Leitrim or has there been a redrawing of the border since 1901? 
To date there have been just 11 records of this North American bird, the
most recent in 1995. I think many high listers in Ireland managed to tic
the bird on Dursey Island in September 1991 found by Rod Martins. 
cheers
joe
 

Original Message:
-----------------
From: Seamus Feeney Flyfisher1 AT EIRCOM.NET
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 19:21:43 -0000
To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
Subject: Upland Sandpiper Bunduff.


Don't panic, it's long gone.

I have just had a look at http://wildlifesnaps.com/oldie_details.php and 
noticed that the November 1901 record for Upland Sandpiper at Bunduff is 
recorded as Co. Leitrim.

Bunduff is in fact, in Co. Sligo.

Is this recorded historically as fact, or is this a more recent error?

Joe, can you shed any light on this?

Séamus.

Nice site by the way.




 



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Subject: Re: Upland Sandpiper Bunduff.
From: Mícheál Casey <michealjcasey AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 19:50:18 +0000
Don't mind them, Séamus, if you had put 1901 they would have thought it was the 
time 


Mícheál


On 20 Nov 2009, at 19:21, Seamus Feeney wrote:

> Don't panic, it's long gone.
> 
> I have just had a look at http://wildlifesnaps.com/oldie_details.php and 
noticed that the November 1901 record for Upland Sandpiper at Bunduff is 
recorded as Co. Leitrim. 

> 
> Bunduff is in fact, in Co. Sligo.
> 
> Is this recorded historically as fact, or is this a more recent error?
> 
> Joe, can you shed any light on this?
> 
> Séamus.
> 
> Nice site by the way.
> 
> 
> 
>
Subject: Re: Upland Sandpiper Bunduff.
From: Mike O'Keeffe <okeeffeml AT EIRCOM.NET>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 19:33:00 -0000
Likewise!!!


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "derek charles" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 7:24 PM
Subject: Re: Upland Sandpiper Bunduff.


Don't panic Seamus! I was nearly in the car!



derek

> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 19:21:43 +0000
> From: Flyfisher1 AT EIRCOM.NET
> Subject: Upland Sandpiper Bunduff.
> To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
>
> Don't panic, it's long gone.
>
> I have just had a look at http://wildlifesnaps.com/oldie_details.php and
> noticed that the November 1901 record for Upland Sandpiper at Bunduff is
> recorded as Co. Leitrim.
>
> Bunduff is in fact, in Co. Sligo.
>
> Is this recorded historically as fact, or is this a more recent error?
>
> Joe, can you shed any light on this?
>
> Séamus.
>
> Nice site by the way.
>
>
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Got more than one Hotmail account? Save time by linking them together
 http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/186394591/direct/01/
Subject: Re: Upland Sandpiper Bunduff.
From: derek charles <derek.charles AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 19:24:39 +0000
Don't panic Seamus! I was nearly in the car!

 

derek
 
> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 19:21:43 +0000
> From: Flyfisher1 AT EIRCOM.NET
> Subject: Upland Sandpiper Bunduff.
> To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
> 
> Don't panic, it's long gone.
> 
> I have just had a look at http://wildlifesnaps.com/oldie_details.php and 
> noticed that the November 1901 record for Upland Sandpiper at Bunduff is 
> recorded as Co. Leitrim.
> 
> Bunduff is in fact, in Co. Sligo.
> 
> Is this recorded historically as fact, or is this a more recent error?
> 
> Joe, can you shed any light on this?
> 
> Séamus.
> 
> Nice site by the way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Got more than one Hotmail account? Save time by linking them together
 http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/186394591/direct/01/
Subject: Upland Sandpiper Bunduff.
From: Seamus Feeney <Flyfisher1 AT EIRCOM.NET>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 19:21:43 -0000
Don't panic, it's long gone.

I have just had a look at http://wildlifesnaps.com/oldie_details.php and 
noticed that the November 1901 record for Upland Sandpiper at Bunduff is 
recorded as Co. Leitrim.

Bunduff is in fact, in Co. Sligo.

Is this recorded historically as fact, or is this a more recent error?

Joe, can you shed any light on this?

Séamus.

Nice site by the way.
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
From: Mike O'Keeffe <okeeffeml AT EIRCOM.NET>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 18:43:32 -0000
Hi,

Thanks everyone for the help and directions.  I had been trying AA Roadwatch 
but no luck.  Finally got through.
Looks like Galway is to be avoided.

Regards

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Casey, Micheal" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out


Hi Mike & all,

I went down to John's Port this morning at day break (8 am), and the bird 
was on the beach at John's Port (west of Lissadell) eating a Starfish 
(predictably).

I marked the locations used by the bird on a map I have sent to a couple of 
people - if you or anyone else who wants it sends an email to
mail AT sligobirding.com, I will email you a copy tonight when I get home.

The bird can be found anywhere along a mile or so of beach, but seems to 
follow a rough pattern to some degree.  At high tide, the gulls are usually 
concentrated in a short section of beach at John's Port, where they bathe in 
a stream flowing across the beach, which is about a mile west of Lissadell 
House, and as it drops the gulls tend to move up the estuary towards 
Lissadell, and tend to be more spread out.  At low tide, the bird has tended 
to feed along the tideline & in the channels in front of the walled garden 
("The Alpine Gardens") at Lissadell house, but could be anywhere from John's 
Port to the clam farm at the Goose Field , a distance close to two miles.

Access to this beach is fairly straightforward, apart from a section in the 
middle, which can be walked, but can't be accessed by road without 
trespassing on the Lissadell Estate.  The rest is totally accessible from 
public roads/Co. Council property.  The Lissadell Estate has locked vehicle 
barriers at its boundaries.

I had a quick look at lunch time and didn't see the bird, which fits with 
the pattern all week - I have seen it about 50% of the lunchtimes all week, 
with only a brief visit each time, I am sure I would have improved that hit 
rate if I had the time for a methodical search and a full scan of both ends 
of the area frequented.  If I was travelling I would aim to be at John's 
Port at high tide, which is at 8.20 am on Saturday, 9 am on Sunday.  Sorry 
about that!

Sligo has the usual quota of people who think birds on beaches are for 
exercising dogs, and for plonkers like that a thousand gull flock is 
irresistible, hopefully the crappy weather tomorrow will tempt them to sleep 
in till after brunch.

Also seen in the area today - one Iceland Gull at the Alpine Gardens, 
Cackling & Canada Goose with the Barnacles in the Goose Field, one Brambling 
in the Linnet Plot at the eastern end of the Goose Field.  If the two geese 
aren't in the goose field, check the potato field across the road.

I spoke with Allan Mee a while ago who is on the road from Kerry to Sligo 
and the road through Galway is passable, with some standing water, some 
queues and delays.

Mícheál

PS Nobody in Sligo is taking any responsibility if this bird doesn't show at 
the weekend, but we haven't chased it away or 'collected' it.  Yet.




-----Original Message-----
From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of 
Derek Charles
Sent: 20 November 2009 13:50
To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out

Hello Mike,
i emailed Seamus this morning directions for bird.
Not sure on roads, just what i seen on RTE news last night.

derek

________________________________

From: Irish Bird Network on behalf of Mike O'Keeffe
Sent: Fri 20/11/2009 13:50
To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out



Hi,

Does anyone know if this bird has been seen in the last day or two and if so
where?  Also are there any badly-flooded roads North on the route from
Limerick through Galway to Sligo that need bypassing?

Thanks in advance!

Regards

Mike


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dermot McCabe" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 5:37 PM
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out


Bastards!
Surely one of the most elegant acronyms to appear in print?
Dermot.


2009/11/17 John Coveney Birds :
> Kiliian,
>
> " If only we had a few more old-style dumps to look at..."
>
> You are obviously one of the bastards - birders against sewage treatment
> and
> rubbish dump sanitization - with its HQ in the eponymous (one for Peter
> here!) townland between Kilmore Quay and Tacumshin!
>
> John C
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of
> Killian Mullarney
> Sent: 17 November 2009 12:29
> To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
>
> "What's the chances Killian or Pat might share their thoughts here?"
>
> Of course Mike, but when it comes to making a determination as to the
> 'purity' or otherwise of a putative vagrant Glaucous-winged Gull, I simply
> do not have sufficient experience of the species and lookalike hybrids to
> offer any kind of authoritative opinion. It is over 25 years since I last
> saw Glaucous-wingeds in numbers and back then their identification was an
> even blacker art than it is now! So, all I can do is consult the more
> recent
>
> literature that deals with G-wG identification and guess at the identity
> of
> the Drumcliff Bay gull.
>
> It seems that almost every suspected out-of-range G-w G within North
> America
>
> that comes up for discussion on the excellent 'Identification Frontiers'
> list (http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html) attracts a range
> of critical opinion, including some birds that appear to have pretty good
> credentials. It is very difficult to see how we might ever gain a
> sufficiently good grasp of the hybrid problem to be able to identify with
> confidence (especially in a vagrant context) birds that do not conform
> very
> closely to the perceived 'ideal' appearance of G-w G. I suspect therefore
> that the combination of apparently anomalous features shown by the
> Drumcliff
>
> bird will ensure that there is a question-mark against its identity for
> quite some time to come.
>
> Even if we are never able to identify this individual with any certainty,
> its strong superficial resemblance to a G-w G, and the possibility that it
> is at least partly derived of that species is a stimulating reminder that
> we
>
> should expect to find a 'good' one (or a Slaty-backed Gull) any day now.
>
> If only we had a few more old-style dumps to look at...
>
> Regards,
>
> Killian
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Mike O'Keeffe" 
> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 11:25 PM
> To: 
> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Its great to see an open ID discussion on the IBN! Thanks Derek for
>> shedding more light on this bird and helping to clarify some of the
>> points
>> apparent from the photos. I think Lee's point about the differing
>> appearance between adults and juvenile/1st winters is interesting. I have
>> been thrawling through a great selection of GWG photos on the web and
>> that
>> very point occurred to me as I scanned the images. In particular I was
>> struck by how distinctly beady-eyed most adult birds look but many
>> immatures
>> look rather larger eyed and I wouldnt just put that down to perception of
>> the eye size against white or dark feathering. Could something like that
>> be
>> due to the quality and density of feathering on the heads of adult birds
>> compared to younger birds - sort of like the excessive folds of skin on
>> the
>> faces of some dog breeds that result in squinty eyes. Pure speculation.
>>
>> One feature that seems consistent in all the shots I have seen so far
>> however is that GWG is basically round headed while the head shape of the
>> Sligo bird as confirmed by Derek is not right and in fact in many shots
>> is
>> quite square looking, rather like Glaucous Gull.
>>
>> Mainly playing the odds I think this is most likely a Glaucous X Herring
>> hybrid. I find it hard to imagine such a uniform mid-toned set of
>> primaries
>> and tertials being created by any other cross with the exception of a
>> West
>> Coast mixed bag of tricks. What does it take to create a mid-toned
>> pigement
>> on a set of primaries? I am guessing there are basically two scenarios
>> but
>> I stand open to correction. Scenario one is that both parents have
>> roughly
>> the same mid-tone primaries to begin with so the young ends up with the
>> same
>> eg. pure GWG X GWG or GWG X Kumliens cross or perhaps at a stretch GWG X
>> Thayers cross. The other scenario is two birds from the opposite end of
>> the
>> spectrum ie. Glaucous X Herring or Iceland X Herring or some other
>> combination of white-winged and black-winged gull get it on and produce
>> something "in between" in tone.
>>
>> As far as I know the proven hydridising of Iceland Gull with another
>> species
>> is almost unheard of (even if Kumlien's may once have arisen from Iceland
>> hydridising with Thayer's as one theory suggests). So if the theory that
>> these mid-toned primaries arise from one of these two sources is correct
>> the
>> most likely parentage of this bird would surely have to be either pure
>> GWG
>
>> X
>> GWG or a Glaucous X Herring hybird. I favour the latter based on the
>> evidence presented so far that seems to rule out pure GWG. The other
>> possibility of course is that this bird is from the West Coast of the USA
>> and is genetically such as mixed bag as to make it pointless and
>> impossible
>> to guess at its parentage.
>>
>> What's the chances Killian or Pat might share their thoughts here?
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Peter Phillips" 
>> To: 
>> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 9:33 PM
>> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
>>
>>
>> In terms of structure, how is this for a match!
>> http://www.pbase.com/jpkln/image/40310381
>>
>> Eye placement.bill. tertail step and wing lenght all look very similar.
>>
>
>
>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.67/2506 - Release Date:
>> 11/16/09
>
>> 07:43:00
>>
>

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Tá an t-eolais san ríomhphost seo, agus in aon ceangláin leis, faoi 
phribhléid agus faoi rún agus le h-aghaigh an seolaí amháin. D'fhéadfadh 
ábhar an seoladh seo bheith faoi phribhléid profisiúnta nó dlíthiúil. Mura 
tusa an seolaí a bhí beartaithe leis an ríomhphost seo a fháil, tá cosc air, 
nó aon chuid de, a úsáid, a chóipeál, nó a scaoileadh.  Má tháinig sé chugat 
de bharr dearmad, téigh i dteagmháil leis an seoltóir agus scrios an t-ábhar 
ó do ríomhaire le do thoil.
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
From: Martin Ryan <martinpatrickryan AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:17:31 -0000
AA site is overloaded but comes through eventually. Latest Galway news ( at
2.50 p.m. update was:

GALWAY* . The N6 Galway/Dublin Rd is closed at Ballinasloe & Craughwell.
Traffic is diverted at Loughrea via the N66 and at Oranmore via the N18 to
Gort. However, there is a stop/go system on the N18 Galway/Limerick Rd at
Labane and flooding on Crowe St in Gort with diversions in place. . The
Galway/Monivea Rd (R339) is blocked at several spots between Carnmore Cross
and Monivea. . N17 Galway/Tuam Rd is blocked at Tuam, Claregalway and
Loughgeorge. . Most routes around Corofin are impassable as the River Corrib
burst its banks. . N59 Galway/Clifden Rd - flooding at Oranswell and
Knockranny. . N63 Galway/Roscommon Rd flooding between Newtown Cross and
Ballyglunin Cross - passable. . N84 Galway/Headford Rd between Corundulla
Cross and Clonboo - passable . The Loughrea/Athenry Rd (R349) is impassable.

. Travelling to Connemara from the east divert via Westport. Bus Eireann and
Irish Rail services have been cancelled. See Travel News for more info.  

regards

-----Original Message-----
From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of
Eamonn
Sent: 20 November 2009 15:09
To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out

There appears to be a problem with the AA site.

I guess if it is not flooded now it will be in the morning !!

BBBW

-----Original Message-----
From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of Tom
Cuffe
Sent: 20 November 2009 15:03
To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out

Mike

AA roadwatch have a good summary for flooded roads.

http://www.aaroadwatch.ie/

Tom


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike O'Keeffe" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 1:50 PM
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out


> Hi,
>
> Does anyone know if this bird has been seen in the last day or two and
if 
> so
> where?  Also are there any badly-flooded roads North on the route from
> Limerick through Galway to Sligo that need bypassing?
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Regards
>
> Mike
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>From: "Dermot McCabe" 
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 5:37 PM
> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
>
>
> Bastards!
> Surely one of the most elegant acronyms to appear in print?
> Dermot.
>
>
> 2009/11/17 John Coveney Birds :
>> Kiliian,
>>
>> " If only we had a few more old-style dumps to look at..."
>>
>> You are obviously one of the bastards - birders against sewage
treatment
>> and
>> rubbish dump sanitization - with its HQ in the eponymous (one for
Peter
>> here!) townland between Kilmore Quay and Tacumshin!
>>
>> John C
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf
Of
>> Killian Mullarney
>> Sent: 17 November 2009 12:29
>> To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
>> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
>>
>> "What's the chances Killian or Pat might share their thoughts here?"
>>
>> Of course Mike, but when it comes to making a determination as to the
>> 'purity' or otherwise of a putative vagrant Glaucous-winged Gull, I 
>> simply
>> do not have sufficient experience of the species and lookalike
hybrids to
>> offer any kind of authoritative opinion. It is over 25 years since I
last
>> saw Glaucous-wingeds in numbers and back then their identification
was an
>> even blacker art than it is now! So, all I can do is consult the more
>> recent
>>
>> literature that deals with G-wG identification and guess at the
identity
>> of
>> the Drumcliff Bay gull.
>>
>> It seems that almost every suspected out-of-range G-w G within North
>> America
>>
>> that comes up for discussion on the excellent 'Identification
Frontiers'
>> list (http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html) attracts a 
>> range
>> of critical opinion, including some birds that appear to have pretty
good
>> credentials. It is very difficult to see how we might ever gain a
>> sufficiently good grasp of the hybrid problem to be able to identify
with
>> confidence (especially in a vagrant context) birds that do not
conform
>> very
>> closely to the perceived 'ideal' appearance of G-w G. I suspect
therefore
>> that the combination of apparently anomalous features shown by the
>> Drumcliff
>>
>> bird will ensure that there is a question-mark against its identity
for
>> quite some time to come.
>>
>> Even if we are never able to identify this individual with any
certainty,
>> its strong superficial resemblance to a G-w G, and the possibility
that 
>> it
>> is at least partly derived of that species is a stimulating reminder
that
>> we
>>
>> should expect to find a 'good' one (or a Slaty-backed Gull) any day
now.
>>
>> If only we had a few more old-style dumps to look at...
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Killian
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Mike O'Keeffe" 
>> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 11:25 PM
>> To: 
>> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Its great to see an open ID discussion on the IBN! Thanks Derek for
>>> shedding more light on this bird and helping to clarify some of the
>>> points
>>> apparent from the photos. I think Lee's point about the differing
>>> appearance between adults and juvenile/1st winters is interesting. I

>>> have
>>> been thrawling through a great selection of GWG photos on the web
and
>>> that
>>> very point occurred to me as I scanned the images. In particular I
was
>>> struck by how distinctly beady-eyed most adult birds look but many
>>> immatures
>>> look rather larger eyed and I wouldnt just put that down to
perception 
>>> of
>>> the eye size against white or dark feathering. Could something like
that
>>> be
>>> due to the quality and density of feathering on the heads of adult
birds
>>> compared to younger birds - sort of like the excessive folds of skin
on
>>> the
>>> faces of some dog breeds that result in squinty eyes. Pure
speculation.
>>>
>>> One feature that seems consistent in all the shots I have seen so
far
>>> however is that GWG is basically round headed while the head shape
of 
>>> the
>>> Sligo bird as confirmed by Derek is not right and in fact in many
shots
>>> is
>>> quite square looking, rather like Glaucous Gull.
>>>
>>> Mainly playing the odds I think this is most likely a Glaucous X
Herring
>>> hybrid. I find it hard to imagine such a uniform mid-toned set of
>>> primaries
>>> and tertials being created by any other cross with the exception of
a
>>> West
>>> Coast mixed bag of tricks. What does it take to create a mid-toned
>>> pigement
>>> on a set of primaries? I am guessing there are basically two
scenarios
>>> but
>>> I stand open to correction. Scenario one is that both parents have
>>> roughly
>>> the same mid-tone primaries to begin with so the young ends up with
the
>>> same
>>> eg. pure GWG X GWG or GWG X Kumliens cross or perhaps at a stretch
GWG X
>>> Thayers cross. The other scenario is two birds from the opposite end
of
>>> the
>>> spectrum ie. Glaucous X Herring or Iceland X Herring or some other
>>> combination of white-winged and black-winged gull get it on and
produce
>>> something "in between" in tone.
>>>
>>> As far as I know the proven hydridising of Iceland Gull with another
>>> species
>>> is almost unheard of (even if Kumlien's may once have arisen from 
>>> Iceland
>>> hydridising with Thayer's as one theory suggests). So if the theory
that
>>> these mid-toned primaries arise from one of these two sources is
correct
>>> the
>>> most likely parentage of this bird would surely have to be either
pure
>>> GWG
>>
>>> X
>>> GWG or a Glaucous X Herring hybird. I favour the latter based on the
>>> evidence presented so far that seems to rule out pure GWG. The other
>>> possibility of course is that this bird is from the West Coast of
the 
>>> USA
>>> and is genetically such as mixed bag as to make it pointless and
>>> impossible
>>> to guess at its parentage.
>>>
>>> What's the chances Killian or Pat might share their thoughts here?
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Peter Phillips" 
>>> To: 
>>> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 9:33 PM
>>> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
>>>
>>>
>>> In terms of structure, how is this for a match!
>>> http://www.pbase.com/jpkln/image/40310381
>>>
>>> Eye placement.bill. tertail step and wing lenght all look very
similar.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>> Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.67/2506 - Release Date:
>>> 11/16/09
>>
>>> 07:43:00
>>>
>>
>


------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.73/2514 - Release Date:
11/19/09 
19:42:00
############################################################################
#########
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by MailMarshal
############################################################################
#########
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
From: "Casey, Micheal" <Micheal.Casey AT AGRICULTURE.GOV.IE>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:15:45 +0000
Hi Mike & all,

I went down to John's Port this morning at day break (8 am), and the bird was 
on the beach at John's Port (west of Lissadell) eating a Starfish 
(predictably). 


I marked the locations used by the bird on a map I have sent to a couple of 
people - if you or anyone else who wants it sends an email to 

mail AT sligobirding.com, I will email you a copy tonight when I get home.

The bird can be found anywhere along a mile or so of beach, but seems to follow 
a rough pattern to some degree. At high tide, the gulls are usually 
concentrated in a short section of beach at John's Port, where they bathe in a 
stream flowing across the beach, which is about a mile west of Lissadell House, 
and as it drops the gulls tend to move up the estuary towards Lissadell, and 
tend to be more spread out. At low tide, the bird has tended to feed along the 
tideline & in the channels in front of the walled garden ("The Alpine Gardens") 
at Lissadell house, but could be anywhere from John's Port to the clam farm at 
the Goose Field , a distance close to two miles. 


Access to this beach is fairly straightforward, apart from a section in the 
middle, which can be walked, but can't be accessed by road without trespassing 
on the Lissadell Estate. The rest is totally accessible from public roads/Co. 
Council property. The Lissadell Estate has locked vehicle barriers at its 
boundaries. 


I had a quick look at lunch time and didn't see the bird, which fits with the 
pattern all week - I have seen it about 50% of the lunchtimes all week, with 
only a brief visit each time, I am sure I would have improved that hit rate if 
I had the time for a methodical search and a full scan of both ends of the area 
frequented. If I was travelling I would aim to be at John's Port at high tide, 
which is at 8.20 am on Saturday, 9 am on Sunday. Sorry about that! 


Sligo has the usual quota of people who think birds on beaches are for 
exercising dogs, and for plonkers like that a thousand gull flock is 
irresistible, hopefully the crappy weather tomorrow will tempt them to sleep in 
till after brunch. 


Also seen in the area today - one Iceland Gull at the Alpine Gardens, Cackling 
& Canada Goose with the Barnacles in the Goose Field, one Brambling in the 
Linnet Plot at the eastern end of the Goose Field. If the two geese aren't in 
the goose field, check the potato field across the road. 


I spoke with Allan Mee a while ago who is on the road from Kerry to Sligo and 
the road through Galway is passable, with some standing water, some queues and 
delays. 


Mícheál

PS Nobody in Sligo is taking any responsibility if this bird doesn't show at 
the weekend, but we haven't chased it away or 'collected' it. Yet. 





-----Original Message-----
From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of Derek 
Charles 

Sent: 20 November 2009 13:50
To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out

Hello Mike,
i emailed Seamus this morning directions for bird.
Not sure on roads, just what i seen on RTE news last night.

derek

________________________________

From: Irish Bird Network on behalf of Mike O'Keeffe
Sent: Fri 20/11/2009 13:50
To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out



Hi,

Does anyone know if this bird has been seen in the last day or two and if so
where?  Also are there any badly-flooded roads North on the route from
Limerick through Galway to Sligo that need bypassing?

Thanks in advance!

Regards

Mike


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dermot McCabe" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 5:37 PM
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out


Bastards!
Surely one of the most elegant acronyms to appear in print?
Dermot.


2009/11/17 John Coveney Birds :
> Kiliian,
>
> " If only we had a few more old-style dumps to look at..."
>
> You are obviously one of the bastards - birders against sewage treatment
> and
> rubbish dump sanitization - with its HQ in the eponymous (one for Peter
> here!) townland between Kilmore Quay and Tacumshin!
>
> John C
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of
> Killian Mullarney
> Sent: 17 November 2009 12:29
> To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
>
> "What's the chances Killian or Pat might share their thoughts here?"
>
> Of course Mike, but when it comes to making a determination as to the
> 'purity' or otherwise of a putative vagrant Glaucous-winged Gull, I simply
> do not have sufficient experience of the species and lookalike hybrids to
> offer any kind of authoritative opinion. It is over 25 years since I last
> saw Glaucous-wingeds in numbers and back then their identification was an
> even blacker art than it is now! So, all I can do is consult the more
> recent
>
> literature that deals with G-wG identification and guess at the identity
> of
> the Drumcliff Bay gull.
>
> It seems that almost every suspected out-of-range G-w G within North
> America
>
> that comes up for discussion on the excellent 'Identification Frontiers'
> list (http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html) attracts a range
> of critical opinion, including some birds that appear to have pretty good
> credentials. It is very difficult to see how we might ever gain a
> sufficiently good grasp of the hybrid problem to be able to identify with
> confidence (especially in a vagrant context) birds that do not conform
> very
> closely to the perceived 'ideal' appearance of G-w G. I suspect therefore
> that the combination of apparently anomalous features shown by the
> Drumcliff
>
> bird will ensure that there is a question-mark against its identity for
> quite some time to come.
>
> Even if we are never able to identify this individual with any certainty,
> its strong superficial resemblance to a G-w G, and the possibility that it
> is at least partly derived of that species is a stimulating reminder that
> we
>
> should expect to find a 'good' one (or a Slaty-backed Gull) any day now.
>
> If only we had a few more old-style dumps to look at...
>
> Regards,
>
> Killian
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Mike O'Keeffe" 
> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 11:25 PM
> To: 
> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Its great to see an open ID discussion on the IBN! Thanks Derek for
>> shedding more light on this bird and helping to clarify some of the
>> points
>> apparent from the photos. I think Lee's point about the differing
>> appearance between adults and juvenile/1st winters is interesting. I have
>> been thrawling through a great selection of GWG photos on the web and
>> that
>> very point occurred to me as I scanned the images. In particular I was
>> struck by how distinctly beady-eyed most adult birds look but many
>> immatures
>> look rather larger eyed and I wouldnt just put that down to perception of
>> the eye size against white or dark feathering. Could something like that
>> be
>> due to the quality and density of feathering on the heads of adult birds
>> compared to younger birds - sort of like the excessive folds of skin on
>> the
>> faces of some dog breeds that result in squinty eyes. Pure speculation.
>>
>> One feature that seems consistent in all the shots I have seen so far
>> however is that GWG is basically round headed while the head shape of the
>> Sligo bird as confirmed by Derek is not right and in fact in many shots
>> is
>> quite square looking, rather like Glaucous Gull.
>>
>> Mainly playing the odds I think this is most likely a Glaucous X Herring
>> hybrid. I find it hard to imagine such a uniform mid-toned set of
>> primaries
>> and tertials being created by any other cross with the exception of a
>> West
>> Coast mixed bag of tricks. What does it take to create a mid-toned
>> pigement
>> on a set of primaries? I am guessing there are basically two scenarios
>> but
>> I stand open to correction. Scenario one is that both parents have
>> roughly
>> the same mid-tone primaries to begin with so the young ends up with the
>> same
>> eg. pure GWG X GWG or GWG X Kumliens cross or perhaps at a stretch GWG X
>> Thayers cross. The other scenario is two birds from the opposite end of
>> the
>> spectrum ie. Glaucous X Herring or Iceland X Herring or some other
>> combination of white-winged and black-winged gull get it on and produce
>> something "in between" in tone.
>>
>> As far as I know the proven hydridising of Iceland Gull with another
>> species
>> is almost unheard of (even if Kumlien's may once have arisen from Iceland
>> hydridising with Thayer's as one theory suggests). So if the theory that
>> these mid-toned primaries arise from one of these two sources is correct
>> the
>> most likely parentage of this bird would surely have to be either pure
>> GWG
>
>> X
>> GWG or a Glaucous X Herring hybird. I favour the latter based on the
>> evidence presented so far that seems to rule out pure GWG. The other
>> possibility of course is that this bird is from the West Coast of the USA
>> and is genetically such as mixed bag as to make it pointless and
>> impossible
>> to guess at its parentage.
>>
>> What's the chances Killian or Pat might share their thoughts here?
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Peter Phillips" 
>> To: 
>> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 9:33 PM
>> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
>>
>>
>> In terms of structure, how is this for a match!
>> http://www.pbase.com/jpkln/image/40310381
>>
>> Eye placement.bill. tertail step and wing lenght all look very similar.
>>
>
>
>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.67/2506 - Release Date:
>> 11/16/09
>
>> 07:43:00
>>
>

Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food

The information contained in this email and in any attachments is confidential 
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use, disclose, copy, distribute or retain this message or any part of it. If 
you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately and 
delete all copies of this email from your computer system(s). 


An Roinn Talmhaíochta, Iascaigh agus Bia

Tá an t-eolais san ríomhphost seo, agus in aon ceangláin leis, faoi phribhléid 
agus faoi rún agus le h-aghaigh an seolaí amháin. D'fhéadfadh ábhar an seoladh 
seo bheith faoi phribhléid profisiúnta nó dlíthiúil. Mura tusa an seolaí a bhí 
beartaithe leis an ríomhphost seo a fháil, tá cosc air, nó aon chuid de, a 
úsáid, a chóipeál, nó a scaoileadh. Má tháinig sé chugat de bharr dearmad, 
téigh i dteagmháil leis an seoltóir agus scrios an t-ábhar ó do ríomhaire le do 
thoil.
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
From: Eamonn <eamonn AT COLLIERKITCHENS.IE>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:08:48 -0000
There appears to be a problem with the AA site.

I guess if it is not flooded now it will be in the morning !!

BBBW

-----Original Message-----
From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of
Tom Cuffe
Sent: 20 November 2009 15:03
To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out

Mike

AA roadwatch have a good summary for flooded roads.

http://www.aaroadwatch.ie/

Tom


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike O'Keeffe" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 1:50 PM
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out


> Hi,
>
> Does anyone know if this bird has been seen in the last day or two and
if 
> so
> where?  Also are there any badly-flooded roads North on the route from
> Limerick through Galway to Sligo that need bypassing?
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Regards
>
> Mike
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>From: "Dermot McCabe" 
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 5:37 PM
> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
>
>
> Bastards!
> Surely one of the most elegant acronyms to appear in print?
> Dermot.
>
>
> 2009/11/17 John Coveney Birds :
>> Kiliian,
>>
>> " If only we had a few more old-style dumps to look at..."
>>
>> You are obviously one of the bastards - birders against sewage
treatment
>> and
>> rubbish dump sanitization - with its HQ in the eponymous (one for
Peter
>> here!) townland between Kilmore Quay and Tacumshin!
>>
>> John C
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf
Of
>> Killian Mullarney
>> Sent: 17 November 2009 12:29
>> To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
>> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
>>
>> "What's the chances Killian or Pat might share their thoughts here?"
>>
>> Of course Mike, but when it comes to making a determination as to the
>> 'purity' or otherwise of a putative vagrant Glaucous-winged Gull, I 
>> simply
>> do not have sufficient experience of the species and lookalike
hybrids to
>> offer any kind of authoritative opinion. It is over 25 years since I
last
>> saw Glaucous-wingeds in numbers and back then their identification
was an
>> even blacker art than it is now! So, all I can do is consult the more
>> recent
>>
>> literature that deals with G-wG identification and guess at the
identity
>> of
>> the Drumcliff Bay gull.
>>
>> It seems that almost every suspected out-of-range G-w G within North
>> America
>>
>> that comes up for discussion on the excellent 'Identification
Frontiers'
>> list (http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html) attracts a 
>> range
>> of critical opinion, including some birds that appear to have pretty
good
>> credentials. It is very difficult to see how we might ever gain a
>> sufficiently good grasp of the hybrid problem to be able to identify
with
>> confidence (especially in a vagrant context) birds that do not
conform
>> very
>> closely to the perceived 'ideal' appearance of G-w G. I suspect
therefore
>> that the combination of apparently anomalous features shown by the
>> Drumcliff
>>
>> bird will ensure that there is a question-mark against its identity
for
>> quite some time to come.
>>
>> Even if we are never able to identify this individual with any
certainty,
>> its strong superficial resemblance to a G-w G, and the possibility
that 
>> it
>> is at least partly derived of that species is a stimulating reminder
that
>> we
>>
>> should expect to find a 'good' one (or a Slaty-backed Gull) any day
now.
>>
>> If only we had a few more old-style dumps to look at...
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Killian
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Mike O'Keeffe" 
>> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 11:25 PM
>> To: 
>> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Its great to see an open ID discussion on the IBN! Thanks Derek for
>>> shedding more light on this bird and helping to clarify some of the
>>> points
>>> apparent from the photos. I think Lee's point about the differing
>>> appearance between adults and juvenile/1st winters is interesting. I

>>> have
>>> been thrawling through a great selection of GWG photos on the web
and
>>> that
>>> very point occurred to me as I scanned the images. In particular I
was
>>> struck by how distinctly beady-eyed most adult birds look but many
>>> immatures
>>> look rather larger eyed and I wouldnt just put that down to
perception 
>>> of
>>> the eye size against white or dark feathering. Could something like
that
>>> be
>>> due to the quality and density of feathering on the heads of adult
birds
>>> compared to younger birds - sort of like the excessive folds of skin
on
>>> the
>>> faces of some dog breeds that result in squinty eyes. Pure
speculation.
>>>
>>> One feature that seems consistent in all the shots I have seen so
far
>>> however is that GWG is basically round headed while the head shape
of 
>>> the
>>> Sligo bird as confirmed by Derek is not right and in fact in many
shots
>>> is
>>> quite square looking, rather like Glaucous Gull.
>>>
>>> Mainly playing the odds I think this is most likely a Glaucous X
Herring
>>> hybrid. I find it hard to imagine such a uniform mid-toned set of
>>> primaries
>>> and tertials being created by any other cross with the exception of
a
>>> West
>>> Coast mixed bag of tricks. What does it take to create a mid-toned
>>> pigement
>>> on a set of primaries? I am guessing there are basically two
scenarios
>>> but
>>> I stand open to correction. Scenario one is that both parents have
>>> roughly
>>> the same mid-tone primaries to begin with so the young ends up with
the
>>> same
>>> eg. pure GWG X GWG or GWG X Kumliens cross or perhaps at a stretch
GWG X
>>> Thayers cross. The other scenario is two birds from the opposite end
of
>>> the
>>> spectrum ie. Glaucous X Herring or Iceland X Herring or some other
>>> combination of white-winged and black-winged gull get it on and
produce
>>> something "in between" in tone.
>>>
>>> As far as I know the proven hydridising of Iceland Gull with another
>>> species
>>> is almost unheard of (even if Kumlien's may once have arisen from 
>>> Iceland
>>> hydridising with Thayer's as one theory suggests). So if the theory
that
>>> these mid-toned primaries arise from one of these two sources is
correct
>>> the
>>> most likely parentage of this bird would surely have to be either
pure
>>> GWG
>>
>>> X
>>> GWG or a Glaucous X Herring hybird. I favour the latter based on the
>>> evidence presented so far that seems to rule out pure GWG. The other
>>> possibility of course is that this bird is from the West Coast of
the 
>>> USA
>>> and is genetically such as mixed bag as to make it pointless and
>>> impossible
>>> to guess at its parentage.
>>>
>>> What's the chances Killian or Pat might share their thoughts here?
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Peter Phillips" 
>>> To: 
>>> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 9:33 PM
>>> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
>>>
>>>
>>> In terms of structure, how is this for a match!
>>> http://www.pbase.com/jpkln/image/40310381
>>>
>>> Eye placement.bill. tertail step and wing lenght all look very
similar.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>> Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.67/2506 - Release Date:
>>> 11/16/09
>>
>>> 07:43:00
>>>
>>
>


------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.73/2514 - Release Date:
11/19/09 
19:42:00

##################################################################################### 

This e-mail message has been scanned for Viruses and Content and cleared 
by MailMarshal

#####################################################################################
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
From: Tom Cuffe <tblcuffe AT IOL.IE>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:03:05 -0000
Mike

AA roadwatch have a good summary for flooded roads.

http://www.aaroadwatch.ie/

Tom


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike O'Keeffe" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 1:50 PM
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out


> Hi,
>
> Does anyone know if this bird has been seen in the last day or two and if 
> so
> where?  Also are there any badly-flooded roads North on the route from
> Limerick through Galway to Sligo that need bypassing?
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Regards
>
> Mike
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>From: "Dermot McCabe" 
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 5:37 PM
> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
>
>
> Bastards!
> Surely one of the most elegant acronyms to appear in print?
> Dermot.
>
>
> 2009/11/17 John Coveney Birds :
>> Kiliian,
>>
>> " If only we had a few more old-style dumps to look at..."
>>
>> You are obviously one of the bastards - birders against sewage treatment
>> and
>> rubbish dump sanitization - with its HQ in the eponymous (one for Peter
>> here!) townland between Kilmore Quay and Tacumshin!
>>
>> John C
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of
>> Killian Mullarney
>> Sent: 17 November 2009 12:29
>> To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
>> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
>>
>> "What's the chances Killian or Pat might share their thoughts here?"
>>
>> Of course Mike, but when it comes to making a determination as to the
>> 'purity' or otherwise of a putative vagrant Glaucous-winged Gull, I 
>> simply
>> do not have sufficient experience of the species and lookalike hybrids to
>> offer any kind of authoritative opinion. It is over 25 years since I last
>> saw Glaucous-wingeds in numbers and back then their identification was an
>> even blacker art than it is now! So, all I can do is consult the more
>> recent
>>
>> literature that deals with G-wG identification and guess at the identity
>> of
>> the Drumcliff Bay gull.
>>
>> It seems that almost every suspected out-of-range G-w G within North
>> America
>>
>> that comes up for discussion on the excellent 'Identification Frontiers'
>> list (http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html) attracts a 
>> range
>> of critical opinion, including some birds that appear to have pretty good
>> credentials. It is very difficult to see how we might ever gain a
>> sufficiently good grasp of the hybrid problem to be able to identify with
>> confidence (especially in a vagrant context) birds that do not conform
>> very
>> closely to the perceived 'ideal' appearance of G-w G. I suspect therefore
>> that the combination of apparently anomalous features shown by the
>> Drumcliff
>>
>> bird will ensure that there is a question-mark against its identity for
>> quite some time to come.
>>
>> Even if we are never able to identify this individual with any certainty,
>> its strong superficial resemblance to a G-w G, and the possibility that 
>> it
>> is at least partly derived of that species is a stimulating reminder that
>> we
>>
>> should expect to find a 'good' one (or a Slaty-backed Gull) any day now.
>>
>> If only we had a few more old-style dumps to look at...
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Killian
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Mike O'Keeffe" 
>> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 11:25 PM
>> To: 
>> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Its great to see an open ID discussion on the IBN! Thanks Derek for
>>> shedding more light on this bird and helping to clarify some of the
>>> points
>>> apparent from the photos. I think Lee's point about the differing
>>> appearance between adults and juvenile/1st winters is interesting. I 
>>> have
>>> been thrawling through a great selection of GWG photos on the web and
>>> that
>>> very point occurred to me as I scanned the images. In particular I was
>>> struck by how distinctly beady-eyed most adult birds look but many
>>> immatures
>>> look rather larger eyed and I wouldnt just put that down to perception 
>>> of
>>> the eye size against white or dark feathering. Could something like that
>>> be
>>> due to the quality and density of feathering on the heads of adult birds
>>> compared to younger birds - sort of like the excessive folds of skin on
>>> the
>>> faces of some dog breeds that result in squinty eyes. Pure speculation.
>>>
>>> One feature that seems consistent in all the shots I have seen so far
>>> however is that GWG is basically round headed while the head shape of 
>>> the
>>> Sligo bird as confirmed by Derek is not right and in fact in many shots
>>> is
>>> quite square looking, rather like Glaucous Gull.
>>>
>>> Mainly playing the odds I think this is most likely a Glaucous X Herring
>>> hybrid. I find it hard to imagine such a uniform mid-toned set of
>>> primaries
>>> and tertials being created by any other cross with the exception of a
>>> West
>>> Coast mixed bag of tricks. What does it take to create a mid-toned
>>> pigement
>>> on a set of primaries? I am guessing there are basically two scenarios
>>> but
>>> I stand open to correction. Scenario one is that both parents have
>>> roughly
>>> the same mid-tone primaries to begin with so the young ends up with the
>>> same
>>> eg. pure GWG X GWG or GWG X Kumliens cross or perhaps at a stretch GWG X
>>> Thayers cross. The other scenario is two birds from the opposite end of
>>> the
>>> spectrum ie. Glaucous X Herring or Iceland X Herring or some other
>>> combination of white-winged and black-winged gull get it on and produce
>>> something "in between" in tone.
>>>
>>> As far as I know the proven hydridising of Iceland Gull with another
>>> species
>>> is almost unheard of (even if Kumlien's may once have arisen from 
>>> Iceland
>>> hydridising with Thayer's as one theory suggests). So if the theory that
>>> these mid-toned primaries arise from one of these two sources is correct
>>> the
>>> most likely parentage of this bird would surely have to be either pure
>>> GWG
>>
>>> X
>>> GWG or a Glaucous X Herring hybird. I favour the latter based on the
>>> evidence presented so far that seems to rule out pure GWG. The other
>>> possibility of course is that this bird is from the West Coast of the 
>>> USA
>>> and is genetically such as mixed bag as to make it pointless and
>>> impossible
>>> to guess at its parentage.
>>>
>>> What's the chances Killian or Pat might share their thoughts here?
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Peter Phillips" 
>>> To: 
>>> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 9:33 PM
>>> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
>>>
>>>
>>> In terms of structure, how is this for a match!
>>> http://www.pbase.com/jpkln/image/40310381
>>>
>>> Eye placement.bill. tertail step and wing lenght all look very similar.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>> Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.67/2506 - Release Date:
>>> 11/16/09
>>
>>> 07:43:00
>>>
>>
>



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 




No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.73/2514 - Release Date: 11/19/09 
19:42:00
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
From: colin.mcnamee AT PRINTPOST.IE
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:11:07 -0000
It was there yesterday morning on the beach below the walled garden at
Lisadell. 

Regards
Colin

-----Original Message-----
From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of
Derek Charles
Sent: 20 November 2009 13:50
To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out

Hello Mike,
i emailed Seamus this morning directions for bird.
Not sure on roads, just what i seen on RTE news last night.
 
derek

________________________________

From: Irish Bird Network on behalf of Mike O'Keeffe
Sent: Fri 20/11/2009 13:50
To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out



Hi,

Does anyone know if this bird has been seen in the last day or two and if so
where?  Also are there any badly-flooded roads North on the route from
Limerick through Galway to Sligo that need bypassing?

Thanks in advance!

Regards

Mike


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dermot McCabe" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 5:37 PM
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out


Bastards!
Surely one of the most elegant acronyms to appear in print?
Dermot.


2009/11/17 John Coveney Birds :
> Kiliian,
>
> " If only we had a few more old-style dumps to look at..."
>
> You are obviously one of the bastards - birders against sewage treatment
> and
> rubbish dump sanitization - with its HQ in the eponymous (one for Peter
> here!) townland between Kilmore Quay and Tacumshin!
>
> John C
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of
> Killian Mullarney
> Sent: 17 November 2009 12:29
> To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
>
> "What's the chances Killian or Pat might share their thoughts here?"
>
> Of course Mike, but when it comes to making a determination as to the
> 'purity' or otherwise of a putative vagrant Glaucous-winged Gull, I simply
> do not have sufficient experience of the species and lookalike hybrids to
> offer any kind of authoritative opinion. It is over 25 years since I last
> saw Glaucous-wingeds in numbers and back then their identification was an
> even blacker art than it is now! So, all I can do is consult the more
> recent
>
> literature that deals with G-wG identification and guess at the identity
> of
> the Drumcliff Bay gull.
>
> It seems that almost every suspected out-of-range G-w G within North
> America
>
> that comes up for discussion on the excellent 'Identification Frontiers'
> list (http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html) attracts a range
> of critical opinion, including some birds that appear to have pretty good
> credentials. It is very difficult to see how we might ever gain a
> sufficiently good grasp of the hybrid problem to be able to identify with
> confidence (especially in a vagrant context) birds that do not conform
> very
> closely to the perceived 'ideal' appearance of G-w G. I suspect therefore
> that the combination of apparently anomalous features shown by the
> Drumcliff
>
> bird will ensure that there is a question-mark against its identity for
> quite some time to come.
>
> Even if we are never able to identify this individual with any certainty,
> its strong superficial resemblance to a G-w G, and the possibility that it
> is at least partly derived of that species is a stimulating reminder that
> we
>
> should expect to find a 'good' one (or a Slaty-backed Gull) any day now.
>
> If only we had a few more old-style dumps to look at...
>
> Regards,
>
> Killian
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Mike O'Keeffe" 
> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 11:25 PM
> To: 
> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Its great to see an open ID discussion on the IBN! Thanks Derek for
>> shedding more light on this bird and helping to clarify some of the
>> points
>> apparent from the photos. I think Lee's point about the differing
>> appearance between adults and juvenile/1st winters is interesting. I have
>> been thrawling through a great selection of GWG photos on the web and
>> that
>> very point occurred to me as I scanned the images. In particular I was
>> struck by how distinctly beady-eyed most adult birds look but many
>> immatures
>> look rather larger eyed and I wouldnt just put that down to perception of
>> the eye size against white or dark feathering. Could something like that
>> be
>> due to the quality and density of feathering on the heads of adult birds
>> compared to younger birds - sort of like the excessive folds of skin on
>> the
>> faces of some dog breeds that result in squinty eyes. Pure speculation.
>>
>> One feature that seems consistent in all the shots I have seen so far
>> however is that GWG is basically round headed while the head shape of the
>> Sligo bird as confirmed by Derek is not right and in fact in many shots
>> is
>> quite square looking, rather like Glaucous Gull.
>>
>> Mainly playing the odds I think this is most likely a Glaucous X Herring
>> hybrid. I find it hard to imagine such a uniform mid-toned set of
>> primaries
>> and tertials being created by any other cross with the exception of a
>> West
>> Coast mixed bag of tricks. What does it take to create a mid-toned
>> pigement
>> on a set of primaries? I am guessing there are basically two scenarios
>> but
>> I stand open to correction. Scenario one is that both parents have
>> roughly
>> the same mid-tone primaries to begin with so the young ends up with the
>> same
>> eg. pure GWG X GWG or GWG X Kumliens cross or perhaps at a stretch GWG X
>> Thayers cross. The other scenario is two birds from the opposite end of
>> the
>> spectrum ie. Glaucous X Herring or Iceland X Herring or some other
>> combination of white-winged and black-winged gull get it on and produce
>> something "in between" in tone.
>>
>> As far as I know the proven hydridising of Iceland Gull with another
>> species
>> is almost unheard of (even if Kumlien's may once have arisen from Iceland
>> hydridising with Thayer's as one theory suggests). So if the theory that
>> these mid-toned primaries arise from one of these two sources is correct
>> the
>> most likely parentage of this bird would surely have to be either pure
>> GWG
>
>> X
>> GWG or a Glaucous X Herring hybird. I favour the latter based on the
>> evidence presented so far that seems to rule out pure GWG. The other
>> possibility of course is that this bird is from the West Coast of the USA
>> and is genetically such as mixed bag as to make it pointless and
>> impossible
>> to guess at its parentage.
>>
>> What's the chances Killian or Pat might share their thoughts here?
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Peter Phillips" 
>> To: 
>> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 9:33 PM
>> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
>>
>>
>> In terms of structure, how is this for a match!
>> http://www.pbase.com/jpkln/image/40310381
>>
>> Eye placement.bill. tertail step and wing lenght all look very similar.
>>
>
>
>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.67/2506 - Release Date:
>> 11/16/09
>
>> 07:43:00
>>
>
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
From: Derek Charles <Derek AT METSTEEL.CO.UK>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:50:26 -0000
Hello Mike,
i emailed Seamus this morning directions for bird.
Not sure on roads, just what i seen on RTE news last night.
 
derek

________________________________

From: Irish Bird Network on behalf of Mike O'Keeffe
Sent: Fri 20/11/2009 13:50
To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out



Hi,

Does anyone know if this bird has been seen in the last day or two and if so
where?  Also are there any badly-flooded roads North on the route from
Limerick through Galway to Sligo that need bypassing?

Thanks in advance!

Regards

Mike


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dermot McCabe" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 5:37 PM
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out


Bastards!
Surely one of the most elegant acronyms to appear in print?
Dermot.


2009/11/17 John Coveney Birds :
> Kiliian,
>
> " If only we had a few more old-style dumps to look at..."
>
> You are obviously one of the bastards - birders against sewage treatment
> and
> rubbish dump sanitization - with its HQ in the eponymous (one for Peter
> here!) townland between Kilmore Quay and Tacumshin!
>
> John C
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of
> Killian Mullarney
> Sent: 17 November 2009 12:29
> To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
>
> "What's the chances Killian or Pat might share their thoughts here?"
>
> Of course Mike, but when it comes to making a determination as to the
> 'purity' or otherwise of a putative vagrant Glaucous-winged Gull, I simply
> do not have sufficient experience of the species and lookalike hybrids to
> offer any kind of authoritative opinion. It is over 25 years since I last
> saw Glaucous-wingeds in numbers and back then their identification was an
> even blacker art than it is now! So, all I can do is consult the more
> recent
>
> literature that deals with G-wG identification and guess at the identity
> of
> the Drumcliff Bay gull.
>
> It seems that almost every suspected out-of-range G-w G within North
> America
>
> that comes up for discussion on the excellent 'Identification Frontiers'
> list (http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html) attracts a range
> of critical opinion, including some birds that appear to have pretty good
> credentials. It is very difficult to see how we might ever gain a
> sufficiently good grasp of the hybrid problem to be able to identify with
> confidence (especially in a vagrant context) birds that do not conform
> very
> closely to the perceived 'ideal' appearance of G-w G. I suspect therefore
> that the combination of apparently anomalous features shown by the
> Drumcliff
>
> bird will ensure that there is a question-mark against its identity for
> quite some time to come.
>
> Even if we are never able to identify this individual with any certainty,
> its strong superficial resemblance to a G-w G, and the possibility that it
> is at least partly derived of that species is a stimulating reminder that
> we
>
> should expect to find a 'good' one (or a Slaty-backed Gull) any day now.
>
> If only we had a few more old-style dumps to look at...
>
> Regards,
>
> Killian
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Mike O'Keeffe" 
> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 11:25 PM
> To: 
> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Its great to see an open ID discussion on the IBN! Thanks Derek for
>> shedding more light on this bird and helping to clarify some of the
>> points
>> apparent from the photos. I think Lee's point about the differing
>> appearance between adults and juvenile/1st winters is interesting. I have
>> been thrawling through a great selection of GWG photos on the web and
>> that
>> very point occurred to me as I scanned the images. In particular I was
>> struck by how distinctly beady-eyed most adult birds look but many
>> immatures
>> look rather larger eyed and I wouldnt just put that down to perception of
>> the eye size against white or dark feathering. Could something like that
>> be
>> due to the quality and density of feathering on the heads of adult birds
>> compared to younger birds - sort of like the excessive folds of skin on
>> the
>> faces of some dog breeds that result in squinty eyes. Pure speculation.
>>
>> One feature that seems consistent in all the shots I have seen so far
>> however is that GWG is basically round headed while the head shape of the
>> Sligo bird as confirmed by Derek is not right and in fact in many shots
>> is
>> quite square looking, rather like Glaucous Gull.
>>
>> Mainly playing the odds I think this is most likely a Glaucous X Herring
>> hybrid. I find it hard to imagine such a uniform mid-toned set of
>> primaries
>> and tertials being created by any other cross with the exception of a
>> West
>> Coast mixed bag of tricks. What does it take to create a mid-toned
>> pigement
>> on a set of primaries? I am guessing there are basically two scenarios
>> but
>> I stand open to correction. Scenario one is that both parents have
>> roughly
>> the same mid-tone primaries to begin with so the young ends up with the
>> same
>> eg. pure GWG X GWG or GWG X Kumliens cross or perhaps at a stretch GWG X
>> Thayers cross. The other scenario is two birds from the opposite end of
>> the
>> spectrum ie. Glaucous X Herring or Iceland X Herring or some other
>> combination of white-winged and black-winged gull get it on and produce
>> something "in between" in tone.
>>
>> As far as I know the proven hydridising of Iceland Gull with another
>> species
>> is almost unheard of (even if Kumlien's may once have arisen from Iceland
>> hydridising with Thayer's as one theory suggests). So if the theory that
>> these mid-toned primaries arise from one of these two sources is correct
>> the
>> most likely parentage of this bird would surely have to be either pure
>> GWG
>
>> X
>> GWG or a Glaucous X Herring hybird. I favour the latter based on the
>> evidence presented so far that seems to rule out pure GWG. The other
>> possibility of course is that this bird is from the West Coast of the USA
>> and is genetically such as mixed bag as to make it pointless and
>> impossible
>> to guess at its parentage.
>>
>> What's the chances Killian or Pat might share their thoughts here?
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Peter Phillips" 
>> To: 
>> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 9:33 PM
>> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
>>
>>
>> In terms of structure, how is this for a match!
>> http://www.pbase.com/jpkln/image/40310381
>>
>> Eye placement.bill. tertail step and wing lenght all look very similar.
>>
>
>
>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.67/2506 - Release Date:
>> 11/16/09
>
>> 07:43:00
>>
>
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
From: Mike O'Keeffe <okeeffeml AT EIRCOM.NET>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:50:54 -0000
Hi,

Does anyone know if this bird has been seen in the last day or two and if so 
where?  Also are there any badly-flooded roads North on the route from 
Limerick through Galway to Sligo that need bypassing?

Thanks in advance!

Regards

Mike


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dermot McCabe" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 5:37 PM
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out


Bastards!
Surely one of the most elegant acronyms to appear in print?
Dermot.


2009/11/17 John Coveney Birds :
> Kiliian,
>
> " If only we had a few more old-style dumps to look at..."
>
> You are obviously one of the bastards - birders against sewage treatment 
> and
> rubbish dump sanitization - with its HQ in the eponymous (one for Peter
> here!) townland between Kilmore Quay and Tacumshin!
>
> John C
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of
> Killian Mullarney
> Sent: 17 November 2009 12:29
> To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
>
> "What's the chances Killian or Pat might share their thoughts here?"
>
> Of course Mike, but when it comes to making a determination as to the
> 'purity' or otherwise of a putative vagrant Glaucous-winged Gull, I simply
> do not have sufficient experience of the species and lookalike hybrids to
> offer any kind of authoritative opinion. It is over 25 years since I last
> saw Glaucous-wingeds in numbers and back then their identification was an
> even blacker art than it is now! So, all I can do is consult the more 
> recent
>
> literature that deals with G-wG identification and guess at the identity 
> of
> the Drumcliff Bay gull.
>
> It seems that almost every suspected out-of-range G-w G within North 
> America
>
> that comes up for discussion on the excellent 'Identification Frontiers'
> list (http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html) attracts a range
> of critical opinion, including some birds that appear to have pretty good
> credentials. It is very difficult to see how we might ever gain a
> sufficiently good grasp of the hybrid problem to be able to identify with
> confidence (especially in a vagrant context) birds that do not conform 
> very
> closely to the perceived 'ideal' appearance of G-w G. I suspect therefore
> that the combination of apparently anomalous features shown by the 
> Drumcliff
>
> bird will ensure that there is a question-mark against its identity for
> quite some time to come.
>
> Even if we are never able to identify this individual with any certainty,
> its strong superficial resemblance to a G-w G, and the possibility that it
> is at least partly derived of that species is a stimulating reminder that 
> we
>
> should expect to find a 'good' one (or a Slaty-backed Gull) any day now.
>
> If only we had a few more old-style dumps to look at...
>
> Regards,
>
> Killian
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Mike O'Keeffe" 
> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 11:25 PM
> To: 
> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Its great to see an open ID discussion on the IBN! Thanks Derek for
>> shedding more light on this bird and helping to clarify some of the 
>> points
>> apparent from the photos. I think Lee's point about the differing
>> appearance between adults and juvenile/1st winters is interesting. I have
>> been thrawling through a great selection of GWG photos on the web and 
>> that
>> very point occurred to me as I scanned the images. In particular I was
>> struck by how distinctly beady-eyed most adult birds look but many
>> immatures
>> look rather larger eyed and I wouldnt just put that down to perception of
>> the eye size against white or dark feathering. Could something like that
>> be
>> due to the quality and density of feathering on the heads of adult birds
>> compared to younger birds - sort of like the excessive folds of skin on
>> the
>> faces of some dog breeds that result in squinty eyes. Pure speculation.
>>
>> One feature that seems consistent in all the shots I have seen so far
>> however is that GWG is basically round headed while the head shape of the
>> Sligo bird as confirmed by Derek is not right and in fact in many shots 
>> is
>> quite square looking, rather like Glaucous Gull.
>>
>> Mainly playing the odds I think this is most likely a Glaucous X Herring
>> hybrid. I find it hard to imagine such a uniform mid-toned set of
>> primaries
>> and tertials being created by any other cross with the exception of a 
>> West
>> Coast mixed bag of tricks. What does it take to create a mid-toned
>> pigement
>> on a set of primaries? I am guessing there are basically two scenarios
>> but
>> I stand open to correction. Scenario one is that both parents have
>> roughly
>> the same mid-tone primaries to begin with so the young ends up with the
>> same
>> eg. pure GWG X GWG or GWG X Kumliens cross or perhaps at a stretch GWG X
>> Thayers cross. The other scenario is two birds from the opposite end of
>> the
>> spectrum ie. Glaucous X Herring or Iceland X Herring or some other
>> combination of white-winged and black-winged gull get it on and produce
>> something "in between" in tone.
>>
>> As far as I know the proven hydridising of Iceland Gull with another
>> species
>> is almost unheard of (even if Kumlien's may once have arisen from Iceland
>> hydridising with Thayer's as one theory suggests). So if the theory that
>> these mid-toned primaries arise from one of these two sources is correct
>> the
>> most likely parentage of this bird would surely have to be either pure 
>> GWG
>
>> X
>> GWG or a Glaucous X Herring hybird. I favour the latter based on the
>> evidence presented so far that seems to rule out pure GWG. The other
>> possibility of course is that this bird is from the West Coast of the USA
>> and is genetically such as mixed bag as to make it pointless and
>> impossible
>> to guess at its parentage.
>>
>> What's the chances Killian or Pat might share their thoughts here?
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Peter Phillips" 
>> To: 
>> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 9:33 PM
>> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
>>
>>
>> In terms of structure, how is this for a match!
>> http://www.pbase.com/jpkln/image/40310381
>>
>> Eye placement.bill. tertail step and wing lenght all look very similar.
>>
>
>
>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.67/2506 - Release Date: 
>> 11/16/09
>
>> 07:43:00
>>
>
Subject: Northside Xmas bash
From: "Aidan G. Kelly" <agkelly AT MAIL.TCD.IE>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 10:35:19 +0000
Forwarding from Sean Farrell, who's not on the IBN:


The birders Northside bash will take place on Friday 11th December 
from 9pm onwards in the Addison Lodge in Glasnevin. All are welcome, 
even if you didn't have a tick this year. Former twitchers also very 
welcome, as are people from Cork!  We will have a good night of 
banter, sort out next year's foreign trips and discuss 2009 as a good 
year of rarities.

Atb

Sean

Sean Farrell
PostPoint Technical Services Manager

PostPoint
3rd Floor
West Pier Business Campus
Old Dun Laoghaire Rd
Dun Laoghaire

PCI eCommerce Solutions:
Tel: +353 1 705 8260
Mob: +353 87 668 4730
Fax: +353 1 705 7292
Email: sean.farrell AT anpost.ie
Web: <>www.pci.ie

A member of the An Post Group

-- 
**********************************************
Aidan G Kelly                               
Department of Physiology,                               
Trinity College,                            
Dublin 2                                    
Ireland.                                   
                                             
tel: +353 1 8961351                          
fax: +353 1 6793545                          
e-mail: agkelly AT tcd.ie
                      
**********************************************
Subject: Collins Bird Guide - the eagerly-awaited 2nd Edition
From: SUBSCRIBE IBN-L Lee G R Evans <LGREUK400 AT AOL.COM>
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 19:33:42 EST
See 

_http://www.whsmith.co.uk/CatalogAndSearch/ProductDetails-Collins+Bird+Guide+-9780007267262.html_ 


(http://www.whsmith.co.uk/CatalogAndSearch/ProductDetails-Collins+Bird+Guide+-9780007267262.html) 

 
Special offers already on this book before it is even out - £16.25 - saving 
 almost 10 Euros or pounds
 
Killian, is it really already published - I was under the impression it  
wouldn't be available until February/March of next year. Great to have it  
available before Christmas though
 
Kind regards
 
Lee
Subject: Re: Devils Island RFB.
From: derek charles <derek.charles AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 18:11:03 +0000
from Birdforum


I've been in contact with Ari Rajasärkkä from Finland, who has a keen interest 
in Bluetails, in particular the Irish bird as it could constitute the first 
ever ringing recovery of a Bluetail (if we could get to the bottom of the ring 
number). Here's a copy of Ari's email: 


"Hi! I know at the moment 13 individuals of Red-Flanked Bluetails which have 
been ringed this autumn in Europe outside Britain. On the list below I have 
marked with + or - the possibility of being the same bird as in Ireland. 5 
birds surely CANNOT be the Irish bird. There are still 8 more candidates and 
there might be also possible other ringed birds which I don't yet know. 

The list is here: 
- Sweden, Haparanda Sandskär bird station: 2 ringed indivuals (7.9. and 
11.9.2009), ring numbers do not include 12 (or even 71 which could perhaps be 
read as 12 if it is upside down) 

+ Sweden, Stora Fjäderegg bird station: 2 ringed individuals (25.9. and 
1.10.2009), I don't know any more information of these two birds + Finland, 
Joensuu, Höytiäinen bird station, 11.9.2009, the ringer (name Ari Latja) 
promised to check the ring number, it has been ringed to the right leg, no 
pictures in the internet 

- Germany, Helgoland bird station, 29.9.2009, ringed on the left leg + Faroe 
Islands, Nolsoy, 6.10.2009, I don't know any other details 

- Faroe Islands, Sumba, 6.10.2009, ringed on the left leg Norway, Rogaland, 
Reve, 10.10.2009, picture: 
http://www.feltornitologene.no/galle...de.htm?iid=935, I don't know any other 
details 

-? Norway, Rogaland, Utsira bird station, 15.10.2009, bird with "no tail", hard 
to believe, that this kind of a bird could fly hundreds of kilometers over the 
sea, pictures: http://www.feltornitologene.no/galle...de.htm?iid=946 and 
http://www.artsobservasjoner.no/Fugl...?obsid=6247058 + Norway, Rogaland, 
Utsira bird station, 18.-19.10.2009, I don't know any other details about this 
ringed individual 

+ Denmark, Hanstholm 20.10.2009, two pictures: 
http://www.netfugl.dk/dklist.php?id=...species_id=596, I don't know anything 
more - Lithuania, Neringa, 23.10.2009, ringed on the left leg 


In addition there are some at least seen birds which I don't now for sure if 
they have been ringed or just seen and/or photographed. The dutch bird you 
mentioned belongs to that group in my files. Are you sure it was ringed? These 
other birds are: Belgium, Haag van Heist, 2 individulas, probably not ringed 
Germany, Helgoland bird station, 18.10.-3.11. bird was photographed many many 
times in that period but I think it never got a ring to its leg France, 
Bretagne, two birds (9.-12.10. and 16.10.2009), this is all I know about these 
birds. I have not even seen any pictures of them. Sweden, Baltic islands 
Gotland and Öland, two birds (13.10. and 16.-17.10.2009), these birds probably 
were not ringed Then in Finland some birds were ringed in summer on their 
territories but these were adult or 2nd calendar year males which look quite 
different than the Irish bird.However if any young or female-plumaged birds 
were ringed this summer in Finland I will inform you. 

Then is still the one minor possibility that someone has ringed Bluetails in 
Russia. That might be very difficult to clear up. But I can ask that from the 
people who know ssome Russian ornithologists. Let's see if I can help a bit in 
resolving the origin of the first Irish Red-flanked Bluetail. You may share out 
my message to anybody who is interested about this problem. 

And if you know the email-adresses of the original photographers of the Irish 
bird I would be happy to get them. It would be nice to see better resolution 
pictures of that famous ring. Mayby I can get some more clues by looking the 
ring a bit closer. 

With best regards Ari Rajasärkkä

So, does anyone have contact details of the photographer of the Irish bird, so 
Ari could perhaps get hold of high res images? Ari's email address to pass on 
to the photographer if possible is ari.rajasarkka 'at' metsa.fi 

And does anyone know details of the ringed bird in the Netherlands?

It'll be superb detective work if anything can be proven about the ring.
__________________
Please visit the Durham Bird Club website.  		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Use Hotmail to send and receive mail from your different email accounts
http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/186394592/direct/01/
Subject: Canada/Cackling Goose Review - IRBC Request
From: Paul Milne <pjmilne AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 08:28:38 +0000
  




IRBC Request


The IRBC is commencing a review of all accepted "small" Canada Goose records 
while at the same time assessing all recent Cacking Goose claims. 



Given the complexity of Cacking and Canada Goose taxonomy and the ongoing 
search for definitive identification criteria we will need robust submissions, 
ideally consisting of photographs AND detailed field observations in order to 
substantiate all records both new and old. Photos alone may not be enough - we 
will require field observations to back up impressions of a bird's size, shape 
and plumage colour and pattern. Similarly, field descriptions lacking 
sufficient detail, and not backed up by good photos or field sketches will be 
hard to substantiate. If you can provide any photos or detailed field notes to 
help with this review we would love to hear from you. Please send your 
submissions either via email to goosereview AT irbc.ie or via post to Kieran Fahy, 
IRBC Secretary, "Silveracre", Yoletown, Tacumshin, Co.Wexford, Ireland. 


Thank you for your help!

IRBC Secretary

  		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Windows 7: Simplify what you do everyday. Find the right PC for you.
http://windows.microsoft.com/shop
Subject: Re: County Cork botany book
From: James <jimrippey AT TISCALI.CO.UK>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 20:53:26 -0000
Unfortunately when you click on the link at the moment, it says "Out of Stock"!

IAN RIPPEY 18.11.2009 

-----Original Message-----
From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of Richard 
Mills 

Sent: 16 November 2009 22:20
To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
Subject: Re: County Cork botany book

That's the one.

Some price difference!

Richard.

At 21:52 16/11/2009, you wrote:
>Hi Richard,
>
>any relation to this
>http://www.bestsellers.ie/book-details.php?bookID=340928 at only 20.99
>
>regards
>
>Tony
>
>On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 9:31 AM, Richard Mills  wrote:
>
> > For those who enjoy combining their birding with other aspects of 
> > nature, there is a superb new book just out:
> > The wildlfowers of Cork City and County, by Tony O'Mahony, published 
> > by the Collins Press at €29.99
> >
> > Richard.
> >
Subject: Marine Turtles -RFI
From: irishbirdnews <irishbirdnews AT EIRCOM.NET>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:31:25 -0000
Hello,  We maintain the UK and Ireland database for Sightings and Strandings 
of marine sea turtles - TURTLE.     This project is supported by the four 
Government Agencies and can be accessed through the NBN Gateway.

In the past,  Irish bird watchers have played a significant part in 
volunteering information on sightings of turtles, especially Leatherback 
turtles as they pass Cape Clear each year.

We do not seem to have any information in recent years although turtles have 
been around in Irish waters .  I wonder if it is possible for you to put me 
in touch with one of your regular watchers in that area as i am interested 
to know if turtles are not being seen at this location or are just not being 
reported to the database for whatever reason.


Many thanks.  Lin.


Lin Gander
UK and Republic of Ireland  TURTLE database administrator
Marine Environmental Monitoring
www.strandings.com/
lingander AT strandings.demon.co.uk
Tel: 01239 682405
Subject: BINS
From: irishbirdnews <irishbirdnews AT EIRCOM.NET>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:33:22 -0000
Hi all
just a quick email to say that I am now back after a flying visit to South 
Africa.  I would like to thank Paul Kelly for taking on the task of 
maintaining the BINS line at very notice. From today on, any news can be 
texted to me on 087 907 5669 or called to 01-8307364.

Regards
Eric
Subject: 428 Species
From: SUBSCRIBE IBN-L Lee G R Evans <LGREUK400 AT AOL.COM>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 13:04:23 EST
It has been very kindly pointed out to me that there has already been an  
ISABELLINE SHRIKE this year - a bird on Achill Island in County Mayo on 4  
October. Initially identified as a Red-backed Shrike but re-identified from  
images
 
Many thanks
 
LGRE
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
From: Dermot McCabe <dermot.mccabe AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 17:37:06 +0000
Bastards!
Surely one of the most elegant acronyms to appear in print?
Dermot.


2009/11/17 John Coveney Birds :
> Kiliian,
>
> " If only we had a few more old-style dumps to look at..."
>
> You are obviously one of the bastards - birders against sewage treatment and
> rubbish dump sanitization - with its HQ in the eponymous (one for Peter
> here!) townland between Kilmore Quay and Tacumshin!
>
> John C
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of
> Killian Mullarney
> Sent: 17 November 2009 12:29
> To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
>
> "What's the chances Killian or Pat might share their thoughts here?"
>
> Of course Mike, but when it comes to making a determination as to the
> 'purity' or otherwise of a putative vagrant Glaucous-winged Gull, I simply
> do not have sufficient experience of the species and lookalike hybrids to
> offer any kind of authoritative opinion. It is over 25 years since I last
> saw Glaucous-wingeds in numbers and back then their identification was an
> even blacker art than it is now! So, all I can do is consult the more recent
>
> literature that deals with G-wG identification and guess at the identity of
> the Drumcliff Bay gull.
>
> It seems that almost every suspected out-of-range G-w G within North America
>
> that comes up for discussion on the excellent 'Identification Frontiers'
> list  (http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html) attracts a range
> of critical opinion, including some birds that appear to have pretty good
> credentials. It is very difficult to see how we might ever gain a
> sufficiently good grasp of the hybrid problem to be able to identify with
> confidence (especially in a vagrant context) birds that do not conform very
> closely to the perceived 'ideal' appearance of G-w G. I suspect therefore
> that the combination of apparently anomalous features shown by the Drumcliff
>
> bird will ensure that there is a question-mark against its identity for
> quite some time to come.
>
> Even if we are never able to identify this individual with any certainty,
> its strong superficial resemblance to a G-w G, and the possibility that it
> is at least partly derived of that species is a stimulating reminder that we
>
> should expect to find a 'good' one (or a Slaty-backed Gull) any day now.
>
> If only we had a few more old-style dumps to look at...
>
> Regards,
>
> Killian
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Mike O'Keeffe" 
> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 11:25 PM
> To: 
> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Its great to see an open ID discussion on the IBN!  Thanks Derek for
>> shedding more light on this bird and helping to clarify some of the points
>> apparent from the photos.  I think Lee's point about the differing
>> appearance between adults and juvenile/1st winters is interesting.  I have
>> been thrawling through a great selection of GWG photos on the web and that
>> very point occurred to me as I scanned the images.  In particular I was
>> struck by how distinctly beady-eyed most adult birds look but many
>> immatures
>> look rather larger eyed and I wouldnt just put that down to perception of
>> the eye size against white or dark feathering.  Could something like that
>> be
>> due to the quality and density of feathering on the heads of adult birds
>> compared to younger birds - sort of like the excessive folds of skin on
>> the
>> faces of some dog breeds that result in squinty eyes.  Pure speculation.
>>
>> One feature that seems consistent in all the shots I have seen so far
>> however is that GWG is basically round headed while the head shape of the
>> Sligo bird as confirmed by Derek is not right and in fact in many shots is
>> quite square looking, rather like Glaucous Gull.
>>
>> Mainly playing the odds I think this is most likely a Glaucous X Herring
>> hybrid.  I find it hard to imagine such a uniform mid-toned set of
>> primaries
>> and tertials being created by any other cross with the exception of a West
>> Coast mixed bag of tricks.  What does it take to create a mid-toned
>> pigement
>> on a set of primaries?  I am guessing there are basically two scenarios
>> but
>> I stand open to correction.  Scenario one is that both parents have
>> roughly
>> the same mid-tone primaries to begin with so the young ends up with the
>> same
>> eg. pure GWG X GWG or GWG X Kumliens cross or perhaps at a stretch GWG X
>> Thayers cross.  The other scenario is two birds from the opposite end of
>> the
>> spectrum ie. Glaucous X Herring or Iceland X Herring or some other
>> combination of white-winged and black-winged gull get it on and produce
>> something "in between" in tone.
>>
>> As far as I know the proven hydridising of Iceland Gull with another
>> species
>> is almost unheard of (even if Kumlien's may once have arisen from Iceland
>> hydridising with Thayer's as one theory suggests).  So if the theory that
>> these mid-toned primaries arise from one of these two sources is correct
>> the
>> most likely parentage of this bird would surely have to be either pure GWG
>
>> X
>> GWG or a Glaucous X Herring hybird.  I favour the latter based on the
>> evidence presented so far that seems to rule out pure GWG.  The other
>> possibility of course is that this bird is from the West Coast of the USA
>> and is genetically such as mixed bag as to make it pointless and
>> impossible
>> to guess at its parentage.
>>
>> What's the chances Killian or Pat might share their thoughts here?
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Peter Phillips" 
>> To: 
>> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 9:33 PM
>> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
>>
>>
>> In terms of structure, how is this for a match!
>> http://www.pbase.com/jpkln/image/40310381
>>
>> Eye placement.bill. tertail step and wing lenght all look very similar.
>>
>
>
>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.67/2506 - Release Date: 11/16/09
>
>> 07:43:00
>>
>
Subject: Total Now stabilising at 427
From: SUBSCRIBE IBN-L Lee G R Evans <LGREUK400 AT AOL.COM>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 12:24:37 EST
As the year is now coming to a close, the total number of species now  
recorded in Britain and Ireland (combined) has petered out at 427, some 20 less 

than last year's record total of 447 species.
 
The additional species since my last update included the EASTERN CROWNED  
WARBLER in South Tyneside, the UPLAND SANDPIPER in Caithness and the AMERICAN 
 MOURNING DOVE and SWAINSON'S THRUSH in Ireland.
 
We are still missing both ISABELLINE SHRIKE and DESERT WHEATEAR in 2009  
(both still feasible) as well as BRUNNICH'S GUILLEMOT and ROSS'S GULL. There 
are  also a few wildfowl possibilities
 
Best wishes
 
Lee Evans
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
From: John Coveney Birds <birds AT ECOVENEY.IE>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 17:02:02 -0000
Kiliian, 

" If only we had a few more old-style dumps to look at..."

You are obviously one of the bastards - birders against sewage treatment and
rubbish dump sanitization - with its HQ in the eponymous (one for Peter
here!) townland between Kilmore Quay and Tacumshin!

John C

-----Original Message-----
From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of
Killian Mullarney
Sent: 17 November 2009 12:29
To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out

"What's the chances Killian or Pat might share their thoughts here?"

Of course Mike, but when it comes to making a determination as to the 
'purity' or otherwise of a putative vagrant Glaucous-winged Gull, I simply 
do not have sufficient experience of the species and lookalike hybrids to 
offer any kind of authoritative opinion. It is over 25 years since I last 
saw Glaucous-wingeds in numbers and back then their identification was an 
even blacker art than it is now! So, all I can do is consult the more recent

literature that deals with G-wG identification and guess at the identity of 
the Drumcliff Bay gull.

It seems that almost every suspected out-of-range G-w G within North America

that comes up for discussion on the excellent 'Identification Frontiers' 
list  (http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html) attracts a range 
of critical opinion, including some birds that appear to have pretty good 
credentials. It is very difficult to see how we might ever gain a 
sufficiently good grasp of the hybrid problem to be able to identify with 
confidence (especially in a vagrant context) birds that do not conform very 
closely to the perceived 'ideal' appearance of G-w G. I suspect therefore 
that the combination of apparently anomalous features shown by the Drumcliff

bird will ensure that there is a question-mark against its identity for 
quite some time to come.

Even if we are never able to identify this individual with any certainty, 
its strong superficial resemblance to a G-w G, and the possibility that it 
is at least partly derived of that species is a stimulating reminder that we

should expect to find a 'good' one (or a Slaty-backed Gull) any day now.

If only we had a few more old-style dumps to look at...

Regards,

Killian


--------------------------------------------------
From: "Mike O'Keeffe" 
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 11:25 PM
To: 
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out

> Hi,
>
> Its great to see an open ID discussion on the IBN!  Thanks Derek for
> shedding more light on this bird and helping to clarify some of the points
> apparent from the photos.  I think Lee's point about the differing
> appearance between adults and juvenile/1st winters is interesting.  I have
> been thrawling through a great selection of GWG photos on the web and that
> very point occurred to me as I scanned the images.  In particular I was
> struck by how distinctly beady-eyed most adult birds look but many 
> immatures
> look rather larger eyed and I wouldnt just put that down to perception of
> the eye size against white or dark feathering.  Could something like that 
> be
> due to the quality and density of feathering on the heads of adult birds
> compared to younger birds - sort of like the excessive folds of skin on 
> the
> faces of some dog breeds that result in squinty eyes.  Pure speculation.
>
> One feature that seems consistent in all the shots I have seen so far
> however is that GWG is basically round headed while the head shape of the
> Sligo bird as confirmed by Derek is not right and in fact in many shots is
> quite square looking, rather like Glaucous Gull.
>
> Mainly playing the odds I think this is most likely a Glaucous X Herring
> hybrid.  I find it hard to imagine such a uniform mid-toned set of 
> primaries
> and tertials being created by any other cross with the exception of a West
> Coast mixed bag of tricks.  What does it take to create a mid-toned 
> pigement
> on a set of primaries?  I am guessing there are basically two scenarios 
> but
> I stand open to correction.  Scenario one is that both parents have 
> roughly
> the same mid-tone primaries to begin with so the young ends up with the 
> same
> eg. pure GWG X GWG or GWG X Kumliens cross or perhaps at a stretch GWG X
> Thayers cross.  The other scenario is two birds from the opposite end of 
> the
> spectrum ie. Glaucous X Herring or Iceland X Herring or some other
> combination of white-winged and black-winged gull get it on and produce
> something "in between" in tone.
>
> As far as I know the proven hydridising of Iceland Gull with another 
> species
> is almost unheard of (even if Kumlien's may once have arisen from Iceland
> hydridising with Thayer's as one theory suggests).  So if the theory that
> these mid-toned primaries arise from one of these two sources is correct 
> the
> most likely parentage of this bird would surely have to be either pure GWG

> X
> GWG or a Glaucous X Herring hybird.  I favour the latter based on the
> evidence presented so far that seems to rule out pure GWG.  The other
> possibility of course is that this bird is from the West Coast of the USA
> and is genetically such as mixed bag as to make it pointless and 
> impossible
> to guess at its parentage.
>
> What's the chances Killian or Pat might share their thoughts here?
>
> Regards
>
> Mike
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Peter Phillips" 
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 9:33 PM
> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
>
>
> In terms of structure, how is this for a match!
> http://www.pbase.com/jpkln/image/40310381
>
> Eye placement.bill. tertail step and wing lenght all look very similar.
>



>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.67/2506 - Release Date: 11/16/09

> 07:43:00
>
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
From: SUBSCRIBE IBN-L Lee G R Evans <LGREUK400 AT AOL.COM>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 11:46:28 EST
 
Michael
 
Many thanks for your update today. I realise it is a long way to go for  
most Irish birders but I really am surprised in the lack of 'physical' 
interest in it. If that bird was on the west coast of Britain, it would 
certainly 

be  attracting a lot of interest. I realise Killian is unable to put a  
'name' to it and has described the situation very well as regards to birds  of 
this type but this bird really is of great interest and could provide  
excellent opportunities for study and could well provide some answers to this  
complicated jigsaw.
 
Best wishes
 
Lee Evans
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
From: "Casey, Micheal" <Micheal.Casey AT AGRICULTURE.GOV.IE>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 16:27:44 +0000
No problem Peter, will do

Mícheál

-----Original Message-----
From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE]On Behalf Of
Peter Phillips
Sent: 17 November 2009 15:48
To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out


Thanks for that... to all who contributed..I was planning a trip to see the two
Canada Geese so this weekend might be as good time as any.If you hear of
the "Drumcliff Gull" being still around I would be greatfull if you could let 
us 

know, Michael.

Thanks

Peter

Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food

The information contained in this email and in any attachments is confidential 
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recipient(s). This information may be subject to legal and professional 
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An Roinn Talmhaíochta, Iascaigh agus Bia

Tá an t-eolais san ríomhphost seo, agus in aon ceangláin leis, faoi phribhléid 
agus faoi rún agus le h-aghaigh an seolaí amháin. D’fhéadfadh ábhar an seoladh 
seo bheith faoi phribhléid profisiúnta nó dlíthiúil. Mura tusa an seolaí a bhí 
beartaithe leis an ríomhphost seo a fháil, tá cosc air, nó aon chuid de, a 
úsáid, a chóipeál, nó a scaoileadh. Má tháinig sé chugat de bharr dearmad, 
téigh i dteagmháil leis an seoltóir agus scrios an t-ábhar ó do ríomhaire le do 
thoil.
Subject: Re: 'Northern' Glaucous-winged Gulls
From: SUBSCRIBE IBN-L Lee G R Evans <LGREUK400 AT AOL.COM>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 11:09:10 EST
Harry
 
Many, many thanks for your detailed reply. I can not really add any more to 
 the debate and cannot offer any answers. I felt exactly the same way about 
the  first-winter gull that was accepted as a Thayer's Gull in County Mayo 
a few  years back - to my eye that bird was a hybrid (most likely with 
Smithsonianus influence) and did not fulfil a full suite of characters one 
would 

expect from  an undoubted first-winter thayeri. This bird probably falls 
into the same  category.
 
I am told the Sligo bird is still present today, along with two Iceland  
Gulls......
 
All the very best
 
Lee
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
From: Peter Phillips <pmphillips AT EIRCOM.NET>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 15:47:35 +0000
Thanks for that... to all who contributed..I was planning a trip to see the two 

Canada Geese so this weekend might be as good time as any.If you hear of 
the "Drumcliff Gull" being still around I would be greatfull if you could let 
us 

know, Michael. 

Thanks

Peter
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
From: "Casey, Micheal" <Micheal.Casey AT AGRICULTURE.GOV.IE>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 15:15:07 +0000
Thanks to all for the fascinating discussion.

It is very educational for those of us who have not been to the Pacific 
north-west, and will surely be a great resource to refer back to if another 
bird "showing features of..." appears. 


The gull in question is still present on the northern shore of Drumcliff Bay 
today at lunchtime, moving between the strand at Lissadell House's walled 
garden and the shellfish farm at the Goose Field. Two Iceland Gulls were also 
present at this spot, with the main gull flock still present, spread between 
Lissadell and Ardtermon. Unfortunately "the bird" is keeping quite distant, 
with the whole flock quite mobile in the windy conditions. 


The number of stranded Starfish is dramatically reduced, probably by tides as 
well as gulls, but there are plenty of scraps to hold the gulls for another day 
or two. 


Mícheál







-----Original Message-----
From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of Killian 
Mullarney 

Sent: 17 November 2009 12:29
To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out

"What's the chances Killian or Pat might share their thoughts here?"

Of course Mike, but when it comes to making a determination as to the
'purity' or otherwise of a putative vagrant Glaucous-winged Gull, I simply
do not have sufficient experience of the species and lookalike hybrids to
offer any kind of authoritative opinion. It is over 25 years since I last
saw Glaucous-wingeds in numbers and back then their identification was an
even blacker art than it is now! So, all I can do is consult the more recent
literature that deals with G-wG identification and guess at the identity of
the Drumcliff Bay gull.

It seems that almost every suspected out-of-range G-w G within North America
that comes up for discussion on the excellent 'Identification Frontiers'
list  (http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html) attracts a range
of critical opinion, including some birds that appear to have pretty good
credentials. It is very difficult to see how we might ever gain a
sufficiently good grasp of the hybrid problem to be able to identify with
confidence (especially in a vagrant context) birds that do not conform very
closely to the perceived 'ideal' appearance of G-w G. I suspect therefore
that the combination of apparently anomalous features shown by the Drumcliff
bird will ensure that there is a question-mark against its identity for
quite some time to come.

Even if we are never able to identify this individual with any certainty,
its strong superficial resemblance to a G-w G, and the possibility that it
is at least partly derived of that species is a stimulating reminder that we
should expect to find a 'good' one (or a Slaty-backed Gull) any day now.

If only we had a few more old-style dumps to look at...

Regards,

Killian


--------------------------------------------------
From: "Mike O'Keeffe" 
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 11:25 PM
To: 
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out

> Hi,
>
> Its great to see an open ID discussion on the IBN!  Thanks Derek for
> shedding more light on this bird and helping to clarify some of the points
> apparent from the photos.  I think Lee's point about the differing
> appearance between adults and juvenile/1st winters is interesting.  I have
> been thrawling through a great selection of GWG photos on the web and that
> very point occurred to me as I scanned the images.  In particular I was
> struck by how distinctly beady-eyed most adult birds look but many
> immatures
> look rather larger eyed and I wouldnt just put that down to perception of
> the eye size against white or dark feathering.  Could something like that
> be
> due to the quality and density of feathering on the heads of adult birds
> compared to younger birds - sort of like the excessive folds of skin on
> the
> faces of some dog breeds that result in squinty eyes.  Pure speculation.
>
> One feature that seems consistent in all the shots I have seen so far
> however is that GWG is basically round headed while the head shape of the
> Sligo bird as confirmed by Derek is not right and in fact in many shots is
> quite square looking, rather like Glaucous Gull.
>
> Mainly playing the odds I think this is most likely a Glaucous X Herring
> hybrid.  I find it hard to imagine such a uniform mid-toned set of
> primaries
> and tertials being created by any other cross with the exception of a West
> Coast mixed bag of tricks.  What does it take to create a mid-toned
> pigement
> on a set of primaries?  I am guessing there are basically two scenarios
> but
> I stand open to correction.  Scenario one is that both parents have
> roughly
> the same mid-tone primaries to begin with so the young ends up with the
> same
> eg. pure GWG X GWG or GWG X Kumliens cross or perhaps at a stretch GWG X
> Thayers cross.  The other scenario is two birds from the opposite end of
> the
> spectrum ie. Glaucous X Herring or Iceland X Herring or some other
> combination of white-winged and black-winged gull get it on and produce
> something "in between" in tone.
>
> As far as I know the proven hydridising of Iceland Gull with another
> species
> is almost unheard of (even if Kumlien's may once have arisen from Iceland
> hydridising with Thayer's as one theory suggests).  So if the theory that
> these mid-toned primaries arise from one of these two sources is correct
> the
> most likely parentage of this bird would surely have to be either pure GWG
> X
> GWG or a Glaucous X Herring hybird.  I favour the latter based on the
> evidence presented so far that seems to rule out pure GWG.  The other
> possibility of course is that this bird is from the West Coast of the USA
> and is genetically such as mixed bag as to make it pointless and
> impossible
> to guess at its parentage.
>
> What's the chances Killian or Pat might share their thoughts here?
>
> Regards
>
> Mike
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Phillips" 
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 9:33 PM
> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
>
>
> In terms of structure, how is this for a match!
> http://www.pbase.com/jpkln/image/40310381
>
> Eye placement.bill. tertail step and wing lenght all look very similar.
>



>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.67/2506 - Release Date: 11/16/09
> 07:43:00
>

Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food

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An Roinn Talmhaíochta, Iascaigh agus Bia

Tá an t-eolais san ríomhphost seo, agus in aon ceangláin leis, faoi phribhléid 
agus faoi rún agus le h-aghaigh an seolaí amháin. D'fhéadfadh ábhar an seoladh 
seo bheith faoi phribhléid profisiúnta nó dlíthiúil. Mura tusa an seolaí a bhí 
beartaithe leis an ríomhphost seo a fháil, tá cosc air, nó aon chuid de, a 
úsáid, a chóipeál, nó a scaoileadh. Má tháinig sé chugat de bharr dearmad, 
téigh i dteagmháil leis an seoltóir agus scrios an t-ábhar ó do ríomhaire le do 
thoil.
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
From: Mike O'Keeffe <okeeffeml AT EIRCOM.NET>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 13:33:39 -0000
Cheers Killian!

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Killian Mullarney" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out


> "What's the chances Killian or Pat might share their thoughts here?"
>
> Of course Mike, but when it comes to making a determination as to the 
> 'purity' or otherwise of a putative vagrant Glaucous-winged Gull, I simply 
> do not have sufficient experience of the species and lookalike hybrids to 
> offer any kind of authoritative opinion. It is over 25 years since I last 
> saw Glaucous-wingeds in numbers and back then their identification was an 
> even blacker art than it is now! So, all I can do is consult the more 
> recent literature that deals with G-wG identification and guess at the 
> identity of the Drumcliff Bay gull.
>
> It seems that almost every suspected out-of-range G-w G within North 
> America that comes up for discussion on the excellent 'Identification 
> Frontiers' list  (http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html) 
> attracts a range of critical opinion, including some birds that appear to 
> have pretty good credentials. It is very difficult to see how we might 
> ever gain a sufficiently good grasp of the hybrid problem to be able to 
> identify with confidence (especially in a vagrant context) birds that do 
> not conform very closely to the perceived 'ideal' appearance of G-w G. I 
> suspect therefore that the combination of apparently anomalous features 
> shown by the Drumcliff bird will ensure that there is a question-mark 
> against its identity for quite some time to come.
>
> Even if we are never able to identify this individual with any certainty, 
> its strong superficial resemblance to a G-w G, and the possibility that it 
> is at least partly derived of that species is a stimulating reminder that 
> we should expect to find a 'good' one (or a Slaty-backed Gull) any day 
> now.
>
> If only we had a few more old-style dumps to look at...
>
> Regards,
>
> Killian
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Mike O'Keeffe" 
> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 11:25 PM
> To: 
> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Its great to see an open ID discussion on the IBN!  Thanks Derek for
>> shedding more light on this bird and helping to clarify some of the 
>> points
>> apparent from the photos.  I think Lee's point about the differing
>> appearance between adults and juvenile/1st winters is interesting.  I 
>> have
>> been thrawling through a great selection of GWG photos on the web and 
>> that
>> very point occurred to me as I scanned the images.  In particular I was
>> struck by how distinctly beady-eyed most adult birds look but many 
>> immatures
>> look rather larger eyed and I wouldnt just put that down to perception of
>> the eye size against white or dark feathering.  Could something like that 
>> be
>> due to the quality and density of feathering on the heads of adult birds
>> compared to younger birds - sort of like the excessive folds of skin on 
>> the
>> faces of some dog breeds that result in squinty eyes.  Pure speculation.
>>
>> One feature that seems consistent in all the shots I have seen so far
>> however is that GWG is basically round headed while the head shape of the
>> Sligo bird as confirmed by Derek is not right and in fact in many shots 
>> is
>> quite square looking, rather like Glaucous Gull.
>>
>> Mainly playing the odds I think this is most likely a Glaucous X Herring
>> hybrid.  I find it hard to imagine such a uniform mid-toned set of 
>> primaries
>> and tertials being created by any other cross with the exception of a 
>> West
>> Coast mixed bag of tricks.  What does it take to create a mid-toned 
>> pigement
>> on a set of primaries?  I am guessing there are basically two scenarios 
>> but
>> I stand open to correction.  Scenario one is that both parents have 
>> roughly
>> the same mid-tone primaries to begin with so the young ends up with the 
>> same
>> eg. pure GWG X GWG or GWG X Kumliens cross or perhaps at a stretch GWG X
>> Thayers cross.  The other scenario is two birds from the opposite end of 
>> the
>> spectrum ie. Glaucous X Herring or Iceland X Herring or some other
>> combination of white-winged and black-winged gull get it on and produce
>> something "in between" in tone.
>>
>> As far as I know the proven hydridising of Iceland Gull with another 
>> species
>> is almost unheard of (even if Kumlien's may once have arisen from Iceland
>> hydridising with Thayer's as one theory suggests).  So if the theory that
>> these mid-toned primaries arise from one of these two sources is correct 
>> the
>> most likely parentage of this bird would surely have to be either pure 
>> GWG X
>> GWG or a Glaucous X Herring hybird.  I favour the latter based on the
>> evidence presented so far that seems to rule out pure GWG.  The other
>> possibility of course is that this bird is from the West Coast of the USA
>> and is genetically such as mixed bag as to make it pointless and 
>> impossible
>> to guess at its parentage.
>>
>> What's the chances Killian or Pat might share their thoughts here?
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Peter Phillips" 
>> To: 
>> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 9:33 PM
>> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
>>
>>
>> In terms of structure, how is this for a match!
>> http://www.pbase.com/jpkln/image/40310381
>>
>> Eye placement.bill. tertail step and wing lenght all look very similar.
>>
>
>
>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.67/2506 - Release Date: 
>> 11/16/09 07:43:00
>>
>
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
From: Killian Mullarney <kmullarney AT EIRCOM.NET>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 12:28:39 -0000
"What's the chances Killian or Pat might share their thoughts here?"

Of course Mike, but when it comes to making a determination as to the 
'purity' or otherwise of a putative vagrant Glaucous-winged Gull, I simply 
do not have sufficient experience of the species and lookalike hybrids to 
offer any kind of authoritative opinion. It is over 25 years since I last 
saw Glaucous-wingeds in numbers and back then their identification was an 
even blacker art than it is now! So, all I can do is consult the more recent 
literature that deals with G-wG identification and guess at the identity of 
the Drumcliff Bay gull.

It seems that almost every suspected out-of-range G-w G within North America 
that comes up for discussion on the excellent 'Identification Frontiers' 
list  (http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html) attracts a range 
of critical opinion, including some birds that appear to have pretty good 
credentials. It is very difficult to see how we might ever gain a 
sufficiently good grasp of the hybrid problem to be able to identify with 
confidence (especially in a vagrant context) birds that do not conform very 
closely to the perceived 'ideal' appearance of G-w G. I suspect therefore 
that the combination of apparently anomalous features shown by the Drumcliff 
bird will ensure that there is a question-mark against its identity for 
quite some time to come.

Even if we are never able to identify this individual with any certainty, 
its strong superficial resemblance to a G-w G, and the possibility that it 
is at least partly derived of that species is a stimulating reminder that we 
should expect to find a 'good' one (or a Slaty-backed Gull) any day now.

If only we had a few more old-style dumps to look at...

Regards,

Killian


--------------------------------------------------
From: "Mike O'Keeffe" 
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 11:25 PM
To: 
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out

> Hi,
>
> Its great to see an open ID discussion on the IBN!  Thanks Derek for
> shedding more light on this bird and helping to clarify some of the points
> apparent from the photos.  I think Lee's point about the differing
> appearance between adults and juvenile/1st winters is interesting.  I have
> been thrawling through a great selection of GWG photos on the web and that
> very point occurred to me as I scanned the images.  In particular I was
> struck by how distinctly beady-eyed most adult birds look but many 
> immatures
> look rather larger eyed and I wouldnt just put that down to perception of
> the eye size against white or dark feathering.  Could something like that 
> be
> due to the quality and density of feathering on the heads of adult birds
> compared to younger birds - sort of like the excessive folds of skin on 
> the
> faces of some dog breeds that result in squinty eyes.  Pure speculation.
>
> One feature that seems consistent in all the shots I have seen so far
> however is that GWG is basically round headed while the head shape of the
> Sligo bird as confirmed by Derek is not right and in fact in many shots is
> quite square looking, rather like Glaucous Gull.
>
> Mainly playing the odds I think this is most likely a Glaucous X Herring
> hybrid.  I find it hard to imagine such a uniform mid-toned set of 
> primaries
> and tertials being created by any other cross with the exception of a West
> Coast mixed bag of tricks.  What does it take to create a mid-toned 
> pigement
> on a set of primaries?  I am guessing there are basically two scenarios 
> but
> I stand open to correction.  Scenario one is that both parents have 
> roughly
> the same mid-tone primaries to begin with so the young ends up with the 
> same
> eg. pure GWG X GWG or GWG X Kumliens cross or perhaps at a stretch GWG X
> Thayers cross.  The other scenario is two birds from the opposite end of 
> the
> spectrum ie. Glaucous X Herring or Iceland X Herring or some other
> combination of white-winged and black-winged gull get it on and produce
> something "in between" in tone.
>
> As far as I know the proven hydridising of Iceland Gull with another 
> species
> is almost unheard of (even if Kumlien's may once have arisen from Iceland
> hydridising with Thayer's as one theory suggests).  So if the theory that
> these mid-toned primaries arise from one of these two sources is correct 
> the
> most likely parentage of this bird would surely have to be either pure GWG 
> X
> GWG or a Glaucous X Herring hybird.  I favour the latter based on the
> evidence presented so far that seems to rule out pure GWG.  The other
> possibility of course is that this bird is from the West Coast of the USA
> and is genetically such as mixed bag as to make it pointless and 
> impossible
> to guess at its parentage.
>
> What's the chances Killian or Pat might share their thoughts here?
>
> Regards
>
> Mike
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Peter Phillips" 
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 9:33 PM
> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
>
>
> In terms of structure, how is this for a match!
> http://www.pbase.com/jpkln/image/40310381
>
> Eye placement.bill. tertail step and wing lenght all look very similar.
>



>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.67/2506 - Release Date: 11/16/09 
> 07:43:00
>
Subject: Re: 'Northern' Glaucous-winged Gulls
From: Harry Hussey <hhussey3 AT YAHOO.COM>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 04:16:10 -0800
Hi Lee,
    First off, many thanks for the links to similarly aged birds from Japan. I 
already knew, via the Malling Olsen/Larsson gulls guide, that 1st-winter birds 
wintering in east Asia have a tendency to be darker, but it is nice to have a 
series of photos of such birds to look through. 

   That said, to my eyes, all the birds in the Asian links are structurally 
quite distinctive, and would stand out in terms of structure alone as being 
Glaucous-winged types (with the proviso that, as we only know of birds showing 
this phenotype from the wintering grounds, perhaps they are not genetically 
pure GWGU, though one would imagine that they probably are, as they are 
remarkably consistent in appearance for hybrid origin to seem likely). The 
Sligo gull, on the other hand, differs radically from GWGU, be they from Asia 
or North America, in terms of structure, and, if birds can look so different 
from the average and still be pure Glaucous-wingeds, one would expect to find 
adults that were equally distinctive, given that most 1st-winters are very 
similar to adults in this respect. 

    In addition, admittedly based on a limited understanding and quick 'crash 
course' via the literature, the scapular pattern of the Sligo gull doesn't 
match with what I would expect for a Glaucous-winged Gull. It seems to me that 
the scaps should either have more dark in the centre than on the Sligo bird, 
were they retained juvenile feathers, or be largely plain grey or grey with a 
dark shaft streak in the case of 2nd generation scapulars, whereas the pattern 
of the scaps on the bird under discussion reminds me more of that shown by 
'white-winged' gulls, perhaps pointing towards one of those (most likely 
Glaucous) being involved in this bird's parentage. 

     If we are to assume that this is a hybrid, and if Glaucous was one parent, 
the question as to what the other was is more difficult to resolve. The smooth, 
dark underparts and such could just be due to Glaucous genes...some birds are 
remarkably dark and uniform below at this age...but perhaps there are some 
smithsonianus genes in there also? It would explain the rump and tail pattern, 
which resembles a washed out smiths in some respects. Possibly not in favour of 
this would be the largely dark bill, given that smiths and Glaucous of this age 
usually have pale pink bills with dark tips, but it should be borne in mind 
that, while most (European) Herring x Glaucous have a Glaucous-like bill, a 
minority show a darker bill (Yann Kolbeinsson pers comm), and perhaps smiths x 
Glauc is similarly variable? 

     Of course, none of the above should be taken as incontrovertable evidence 
that the bird is NOT a GWGU...I have no experience with the species, after 
all...rather, it is just my opinion. 

                                                      Regards,
                                                            Harry

--- On Mon, 16/11/09, SUBSCRIBE IBN-L Lee G R Evans  wrote:


From: SUBSCRIBE IBN-L Lee G R Evans 
Subject: 'Northern' Glaucous-winged Gulls
To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
Date: Monday, 16 November, 2009, 21:23


Harry

As promised. Glaucous-winged Gulls at the extreme north of the range differ 
quite markedly from birds many of us are familiar with wintering in 
southern  North America in winter and Derek's bird and that which I saw in my 
county last  year may very well be juveniles from this population  




This is what Glaucous-winged Gulls  look like in Japan:


_http://vegae.hp.infoseek.co.jp/Glaw010210/Glaw0102101w.html_ 
(http://vegae.hp.infoseek.co.jp/Glaw010210/Glaw0102101w.html) 

_http://larus.hp.infoseek.co.jp/gl_w_1w/1w_glauw.html_ 
(http://larus.hp.infoseek.co.jp/gl_w_1w/1w_glauw.html) 
_http://vegae.hp.infoseek.co.jp/Gw1w010122S/Gw1w011_22KI.html_ 
(http://vegae.hp.infoseek.co.jp/Gw1w010122S/Gw1w011_22KI.html) 
_http://vegae.hp.infoseek.co.jp/Gw1w010407_2/Gw1w01_4_72.html_ 
(http://vegae.hp.infoseek.co.jp/Gw1w010407_2/Gw1w01_4_72.html) 
_http://vegae.hp.infoseek.co.jp/GlwG1w0103KI/GwG1w0103.html_ 
(http://vegae.hp.infoseek.co.jp/GlwG1w0103KI/GwG1w0103.html) 
_http://www23.tok2.com/home/jgull/020125/gw1w19_25.html_ 
(http://www23.tok2.com/home/jgull/020125/gw1w19_25.html) 
_http://www23.tok2.com/home/jgull/020205/GW.html_ 
(http://www23.tok2.com/home/jgull/020205/GW.html) 
_http://www23.tok2.com/home/jgull/020214/gw1wA.html_ 
(http://www23.tok2.com/home/jgull/020214/gw1wA.html) 

and this is what they look like in southeast  England !!

_http://peteralfreybirdingnotebook.blogspot.com/2009/04/210409-beddington.ht
ml_ 
(http://peteralfreybirdingnotebook.blogspot.com/2009/04/210409-beddington.html) 

_http://peteralfreybirdingnotebook.blogspot.com/2009/05/gull-again.html_ 
(http://peteralfreybirdingnotebook.blogspot.com/2009/05/gull-again.html) 
_http://peteralfreybirdingnotebook.blogspot.com/2009/05/gull-monster-strikes
-again.html_ 

(http://peteralfreybirdingnotebook.blogspot.com/2009/05/gull-monster-strikes-again.html) 

_http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=139630_ 
(http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=139630) 
_http://surfbirds.com/forum/showthread.php?p=13848#post13848_ 
(http://surfbirds.com/forum/showthread.php?p=13848#post13848) 
_http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.com/2009/04/arctic-gull-rears-its-ug
ly-head-again.html_ 

(http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.com/2009/04/arctic-gull-rears-its-ugly-head-again.html) 

_http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/londonbirders/messages_ 
(http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/londonbirders/messages) 
_http://steveblain.blogspot.com/2009/03/white-winged-nightmare.html_ 
(http://steveblain.blogspot.com/2009/03/white-winged-nightmare.html) 
_http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/londonbirders/photos/album/1836179525/pic/
list_ 

(http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/londonbirders/photos/album/1836179525/pic/list) 

_http://www.michaelmckee.co.uk/regionthumb.asp?Year=2009&Region=Berkshire&of
fset=24_ 

(http://www.michaelmckee.co.uk/regionthumb.asp?Year=2009&Region=Berkshire&offset=24) 

_http://www.michaelmckee.co.uk/regionthumb.asp?Year=2009&Region=Berkshire&of
fset=36_ 

(http://www.michaelmckee.co.uk/regionthumb.asp?Year=2009&Region=Berkshire&offset=36) 

_http://www.elbf.co.uk/gallery/thumbnails/2009/birdphotos2009f.htm_ 
(http://www.elbf.co.uk/gallery/thumbnails/2009/birdphotos2009f.htm) 

This latter bird I have tentatively written off as a 'hybrid' but am I  
doing it an injustice? Maybe this is what juvenile GWG look like

Best wishes










Lee G R Evans
British Birding Association
UK400 Club,  Rare Birds Magazine, Ornithological Consultant and 
Conservationist
Discussion  Forum/Email Group: _http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UK400Club/_ 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UK400Club/) 
Rare  Bird Alert: 
_http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RareBirdAlertforBritainandIreland_UK400ClubBBA/_ 

(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RareBirdAlertforBritainandIreland_UK400ClubBBA/) 

Email  Address: LGREUK400 AT aol.com
Website Address: _www.uk400clubonline.co.uk_ 
(http://www.uk400clubonline.co.uk/) 
Related  Blog Sites: _http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.com/_ 
(http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.com/) _  
http://rarebirdsinthewesternpalearctic.blogspot.com/  
http://birdingamersham.blogspot.com/_ 

(http://birdingamersham.blogspot.com/) _  
http://birdingtringreservoirs.blogspot.com/_ 

(http://birdingtringreservoirs.blogspot.com/) 
_http://calvertbirding.blogspot.com/_ (http://calvertbirding.blogspot.com/) 
_http://hertfordshirebirding.blogspot.com/_ 
(http://hertfordshirebirding.blogspot.com/) 
_http://buckinghamshirebirding.blogspot.com/_ 
(http://buckinghamshirebirding.blogspot.com/) 
_http://birdreportexchange.blogspot.com/_ 
(http://birdreportexchange.blogspot.com/) 

Chaffinch  House
8 Sandycroft Road
Little  Chalfont
Amersham
Buckinghamshire
England
HP6 6QL

Telephones:  01494 763010 and 01494 581157
Mobile/Text Alerts: 07881 906629

(Lee  Evans Enterprises incorporate documentation of rare bird occurrences 
in Britain  & Ireland and elsewhere in the Western Palearctic and in North 
America; Rare  Bird Information and Rare Bird Alerts; Rare Birds Magazine and 
other related  publications; Bird Tours for  Birders)
Subject: Re: Glaucous winged Gull
From: Richard Mills <birdpics AT NEWSGUY.COM>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 11:24:50 +0000
If anyone needs some shots of GWGs, I have quite a few taken in the 
Yukon/Alaska and Vancouver Island, both adults and some manky juvs.

Richard.

At 19:25 16/11/2009, you wrote:
>I was in Vancouver last autumn for a few weeks so GWG is relatively fresh in
>my mind. Most of the birds I saw were adults or near-adults and I didn't see
>birds in this plumage so just a few comments on structure. I think we are
>all well used to structural features on large gulls being frustratingly
>subtle, variable and difficult to judge but I found that most of the
>published features on GWG structure are really very obvious in the field.
>The bill is very deep and very blob-ended, the eys is tiny and very high on
>the face, the overall body shape is truncated and rounded with short wing
>projection and an obvious tertial step. I also noted that the legs of GWG
>seem very short giving what is basically an ugly dumpy podgy mean-looking
>gull a positively comical look when walking. I suppose what I am basically
>saying is that GWG is extremely jizzy and sad to say I'm not getting any of
>that from the (excellent) photos of the Sligo bird.
>
>Rick Mundy
>
>
>On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Derek Charles  wrote:
>
> > Hello Peter/Eugene,
> > no i don't think everyone is being to cautious.
> > I think the following features are at odds with it being a pure GWG:
> >
> > Bill length and shape.
> >
> > Head Shape. GWG seems to show a round headed appearance unlike the angular
> > head of the Sligo bird.
> >
> > Long Winged appearance which isn't helped by the long body, both at odds
> > with the dumpy short winged appearance of GWG.
> >
> > I am sure you will get some of these features on individual birds but to
> > have all of them on one bird leaves questions unanswered. Ive googled some
> > photos which look close enough to the Sligo bird but do we know if they are
> > pure birds?
> >
> > Plumage wise Glaucous Winged Gull is the best fit but i think all options
> > should be considered for an out of range individual like this. I 
> still think
> > a hybrid GWG is best option probably with AHG (as others have suggested
> > privately).
> >
> > Now if an American expert proclaims it is a pure Glaucous Winged that will
> > create a bit of a scramble although i think that scenario is unlikely. I
> > think for a Glaucous Winged Gull to get admitted to the Irish list it will
> > need to be a classic individual which this one isn't.
> >
> > derek
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: Irish Bird Network on behalf of Peter Phillips
> > Sent: Mon 16/11/2009 14:11
> > To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
> > Subject: Re: Glaucous winged Gull
> >
> >
> >
> > Im no gull expert.............but it looks a lot like the 1cy GW Gulls in
> > the link. Is
> > there any features not consistant with GWGull? Is every one being very
> > cautious. I think its one and if I am wrong Im prepared to eat Ed Cartys
> > mobile
> > phone..if he has'nt eaten it himself allready
> >
> > Peter
> >
Subject: maybe
From: Eamonn <eamonn AT COLLIERKITCHENS.IE>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 11:30:12 -0000
Don't give up hope yet boys of another tasty piece of meat.

Belted Kingfisher in Spain yesterday.

 

Sweet memories.

 

BBBW

 

http://www.rarebirdspain.net/home.htm 



##################################################################################### 

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Subject: Re: County Cork botany book
From: Tom Gittings <tgittings AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:38:28 +0000
Just to add my recommendation. It is a superb book and differs from the
traditional county flora in that it is written in a narrative style, rather
than the formal species list approach. This makes it more readable and
allows the author's distinctive personality to shine through. Most of the
Co. Cork birding sites are included, so for birders there is an added interest.

Link to publishers website: www.collinspress.ie/products.asp?cat=30&pg=3

Tom Gittings
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
From: Derek Charles <Derek AT METSTEEL.CO.UK>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 08:39:36 -0000
Bob,
I don't have her phone number but I know where she lives. I used to walk up and 
down past it every Friday night during the winter months until I was fifteen. 
Alas the curtains were always closed. For years I lived in hope that she would 
buy blinds. 

 
Charles
 
ps sorry Jim!

________________________________

From: Irish Bird Network on behalf of Eamonn
Sent: Tue 17/11/2009 08:31
To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out



Hi Charles,
Who's Jim Fitzpatrick? :-).
Peter, that was a jolly entertaining posting indeed even if I too didn't know 
most of the words. 


I was going to mention the deafening silence of our resident Laridaphiles about 
that gull. Perhaps it is the same principal as the moths websites. There are 
times someone can post a shot for id and nobody would answer. You can even ask 
twice and still not an answer. I suspect it is because they know there is no 
way it can be positively identified and simply don't bother with it. 


I'm devastated Mick didn't ask for my opinion either !

BBBW
P.S. Do you have a phone number for Miss Dixon??



-----Original Message-----
From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of Derek 
Charles 

Sent: 17 November 2009 08:16
To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out

Hello Rick, no worries at all, in fact brought me back to my school days when 
my very attractive maths teacher Miss Dixon used to shout nearly everyday 
"Charles stop talking down at the back" Once she brought me to the top of the 
class and shouted "CHARLES if you don't stop talking you will have all your 
words used up by the time your 30!" My face used to go bright red every time 
she spoke to me. She reckoned without Jim Fitzpatrick and Peter Doyle who teach 
me new words all the time. 

Peters last post on the Devils Island there were at least ten words I had never 
heard before, many of them probably not even in the revised Oxford English 
Dictionary! So thanks Peter keep it up I would really love to know what you 
really think about the Sligo Gull! 


Sorry everyone for going off topic!

derek

________________________________

From: Irish Bird Network on behalf of richard mundy
Sent: Mon 16/11/2009 20:39
To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out



Sorry Derek for calling you Charles!

Rick

On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 8:28 PM, derek charles 
wrote: 


> Hello Rick/Lee,
>
> thanks for a couple of well considered posts.
>
>
>
> The bird was slightly larger than the argenteus Herrings (no argantatus
> seen).But not massively so. It didn't give any impression of Glaucous at
> all. On the water perhaps because it was sitting higher in the water? it
> looked considerably bigger that the Herrings.
>
>
>
> I think we can probably rule out any GBBG involvement.
>
>
>
> Glaucous must be considered. Ive seen a fair few presumed Glaucous x
> Herring hybrids the past 4/5 years. The small size would not rule out
> Glaucous involvement as i have seen birds very Herring like with maybe only
> one or two pro Glaucous features. Ive also seen birds very Glaucous like
> with one or two pro Herring features.
>
>
>
> I have also considered hybrids from the Thayer/Iceland/Kumliens complex and
> while a possibility i would think any of that group paired with an American
> Herring Gull would have a dark tailband as all four have dark to very dark
> tailbands in first winter. The Sligo bird had a pale brown tailband. I could
> be wrong of course.
>
>
>
> What a Glaucous Winged x Thayers would look like is another matter.
>
>
>
> Derek
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:07:49 +0000
> > From: ruckrick AT GMAIL.COM
> > Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
> > To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
> >
> > I just noticed that you mention the funny walk Derek - very interesting!
> >
> > I've had another look at the photos and I'd agree with Mike that the eye
> > position looks better on the newer ones, and I guess the small high eye
> is
> > going to be a lot more conspicuous on a white head than on a brown one,
> but
> > I still don't think it looks right really. I would also agree with Mike
> that
> > the overall structure and long wings don't look right and I would add
> that I
> > think the bill shape is really not right at all - but of course these
> things
> > are very hard to judge from photos.
> >
> > Is the bird very large? The talk of Glauc and GBB hybrids would imply
> that
> > it is but it doesn't really look to be from the pics, in fact it looks
> > rather small and slim and elegant. Has a Herring complex X Iceland
> complex
> > hybrid been considered?
> >
> > Rick
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 8:12 AM, derek charles <
> derek.charles AT hotmail.com>wrote:
> >
> > > Hello Mike,
> > >
> > > I seen the Nimmos bird six or seven times over two winters (it was a
> 2ndw
> > > and 3rdw) and the Sligo bird is completely different structurally. It
> also
> > > had a very unique way of walking very up right, different to any
> Herring or
> > > Glaucous i have seen. It was a very aggressive bird which i know counts
> for
> > > nothing but it completely dominated all the Herrings present and even
> had a
> > > go at a Great Black Backed an encounter which it lost!
> > >
> > > The Nimmos bird was much smaller and was often reported by
> un-suspecting
> > > visitors as a Kumliens Gull.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > derek
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 20:32:26 +0000
> > > > From: okeeffeml AT EIRCOM.NET
> > > > Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
> > > > To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
> > > >
> > > > All,
> > > >
> > > > The bird I was thinking of is featured on the March 2005 page on
> > > > birdsireland.com. Plumage wise very different but structurally
> similar I
> > > > think.
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> http://www.birdsireland.com/pages/rare_bird_news/2005/march_photos.html
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Ronan McLaughlin" 
> > > > To: 
> > > > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 8:00 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Gentlemen,
> > > > >
> > > > > If anyone's interested I think I have shots of the bird that Mike
> is
> > > > > taking about, however I think its a third winter type which may or
> may
> > > not
> > > > > be of help when comparing with a first winter. If anyone wants them
> > > please
> > > > > drop me a line. Excellent shots Derek, and certainly an interesting
> > > bird.
> > > > >
> > > > > regards
> > > > >
> > > > > Rónán
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Mike O'Keeffe" 
> > > > > To: 
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 12:11 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> Mícheál,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Your posting made it on to the IBN alright. Only seeing the shots
> this
> > > > >> morning and they are brilliant - well done!
> > > > >>
> > > > >> It does appear to me rather too Herring Gull like in overall
> > > appearance,
> > > > >> not the compact, bulky, short winged look with that classic beady
> eye
> > > > >> positioned high and far back in the head of classic GWG. Other
> than
> > > the
> > > > >> structural impressions I have no real comments. I have no first
> hand
> > > > >> experience of those messy West Coast integrades and I find
> discussions
> > > re
> > > > >> same on ID Frontiers hard to read. Have you guys had any opinions
> from
> > > > >> the USA?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> There is something vaguely familiar about the bird - it reminds me
> of
> > > a
> > > > >> hybrid that was at Nimmo's some years ago. Looking at shots of
> > > supposed
> > > > >> integrade Glaucous-winged X Herring on the net the primaries and
> > > tertials
> > > > >> often appear darker in those birds so I wonder could it just be a
> well
> > > > >> marked Glaucous X Herring or a Glaucous X Great Black-backed
> hybrid?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Nice find Derek!
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Regards
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Mike
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > > >> From: "Mícheál Casey" 
> > > > >> To: 
> > > > >> Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 11:20 AM
> > > > >> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Hi Edward,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Expert opinions received so far are on the side of it being a
> hybrid,
> > > > >> possibly Glaucous-winged x Herring Gull.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Nobody in Sligo, including the finder, Derek Charles, put the bird
> out
> > > as
> > > > >> anything other than a possible Glaucous-winged Gull.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The note on Irishbirding.com summarises current opinion fairly
> well
> > > "1st
> > > > >> Winter type bird showing characteristics of a Glaucous-winged
> Gull.
> > > > >> Drumcliff Bay. Hybrid not ruled out."
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I posted a link to some images of the bird last night on the
> IBN-L,
> > > which
> > > > >> doesn't seem to have gone through to the list.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Trying again here - images are posted at
> > > > >> http://www.sligobirding.com/November2009Gallery.html
> > > > >>
> > > > >> It is certainly a very striking looking bird, quite unlike any
> other
> > > gull
> > > > >> we have seen in Sligo. The spectacular stranding of tonnes of
> starfish
> > > > >> at Lissadell has attracted about 1,000 gulls showing up in a
> > > concentrated
> > > > >> area, which yesterday included 1 Kumliens Gull, a first winter
> > > > >> Ring-billed Gull, two Iceland Gulls and this bird.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Regards,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Mícheál
> > > > >>
> > > > >> PS Just spotted that I accidentally sent last night's email from
> my
> > > new
> > > > >> email address which is not registered for IBN-L mail - my
> apologies
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Begin forwarded message:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> From: Mícheál Casey 
> > > > >>> Date: 14 November 2009 22:29:35 GMT
> > > > >>> To: Irish Bird Network 
> > > > >>> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous-winged Gull Sligo
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Hi John, and all,
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Photos of the bird in question are now up on the November Gallery
> > > page
> > > > >>> of the BirdWatch Sligo website.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> See http://www.sligobirding.com/November2009Gallery.html
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Comments welcome.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Go on, we can take it!
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On 15 Nov 2009, at 10:45, Edward Carty wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> All,
> > > > >>> Can anyone shed light on this Gull at Lissadell Sligo,Birdguides
> > > > >>> again had
> > > > >>> something to share this morning and after the !(notable) for our
> > > First
> > > > >>> Red
> > > > >>> flanked Bluetail this week instead of the !!!(mega) they had
> > > > >>> X(correction) and
> > > > >>> just now an unhappy face(negative news) for the Gull........Has
> the
> > > bird
> > > > >>> been
> > > > >>> confirmed as a Glaucous winged Gull.......?
> > > > >>> Not that I will be travelling of course...........!
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > Have more than one Hotmail account? Link them together to easily access
> > > both
> > > http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/186394591/direct/01/
> > >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Got more than one Hotmail account? Save time by linking them together
>  http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/186394591/direct/01/
>

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Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
From: Eamonn <eamonn AT COLLIERKITCHENS.IE>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 08:31:02 -0000
Hi Charles,
Who's Jim Fitzpatrick? :-).
Peter, that was a jolly entertaining posting indeed even if I too didn't know 
most of the words. 


I was going to mention the deafening silence of our resident Laridaphiles about 
that gull. Perhaps it is the same principal as the moths websites. There are 
times someone can post a shot for id and nobody would answer. You can even ask 
twice and still not an answer. I suspect it is because they know there is no 
way it can be positively identified and simply don't bother with it. 


I'm devastated Mick didn't ask for my opinion either !

BBBW
P.S. Do you have a phone number for Miss Dixon??



-----Original Message-----
From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of Derek 
Charles 

Sent: 17 November 2009 08:16
To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out

Hello Rick, no worries at all, in fact brought me back to my school days when 
my very attractive maths teacher Miss Dixon used to shout nearly everyday 
"Charles stop talking down at the back" Once she brought me to the top of the 
class and shouted "CHARLES if you don't stop talking you will have all your 
words used up by the time your 30!" My face used to go bright red every time 
she spoke to me. She reckoned without Jim Fitzpatrick and Peter Doyle who teach 
me new words all the time. 

Peters last post on the Devils Island there were at least ten words I had never 
heard before, many of them probably not even in the revised Oxford English 
Dictionary! So thanks Peter keep it up I would really love to know what you 
really think about the Sligo Gull! 

 
Sorry everyone for going off topic!
 
derek

________________________________

From: Irish Bird Network on behalf of richard mundy
Sent: Mon 16/11/2009 20:39
To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out



Sorry Derek for calling you Charles!

Rick

On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 8:28 PM, derek charles 
wrote: 


> Hello Rick/Lee,
>
> thanks for a couple of well considered posts.
>
>
>
> The bird was slightly larger than the argenteus Herrings (no argantatus
> seen).But not massively so. It didn't give any impression of Glaucous at
> all. On the water perhaps because it was sitting higher in the water? it
> looked considerably bigger that the Herrings.
>
>
>
> I think we can probably rule out any GBBG involvement.
>
>
>
> Glaucous must be considered. Ive seen a fair few presumed Glaucous x
> Herring hybrids the past 4/5 years. The small size would not rule out
> Glaucous involvement as i have seen birds very Herring like with maybe only
> one or two pro Glaucous features. Ive also seen birds very Glaucous like
> with one or two pro Herring features.
>
>
>
> I have also considered hybrids from the Thayer/Iceland/Kumliens complex and
> while a possibility i would think any of that group paired with an American
> Herring Gull would have a dark tailband as all four have dark to very dark
> tailbands in first winter. The Sligo bird had a pale brown tailband. I could
> be wrong of course.
>
>
>
> What a Glaucous Winged x Thayers would look like is another matter.
>
>
>
> Derek
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:07:49 +0000
> > From: ruckrick AT GMAIL.COM
> > Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
> > To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
> >
> > I just noticed that you mention the funny walk Derek - very interesting!
> >
> > I've had another look at the photos and I'd agree with Mike that the eye
> > position looks better on the newer ones, and I guess the small high eye
> is
> > going to be a lot more conspicuous on a white head than on a brown one,
> but
> > I still don't think it looks right really. I would also agree with Mike
> that
> > the overall structure and long wings don't look right and I would add
> that I
> > think the bill shape is really not right at all - but of course these
> things
> > are very hard to judge from photos.
> >
> > Is the bird very large? The talk of Glauc and GBB hybrids would imply
> that
> > it is but it doesn't really look to be from the pics, in fact it looks
> > rather small and slim and elegant. Has a Herring complex X Iceland
> complex
> > hybrid been considered?
> >
> > Rick
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 8:12 AM, derek charles <
> derek.charles AT hotmail.com>wrote:
> >
> > > Hello Mike,
> > >
> > > I seen the Nimmos bird six or seven times over two winters (it was a
> 2ndw
> > > and 3rdw) and the Sligo bird is completely different structurally. It
> also
> > > had a very unique way of walking very up right, different to any
> Herring or
> > > Glaucous i have seen. It was a very aggressive bird which i know counts
> for
> > > nothing but it completely dominated all the Herrings present and even
> had a
> > > go at a Great Black Backed an encounter which it lost!
> > >
> > > The Nimmos bird was much smaller and was often reported by
> un-suspecting
> > > visitors as a Kumliens Gull.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > derek
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 20:32:26 +0000
> > > > From: okeeffeml AT EIRCOM.NET
> > > > Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
> > > > To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
> > > >
> > > > All,
> > > >
> > > > The bird I was thinking of is featured on the March 2005 page on
> > > > birdsireland.com. Plumage wise very different but structurally
> similar I
> > > > think.
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> http://www.birdsireland.com/pages/rare_bird_news/2005/march_photos.html
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Ronan McLaughlin" 
> > > > To: 
> > > > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 8:00 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Gentlemen,
> > > > >
> > > > > If anyone's interested I think I have shots of the bird that Mike
> is
> > > > > taking about, however I think its a third winter type which may or
> may
> > > not
> > > > > be of help when comparing with a first winter. If anyone wants them
> > > please
> > > > > drop me a line. Excellent shots Derek, and certainly an interesting
> > > bird.
> > > > >
> > > > > regards
> > > > >
> > > > > Rónán
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Mike O'Keeffe" 
> > > > > To: 
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 12:11 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> Mícheál,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Your posting made it on to the IBN alright. Only seeing the shots
> this
> > > > >> morning and they are brilliant - well done!
> > > > >>
> > > > >> It does appear to me rather too Herring Gull like in overall
> > > appearance,
> > > > >> not the compact, bulky, short winged look with that classic beady
> eye
> > > > >> positioned high and far back in the head of classic GWG. Other
> than
> > > the
> > > > >> structural impressions I have no real comments. I have no first
> hand
> > > > >> experience of those messy West Coast integrades and I find
> discussions
> > > re
> > > > >> same on ID Frontiers hard to read. Have you guys had any opinions
> from
> > > > >> the USA?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> There is something vaguely familiar about the bird - it reminds me
> of
> > > a
> > > > >> hybrid that was at Nimmo's some years ago. Looking at shots of
> > > supposed
> > > > >> integrade Glaucous-winged X Herring on the net the primaries and
> > > tertials
> > > > >> often appear darker in those birds so I wonder could it just be a
> well
> > > > >> marked Glaucous X Herring or a Glaucous X Great Black-backed
> hybrid?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Nice find Derek!
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Regards
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Mike
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > > >> From: "Mícheál Casey" 
> > > > >> To: 
> > > > >> Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 11:20 AM
> > > > >> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Hi Edward,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Expert opinions received so far are on the side of it being a
> hybrid,
> > > > >> possibly Glaucous-winged x Herring Gull.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Nobody in Sligo, including the finder, Derek Charles, put the bird
> out
> > > as
> > > > >> anything other than a possible Glaucous-winged Gull.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The note on Irishbirding.com summarises current opinion fairly
> well
> > > "1st
> > > > >> Winter type bird showing characteristics of a Glaucous-winged
> Gull.
> > > > >> Drumcliff Bay. Hybrid not ruled out."
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I posted a link to some images of the bird last night on the
> IBN-L,
> > > which
> > > > >> doesn't seem to have gone through to the list.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Trying again here - images are posted at
> > > > >> http://www.sligobirding.com/November2009Gallery.html
> > > > >>
> > > > >> It is certainly a very striking looking bird, quite unlike any
> other
> > > gull
> > > > >> we have seen in Sligo. The spectacular stranding of tonnes of
> starfish
> > > > >> at Lissadell has attracted about 1,000 gulls showing up in a
> > > concentrated
> > > > >> area, which yesterday included 1 Kumliens Gull, a first winter
> > > > >> Ring-billed Gull, two Iceland Gulls and this bird.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Regards,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Mícheál
> > > > >>
> > > > >> PS Just spotted that I accidentally sent last night's email from
> my
> > > new
> > > > >> email address which is not registered for IBN-L mail - my
> apologies
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Begin forwarded message:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> From: Mícheál Casey 
> > > > >>> Date: 14 November 2009 22:29:35 GMT
> > > > >>> To: Irish Bird Network 
> > > > >>> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous-winged Gull Sligo
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Hi John, and all,
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Photos of the bird in question are now up on the November Gallery
> > > page
> > > > >>> of the BirdWatch Sligo website.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> See http://www.sligobirding.com/November2009Gallery.html
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Comments welcome.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Go on, we can take it!
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On 15 Nov 2009, at 10:45, Edward Carty wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> All,
> > > > >>> Can anyone shed light on this Gull at Lissadell Sligo,Birdguides
> > > > >>> again had
> > > > >>> something to share this morning and after the !(notable) for our
> > > First
> > > > >>> Red
> > > > >>> flanked Bluetail this week instead of the !!!(mega) they had
> > > > >>> X(correction) and
> > > > >>> just now an unhappy face(negative news) for the Gull........Has
> the
> > > bird
> > > > >>> been
> > > > >>> confirmed as a Glaucous winged Gull.......?
> > > > >>> Not that I will be travelling of course...........!
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > Have more than one Hotmail account? Link them together to easily access
> > > both
> > > http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/186394591/direct/01/
> > >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Got more than one Hotmail account? Save time by linking them together
>  http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/186394591/direct/01/
>

##################################################################################### 

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#####################################################################################
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
From: Derek Charles <Derek AT METSTEEL.CO.UK>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 08:16:05 -0000
Hello Rick, no worries at all, in fact brought me back to my school days when 
my very attractive maths teacher Miss Dixon used to shout nearly everyday 
"Charles stop talking down at the back" Once she brought me to the top of the 
class and shouted "CHARLES if you don't stop talking you will have all your 
words used up by the time your 30!" My face used to go bright red every time 
she spoke to me. She reckoned without Jim Fitzpatrick and Peter Doyle who teach 
me new words all the time. 

Peters last post on the Devils Island there were at least ten words I had never 
heard before, many of them probably not even in the revised Oxford English 
Dictionary! So thanks Peter keep it up I would really love to know what you 
really think about the Sligo Gull! 

 
Sorry everyone for going off topic!
 
derek

________________________________

From: Irish Bird Network on behalf of richard mundy
Sent: Mon 16/11/2009 20:39
To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out



Sorry Derek for calling you Charles!

Rick

On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 8:28 PM, derek charles 
wrote: 


> Hello Rick/Lee,
>
> thanks for a couple of well considered posts.
>
>
>
> The bird was slightly larger than the argenteus Herrings (no argantatus
> seen).But not massively so. It didn't give any impression of Glaucous at
> all. On the water perhaps because it was sitting higher in the water? it
> looked considerably bigger that the Herrings.
>
>
>
> I think we can probably rule out any GBBG involvement.
>
>
>
> Glaucous must be considered. Ive seen a fair few presumed Glaucous x
> Herring hybrids the past 4/5 years. The small size would not rule out
> Glaucous involvement as i have seen birds very Herring like with maybe only
> one or two pro Glaucous features. Ive also seen birds very Glaucous like
> with one or two pro Herring features.
>
>
>
> I have also considered hybrids from the Thayer/Iceland/Kumliens complex and
> while a possibility i would think any of that group paired with an American
> Herring Gull would have a dark tailband as all four have dark to very dark
> tailbands in first winter. The Sligo bird had a pale brown tailband. I could
> be wrong of course.
>
>
>
> What a Glaucous Winged x Thayers would look like is another matter.
>
>
>
> Derek
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:07:49 +0000
> > From: ruckrick AT GMAIL.COM
> > Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
> > To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
> >
> > I just noticed that you mention the funny walk Derek - very interesting!
> >
> > I've had another look at the photos and I'd agree with Mike that the eye
> > position looks better on the newer ones, and I guess the small high eye
> is
> > going to be a lot more conspicuous on a white head than on a brown one,
> but
> > I still don't think it looks right really. I would also agree with Mike
> that
> > the overall structure and long wings don't look right and I would add
> that I
> > think the bill shape is really not right at all - but of course these
> things
> > are very hard to judge from photos.
> >
> > Is the bird very large? The talk of Glauc and GBB hybrids would imply
> that
> > it is but it doesn't really look to be from the pics, in fact it looks
> > rather small and slim and elegant. Has a Herring complex X Iceland
> complex
> > hybrid been considered?
> >
> > Rick
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 8:12 AM, derek charles <
> derek.charles AT hotmail.com>wrote:
> >
> > > Hello Mike,
> > >
> > > I seen the Nimmos bird six or seven times over two winters (it was a
> 2ndw
> > > and 3rdw) and the Sligo bird is completely different structurally. It
> also
> > > had a very unique way of walking very up right, different to any
> Herring or
> > > Glaucous i have seen. It was a very aggressive bird which i know counts
> for
> > > nothing but it completely dominated all the Herrings present and even
> had a
> > > go at a Great Black Backed an encounter which it lost!
> > >
> > > The Nimmos bird was much smaller and was often reported by
> un-suspecting
> > > visitors as a Kumliens Gull.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > derek
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 20:32:26 +0000
> > > > From: okeeffeml AT EIRCOM.NET
> > > > Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
> > > > To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
> > > >
> > > > All,
> > > >
> > > > The bird I was thinking of is featured on the March 2005 page on
> > > > birdsireland.com. Plumage wise very different but structurally
> similar I
> > > > think.
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> http://www.birdsireland.com/pages/rare_bird_news/2005/march_photos.html
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Ronan McLaughlin" 
> > > > To: 
> > > > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 8:00 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Gentlemen,
> > > > >
> > > > > If anyone's interested I think I have shots of the bird that Mike
> is
> > > > > taking about, however I think its a third winter type which may or
> may
> > > not
> > > > > be of help when comparing with a first winter. If anyone wants them
> > > please
> > > > > drop me a line. Excellent shots Derek, and certainly an interesting
> > > bird.
> > > > >
> > > > > regards
> > > > >
> > > > > Rónán
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Mike O'Keeffe" 
> > > > > To: 
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 12:11 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> Mícheál,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Your posting made it on to the IBN alright. Only seeing the shots
> this
> > > > >> morning and they are brilliant - well done!
> > > > >>
> > > > >> It does appear to me rather too Herring Gull like in overall
> > > appearance,
> > > > >> not the compact, bulky, short winged look with that classic beady
> eye
> > > > >> positioned high and far back in the head of classic GWG. Other
> than
> > > the
> > > > >> structural impressions I have no real comments. I have no first
> hand
> > > > >> experience of those messy West Coast integrades and I find
> discussions
> > > re
> > > > >> same on ID Frontiers hard to read. Have you guys had any opinions
> from
> > > > >> the USA?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> There is something vaguely familiar about the bird - it reminds me
> of
> > > a
> > > > >> hybrid that was at Nimmo's some years ago. Looking at shots of
> > > supposed
> > > > >> integrade Glaucous-winged X Herring on the net the primaries and
> > > tertials
> > > > >> often appear darker in those birds so I wonder could it just be a
> well
> > > > >> marked Glaucous X Herring or a Glaucous X Great Black-backed
> hybrid?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Nice find Derek!
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Regards
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Mike
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > > >> From: "Mícheál Casey" 
> > > > >> To: 
> > > > >> Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 11:20 AM
> > > > >> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Hi Edward,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Expert opinions received so far are on the side of it being a
> hybrid,
> > > > >> possibly Glaucous-winged x Herring Gull.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Nobody in Sligo, including the finder, Derek Charles, put the bird
> out
> > > as
> > > > >> anything other than a possible Glaucous-winged Gull.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The note on Irishbirding.com summarises current opinion fairly
> well
> > > "1st
> > > > >> Winter type bird showing characteristics of a Glaucous-winged
> Gull.
> > > > >> Drumcliff Bay. Hybrid not ruled out."
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I posted a link to some images of the bird last night on the
> IBN-L,
> > > which
> > > > >> doesn't seem to have gone through to the list.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Trying again here - images are posted at
> > > > >> http://www.sligobirding.com/November2009Gallery.html
> > > > >>
> > > > >> It is certainly a very striking looking bird, quite unlike any
> other
> > > gull
> > > > >> we have seen in Sligo. The spectacular stranding of tonnes of
> starfish
> > > > >> at Lissadell has attracted about 1,000 gulls showing up in a
> > > concentrated
> > > > >> area, which yesterday included 1 Kumliens Gull, a first winter
> > > > >> Ring-billed Gull, two Iceland Gulls and this bird.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Regards,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Mícheál
> > > > >>
> > > > >> PS Just spotted that I accidentally sent last night's email from
> my
> > > new
> > > > >> email address which is not registered for IBN-L mail - my
> apologies
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Begin forwarded message:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> From: Mícheál Casey 
> > > > >>> Date: 14 November 2009 22:29:35 GMT
> > > > >>> To: Irish Bird Network 
> > > > >>> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous-winged Gull Sligo
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Hi John, and all,
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Photos of the bird in question are now up on the November Gallery
> > > page
> > > > >>> of the BirdWatch Sligo website.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> See http://www.sligobirding.com/November2009Gallery.html
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Comments welcome.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Go on, we can take it!
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On 15 Nov 2009, at 10:45, Edward Carty wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> All,
> > > > >>> Can anyone shed light on this Gull at Lissadell Sligo,Birdguides
> > > > >>> again had
> > > > >>> something to share this morning and after the !(notable) for our
> > > First
> > > > >>> Red
> > > > >>> flanked Bluetail this week instead of the !!!(mega) they had
> > > > >>> X(correction) and
> > > > >>> just now an unhappy face(negative news) for the Gull........Has
> the
> > > bird
> > > > >>> been
> > > > >>> confirmed as a Glaucous winged Gull.......?
> > > > >>> Not that I will be travelling of course...........!
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > Have more than one Hotmail account? Link them together to easily access
> > > both
> > > http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/186394591/direct/01/
> > >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Got more than one Hotmail account? Save time by linking them together
>  http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/186394591/direct/01/
>
Subject: Re: County Cork botany book
From: bom <bomah AT EIRCOM.NET>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 00:47:44 +0000
Hi Richard

Some price difference is right! You could say the same about the 6.50 
euro delivery charge that one must pay to avail of this great bargain!

I will heading to the local bookshop (Liam Ruiseal) for my copy

bom



Richard Mills wrote:
> That's the one.
> 
> Some price difference!
> 
> Richard.
> 
> At 21:52 16/11/2009, you wrote:
>> Hi Richard,
>>
>> any relation to this
>> http://www.bestsellers.ie/book-details.php?bookID=340928 at only 20.99
>>
>> regards
>>
>> Tony
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 9:31 AM, Richard Mills  
>> wrote:
>>
>> > For those who enjoy combining their birding with other aspects of 
>> nature,
>> > there is a superb new book just out:
>> > The wildlfowers of Cork City and County, by Tony O'Mahony, published 
>> by the
>> > Collins Press at €29.99
>> >
>> > Richard.
>> >
> 

-- 
Barry O'Mahony
Cork, Ireland
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
From: Mike O'Keeffe <okeeffeml AT EIRCOM.NET>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 23:25:38 -0000
Hi,

Its great to see an open ID discussion on the IBN!  Thanks Derek for 
shedding more light on this bird and helping to clarify some of the points 
apparent from the photos.  I think Lee's point about the differing 
appearance between adults and juvenile/1st winters is interesting.  I have 
been thrawling through a great selection of GWG photos on the web and that 
very point occurred to me as I scanned the images.  In particular I was 
struck by how distinctly beady-eyed most adult birds look but many immatures 
look rather larger eyed and I wouldnt just put that down to perception of 
the eye size against white or dark feathering.  Could something like that be 
due to the quality and density of feathering on the heads of adult birds 
compared to younger birds - sort of like the excessive folds of skin on the 
faces of some dog breeds that result in squinty eyes.  Pure speculation.

One feature that seems consistent in all the shots I have seen so far 
however is that GWG is basically round headed while the head shape of the 
Sligo bird as confirmed by Derek is not right and in fact in many shots is 
quite square looking, rather like Glaucous Gull.

Mainly playing the odds I think this is most likely a Glaucous X Herring 
hybrid.  I find it hard to imagine such a uniform mid-toned set of primaries 
and tertials being created by any other cross with the exception of a West 
Coast mixed bag of tricks.  What does it take to create a mid-toned pigement 
on a set of primaries?  I am guessing there are basically two scenarios but 
I stand open to correction.  Scenario one is that both parents have roughly 
the same mid-tone primaries to begin with so the young ends up with the same 
eg. pure GWG X GWG or GWG X Kumliens cross or perhaps at a stretch GWG X 
Thayers cross.  The other scenario is two birds from the opposite end of the 
spectrum ie. Glaucous X Herring or Iceland X Herring or some other 
combination of white-winged and black-winged gull get it on and produce 
something "in between" in tone.

As far as I know the proven hydridising of Iceland Gull with another species 
is almost unheard of (even if Kumlien's may once have arisen from Iceland 
hydridising with Thayer's as one theory suggests).  So if the theory that 
these mid-toned primaries arise from one of these two sources is correct the 
most likely parentage of this bird would surely have to be either pure GWG X 
GWG or a Glaucous X Herring hybird.  I favour the latter based on the 
evidence presented so far that seems to rule out pure GWG.  The other 
possibility of course is that this bird is from the West Coast of the USA 
and is genetically such as mixed bag as to make it pointless and impossible 
to guess at its parentage.

What's the chances Killian or Pat might share their thoughts here?

Regards

Mike


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Phillips" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out


In terms of structure, how is this for a match!
http://www.pbase.com/jpkln/image/40310381

Eye placement.bill. tertail step and wing lenght all look very similar.
Subject: Re: County Cork botany book
From: Tony Kavanagh <tonyjkavanagh AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 22:55:56 +0000
sure is saw it for 45.00 on another site

On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 10:20 PM, Richard Mills wrote:

> That's the one.
>
> Some price difference!
>
> Richard.
>
>
> At 21:52 16/11/2009, you wrote:
>
>> Hi Richard,
>>
>> any relation to this
>> http://www.bestsellers.ie/book-details.php?bookID=340928 at only 20.99
>>
>> regards
>>
>> Tony
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 9:31 AM, Richard Mills 
>> wrote:
>>
>> > For those who enjoy combining their birding with other aspects of
>> nature,
>> > there is a superb new book just out:
>> > The wildlfowers of Cork City and County, by Tony O'Mahony, published by
>> the
>> > Collins Press at €29.99
>> >
>> > Richard.
>> >
>>
>
Subject: Re: County Cork botany book
From: Richard Mills <birdpics AT NEWSGUY.COM>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 22:20:23 +0000
That's the one.

Some price difference!

Richard.

At 21:52 16/11/2009, you wrote:
>Hi Richard,
>
>any relation to this
>http://www.bestsellers.ie/book-details.php?bookID=340928 at only 20.99
>
>regards
>
>Tony
>
>On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 9:31 AM, Richard Mills  wrote:
>
> > For those who enjoy combining their birding with other aspects of nature,
> > there is a superb new book just out:
> > The wildlfowers of Cork City and County, by Tony O'Mahony, published by the
> > Collins Press at €29.99
> >
> > Richard.
> >
Subject: Re: County Cork botany book
From: Tony Kavanagh <tonyjkavanagh AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 21:52:07 +0000
Hi Richard,

any relation to this
http://www.bestsellers.ie/book-details.php?bookID=340928 at only 20.99

regards

Tony

On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 9:31 AM, Richard Mills  wrote:

> For those who enjoy combining their birding with other aspects of nature,
> there is a superb new book just out:
> The wildlfowers of Cork City and County, by Tony O'Mahony, published by the
> Collins Press at €29.99
>
> Richard.
>
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
From: Peter Phillips <pmphillips AT EIRCOM.NET>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 21:33:17 +0000
In terms of structure, how is this for a match! 
http://www.pbase.com/jpkln/image/40310381

Eye placement.bill. tertail step and wing lenght all look very similar.
Subject: 'Northern' Glaucous-winged Gulls
From: SUBSCRIBE IBN-L Lee G R Evans <LGREUK400 AT AOL.COM>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 16:23:14 EST
Harry
 
As promised. Glaucous-winged Gulls at the extreme north of the range differ 
 quite markedly from birds many of us are familiar with wintering in 
southern  North America in winter and Derek's bird and that which I saw in my 
county last  year may very well be juveniles from this population  
 



This is what Glaucous-winged Gulls  look like in Japan:
 
 
_http://vegae.hp.infoseek.co.jp/Glaw010210/Glaw0102101w.html_ 
(http://vegae.hp.infoseek.co.jp/Glaw010210/Glaw0102101w.html) 
 
_http://larus.hp.infoseek.co.jp/gl_w_1w/1w_glauw.html_ 
(http://larus.hp.infoseek.co.jp/gl_w_1w/1w_glauw.html) 
_http://vegae.hp.infoseek.co.jp/Gw1w010122S/Gw1w011_22KI.html_ 
(http://vegae.hp.infoseek.co.jp/Gw1w010122S/Gw1w011_22KI.html) 
_http://vegae.hp.infoseek.co.jp/Gw1w010407_2/Gw1w01_4_72.html_ 
(http://vegae.hp.infoseek.co.jp/Gw1w010407_2/Gw1w01_4_72.html) 
_http://vegae.hp.infoseek.co.jp/GlwG1w0103KI/GwG1w0103.html_ 
(http://vegae.hp.infoseek.co.jp/GlwG1w0103KI/GwG1w0103.html) 
_http://www23.tok2.com/home/jgull/020125/gw1w19_25.html_ 
(http://www23.tok2.com/home/jgull/020125/gw1w19_25.html) 
_http://www23.tok2.com/home/jgull/020205/GW.html_ 
(http://www23.tok2.com/home/jgull/020205/GW.html) 
_http://www23.tok2.com/home/jgull/020214/gw1wA.html_ 
(http://www23.tok2.com/home/jgull/020214/gw1wA.html) 
 
and this is what they look like in southeast  England !!
 
_http://peteralfreybirdingnotebook.blogspot.com/2009/04/210409-beddington.ht
ml_ 
(http://peteralfreybirdingnotebook.blogspot.com/2009/04/210409-beddington.html) 

_http://peteralfreybirdingnotebook.blogspot.com/2009/05/gull-again.html_ 
(http://peteralfreybirdingnotebook.blogspot.com/2009/05/gull-again.html) 
_http://peteralfreybirdingnotebook.blogspot.com/2009/05/gull-monster-strikes
-again.html_ 

(http://peteralfreybirdingnotebook.blogspot.com/2009/05/gull-monster-strikes-again.html) 

_http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=139630_ 
(http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=139630) 
_http://surfbirds.com/forum/showthread.php?p=13848#post13848_ 
(http://surfbirds.com/forum/showthread.php?p=13848#post13848) 
_http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.com/2009/04/arctic-gull-rears-its-ug
ly-head-again.html_ 

(http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.com/2009/04/arctic-gull-rears-its-ugly-head-again.html) 

_http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/londonbirders/messages_ 
(http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/londonbirders/messages) 
_http://steveblain.blogspot.com/2009/03/white-winged-nightmare.html_ 
(http://steveblain.blogspot.com/2009/03/white-winged-nightmare.html) 
_http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/londonbirders/photos/album/1836179525/pic/
list_ 

(http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/londonbirders/photos/album/1836179525/pic/list) 

_http://www.michaelmckee.co.uk/regionthumb.asp?Year=2009&Region=Berkshire&of
fset=24_ 

(http://www.michaelmckee.co.uk/regionthumb.asp?Year=2009&Region=Berkshire&offset=24) 

_http://www.michaelmckee.co.uk/regionthumb.asp?Year=2009&Region=Berkshire&of
fset=36_ 

(http://www.michaelmckee.co.uk/regionthumb.asp?Year=2009&Region=Berkshire&offset=36) 

_http://www.elbf.co.uk/gallery/thumbnails/2009/birdphotos2009f.htm_ 
(http://www.elbf.co.uk/gallery/thumbnails/2009/birdphotos2009f.htm) 
 
This latter bird I have tentatively written off as a 'hybrid' but am I  
doing it an injustice? Maybe this is what juvenile GWG look like
 
Best wishes
 









Lee G R Evans
British Birding Association
UK400 Club,  Rare Birds Magazine, Ornithological Consultant and 
Conservationist
Discussion  Forum/Email Group: _http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UK400Club/_ 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UK400Club/) 
Rare  Bird Alert: 
_http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RareBirdAlertforBritainandIreland_UK400ClubBBA/_ 

(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RareBirdAlertforBritainandIreland_UK400ClubBBA/) 

Email  Address: LGREUK400 AT aol.com
Website Address: _www.uk400clubonline.co.uk_ 
(http://www.uk400clubonline.co.uk/) 
Related  Blog Sites: _http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.com/_ 
(http://uk400clubrarebirdalert.blogspot.com/) _  
http://rarebirdsinthewesternpalearctic.blogspot.com/ 
http://birdingamersham.blogspot.com/_ 

(http://birdingamersham.blogspot.com/) _ 
http://birdingtringreservoirs.blogspot.com/_ 

(http://birdingtringreservoirs.blogspot.com/) 
_http://calvertbirding.blogspot.com/_ (http://calvertbirding.blogspot.com/) 
_http://hertfordshirebirding.blogspot.com/_ 
(http://hertfordshirebirding.blogspot.com/) 
_http://buckinghamshirebirding.blogspot.com/_ 
(http://buckinghamshirebirding.blogspot.com/) 
_http://birdreportexchange.blogspot.com/_ 
(http://birdreportexchange.blogspot.com/) 

Chaffinch  House
8 Sandycroft Road
Little  Chalfont
Amersham
Buckinghamshire
England
HP6 6QL

Telephones:  01494 763010 and 01494 581157
Mobile/Text Alerts: 07881 906629

(Lee  Evans Enterprises incorporate documentation of rare bird occurrences 
in Britain  & Ireland and elsewhere in the Western Palearctic and in North 
America; Rare  Bird Information and Rare Bird Alerts; Rare Birds Magazine and 
other related  publications; Bird Tours for  Birders)
Subject: Re: Glaucous winged Gull
From: SUBSCRIBE IBN-L Lee G R Evans <LGREUK400 AT AOL.COM>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 16:13:04 EST
Harry
 
The Sligo bird reminds me of the juvenile gull that I saw and was  
photographed at Queen Mother Reservoir, Beddington Sewage Farm, Calvert Lakes 
and 

Stewartby Lake earlier this year. Like you, I considered this bird a  
'hybrid' (parentage unknown) but on soliciting expert opinion from the Western 

Seaboard, I was told that this was well within the variation of Glaucous-winged 

 Gull and could very well be one. I was amazed at just how small this bird 
was  and how round-headed it was making me think more of Iceland Gull. Where 
we are  going wrong is that these GWG may well in fact relate to birds of 
more  northerly origin rather than those which generally occur along the 
Californian  coast eg, those which occur Japan in winter.
 
I shall send you a few respective links in a moment
 
I do believe however that it would be folly to dismiss this bird so  easily
 
Kind regards
 
Lee
Subject: Re: Glaucous winged Gull
From: Harry Hussey <hhussey3 AT YAHOO.COM>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 12:52:39 -0800
Hi Lee,
    While I concede that juvenile/1st-winter Glaucous-winged Gulls may differ 
somewhat in terms of structure from older birds...after all, perceptable 
structural differences between juveniles and adults are well known in various 
groups, such as raptors...what I do find harder to believe is that adult and 
subadult GWGU should all impart a relatively consistent structure, yet 
juv/1st-winters would be variable, with some resembling older birds in this 
respect, and others looking quite different. 

    Given the known ability of GWGU to hybridise with various other species 
(off the top of my head, Western, American Herring, Glaucous and, I think, 
Slaty-backed?), not to mention the fact that a hybrid between any two taxa has 
the potential to bear at least a passing resemblance to another taxon entirely, 
I should very much doubt, interesting though this bird may be, that it would be 
possible to secure a firm identification as GWGU...in fact, if this is a 
hybrid, then we may never know for certain what the parents were, with any 
proposed combination representing educated guesswork, at best. 

     I sent the pics to a friend of mine in the US, though I concede that he 
doesn't live on the west coast, and here is what he had to say. 

 
'Definitely not GWGU. Not sure what it is, but HERG appears to be involved 
(caveat: I know little about Palearctic taxa and am ignoring the large white 
headed gulls found there), and the paleness of the uppreparts and primaries 
would immediately make me think of Nelson's. Would need more analysis before 
being willing to get serious about it, though...' 

 
 I would be in rough agreement with him, though admittedly I came at this from 
a relatively 'weak' position of never having seen GWGU or any hybrid involving 
GWGU genetic input. Still, it forced me to read the literature, and, for the 
record, when I first saw the pics, after being sent them by someone who said it 
wasn't a GWGU, my first impression of the bird was that it was striking, and I 
needed to check the literature before I was convinced that it wasn't a 
Glaucous-winged after all. 

                                                    Regards,
                                                          Harry

--- On Mon, 16/11/09, SUBSCRIBE IBN-L Lee G R Evans  wrote:


From: SUBSCRIBE IBN-L Lee G R Evans 
Subject: Re: Glaucous winged Gull
To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
Date: Monday, 16 November, 2009, 19:51


Rick

Although what you say seems very apparent with adults or near-adults, these 
same features do not seem to be consistent with juveniles. In fact, 
juveniles  appear to be highly variable and this is perhaps why we are not 
correctly  identifying/assessing them on this side of the Atlantic. I also find 
it 

hard to  believe that all of these juveniles are hybrids, as we all keep 
assigning them  to.

There is still very much to be learnt about the GWG, Thayer's, Kumlien's  
and Iceland Gull clades and their respective relationships with the 
northernmost  forms of North American Herring Gull. There is nothing to suggest 
that 

juvenile  GWG is not as variable as juvenile kumlieni or thayeri and if so, 
the Sligo bird  could very well be a Glaucous-winged Gull.

Best wishes

Lee
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
From: richard mundy <ruckrick AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:39:01 +0000
Sorry Derek for calling you Charles!

Rick

On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 8:28 PM, derek charles 
wrote: 


> Hello Rick/Lee,
>
> thanks for a couple of well considered posts.
>
>
>
> The bird was slightly larger than the argenteus Herrings (no argantatus
> seen).But not massively so. It didn't give any impression of Glaucous at
> all. On the water perhaps because it was sitting higher in the water? it
> looked considerably bigger that the Herrings.
>
>
>
> I think we can probably rule out any GBBG involvement.
>
>
>
> Glaucous must be considered. Ive seen a fair few presumed Glaucous x
> Herring hybrids the past 4/5 years. The small size would not rule out
> Glaucous involvement as i have seen birds very Herring like with maybe only
> one or two pro Glaucous features. Ive also seen birds very Glaucous like
> with one or two pro Herring features.
>
>
>
> I have also considered hybrids from the Thayer/Iceland/Kumliens complex and
> while a possibility i would think any of that group paired with an American
> Herring Gull would have a dark tailband as all four have dark to very dark
> tailbands in first winter. The Sligo bird had a pale brown tailband. I could
> be wrong of course.
>
>
>
> What a Glaucous Winged x Thayers would look like is another matter.
>
>
>
> Derek
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:07:49 +0000
> > From: ruckrick AT GMAIL.COM
> > Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
> > To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
> >
> > I just noticed that you mention the funny walk Derek - very interesting!
> >
> > I've had another look at the photos and I'd agree with Mike that the eye
> > position looks better on the newer ones, and I guess the small high eye
> is
> > going to be a lot more conspicuous on a white head than on a brown one,
> but
> > I still don't think it looks right really. I would also agree with Mike
> that
> > the overall structure and long wings don't look right and I would add
> that I
> > think the bill shape is really not right at all - but of course these
> things
> > are very hard to judge from photos.
> >
> > Is the bird very large? The talk of Glauc and GBB hybrids would imply
> that
> > it is but it doesn't really look to be from the pics, in fact it looks
> > rather small and slim and elegant. Has a Herring complex X Iceland
> complex
> > hybrid been considered?
> >
> > Rick
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 8:12 AM, derek charles <
> derek.charles AT hotmail.com>wrote:
> >
> > > Hello Mike,
> > >
> > > I seen the Nimmos bird six or seven times over two winters (it was a
> 2ndw
> > > and 3rdw) and the Sligo bird is completely different structurally. It
> also
> > > had a very unique way of walking very up right, different to any
> Herring or
> > > Glaucous i have seen. It was a very aggressive bird which i know counts
> for
> > > nothing but it completely dominated all the Herrings present and even
> had a
> > > go at a Great Black Backed an encounter which it lost!
> > >
> > > The Nimmos bird was much smaller and was often reported by
> un-suspecting
> > > visitors as a Kumliens Gull.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > derek
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 20:32:26 +0000
> > > > From: okeeffeml AT EIRCOM.NET
> > > > Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
> > > > To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
> > > >
> > > > All,
> > > >
> > > > The bird I was thinking of is featured on the March 2005 page on
> > > > birdsireland.com. Plumage wise very different but structurally
> similar I
> > > > think.
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> http://www.birdsireland.com/pages/rare_bird_news/2005/march_photos.html
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Ronan McLaughlin" 
> > > > To: 
> > > > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 8:00 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Gentlemen,
> > > > >
> > > > > If anyone's interested I think I have shots of the bird that Mike
> is
> > > > > taking about, however I think its a third winter type which may or
> may
> > > not
> > > > > be of help when comparing with a first winter. If anyone wants them
> > > please
> > > > > drop me a line. Excellent shots Derek, and certainly an interesting
> > > bird.
> > > > >
> > > > > regards
> > > > >
> > > > > Rónán
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Mike O'Keeffe" 
> > > > > To: 
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 12:11 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> Mícheál,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Your posting made it on to the IBN alright. Only seeing the shots
> this
> > > > >> morning and they are brilliant - well done!
> > > > >>
> > > > >> It does appear to me rather too Herring Gull like in overall
> > > appearance,
> > > > >> not the compact, bulky, short winged look with that classic beady
> eye
> > > > >> positioned high and far back in the head of classic GWG. Other
> than
> > > the
> > > > >> structural impressions I have no real comments. I have no first
> hand
> > > > >> experience of those messy West Coast integrades and I find
> discussions
> > > re
> > > > >> same on ID Frontiers hard to read. Have you guys had any opinions
> from
> > > > >> the USA?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> There is something vaguely familiar about the bird - it reminds me
> of
> > > a
> > > > >> hybrid that was at Nimmo's some years ago. Looking at shots of
> > > supposed
> > > > >> integrade Glaucous-winged X Herring on the net the primaries and
> > > tertials
> > > > >> often appear darker in those birds so I wonder could it just be a
> well
> > > > >> marked Glaucous X Herring or a Glaucous X Great Black-backed
> hybrid?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Nice find Derek!
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Regards
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Mike
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > > >> From: "Mícheál Casey" 
> > > > >> To: 
> > > > >> Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 11:20 AM
> > > > >> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Hi Edward,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Expert opinions received so far are on the side of it being a
> hybrid,
> > > > >> possibly Glaucous-winged x Herring Gull.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Nobody in Sligo, including the finder, Derek Charles, put the bird
> out
> > > as
> > > > >> anything other than a possible Glaucous-winged Gull.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The note on Irishbirding.com summarises current opinion fairly
> well
> > > "1st
> > > > >> Winter type bird showing characteristics of a Glaucous-winged
> Gull.
> > > > >> Drumcliff Bay. Hybrid not ruled out."
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I posted a link to some images of the bird last night on the
> IBN-L,
> > > which
> > > > >> doesn't seem to have gone through to the list.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Trying again here - images are posted at
> > > > >> http://www.sligobirding.com/November2009Gallery.html
> > > > >>
> > > > >> It is certainly a very striking looking bird, quite unlike any
> other
> > > gull
> > > > >> we have seen in Sligo. The spectacular stranding of tonnes of
> starfish
> > > > >> at Lissadell has attracted about 1,000 gulls showing up in a
> > > concentrated
> > > > >> area, which yesterday included 1 Kumliens Gull, a first winter
> > > > >> Ring-billed Gull, two Iceland Gulls and this bird.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Regards,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Mícheál
> > > > >>
> > > > >> PS Just spotted that I accidentally sent last night's email from
> my
> > > new
> > > > >> email address which is not registered for IBN-L mail - my
> apologies
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Begin forwarded message:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> From: Mícheál Casey 
> > > > >>> Date: 14 November 2009 22:29:35 GMT
> > > > >>> To: Irish Bird Network 
> > > > >>> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous-winged Gull Sligo
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Hi John, and all,
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Photos of the bird in question are now up on the November Gallery
> > > page
> > > > >>> of the BirdWatch Sligo website.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> See http://www.sligobirding.com/November2009Gallery.html
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Comments welcome.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Go on, we can take it!
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On 15 Nov 2009, at 10:45, Edward Carty wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> All,
> > > > >>> Can anyone shed light on this Gull at Lissadell Sligo,Birdguides
> > > > >>> again had
> > > > >>> something to share this morning and after the !(notable) for our
> > > First
> > > > >>> Red
> > > > >>> flanked Bluetail this week instead of the !!!(mega) they had
> > > > >>> X(correction) and
> > > > >>> just now an unhappy face(negative news) for the Gull........Has
> the
> > > bird
> > > > >>> been
> > > > >>> confirmed as a Glaucous winged Gull.......?
> > > > >>> Not that I will be travelling of course...........!
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > Have more than one Hotmail account? Link them together to easily access
> > > both
> > > http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/186394591/direct/01/
> > >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Got more than one Hotmail account? Save time by linking them together
>  http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/186394591/direct/01/
>
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
From: derek charles <derek.charles AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:28:06 +0000
Hello Rick/Lee,

thanks for a couple of well considered posts.

 

The bird was slightly larger than the argenteus Herrings (no argantatus 
seen).But not massively so. It didn't give any impression of Glaucous at all. 
On the water perhaps because it was sitting higher in the water? it looked 
considerably bigger that the Herrings. 


 

I think we can probably rule out any GBBG involvement.

 

Glaucous must be considered. Ive seen a fair few presumed Glaucous x Herring 
hybrids the past 4/5 years. The small size would not rule out Glaucous 
involvement as i have seen birds very Herring like with maybe only one or two 
pro Glaucous features. Ive also seen birds very Glaucous like with one or two 
pro Herring features. 


 

I have also considered hybrids from the Thayer/Iceland/Kumliens complex and 
while a possibility i would think any of that group paired with an American 
Herring Gull would have a dark tailband as all four have dark to very dark 
tailbands in first winter. The Sligo bird had a pale brown tailband. I could be 
wrong of course. 


 

What a Glaucous Winged x Thayers would look like is another matter.

 

Derek

 

 


 
> Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:07:49 +0000
> From: ruckrick AT GMAIL.COM
> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
> To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
> 
> I just noticed that you mention the funny walk Derek - very interesting!
> 
> I've had another look at the photos and I'd agree with Mike that the eye
> position looks better on the newer ones, and I guess the small high eye is
> going to be a lot more conspicuous on a white head than on a brown one, but
> I still don't think it looks right really. I would also agree with Mike that
> the overall structure and long wings don't look right and I would add that I
> think the bill shape is really not right at all - but of course these things
> are very hard to judge from photos.
> 
> Is the bird very large? The talk of Glauc and GBB hybrids would imply that
> it is but it doesn't really look to be from the pics, in fact it looks
> rather small and slim and elegant. Has a Herring complex X Iceland complex
> hybrid been considered?
> 
> Rick
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 8:12 AM, derek charles 
wrote: 

> 
> > Hello Mike,
> >
> > I seen the Nimmos bird six or seven times over two winters (it was a 2ndw
> > and 3rdw) and the Sligo bird is completely different structurally. It also
> > had a very unique way of walking very up right, different to any Herring or
> > Glaucous i have seen. It was a very aggressive bird which i know counts for
> > nothing but it completely dominated all the Herrings present and even had a
> > go at a Great Black Backed an encounter which it lost!
> >
> > The Nimmos bird was much smaller and was often reported by un-suspecting
> > visitors as a Kumliens Gull.
> >
> >
> >
> > derek
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 20:32:26 +0000
> > > From: okeeffeml AT EIRCOM.NET
> > > Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
> > > To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
> > >
> > > All,
> > >
> > > The bird I was thinking of is featured on the March 2005 page on
> > > birdsireland.com. Plumage wise very different but structurally similar I
> > > think.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > http://www.birdsireland.com/pages/rare_bird_news/2005/march_photos.html
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Ronan McLaughlin" 
> > > To: 
> > > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 8:00 PM
> > > Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
> > >
> > >
> > > > Gentlemen,
> > > >
> > > > If anyone's interested I think I have shots of the bird that Mike is
> > > > taking about, however I think its a third winter type which may or may
> > not
> > > > be of help when comparing with a first winter. If anyone wants them
> > please
> > > > drop me a line. Excellent shots Derek, and certainly an interesting
> > bird.
> > > >
> > > > regards
> > > >
> > > > Rónán
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Mike O'Keeffe" 
> > > > To: 
> > > > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 12:11 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> Mícheál,
> > > >>
> > > >> Your posting made it on to the IBN alright. Only seeing the shots this
> > > >> morning and they are brilliant - well done!
> > > >>
> > > >> It does appear to me rather too Herring Gull like in overall
> > appearance,
> > > >> not the compact, bulky, short winged look with that classic beady eye
> > > >> positioned high and far back in the head of classic GWG. Other than
> > the
> > > >> structural impressions I have no real comments. I have no first hand
> > > >> experience of those messy West Coast integrades and I find discussions
> > re
> > > >> same on ID Frontiers hard to read. Have you guys had any opinions from
> > > >> the USA?
> > > >>
> > > >> There is something vaguely familiar about the bird - it reminds me of
> > a
> > > >> hybrid that was at Nimmo's some years ago. Looking at shots of
> > supposed
> > > >> integrade Glaucous-winged X Herring on the net the primaries and
> > tertials
> > > >> often appear darker in those birds so I wonder could it just be a well
> > > >> marked Glaucous X Herring or a Glaucous X Great Black-backed hybrid?
> > > >>
> > > >> Nice find Derek!
> > > >>
> > > >> Regards
> > > >>
> > > >> Mike
> > > >>
> > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> From: "Mícheál Casey" 
> > > >> To: 
> > > >> Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 11:20 AM
> > > >> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Hi Edward,
> > > >>
> > > >> Expert opinions received so far are on the side of it being a hybrid,
> > > >> possibly Glaucous-winged x Herring Gull.
> > > >>
> > > >> Nobody in Sligo, including the finder, Derek Charles, put the bird out
> > as
> > > >> anything other than a possible Glaucous-winged Gull.
> > > >>
> > > >> The note on Irishbirding.com summarises current opinion fairly well
> > "1st
> > > >> Winter type bird showing characteristics of a Glaucous-winged Gull.
> > > >> Drumcliff Bay. Hybrid not ruled out."
> > > >>
> > > >> I posted a link to some images of the bird last night on the IBN-L,
> > which
> > > >> doesn't seem to have gone through to the list.
> > > >>
> > > >> Trying again here - images are posted at
> > > >> http://www.sligobirding.com/November2009Gallery.html
> > > >>
> > > >> It is certainly a very striking looking bird, quite unlike any other
> > gull
> > > >> we have seen in Sligo. The spectacular stranding of tonnes of starfish
> > > >> at Lissadell has attracted about 1,000 gulls showing up in a
> > concentrated
> > > >> area, which yesterday included 1 Kumliens Gull, a first winter
> > > >> Ring-billed Gull, two Iceland Gulls and this bird.
> > > >>
> > > >> Regards,
> > > >>
> > > >> Mícheál
> > > >>
> > > >> PS Just spotted that I accidentally sent last night's email from my
> > new
> > > >> email address which is not registered for IBN-L mail - my apologies
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Begin forwarded message:
> > > >>
> > > >>> From: Mícheál Casey 
> > > >>> Date: 14 November 2009 22:29:35 GMT
> > > >>> To: Irish Bird Network 
> > > >>> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous-winged Gull Sligo
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Hi John, and all,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Photos of the bird in question are now up on the November Gallery
> > page
> > > >>> of the BirdWatch Sligo website.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> See http://www.sligobirding.com/November2009Gallery.html
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Comments welcome.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Go on, we can take it!
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On 15 Nov 2009, at 10:45, Edward Carty wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> All,
> > > >>> Can anyone shed light on this Gull at Lissadell Sligo,Birdguides
> > > >>> again had
> > > >>> something to share this morning and after the !(notable) for our
> > First
> > > >>> Red
> > > >>> flanked Bluetail this week instead of the !!!(mega) they had
> > > >>> X(correction) and
> > > >>> just now an unhappy face(negative news) for the Gull........Has the
> > bird
> > > >>> been
> > > >>> confirmed as a Glaucous winged Gull.......?
> > > >>> Not that I will be travelling of course...........!
> > > >>
> > > >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Have more than one Hotmail account? Link them together to easily access
> > both
> > http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/186394591/direct/01/
> >
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Got more than one Hotmail account? Save time by linking them together
 http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/186394591/direct/01/
Subject: Re: Glaucous winged Gull
From: richard mundy <ruckrick AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:22:27 +0000
Fair point Lee, I agree it is not safe to assume that features such as bill
size and shape, apparent eye position and even wing-length and overall
structure do not or cannot change with age. I did say that my comments
related to adults but you're right, I shouldn't have been dismissive of it
being a GWG on that basis.

I think it is very interesting that Charles mentions its posture and the way
it walks, this I found to be highly distinctive on GWG (adults that is!), as
Charles says, quite unlike any of our European gulls - almost duck-like.

Rick

On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 7:51 PM, SUBSCRIBE IBN-L Lee G R Evans <
LGREUK400 AT aol.com> wrote:

> Rick
>
> Although what you say seems very apparent with adults or near-adults, these
>  same features do not seem to be consistent with juveniles. In fact,
> juveniles  appear to be highly variable and this is perhaps why we are not
> correctly  identifying/assessing them on this side of the Atlantic. I also
> find it
> hard to  believe that all of these juveniles are hybrids, as we all keep
> assigning them  to.
>
> There is still very much to be learnt about the GWG, Thayer's, Kumlien's
> and Iceland Gull clades and their respective relationships with the
> northernmost  forms of North American Herring Gull. There is nothing to
> suggest that
> juvenile  GWG is not as variable as juvenile kumlieni or thayeri and if so,
> the Sligo bird  could very well be a Glaucous-winged Gull.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Lee
>
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
From: richard mundy <ruckrick AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:07:49 +0000
I just noticed that you mention the funny walk Derek - very interesting!

I've had another look at the photos and I'd agree with Mike that the eye
position looks better on the newer ones, and I guess the small high eye is
going to be a lot more conspicuous on a white head than on a brown one, but
I still don't think it looks right really. I would also agree with Mike that
the overall structure and long wings don't look right and I would add that I
think the bill shape is really not right at all - but of course these things
are very hard to judge from photos.

Is the bird very large? The talk of Glauc and GBB hybrids would imply that
it is but it doesn't really look to be from the pics, in fact it looks
rather small and slim and elegant. Has a Herring complex X Iceland complex
hybrid been considered?

Rick



On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 8:12 AM, derek charles 
wrote: 


> Hello Mike,
>
> I seen the Nimmos bird six or seven times over two winters (it was a 2ndw
> and 3rdw) and the Sligo bird is completely different structurally. It also
> had a very unique way of walking very up right, different to any Herring or
> Glaucous i have seen. It was a very aggressive bird which i know counts for
> nothing but it completely dominated all the Herrings present and even had a
> go at a Great Black Backed an encounter which it lost!
>
> The Nimmos bird was much smaller and was often reported by un-suspecting
> visitors as a Kumliens Gull.
>
>
>
> derek
>
>
>
>
> > Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 20:32:26 +0000
> > From: okeeffeml AT EIRCOM.NET
> > Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
> > To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
> >
> > All,
> >
> > The bird I was thinking of is featured on the March 2005 page on
> > birdsireland.com. Plumage wise very different but structurally similar I
> > think.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > http://www.birdsireland.com/pages/rare_bird_news/2005/march_photos.html
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ronan McLaughlin" 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 8:00 PM
> > Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
> >
> >
> > > Gentlemen,
> > >
> > > If anyone's interested I think I have shots of the bird that Mike is
> > > taking about, however I think its a third winter type which may or may
> not
> > > be of help when comparing with a first winter. If anyone wants them
> please
> > > drop me a line. Excellent shots Derek, and certainly an interesting
> bird.
> > >
> > > regards
> > >
> > > Rónán
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Mike O'Keeffe" 
> > > To: 
> > > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 12:11 PM
> > > Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
> > >
> > >
> > >> Mícheál,
> > >>
> > >> Your posting made it on to the IBN alright. Only seeing the shots this
> > >> morning and they are brilliant - well done!
> > >>
> > >> It does appear to me rather too Herring Gull like in overall
> appearance,
> > >> not the compact, bulky, short winged look with that classic beady eye
> > >> positioned high and far back in the head of classic GWG. Other than
> the
> > >> structural impressions I have no real comments. I have no first hand
> > >> experience of those messy West Coast integrades and I find discussions
> re
> > >> same on ID Frontiers hard to read. Have you guys had any opinions from
> > >> the USA?
> > >>
> > >> There is something vaguely familiar about the bird - it reminds me of
> a
> > >> hybrid that was at Nimmo's some years ago. Looking at shots of
> supposed
> > >> integrade Glaucous-winged X Herring on the net the primaries and
> tertials
> > >> often appear darker in those birds so I wonder could it just be a well
> > >> marked Glaucous X Herring or a Glaucous X Great Black-backed hybrid?
> > >>
> > >> Nice find Derek!
> > >>
> > >> Regards
> > >>
> > >> Mike
> > >>
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> From: "Mícheál Casey" 
> > >> To: 
> > >> Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 11:20 AM
> > >> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Hi Edward,
> > >>
> > >> Expert opinions received so far are on the side of it being a hybrid,
> > >> possibly Glaucous-winged x Herring Gull.
> > >>
> > >> Nobody in Sligo, including the finder, Derek Charles, put the bird out
> as
> > >> anything other than a possible Glaucous-winged Gull.
> > >>
> > >> The note on Irishbirding.com summarises current opinion fairly well
> "1st
> > >> Winter type bird showing characteristics of a Glaucous-winged Gull.
> > >> Drumcliff Bay. Hybrid not ruled out."
> > >>
> > >> I posted a link to some images of the bird last night on the IBN-L,
> which
> > >> doesn't seem to have gone through to the list.
> > >>
> > >> Trying again here - images are posted at
> > >> http://www.sligobirding.com/November2009Gallery.html
> > >>
> > >> It is certainly a very striking looking bird, quite unlike any other
> gull
> > >> we have seen in Sligo. The spectacular stranding of tonnes of starfish
> > >> at Lissadell has attracted about 1,000 gulls showing up in a
> concentrated
> > >> area, which yesterday included 1 Kumliens Gull, a first winter
> > >> Ring-billed Gull, two Iceland Gulls and this bird.
> > >>
> > >> Regards,
> > >>
> > >> Mícheál
> > >>
> > >> PS Just spotted that I accidentally sent last night's email from my
> new
> > >> email address which is not registered for IBN-L mail - my apologies
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Begin forwarded message:
> > >>
> > >>> From: Mícheál Casey 
> > >>> Date: 14 November 2009 22:29:35 GMT
> > >>> To: Irish Bird Network 
> > >>> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous-winged Gull Sligo
> > >>>
> > >>> Hi John, and all,
> > >>>
> > >>> Photos of the bird in question are now up on the November Gallery
> page
> > >>> of the BirdWatch Sligo website.
> > >>>
> > >>> See http://www.sligobirding.com/November2009Gallery.html
> > >>>
> > >>> Comments welcome.
> > >>>
> > >>> Go on, we can take it!
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On 15 Nov 2009, at 10:45, Edward Carty wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> All,
> > >>> Can anyone shed light on this Gull at Lissadell Sligo,Birdguides
> > >>> again had
> > >>> something to share this morning and after the !(notable) for our
> First
> > >>> Red
> > >>> flanked Bluetail this week instead of the !!!(mega) they had
> > >>> X(correction) and
> > >>> just now an unhappy face(negative news) for the Gull........Has the
> bird
> > >>> been
> > >>> confirmed as a Glaucous winged Gull.......?
> > >>> Not that I will be travelling of course...........!
> > >>
> > >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Have more than one Hotmail account? Link them together to easily access
> both
>  http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/186394591/direct/01/
>
Subject: Re: Glaucous winged Gull
From: SUBSCRIBE IBN-L Lee G R Evans <LGREUK400 AT AOL.COM>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:51:17 EST
Rick
 
Although what you say seems very apparent with adults or near-adults, these 
 same features do not seem to be consistent with juveniles. In fact, 
juveniles  appear to be highly variable and this is perhaps why we are not 
correctly identifying/assessing them on this side of the Atlantic. I also find 
it 

hard to  believe that all of these juveniles are hybrids, as we all keep 
assigning them  to.
 
There is still very much to be learnt about the GWG, Thayer's, Kumlien's  
and Iceland Gull clades and their respective relationships with the 
northernmost forms of North American Herring Gull. There is nothing to suggest 
that 

juvenile  GWG is not as variable as juvenile kumlieni or thayeri and if so, 
the Sligo bird  could very well be a Glaucous-winged Gull.
 
Best wishes
 
Lee
Subject: Re: Glaucous winged Gull
From: richard mundy <ruckrick AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 19:25:37 +0000
I was in Vancouver last autumn for a few weeks so GWG is relatively fresh in
my mind. Most of the birds I saw were adults or near-adults and I didn't see
birds in this plumage so just a few comments on structure. I think we are
all well used to structural features on large gulls being frustratingly
subtle, variable and difficult to judge but I found that most of the
published features on GWG structure are really very obvious in the field.
The bill is very deep and very blob-ended, the eys is tiny and very high on
the face, the overall body shape is truncated and rounded with short wing
projection and an obvious tertial step. I also noted that the legs of GWG
seem very short giving what is basically an ugly dumpy podgy mean-looking
gull a positively comical look when walking. I suppose what I am basically
saying is that GWG is extremely jizzy and sad to say I'm not getting any of
that from the (excellent) photos of the Sligo bird.

Rick Mundy


On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Derek Charles  wrote:

> Hello Peter/Eugene,
> no i don't think everyone is being to cautious.
> I think the following features are at odds with it being a pure GWG:
>
> Bill length and shape.
>
> Head Shape. GWG seems to show a round headed appearance unlike the angular
> head of the Sligo bird.
>
> Long Winged appearance which isn't helped by the long body, both at odds
> with the dumpy short winged appearance of GWG.
>
> I am sure you will get some of these features on individual birds but to
> have all of them on one bird leaves questions unanswered. Ive googled some
> photos which look close enough to the Sligo bird but do we know if they are
> pure birds?
>
> Plumage wise Glaucous Winged Gull is the best fit but i think all options
> should be considered for an out of range individual like this. I still think
> a hybrid GWG is best option probably with AHG (as others have suggested
> privately).
>
> Now if an American expert proclaims it is a pure Glaucous Winged that will
> create a bit of a scramble although i think that scenario is unlikely. I
> think for a Glaucous Winged Gull to get admitted to the Irish list it will
> need to be a classic individual which this one isn't.
>
> derek
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Irish Bird Network on behalf of Peter Phillips
> Sent: Mon 16/11/2009 14:11
> To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
> Subject: Re: Glaucous winged Gull
>
>
>
> Im no gull expert.............but it looks a lot like the 1cy GW Gulls in
> the link. Is
> there any features not consistant with GWGull? Is every one being very
> cautious. I think its one and if I am wrong Im prepared to eat Ed Cartys
> mobile
> phone..if he has'nt eaten it himself allready
>
> Peter
>
Subject: Re: Glaucous winged Gull
From: Mícheál Casey <michealjcasey AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 18:58:12 +0000
Hi Peter,

Gerard Scott saw it briefly (in flight) yesterday. Everyone is working today 
and it was absolutely pouring here at lunchtime. I don't think I have what it 
takes to be a real hard-bitten gullologist. 


Mícheál


On 16 Nov 2009, at 18:51, Peter Phillips wrote:

> Thanks for that Derek, it would be nice to see some really good shots of the 
> bird( not that your shots are not really good)!!. There looks to be a bit of 
> variability in size and shape of birds labeled as GWGull on the web but as 
you 

> say its impossible to rule out hybrids.Have also heard that the scaps where 
> not quite right for GWGull. Has it been seen since? I know gulls hybridise 
but 

> logic would suggest that AHG xGWGull would be much rarer  inthe wild and 
> even more unlikely to turn up as a vagrant than pure GWGull? And even harder 
> to prove or accept!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Peter
Subject: Re: Glaucous winged Gull
From: Peter Phillips <pmphillips AT EIRCOM.NET>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 18:51:13 +0000
Thanks for that Derek, it would be nice to see some really good shots of the 
bird( not that your shots are not really good)!!. There looks to be a bit of 
variability in size and shape of birds labeled as GWGull on the web but as you 
say its impossible to rule out hybrids.Have also heard that the scaps where 
not quite right for GWGull. Has it been seen since? I know gulls hybridise but 

logic would suggest that AHG xGWGull would be much rarer  inthe wild and 
even more unlikely to turn up as a vagrant than pure GWGull? And even harder 
to prove or accept!!!



Peter
Subject: Re: Glaucous winged Gull
From: Eamonn <eamonn AT COLLIERKITCHENS.IE>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:40:36 -0000
I suspect Mr. Bruce MacTavish would be yer only man for this one.
I assume he has seen the photos? Anybody know this?

BBBW 

-----Original Message-----
From: Irish Bird Network [mailto:IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE] On Behalf Of
Derek Charles
Sent: 16 November 2009 14:34
To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
Subject: Re: Glaucous winged Gull

Hello Peter/Eugene,
no i don't think everyone is being to cautious. 
I think the following features are at odds with it being a pure GWG:
 
Bill length and shape.
 
Head Shape. GWG seems to show a round headed appearance unlike the
angular head of the Sligo bird.
 
Long Winged appearance which isn't helped by the long body, both at odds
with the dumpy short winged appearance of GWG.
 
I am sure you will get some of these features on individual birds but to
have all of them on one bird leaves questions unanswered. Ive googled
some photos which look close enough to the Sligo bird but do we know if
they are pure birds?
 
Plumage wise Glaucous Winged Gull is the best fit but i think all
options should be considered for an out of range individual like this. I
still think a hybrid GWG is best option probably with AHG (as others
have suggested privately).
 
Now if an American expert proclaims it is a pure Glaucous Winged that
will create a bit of a scramble although i think that scenario is
unlikely. I think for a Glaucous Winged Gull to get admitted to the
Irish list it will need to be a classic individual which this one isn't.
 
derek
 
 
 

________________________________

From: Irish Bird Network on behalf of Peter Phillips
Sent: Mon 16/11/2009 14:11
To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
Subject: Re: Glaucous winged Gull



Im no gull expert.............but it looks a lot like the 1cy GW Gulls
in the link. Is
there any features not consistant with GWGull? Is every one being very
cautious. I think its one and if I am wrong Im prepared to eat Ed Cartys
mobile
phone..if he has'nt eaten it himself allready

Peter

##################################################################################### 

This e-mail message has been scanned for Viruses and Content and cleared 
by MailMarshal

#####################################################################################
Subject: Re: Glaucous winged Gull
From: Derek Charles <Derek AT METSTEEL.CO.UK>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:34:08 -0000
Hello Peter/Eugene,
no i don't think everyone is being to cautious. 
I think the following features are at odds with it being a pure GWG:
 
Bill length and shape.
 
Head Shape. GWG seems to show a round headed appearance unlike the angular head 
of the Sligo bird. 

 
Long Winged appearance which isn't helped by the long body, both at odds with 
the dumpy short winged appearance of GWG. 

 
I am sure you will get some of these features on individual birds but to have 
all of them on one bird leaves questions unanswered. Ive googled some photos 
which look close enough to the Sligo bird but do we know if they are pure 
birds? 

 
Plumage wise Glaucous Winged Gull is the best fit but i think all options 
should be considered for an out of range individual like this. I still think a 
hybrid GWG is best option probably with AHG (as others have suggested 
privately). 

 
Now if an American expert proclaims it is a pure Glaucous Winged that will 
create a bit of a scramble although i think that scenario is unlikely. I think 
for a Glaucous Winged Gull to get admitted to the Irish list it will need to be 
a classic individual which this one isn't. 

 
derek
 
 
 

________________________________

From: Irish Bird Network on behalf of Peter Phillips
Sent: Mon 16/11/2009 14:11
To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
Subject: Re: Glaucous winged Gull



Im no gull expert.............but it looks a lot like the 1cy GW Gulls in the 
link. Is 

there any features not consistant with GWGull? Is every one being very
cautious. I think its one and if I am wrong Im prepared to eat Ed Cartys mobile
phone..if he has'nt eaten it himself allready

Peter
Subject: Re: Glaucous winged Gull
From: Peter Phillips <pmphillips AT EIRCOM.NET>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:11:34 +0000
Im no gull expert.............but it looks a lot like the 1cy GW Gulls in the 
link. Is 

there any features not consistant with GWGull? Is every one being very 
cautious. I think its one and if I am wrong Im prepared to eat Ed Cartys mobile 

phone..if he has'nt eaten it himself allready

Peter
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
From: Mike O'Keeffe <okeeffeml AT EIRCOM.NET>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 11:54:25 -0000
Derek,

Thanks for this update.  Having seen the additional shots put up on the 
Sligo site I now see my initial impressions of its similarity to the Nimmo's 
bird were indeed quite wrong.  The eye-placement in the head even looks a 
bit better for Glaucous-winged in some of the newer shots posted but again I 
wonder at the overall elongated, relatively long-winged look of the bird. 
Could the head-shape, other structural features and demeanor be down to 
strong Glaucous Gull influence?  Anyways enough of my theorising I'd love to 
hear what feedback you get on this bird from those familiar with GWG and 
variants from the USA.  Please keep us posted and best of luck!

Regards

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "derek charles" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 8:12 AM
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out


Hello Mike,

I seen the Nimmos bird six or seven times over two winters (it was a 2ndw 
and 3rdw) and the Sligo bird is completely different structurally. It also 
had a very unique way of walking very up right, different to any Herring or 
Glaucous i have seen. It was a very aggressive bird which i know counts for 
nothing but it completely dominated all the Herrings present and even had a 
go at a Great Black Backed an encounter which it lost!

The Nimmos bird was much smaller and was often reported by un-suspecting 
visitors as a Kumliens Gull.



derek




> Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 20:32:26 +0000
> From: okeeffeml AT EIRCOM.NET
> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
> To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
>
> All,
>
> The bird I was thinking of is featured on the March 2005 page on
> birdsireland.com. Plumage wise very different but structurally similar I
> think.
>
> Regards
>
> Mike
>
> http://www.birdsireland.com/pages/rare_bird_news/2005/march_photos.html
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Ronan McLaughlin" 
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 8:00 PM
> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
>
>
> > Gentlemen,
> >
> > If anyone's interested I think I have shots of the bird that Mike is
> > taking about, however I think its a third winter type which may or may 
> > not
> > be of help when comparing with a first winter. If anyone wants them 
> > please
> > drop me a line. Excellent shots Derek, and certainly an interesting 
> > bird.
> >
> > regards
> >
> > Rónán
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Mike O'Keeffe" 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 12:11 PM
> > Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
> >
> >
> >> Mícheál,
> >>
> >> Your posting made it on to the IBN alright. Only seeing the shots this
> >> morning and they are brilliant - well done!
> >>
> >> It does appear to me rather too Herring Gull like in overall 
> >> appearance,
> >> not the compact, bulky, short winged look with that classic beady eye
> >> positioned high and far back in the head of classic GWG. Other than the
> >> structural impressions I have no real comments. I have no first hand
> >> experience of those messy West Coast integrades and I find discussions 
> >> re
> >> same on ID Frontiers hard to read. Have you guys had any opinions from
> >> the USA?
> >>
> >> There is something vaguely familiar about the bird - it reminds me of a
> >> hybrid that was at Nimmo's some years ago. Looking at shots of supposed
> >> integrade Glaucous-winged X Herring on the net the primaries and 
> >> tertials
> >> often appear darker in those birds so I wonder could it just be a well
> >> marked Glaucous X Herring or a Glaucous X Great Black-backed hybrid?
> >>
> >> Nice find Derek!
> >>
> >> Regards
> >>
> >> Mike
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> From: "Mícheál Casey" 
> >> To: 
> >> Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 11:20 AM
> >> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi Edward,
> >>
> >> Expert opinions received so far are on the side of it being a hybrid,
> >> possibly Glaucous-winged x Herring Gull.
> >>
> >> Nobody in Sligo, including the finder, Derek Charles, put the bird out 
> >> as
> >> anything other than a possible Glaucous-winged Gull.
> >>
> >> The note on Irishbirding.com summarises current opinion fairly well 
> >> "1st
> >> Winter type bird showing characteristics of a Glaucous-winged Gull.
> >> Drumcliff Bay. Hybrid not ruled out."
> >>
> >> I posted a link to some images of the bird last night on the IBN-L, 
> >> which
> >> doesn't seem to have gone through to the list.
> >>
> >> Trying again here - images are posted at
> >> http://www.sligobirding.com/November2009Gallery.html
> >>
> >> It is certainly a very striking looking bird, quite unlike any other 
> >> gull
> >> we have seen in Sligo. The spectacular stranding of tonnes of starfish
> >> at Lissadell has attracted about 1,000 gulls showing up in a 
> >> concentrated
> >> area, which yesterday included 1 Kumliens Gull, a first winter
> >> Ring-billed Gull, two Iceland Gulls and this bird.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Mícheál
> >>
> >> PS Just spotted that I accidentally sent last night's email from my new
> >> email address which is not registered for IBN-L mail - my apologies
> >>
> >>
> >> Begin forwarded message:
> >>
> >>> From: Mícheál Casey 
> >>> Date: 14 November 2009 22:29:35 GMT
> >>> To: Irish Bird Network 
> >>> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous-winged Gull Sligo
> >>>
> >>> Hi John, and all,
> >>>
> >>> Photos of the bird in question are now up on the November Gallery page
> >>> of the BirdWatch Sligo website.
> >>>
> >>> See http://www.sligobirding.com/November2009Gallery.html
> >>>
> >>> Comments welcome.
> >>>
> >>> Go on, we can take it!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 15 Nov 2009, at 10:45, Edward Carty wrote:
> >>
> >>> All,
> >>> Can anyone shed light on this Gull at Lissadell Sligo,Birdguides
> >>> again had
> >>> something to share this morning and after the !(notable) for our First
> >>> Red
> >>> flanked Bluetail this week instead of the !!!(mega) they had
> >>> X(correction) and
> >>> just now an unhappy face(negative news) for the Gull........Has the 
> >>> bird
> >>> been
> >>> confirmed as a Glaucous winged Gull.......?
> >>> Not that I will be travelling of course...........!
> >>
> >

_________________________________________________________________
Have more than one Hotmail account? Link them together to easily access both
 http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/186394591/direct/01/
Subject: County Cork botany book
From: Richard Mills <birdpics AT NEWSGUY.COM>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 09:31:40 +0000
For those who enjoy combining their birding with 
other aspects of nature, there is a superb new book just out:
The wildlfowers of Cork City and County, by Tony 
O'Mahony, published by the Collins Press at €29.99

Richard.
Subject: Re: Glaucous winged Gull
From: Eugene ARCHER <wagtail AT FREE.FR>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 11:02:54 +0100
Hi Derek,

What are the features that make people suspect it might be a hybrid ?

ATB,

Eugene

derek charles wrote:
> Hi Ed,
>
> firstly i would like to thank Seamus, Michael and Paul for a great days 
birding in Sligo on Saturday. 

>
> I found the bird along with Seamus on the beach at Lissadell shortly after 
lunchtime and for the next couple of hours chased it up and down among the dog 
walkers and members of the public. Seamus alerted Sligo regulars of an 
interesting gull and late afternoon we got good views of it at the bottom of 
the beach. Michael managed to get some good shots of it here. None of us had 
any experience of GWG. We had the Sibley guide and the KMO Gulls book and 
combined with what little knowledge i have and the bird in front of us the 
bird,it most resembled a 1stw GWG. Knowing the spectre of hybrids especially in 
North America we made a decision to put the news out as a possible but also 
clearly the fact that a hybrid had not been ruled out. Paul and Joe to their 
credit done just this. 

>
> By the time i arrived home Michael had kindly already circulated photos and 
the opinion is that the bird is not a pure GWG. 

>
> The debate will continue into what it is but we all agree we have never seen 
anything like it! 

>
> There are approx 1000 large gulls in the Sligo area at the moment feeding on 
an estimated 1 million stranded starfish, creating a feeding frenzy. Some gulls 
are attempting to swallow them whole, others like the mystery gull are stabbing 
at them and pulling the insides out and eating them. A 1stw Kumliens and two 
first winter Icelands are also in the area. 

>
> Nearby a Richardsons and a larger type Canada Goose are present. 
Interestingly they are inseparable. I watched the large bird sitting resting, 
the Richardsons started to feed with a group of Barnacles and it moved about 
twenty metres away, then the larger bird started to call repeatedly, the 
Richardsons turned round independently and walked back to the larger bird. The 
Little and Large show it is! 

>
>  
>
> derek
>
>  
>   
>> Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 10:45:58 +0000
>> From: vireoed AT YAHOO.CO.UK
>> Subject: Glaucous winged Gull
>> To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
>>
>> All,
>> Can anyone shed light on this Gull at Lissadell Sligo,Birdguides again had 
>> something to share this morning and after the !(notable) for our First Red 
>> flanked Bluetail this week instead of the !!!(mega) they had X(correction) 
and 

>> just now an unhappy face(negative news) for the Gull........Has the bird 
been 

>> confirmed as a Glaucous winged Gull.......? 
>> Not that I will be travelling of course...........!
>>     
>  		 	   		  
> _________________________________________________________________
> Have more than one Hotmail account? Link them together to easily access both
>  http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/186394591/direct/01/
>
>
Subject: Re: Glaucous winged Gull
From: derek charles <derek.charles AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 08:32:38 +0000
Hi Ed,

firstly i would like to thank Seamus, Michael and Paul for a great days birding 
in Sligo on Saturday. 


I found the bird along with Seamus on the beach at Lissadell shortly after 
lunchtime and for the next couple of hours chased it up and down among the dog 
walkers and members of the public. Seamus alerted Sligo regulars of an 
interesting gull and late afternoon we got good views of it at the bottom of 
the beach. Michael managed to get some good shots of it here. None of us had 
any experience of GWG. We had the Sibley guide and the KMO Gulls book and 
combined with what little knowledge i have and the bird in front of us the 
bird,it most resembled a 1stw GWG. Knowing the spectre of hybrids especially in 
North America we made a decision to put the news out as a possible but also 
clearly the fact that a hybrid had not been ruled out. Paul and Joe to their 
credit done just this. 


By the time i arrived home Michael had kindly already circulated photos and the 
opinion is that the bird is not a pure GWG. 


The debate will continue into what it is but we all agree we have never seen 
anything like it! 


There are approx 1000 large gulls in the Sligo area at the moment feeding on an 
estimated 1 million stranded starfish, creating a feeding frenzy. Some gulls 
are attempting to swallow them whole, others like the mystery gull are stabbing 
at them and pulling the insides out and eating them. A 1stw Kumliens and two 
first winter Icelands are also in the area. 


Nearby a Richardsons and a larger type Canada Goose are present. Interestingly 
they are inseparable. I watched the large bird sitting resting, the Richardsons 
started to feed with a group of Barnacles and it moved about twenty metres 
away, then the larger bird started to call repeatedly, the Richardsons turned 
round independently and walked back to the larger bird. The Little and Large 
show it is! 


 

derek

 
> Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 10:45:58 +0000
> From: vireoed AT YAHOO.CO.UK
> Subject: Glaucous winged Gull
> To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
> 
> All,
> Can anyone shed light on this Gull at Lissadell Sligo,Birdguides again had 
> something to share this morning and after the !(notable) for our First Red 
> flanked Bluetail this week instead of the !!!(mega) they had X(correction) 
and 

> just now an unhappy face(negative news) for the Gull........Has the bird been 

> confirmed as a Glaucous winged Gull.......? 
> Not that I will be travelling of course...........!
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Have more than one Hotmail account? Link them together to easily access both
 http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/186394591/direct/01/
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
From: derek charles <derek.charles AT HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 08:12:17 +0000
Hello Mike,

I seen the Nimmos bird six or seven times over two winters (it was a 2ndw and 
3rdw) and the Sligo bird is completely different structurally. It also had a 
very unique way of walking very up right, different to any Herring or Glaucous 
i have seen. It was a very aggressive bird which i know counts for nothing but 
it completely dominated all the Herrings present and even had a go at a Great 
Black Backed an encounter which it lost! 


The Nimmos bird was much smaller and was often reported by un-suspecting 
visitors as a Kumliens Gull. 


 

derek

 

 
> Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 20:32:26 +0000
> From: okeeffeml AT EIRCOM.NET
> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
> To: IBN-L AT LISTSERV.HEANET.IE
> 
> All,
> 
> The bird I was thinking of is featured on the March 2005 page on 
> birdsireland.com. Plumage wise very different but structurally similar I 
> think.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Mike
> 
> http://www.birdsireland.com/pages/rare_bird_news/2005/march_photos.html
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Ronan McLaughlin" 
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 8:00 PM
> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
> 
> 
> > Gentlemen,
> >
> > If anyone's interested I think I have shots of the bird that Mike is 
> > taking about, however I think its a third winter type which may or may not 
> > be of help when comparing with a first winter. If anyone wants them please 
> > drop me a line. Excellent shots Derek, and certainly an interesting bird.
> >
> > regards
> >
> > Rónán
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Mike O'Keeffe" 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 12:11 PM
> > Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
> >
> >
> >> Mícheál,
> >>
> >> Your posting made it on to the IBN alright. Only seeing the shots this 
> >> morning and they are brilliant - well done!
> >>
> >> It does appear to me rather too Herring Gull like in overall appearance, 
> >> not the compact, bulky, short winged look with that classic beady eye 
> >> positioned high and far back in the head of classic GWG. Other than the 
> >> structural impressions I have no real comments. I have no first hand 
> >> experience of those messy West Coast integrades and I find discussions re 
> >> same on ID Frontiers hard to read. Have you guys had any opinions from 
> >> the USA?
> >>
> >> There is something vaguely familiar about the bird - it reminds me of a 
> >> hybrid that was at Nimmo's some years ago. Looking at shots of supposed 
> >> integrade Glaucous-winged X Herring on the net the primaries and tertials 
> >> often appear darker in those birds so I wonder could it just be a well 
> >> marked Glaucous X Herring or a Glaucous X Great Black-backed hybrid?
> >>
> >> Nice find Derek!
> >>
> >> Regards
> >>
> >> Mike
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> From: "Mícheál Casey" 
> >> To: 
> >> Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 11:20 AM
> >> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi Edward,
> >>
> >> Expert opinions received so far are on the side of it being a hybrid, 
> >> possibly Glaucous-winged x Herring Gull.
> >>
> >> Nobody in Sligo, including the finder, Derek Charles, put the bird out as 
> >> anything other than a possible Glaucous-winged Gull.
> >>
> >> The note on Irishbirding.com summarises current opinion fairly well "1st 
> >> Winter type bird showing characteristics of a Glaucous-winged Gull. 
> >> Drumcliff Bay. Hybrid not ruled out."
> >>
> >> I posted a link to some images of the bird last night on the IBN-L, which 
> >> doesn't seem to have gone through to the list.
> >>
> >> Trying again here - images are posted at 
> >> http://www.sligobirding.com/November2009Gallery.html
> >>
> >> It is certainly a very striking looking bird, quite unlike any other gull 
> >> we have seen in Sligo. The spectacular stranding of tonnes of starfish 
> >> at Lissadell has attracted about 1,000 gulls showing up in a concentrated 
> >> area, which yesterday included 1 Kumliens Gull, a first winter 
> >> Ring-billed Gull, two Iceland Gulls and this bird.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Mícheál
> >>
> >> PS Just spotted that I accidentally sent last night's email from my new 
> >> email address which is not registered for IBN-L mail - my apologies
> >>
> >>
> >> Begin forwarded message:
> >>
> >>> From: Mícheál Casey 
> >>> Date: 14 November 2009 22:29:35 GMT
> >>> To: Irish Bird Network 
> >>> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous-winged Gull Sligo
> >>>
> >>> Hi John, and all,
> >>>
> >>> Photos of the bird in question are now up on the November Gallery page 
> >>> of the BirdWatch Sligo website.
> >>>
> >>> See http://www.sligobirding.com/November2009Gallery.html
> >>>
> >>> Comments welcome.
> >>>
> >>> Go on, we can take it!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 15 Nov 2009, at 10:45, Edward Carty wrote:
> >>
> >>> All,
> >>> Can anyone shed light on this Gull at Lissadell Sligo,Birdguides 
> >>> again had
> >>> something to share this morning and after the !(notable) for our First 
> >>> Red
> >>> flanked Bluetail this week instead of the !!!(mega) they had 
> >>> X(correction) and
> >>> just now an unhappy face(negative news) for the Gull........Has the bird 
> >>> been
> >>> confirmed as a Glaucous winged Gull.......?
> >>> Not that I will be travelling of course...........!
> >>
> > 
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Have more than one Hotmail account? Link them together to easily access both
 http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/186394591/direct/01/
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
From: Mícheál Casey <michealjcasey AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 20:56:23 +0000
Hi Ronan,

I have just finished putting a few more flight shots on the Sligo website as 
well as some images received from Derek Charles and Declan Skehan. 


Because of the number of images, I have given the bird its own page at:

http://www.sligobirding.com/PossibleGWGullLissadell141109.html

By the way the page name does not represent any argument with the hybrid theory 
- I just couldn't think of a better title! 


Thanks for the link to images of the 2005 bird, will have a look.

Mícheál


On 15 Nov 2009, at 20:00, Ronan McLaughlin wrote:

> Gentlemen,
> 
> If anyone's interested I think I have shots of the bird that Mike is taking 
about, however I think its a third winter type which may or may not be of help 
when comparing with a first winter. If anyone wants them please drop me a line. 
Excellent shots Derek, and certainly an interesting bird. 

> 
> regards
> 
> Rónán
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike O'Keeffe" 
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 12:11 PM
> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
> 
> 
>> Mícheál,
>> 
>> Your posting made it on to the IBN alright. Only seeing the shots this 
morning and they are brilliant - well done! 

>> 
>> It does appear to me rather too Herring Gull like in overall appearance, not 
the compact, bulky, short winged look with that classic beady eye positioned 
high and far back in the head of classic GWG. Other than the structural 
impressions I have no real comments. I have no first hand experience of those 
messy West Coast integrades and I find discussions re same on ID Frontiers hard 
to read. Have you guys had any opinions from the USA? 

>> 
>> There is something vaguely familiar about the bird - it reminds me of a 
hybrid that was at Nimmo's some years ago. Looking at shots of supposed 
integrade Glaucous-winged X Herring on the net the primaries and tertials often 
appear darker in those birds so I wonder could it just be a well marked 
Glaucous X Herring or a Glaucous X Great Black-backed hybrid? 

>> 
>> Nice find Derek!
>> 
>> Regards
>> 
>> Mike
>> 
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mícheál Casey" 
>> To: 
>> Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 11:20 AM
>> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
>> 
>> 
>> Hi Edward,
>> 
>> Expert opinions received so far are on the side of it being a hybrid, 
possibly Glaucous-winged x Herring Gull. 

>> 
>> Nobody in Sligo, including the finder, Derek Charles, put the bird out as 
anything other than a possible Glaucous-winged Gull. 

>> 
>> The note on Irishbirding.com summarises current opinion fairly well "1st 
Winter type bird showing characteristics of a Glaucous-winged Gull. Drumcliff 
Bay. Hybrid not ruled out." 

>> 
>> I posted a link to some images of the bird last night on the IBN-L, which 
doesn't seem to have gone through to the list. 

>> 
>> Trying again here - images are posted at 
http://www.sligobirding.com/November2009Gallery.html 

>> 
>> It is certainly a very striking looking bird, quite unlike any other gull we 
have seen in Sligo. The spectacular stranding of tonnes of starfish at 
Lissadell has attracted about 1,000 gulls showing up in a concentrated area, 
which yesterday included 1 Kumliens Gull, a first winter Ring-billed Gull, two 
Iceland Gulls and this bird. 

>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Mícheál
>> 
>> PS Just spotted that I accidentally sent last night's email from my new 
email address which is not registered for IBN-L mail - my apologies 

>> 
>> 
>> Begin forwarded message:
>> 
>>> From: Mícheál Casey 
>>> Date: 14 November 2009 22:29:35 GMT
>>> To: Irish Bird Network 
>>> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous-winged Gull Sligo
>>> 
>>> Hi John, and all,
>>> 
>>> Photos of the bird in question are now up on the November Gallery page of 
the BirdWatch Sligo website. 

>>> 
>>> See http://www.sligobirding.com/November2009Gallery.html
>>> 
>>> Comments welcome.
>>> 
>>> Go on, we can take it!
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 15 Nov 2009, at 10:45, Edward Carty wrote:
>> 
>>> All,
>>> Can anyone shed light on this Gull at Lissadell Sligo,Birdguides again had 

>>> something to share this morning and after the !(notable) for our First Red
>>> flanked Bluetail this week instead of the !!!(mega) they had X(correction) 
and 

>>> just now an unhappy face(negative news) for the Gull........Has the bird 
been 

>>> confirmed as a Glaucous winged Gull.......?
>>> Not that I will be travelling of course...........!
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
From: Mike O'Keeffe <okeeffeml AT EIRCOM.NET>
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 20:32:26 -0000
All,

The bird I was thinking of is featured on the March 2005 page on 
birdsireland.com.  Plumage wise very different but structurally similar I 
think.

Regards

Mike

http://www.birdsireland.com/pages/rare_bird_news/2005/march_photos.html

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ronan McLaughlin" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 8:00 PM
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out


> Gentlemen,
>
> If anyone's interested I think I have shots of the bird that Mike is 
> taking about, however I think its a third winter type which may or may not 
> be of help when comparing with a first winter. If anyone wants them please 
> drop me a line. Excellent shots Derek, and certainly an interesting bird.
>
> regards
>
> Rónán
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mike O'Keeffe" 
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 12:11 PM
> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
>
>
>> Mícheál,
>>
>> Your posting made it on to the IBN alright.  Only seeing the shots this 
>> morning and they are brilliant - well done!
>>
>> It does appear to me rather too Herring Gull like in overall appearance, 
>> not the compact, bulky, short winged look with that classic beady eye 
>> positioned high and far back in the head of classic GWG.  Other than the 
>> structural impressions I have no real comments.  I have no first hand 
>> experience of those messy West Coast integrades and I find discussions re 
>> same on ID Frontiers hard to read.  Have you guys had any opinions from 
>> the USA?
>>
>> There is something vaguely familiar about the bird - it reminds me of a 
>> hybrid that was at Nimmo's some years ago.  Looking at shots of supposed 
>> integrade Glaucous-winged X Herring on the net the primaries and tertials 
>> often appear darker in those birds so  I wonder could it just be a well 
>> marked Glaucous X Herring or a Glaucous X Great Black-backed hybrid?
>>
>> Nice find Derek!
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Mícheál Casey" 
>> To: 
>> Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 11:20 AM
>> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
>>
>>
>> Hi Edward,
>>
>> Expert opinions received so far are on the side of it being a hybrid, 
>> possibly Glaucous-winged x Herring Gull.
>>
>> Nobody in Sligo, including the finder, Derek Charles, put the bird out as 
>> anything other than a possible Glaucous-winged Gull.
>>
>> The note on Irishbirding.com summarises current opinion fairly well "1st 
>> Winter type bird showing characteristics of a Glaucous-winged Gull. 
>> Drumcliff Bay. Hybrid not ruled out."
>>
>> I posted a link to some images of the bird last night on the IBN-L, which 
>> doesn't seem to have gone through to the list.
>>
>> Trying again here - images are posted at 
>> http://www.sligobirding.com/November2009Gallery.html
>>
>> It is certainly a very striking looking bird, quite unlike any other gull 
>> we have seen in Sligo.  The spectacular stranding of tonnes of starfish 
>> at Lissadell has attracted about 1,000 gulls showing up in a concentrated 
>> area, which yesterday included 1 Kumliens Gull, a first winter 
>> Ring-billed Gull, two Iceland Gulls and this bird.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Mícheál
>>
>> PS  Just spotted that I accidentally sent last night's email from my new 
>> email address which is not registered for IBN-L mail - my apologies
>>
>>
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>
>>> From: Mícheál Casey 
>>> Date: 14 November 2009 22:29:35 GMT
>>> To: Irish Bird Network 
>>> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous-winged Gull Sligo
>>>
>>> Hi John, and all,
>>>
>>> Photos of the bird in question are now up on the November Gallery page 
>>> of the BirdWatch Sligo website.
>>>
>>> See http://www.sligobirding.com/November2009Gallery.html
>>>
>>> Comments welcome.
>>>
>>> Go on, we can take it!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 15 Nov 2009, at 10:45, Edward Carty wrote:
>>
>>> All,
>>>     Can anyone shed light on this Gull at Lissadell Sligo,Birdguides 
>>> again had
>>> something to share this morning and after the !(notable) for our First 
>>> Red
>>> flanked Bluetail this week instead of the !!!(mega) they had 
>>> X(correction) and
>>> just now an unhappy face(negative news) for the Gull........Has the bird 
>>> been
>>> confirmed as a Glaucous winged Gull.......?
>>> Not that I will be travelling of course...........!
>>
>
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
From: Ronan McLaughlin <rpmclaughlin AT EIRCOM.NET>
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 20:00:18 -0000
Gentlemen,

If anyone's interested I think I have shots of the bird that Mike is taking 
about, however I think its a third winter type which may or may not be of 
help when comparing with a first winter. If anyone wants them please drop me 
a line. Excellent shots Derek, and certainly an interesting bird.

regards

Rónán

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike O'Keeffe" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out


> Mícheál,
>
> Your posting made it on to the IBN alright.  Only seeing the shots this 
> morning and they are brilliant - well done!
>
> It does appear to me rather too Herring Gull like in overall appearance, 
> not the compact, bulky, short winged look with that classic beady eye 
> positioned high and far back in the head of classic GWG.  Other than the 
> structural impressions I have no real comments.  I have no first hand 
> experience of those messy West Coast integrades and I find discussions re 
> same on ID Frontiers hard to read.  Have you guys had any opinions from 
> the USA?
>
> There is something vaguely familiar about the bird - it reminds me of a 
> hybrid that was at Nimmo's some years ago.  Looking at shots of supposed 
> integrade Glaucous-winged X Herring on the net the primaries and tertials 
> often appear darker in those birds so  I wonder could it just be a well 
> marked Glaucous X Herring or a Glaucous X Great Black-backed hybrid?
>
> Nice find Derek!
>
> Regards
>
> Mike
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mícheál Casey" 
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 11:20 AM
> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
>
>
> Hi Edward,
>
> Expert opinions received so far are on the side of it being a hybrid, 
> possibly Glaucous-winged x Herring Gull.
>
> Nobody in Sligo, including the finder, Derek Charles, put the bird out as 
> anything other than a possible Glaucous-winged Gull.
>
> The note on Irishbirding.com summarises current opinion fairly well "1st 
> Winter type bird showing characteristics of a Glaucous-winged Gull. 
> Drumcliff Bay. Hybrid not ruled out."
>
> I posted a link to some images of the bird last night on the IBN-L, which 
> doesn't seem to have gone through to the list.
>
> Trying again here - images are posted at 
> http://www.sligobirding.com/November2009Gallery.html
>
> It is certainly a very striking looking bird, quite unlike any other gull 
> we have seen in Sligo.  The spectacular stranding of tonnes of starfish at 
> Lissadell has attracted about 1,000 gulls showing up in a concentrated 
> area, which yesterday included 1 Kumliens Gull, a first winter Ring-billed 
> Gull, two Iceland Gulls and this bird.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mícheál
>
> PS  Just spotted that I accidentally sent last night's email from my new 
> email address which is not registered for IBN-L mail - my apologies
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
>> From: Mícheál Casey 
>> Date: 14 November 2009 22:29:35 GMT
>> To: Irish Bird Network 
>> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous-winged Gull Sligo
>>
>> Hi John, and all,
>>
>> Photos of the bird in question are now up on the November Gallery page of 
>> the BirdWatch Sligo website.
>>
>> See http://www.sligobirding.com/November2009Gallery.html
>>
>> Comments welcome.
>>
>> Go on, we can take it!
>
>
>
>
>
> On 15 Nov 2009, at 10:45, Edward Carty wrote:
>
>> All,
>>     Can anyone shed light on this Gull at Lissadell Sligo,Birdguides 
>> again had
>> something to share this morning and after the !(notable) for our First 
>> Red
>> flanked Bluetail this week instead of the !!!(mega) they had 
>> X(correction) and
>> just now an unhappy face(negative news) for the Gull........Has the bird 
>> been
>> confirmed as a Glaucous winged Gull.......?
>> Not that I will be travelling of course...........!
>
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
From: Mike O'Keeffe <okeeffeml AT EIRCOM.NET>
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 12:11:03 -0000
Mícheál,

Your posting made it on to the IBN alright.  Only seeing the shots this 
morning and they are brilliant - well done!

It does appear to me rather too Herring Gull like in overall appearance, not 
the compact, bulky, short winged look with that classic beady eye positioned 
high and far back in the head of classic GWG.  Other than the structural 
impressions I have no real comments.  I have no first hand experience of 
those messy West Coast integrades and I find discussions re same on ID 
Frontiers hard to read.  Have you guys had any opinions from the USA?

There is something vaguely familiar about the bird - it reminds me of a 
hybrid that was at Nimmo's some years ago.  Looking at shots of supposed 
integrade Glaucous-winged X Herring on the net the primaries and tertials 
often appear darker in those birds so  I wonder could it just be a well 
marked Glaucous X Herring or a Glaucous X Great Black-backed hybrid?

Nice find Derek!

Regards

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mícheál Casey" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 11:20 AM
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out


Hi Edward,

Expert opinions received so far are on the side of it being a hybrid, 
possibly Glaucous-winged x Herring Gull.

Nobody in Sligo, including the finder, Derek Charles, put the bird out as 
anything other than a possible Glaucous-winged Gull.

The note on Irishbirding.com summarises current opinion fairly well "1st 
Winter type bird showing characteristics of a Glaucous-winged Gull. 
Drumcliff Bay. Hybrid not ruled out."

I posted a link to some images of the bird last night on the IBN-L, which 
doesn't seem to have gone through to the list.

Trying again here - images are posted at 
http://www.sligobirding.com/November2009Gallery.html

It is certainly a very striking looking bird, quite unlike any other gull we 
have seen in Sligo.  The spectacular stranding of tonnes of starfish at 
Lissadell has attracted about 1,000 gulls showing up in a concentrated area, 
which yesterday included 1 Kumliens Gull, a first winter Ring-billed Gull, 
two Iceland Gulls and this bird.

Regards,

Mícheál

PS  Just spotted that I accidentally sent last night's email from my new 
email address which is not registered for IBN-L mail - my apologies


Begin forwarded message:

> From: Mícheál Casey 
> Date: 14 November 2009 22:29:35 GMT
> To: Irish Bird Network 
> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous-winged Gull Sligo
>
> Hi John, and all,
>
> Photos of the bird in question are now up on the November Gallery page of 
> the BirdWatch Sligo website.
>
> See http://www.sligobirding.com/November2009Gallery.html
>
> Comments welcome.
>
> Go on, we can take it!





On 15 Nov 2009, at 10:45, Edward Carty wrote:

> All,
>     Can anyone shed light on this Gull at Lissadell Sligo,Birdguides again 
> had
> something to share this morning and after the !(notable) for our First Red
> flanked Bluetail this week instead of the !!!(mega) they had X(correction) 
> and
> just now an unhappy face(negative news) for the Gull........Has the bird 
> been
> confirmed as a Glaucous winged Gull.......?
> Not that I will be travelling of course...........!
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous winged Gull - hybrid not ruled out
From: Mícheál Casey <michealjcasey AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 11:20:41 +0000
Hi Edward,

Expert opinions received so far are on the side of it being a hybrid, possibly 
Glaucous-winged x Herring Gull. 


Nobody in Sligo, including the finder, Derek Charles, put the bird out as 
anything other than a possible Glaucous-winged Gull. 


The note on Irishbirding.com summarises current opinion fairly well "1st Winter 
type bird showing characteristics of a Glaucous-winged Gull. Drumcliff Bay. 
Hybrid not ruled out." 


I posted a link to some images of the bird last night on the IBN-L, which 
doesn't seem to have gone through to the list. 


Trying again here - images are posted at 
http://www.sligobirding.com/November2009Gallery.html 


It is certainly a very striking looking bird, quite unlike any other gull we 
have seen in Sligo. The spectacular stranding of tonnes of starfish at 
Lissadell has attracted about 1,000 gulls showing up in a concentrated area, 
which yesterday included 1 Kumliens Gull, a first winter Ring-billed Gull, two 
Iceland Gulls and this bird. 


Regards,

Mícheál

PS Just spotted that I accidentally sent last night's email from my new email 
address which is not registered for IBN-L mail - my apologies 



Begin forwarded message:

> From: Mícheál Casey 
> Date: 14 November 2009 22:29:35 GMT
> To: Irish Bird Network 
> Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous-winged Gull Sligo
> 
> Hi John, and all,
> 
> Photos of the bird in question are now up on the November Gallery page of the 
BirdWatch Sligo website. 

> 
> See http://www.sligobirding.com/November2009Gallery.html
> 
> Comments welcome.
> 
> Go on, we can take it!





On 15 Nov 2009, at 10:45, Edward Carty wrote:

> All,
> Can anyone shed light on this Gull at Lissadell Sligo,Birdguides again had 

> something to share this morning and after the !(notable) for our First Red 
> flanked Bluetail this week instead of the !!!(mega) they had X(correction) 
and 

> just now an unhappy face(negative news) for the Gull........Has the bird been 

> confirmed as a Glaucous winged Gull.......?  
> Not that I will be travelling of course...........!
Subject: Glaucous winged Gull
From: Edward Carty <vireoed AT YAHOO.CO.UK>
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 10:45:58 +0000
All,
 Can anyone shed light on this Gull at Lissadell Sligo,Birdguides again had 

something to share this morning and after the !(notable) for our First Red 
flanked Bluetail this week instead of the !!!(mega) they had X(correction) and 
just now an unhappy face(negative news) for the Gull........Has the bird been 
confirmed as a Glaucous winged Gull.......?  
Not that I will be travelling of course...........!
Subject: Bookmark this.
From: Seamus Feeney <Flyfisher1 AT EIRCOM.NET>
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 23:43:19 -0000
Mícheál.

This looks like a good site. http://www.pbase.com/jpkln/gulls

Séamus.
Subject: Re: POSSIBLE Glaucous-winged Gull Sligo
From: Mícheál Casey <michealjcasey AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 22:29:35 +0000
Hi John, and all,

Photos of the bird in question are now up on the November Gallery page of the 
BirdWatch Sligo website. 


See http://www.sligobirding.com/November2009Gallery.html

Comments welcome.

Go on, we can take it!

Mícheál
On 14 Nov 2009, at 18:10, John Coveney Birds wrote:

> I've just heard that a possible 1st winter Glaucous-winged Gull was seen at
> Sligo this (Sat) afternoon. Photos and video were obtained and are on their
> way to assorted gurus for opinions on whether it this species or a hybrid.
> 
> Sunrise 08.01, 224 km from Dublin, 200 from Belfast, 33 from Cork. Low tide
> at 10.17. Weather good.
> 
> 
> 
> John C.
> 
> 
> 
> Email: photos AT ecoveney.ie. Photos: www.flickr.com/photos/johncoveneyphotos/.
> 
> 
> Mobile: 00 353(0) 87 276 5158. Address: Shankill, Dublin 18, Ireland.
> 
>
Subject: Re: Not pacific diver
From: Paul & Norma Moore <Paulmoore01 AT EIRCOM.NET>
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 10:20:35 -0800
Co Galway, possible photographed 12th Jan. And if this poss Glauc Winged 
Gull in Sligo today is confirmed what chance on it lingering?
    Paul
PS I see Lynchy has added his record shots of the Bluetail to birdguides,
presumably out of sympathy for everyone dipping.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Shorten" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, November 14, 2009 8:37 AM
Subject: Not pacific diver


> Paul,
> Subject line above so not to worry people, but like Lee I missed  pacific 
> diver when? Where?
>
> Mark
>
>
Subject: POSSIBLE Glaucous-winged Gull Sligo
From: John Coveney Birds <birds AT ECOVENEY.IE>
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 18:10:05 -0000
I've just heard that a possible 1st winter Glaucous-winged Gull was seen at
Sligo this (Sat) afternoon. Photos and video were obtained and are on their
way to assorted gurus for opinions on whether it this species or a hybrid.

Sunrise 08.01, 224 km from Dublin, 200 from Belfast, 33 from Cork. Low tide
at 10.17. Weather good.

 

John C.

 

Email: photos AT ecoveney.ie. Photos: www.flickr.com/photos/johncoveneyphotos/.


Mobile: 00 353(0) 87 276 5158. Address: Shankill, Dublin 18, Ireland.
Subject: Re: 2nd hand scopes
From: Evan Salholm <evan.salholm AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 16:58:38 +0000
Hi Eric,
I received your e-mail while I was in the States.Just came back.
I may have two Kowa scopes which I could donate.One may need a bit of
work.Do you know anyone who repairs them?
I'm gonna get a new scope.Do you have any ideas re the Swarovski/Kowa
arguments?
I guess you've been reasonably busy.Very glad about Ireland's first RFB.
Best wishes,

Evan

Most impressive thing in North America :c.6000+ Snow Geese densely packed in
3 fields near Reifel,Vancouver,
B.C. Also pleased to see American Tree Sparrow(difficult to see outside
winter-time) & Golden-crowned Sparrow.

2009/10/3 irishbirdnews 

> Hi all
> As some of you know I run evening classes on birdwatching and many of the
> people who attend are keen to purchase good scopes and bins. With this in
> mind, I am asking if anyone has good quality 2nd hand scopes that they might
> consider selling, please do let me know. There are lots of people in my
> classes who I think would be delighted with the opportunity to get one. So,
> if you've a scope for sale, please contact me directly and I will let my
> gang know.
>
> Thanks
> Eric
>
Subject: Not pacific diver
From: Mark Shorten <mshorten AT GMAIL.COM>
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 16:37:46 +0000
Paul,
Subject line above so not to worry people, but like Lee I missed  
pacific diver when? Where?

Mark
Subject: Re: Dursey (or Devil's Island).
From: SUBSCRIBE IBN-L Lee G R Evans <LGREUK400 AT AOL.COM>
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 13:44:30 EST
Paul
 
It's very much like that over here I am afraid (and by the way where was  
there an Irish Pacific Diver - must have passed me by)
 
Brown-headed Cowbird (5 birds only one half-twitchable on Fair Isle if you  
had £690 to spend)
African Royal Tern (two relatively brief appearances and only twitchable by 
 those living within 160 miles)
Tufted Puffin (just 7 lucky observers on-site at the time)
Madeiran Storm Petrel (three shouts and I manage to miss one shortly after  
I walked away)
Blackburnian Warbler (conveniently suppressed)
Blue-cheeked Bee-eater (3 passes with the last in East Kent lasting just  
long enough for me to miss it by a minute)
Taiga Flycatcher (discovered at dusk in West Cornwall with no further  sign)
 
And add to that
 
Atlantic Yellow-nosed Albatross (two localities - two observers, despite  
spending a whole day on a tiny gravel pit)
 
Mind you, I can't complain, I have had 7 new birds this year
 
Lee